"Weight of Combat Gear Is Taking Toll." - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - "Weight of Combat Gear Is Taking Toll." (Page 2 of 4)

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:01:48 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
There was a British Officer who suggested that a soldier's load be limited to only 40 pounds without a waiver. I'm interested in that idea, although it means that there will be a lot of waivers for mortars, missiles and machineguns. 35 pounds of PPE is too much, though, especially when there is lighter stuff on the civilian market.

As for pack size, how big do you think it should be? I have a nice 3,000 CI pack and it carriers quite a bit of stuff, although I don't think it would hold three days of gear.

You would not be very well protected with current armor that way.

A possible solution in the works.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:04:06 AM EDT

[#2]

Yet another reason to be glad I didn't go.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:04:37 AM EDT

[#3]

Right...Light Infantry. Hump 70 plus pounds.

All this high tech and we can't figure out a good way to dress a combat troop.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:07:59 AM EDT

[#4]

I carry a 50 lb pack when hunting and I can't IMAGINE having to fight in a pack /load out that weighs 10-30 lbs more than that. Unreal.

kudos to you guys who do this day in and day out.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:08:41 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:

In fact my platoon sgt threatened me with off the books punishment if I went back to the doctor.

My PLTSGT was the type of "unless you are missing a limb dont go to the doctor". I got chewed out for 10 minutes in front of the platoon for that...Im just being cynical but I lost any faith in the medical people or my unit from wanting to do anything, and I wasnt the only one in that boat.

Sounds like a call to the IG or to the Chaplin is in order. I know you probably don't want to be seen as the "one of those guys", and seen as "not a team player", but your CoC is wrong for trying to deny you medical care. I bought into the whole "sick call is for wussies" and "profiles are for shitbags" for all of two weeks. When I got hurt, I realized that it would benefit both myself and the rest of my squad/shop if I was healthy and able to actually do my job.

I thought it was pretty funny when the commander told everyone that "if you were on profile, you needed to do everything you could to get off of it"...

The reasons you outlined above are exactly why I was so happy when they discharged me for my screwed up knees. I got tired of hearing "well I've got bad knees too, devil dog, you just gotta man up and deal with it!"

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:10:57 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I carry a 50 lb pack when hunting and I can't IMAGINE having to fight in a pack /load out that weighs 10-30 lbs more than that. Unreal.

kudos to you guys who do this day in and day out.

This. My Philmont pack when I was a Boy Scout was just under 50 lbs. I can't imagine extended duty with 100 lbs.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:15:59 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Ive had moderate back issues since the middle of my 2nd deployment. Started with various parts going numb- mostly the top of my left hand. Started getting lots of headaches, and my back/neck would pop like popcorn if I moved. Never been able to pop a joint before this. My back started going out on my 1-2 times every couple of weeks to where I had trouble walking.

I weighed my PPE with all the mandatory stuff we had to have and it was 64lbs + 25lbs in a combat pack + 9lbs for the M16A4). We were in gear for a MINIMUM of 10hrs a day most of it standing up.

After getting back I went to see a doctor (did not go to a doctor the entire deployment- had our medic give me a shot in the ass of benedryl ONCE when I got a headache so bad I was throwing up, and the ben made me pass out). The MOST I ever got in the way of medical treatment was an examination, a couple bottles of tylenol, and being told it was my fault. In fact my platoon sgt threatened me with off the books punishment if I went back to the doctor.

About 2 years later it really hasnt gotten any better, and I still get random numb spots. The last numb spot was on the back right side of my neck going from the middle and extending to the back of my ear. Lasted 2 weeks. I still get constanct headaches, I sound like popcorn especially early in the morning, et cetera.

Not a sob story as Im used to dealing with it now but Im glad they are just now finally figuring out all this gear is injuring people. They could have listened to the people who actually have to wear it for a living YEARS ago, and figured it out. Adding everything up you are 80-100lbs for a full combat load. How anyone thinks anyone can move and shoot in that junk effectively is beyond me, and then wearing it half the time is going to cause lots of injuries. I would have gladly signed a release allowing me to downgrade that shit a few notches...

Fuck your Plt Sgt. You guys doing the grunt work need to take care of yourselves first.

You are entitled to keep yourself healthy. And it also will make doing your VA claims easier as you have the documentation. I know a lot of guys will say that you are a pussy, but you are entitled to compensation for injuries that cause long term problems. I wish I had been more poractive with my injuries when I was on AD.

Just remember, your Plt Sgt, and all or your budddies will not be there to help you when you get out, so it's up to you to take care of you.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:26:37 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
You would not be very well protected with current armor that way.

It isn't about protection. It is about balancing risks.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:30:37 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
I'm already broke the fuck off, and I'm getting ready to deploy in two days.

I have bilateral plantar faciaitis, scoliosis in my spine, and other injuries accounting to the job. Granted, I'm not a pup anymore, but damn... I thought I would've lasted longer than this. This might be my only infantry-based deployment.

I had the same thing,

See a foot doctor and demand orthotics.

General Practitioners and bean counters will tell you there is no difference between them and Dr. Scholls, but they are FOS.

Mine was pretty bad, but a couple months of wearing properly made medical orthotics cleared it up.

I had to go to a civilian doctor on leave to get them, but they are worth it (but I guess you already know how bad it hurts).

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:34:29 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Ive had moderate back issues since the middle of my 2nd deployment. Started with various parts going numb- mostly the top of my left hand. Started getting lots of headaches, and my back/neck would pop like popcorn if I moved. Never been able to pop a joint before this. My back started going out on my 1-2 times every couple of weeks to where I had trouble walking.

I weighed my PPE with all the mandatory stuff we had to have and it was 64lbs + 25lbs in a combat pack + 9lbs for the M16A4). We were in gear for a MINIMUM of 10hrs a day most of it standing up.

After getting back I went to see a doctor (did not go to a doctor the entire deployment- had our medic give me a shot in the ass of benedryl ONCE when I got a headache so bad I was throwing up, and the ben made me pass out). The MOST I ever got in the way of medical treatment was an examination, a couple bottles of tylenol, and being told it was my fault. In fact my platoon sgt threatened me with off the books punishment if I went back to the doctor.

About 2 years later it really hasnt gotten any better, and I still get random numb spots. The last numb spot was on the back right side of my neck going from the middle and extending to the back of my ear. Lasted 2 weeks. I still get constanct headaches, I sound like popcorn especially early in the morning, et cetera.

Not a sob story as Im used to dealing with it now but Im glad they are just now finally figuring out all this gear is injuring people. They could have listened to the people who actually have to wear it for a living YEARS ago, and figured it out. Adding everything up you are 80-100lbs for a full combat load. How anyone thinks anyone can move and shoot in that junk effectively is beyond me, and then wearing it half the time is going to cause lots of injuries. I would have gladly signed a release allowing me to downgrade that shit a few notches...

Fuck your Plt Sgt. You guys doing the grunt work need to take care of yourselves first.

You are entitled to keep yourself healthy. And it also will make doing your VA claims easier as you have the documentation. I know a lot of guys will say that you are a pussy, but you are entitled to compensation for injuries that cause long term problems. I wish I had been more poractive with my injuries when I was on AD.

Just remember, your Plt Sgt, and all or your budddies will not be there to help you when you get out, so it's up to you to take care of you.

That went all the way up to my BNCDR, and nothing was done....Before my company deployed, and I went on rear-d to get out, my 1SG alone had 7 active IG complaints which is another "story".

I do agree though, and I still kept going to the clinic even if they didn't want to do anything either. Again not a sob story about any of this as Im long since past all that, and deal with it on my own with stretching and working out the muscles. I have gotten better but not much, and once I get out and back home Im going to use my private insurance to get myself checked out properly. This was a major consideration in me getting out. I dont have a problem getting banged up but I dont want to be treated like a profile ranger and shitbag when I at least want to get a diagnosis. I never did deploy with this unit but from what I was told that PLTSGT sat on his ass in the AC the entire time and made life hell for his soldiers.

If I get VA bennies from it all the better but Im not expecting it. Id just like to get "healed" so I dont have to take OTC meds 3-5 days a week as they are not good long term, and Ive probably messed myself up from that, too. Im waiting for the age 45 liver transplant...lol

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:35:06 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:

In fact my platoon sgt threatened me with off the books punishment if I went back to the doctor.

My PLTSGT was the type of "unless you are missing a limb dont go to the doctor". I got chewed out for 10 minutes in front of the platoon for that...Im just being cynical but I lost any faith in the medical people or my unit from wanting to do anything, and I wasnt the only one in that boat.

Sounds like a call to the IG or to the Chaplin is in order. I know you probably don't want to be seen as the "one of those guys", and seen as "not a team player", but your CoC is wrong for trying to deny you medical care. I bought into the whole "sick call is for wussies" and "profiles are for shitbags" for all of two weeks. When I got hurt, I realized that it would benefit both myself and the rest of my squad/shop if I was healthy and able to actually do my job.

I thought it was pretty funny when the commander told everyone that "if you were on profile, you needed to do everything you could to get off of it"...

The reasons you outlined above are exactly why I was so happy when they discharged me for my screwed up knees. I got tired of hearing "well I've got bad knees too, devil dog, you just gotta man up and deal with it!"

You are lucky. On my first enlistment, the doc who did my reenlistment physical wouldn't sign off fit OR unfit. He told me to just EAS and go to the VA. I said fuck that. Got another doc to say I was GTG. Second reenlistment, only 3 years offered becaus I had trouble running (gee, I wonder why?). Third reenlistment, first doc said I was unfit. Career Jammers said I need to get a med board, so the flight surgeon got the Group FS to say I was fit. Got denied reenlistment. Submitted my package to the VA upon EAS (June 22, 2002) had a VA rating the second week of July 2002.

Now I fighting with the VA about the shoulder problems that started during my last enlistment. Didn't get enough documentation, so it's an uphill battle.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:35:47 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You would not be very well protected with current armor that way.

It isn't about protection. It is about balancing risks.

THIS is the concept that's completely lost on the brass that's so far removed from the actual fighting - they are trying solely to reduce losses on paper, even if it means shelling out billions of dollars on crap that literally impedes combat effectiveness.

Strange as it is, Curtis LeMay had it conceptually correct - taking reduced losses while failing to accomplish the mission is neither efficient nor effective, and just wastes resources.

The real failure is in teaching junior officers and staff NCO's that the onus is upon them to determine what is actually needed to accomplish the missions in their areas, and what kit components can be sacrificed (it's a sacrifice to leave some gear behind) in order to further the actual combat effectiveness of the unit as a whole.

It's our military's triumph of hope over experience to even think that sending heavily burdened infantry up an down the terrain of Afghanistan or through the urban centres of Iraq better positions us to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy...

The problems with unit leaders never understanding this concept are just a symptom of this systematic failure... and speaking of systematic failure, the VA is well.... enough said.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:38:18 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Ive had moderate back issues since the middle of my 2nd deployment. Started with various parts going numb- mostly the top of my left hand. Started getting lots of headaches, and my back/neck would pop like popcorn if I moved. Never been able to pop a joint before this. My back started going out on my 1-2 times every couple of weeks to where I had trouble walking.

I weighed my PPE with all the mandatory stuff we had to have and it was 64lbs + 25lbs in a combat pack + 9lbs for the M16A4). We were in gear for a MINIMUM of 10hrs a day most of it standing up.

After getting back I went to see a doctor (did not go to a doctor the entire deployment- had our medic give me a shot in the ass of benedryl ONCE when I got a headache so bad I was throwing up, and the ben made me pass out). The MOST I ever got in the way of medical treatment was an examination, a couple bottles of tylenol, and being told it was my fault. In fact my platoon sgt threatened me with off the books punishment if I went back to the doctor.

About 2 years later it really hasnt gotten any better, and I still get random numb spots. The last numb spot was on the back right side of my neck going from the middle and extending to the back of my ear. Lasted 2 weeks. I still get constanct headaches, I sound like popcorn especially early in the morning, et cetera.

Not a sob story as Im used to dealing with it now but Im glad they are just now finally figuring out all this gear is injuring people. They could have listened to the people who actually have to wear it for a living YEARS ago, and figured it out. Adding everything up you are 80-100lbs for a full combat load. How anyone thinks anyone can move and shoot in that junk effectively is beyond me, and then wearing it half the time is going to cause lots of injuries. I would have gladly signed a release allowing me to downgrade that shit a few notches...

LISTEN TO ME.

Go to the doc. Get seen by orthopedics. GET EVERYTHING DOCUMENTED. Go to all the follow-ups, even if they can't do shit for the chronic pain.

If you don't, when you tell your story at your ETS physical the PA is going to look at your empty medical record and shrug. Then you'll have to fight it out with the VA for years.

If your chain of command gives you shit, sit down quietly with your platoon sergeant and point out to him that generations of disabled vets 'sucked it up' on active duty and hid their injuries, etc. to 'stay with the mission / troops / kump status', etc. and then had to struggle for years to get the VA to recognize their injuries - if they ever did. Have a DAV service officer talk to them. The horror stories are legend - but most are "self-inflicted wounds".

And this goes for everyone else in uniform too.

I kept jumping - I kept rucking. I paid for it, but I got it documented. 30% VA; 20% CRSC. And I'm in pain every day.

+Infinity

Don't worry if they call you a "sick-call commando"
They would do the same shit to me and say "what do you want me to do?", to which I would reply "just note it in my medical record".
If it is not documented, there is nothing they can do.
Also, My MGySGt told me: Make sure you burn off at least one extra copy of your medical record before you EAS.
It's really easy for them to lose important sections, or even the whole thing. Plus, they may ask for more info, and it's easier if YOU have it for back-up.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:42:23 AM EDT

[#14]

From my experience in the Marines, as from what I've read, I think the grunts should only have to carry a max of 50lbs, everything included, no matter what. Spread the weight around, cut what you have to, bring mules, whatever, but no more than 50lbs per man. Any more than that and you're only wearing the grunt down physically and mentally. Combat load should be almost half that..

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:42:30 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You would not be very well protected with current armor that way.

It isn't about protection. It is about balancing risks.

Thats why I mentioned the SUV vs. light car thing. An SUV offers a lot more protection but you are more likely to get into an accident in one because of the poor handling characteristics.

Some protection is good but it gets out of hand when you start strapping plates and ballistic pannels all over everything like a God damned up-armored HMMWV on two legs, and then have a unit SOP that demands you strap even more shit all over you to where you can barely move let alone effectively shoot, move, and communicate.

Overall I think the higher up leaders are so afraid of sustaining casualities they would rather have soldiers wearing 80lbs of gear than be able to fight effectively. An OER that says we sustained 0 casualties sounds a lot better than one saying we had 4 wounded and 1 killed in action. Injuries caused by excessive gear won't be on any OER.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:44:40 AM EDT

[#16]

Originally Posted By Belmont31R
That went all the way up to my BNCDR, and nothing was done....Before my company deployed, and I went on rear-d to get out, my 1SG alone had 7 active IG complaints which is another "story".

I do agree though, and I still kept going to the clinic even if they didn't want to do anything either. Again not a sob story about any of this as Im long since past all that, and deal with it on my own with stretching and working out the muscles. I have gotten better but not much, and once I get out and back home Im going to use my private insurance to get myself checked out properly. This was a major consideration in me getting out. I dont have a problem getting banged up but I dont want to be treated like a profile ranger and shitbag when I at least want to get a diagnosis. I never did deploy with this unit but from what I was told that PLTSGT sat on his ass in the AC the entire time and made life hell for his soldiers.

[red]If I get VA bennies from it all the better but Im not expecting it. Id just like to get "healed" so I dont have to take OTC meds 3-5 days a week as they are not good long term, and Ive probably messed myself up from that, too. Im waiting for the age 45 liver transplant...lol[red]

You are ENTITLED to those 'bennies'. Don't let anyone else tell you different. Part of the total compensation package for your service is access to the VA and monetary reimbursment( either lump sum, or long term payments, depending on the level of disability) if you are injured while on AD.

I am at 60% right now, and fighting to get my shoulders and sleep apnea rated.

Get with a Veteran's group like the DAV to assist you.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:44:44 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
From my experience in the Marines, as from what I've read, I think the grunts should only have to carry a max of 50lbs, everything included, no matter what. Spread the weight around, cut what you have to, bring mules, whatever, but no more than 50lbs per man. Any more than that and you're only wearing the grunt down physically and mentally. Combat load should be almost half that..

Well just a vest with all the plates and panels of today weighs at least that much....(25lbs)...Just the basic DragonSkin is 35lbs.

There is no way around it. You either lose the protection or have the weight...Until some uber ballistic protection is invented that is it...

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:47:30 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Right...Light Infantry. Hump 70 plus pounds.

All this high tech and we can't figure out a good way to dress a combat troop.

It's a modern issue too. Up until the 80's, pretty much every grunt, going back to the Romans, never carried more than 50-60lbs of shit total.

Shit, the British, French, and Germans all did studies on load weights before WWI and all came to the conclusion that, no matter how physically fit someone was, after you put more than 60lbs on them, their mental and physical performance deterioriated rapidly.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:48:43 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
"I'm issued 80 pounds of ultralight gear." ~ Anonymous Sgt, 3rd SFG.

It's always been a problem...and probably always will be. Somebody updates a piece of gear with weight savings, and then somebody else issues another piece of gear that weighs more than the savings. No good solutions to it yet.

There would be good solutions of the CoC feet were held to the fire. That ass-chewing in front of the platoon by the NCOIC for going on sick call should have been an IG issue followed by at least a field-grade Article 15. Along with the officer who allowed it to happen –– that idiot should be reduced to butter bar and made Permanent Latrine Officer.

Come on people, you're supposed to be professionals. Time you started acting like it, and time you stopped bending over and taking it up the ass for HOOWAH bullshit. There's getting the job done, and then there's stupid. This is stupid.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:49:37 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
From my experience in the Marines, as from what I've read, I think the grunts should only have to carry a max of 50lbs, everything included, no matter what. Spread the weight around, cut what you have to, bring mules, whatever, but no more than 50lbs per man. Any more than that and you're only wearing the grunt down physically and mentally. Combat load should be almost half that..

Well just a vest with all the plates and panels of today weighs at least that much....(25lbs)...Just the basic DragonSkin is 35lbs.

There is no way around it. You either lose the protection or have the weight...Until some uber ballistic protection is invented that is it...

Fuck the armor then. I'm not a big guy so I know that if I slop all that weight onto me, I'll never be able to run faster than a light jog. At least without the armor I'd be able to move fast.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:51:02 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
"I'm issued 80 pounds of ultralight gear." ~ Anonymous Sgt, 3rd SFG.

It's always been a problem...and probably always will be. Somebody updates a piece of gear with weight savings, and then somebody else issues another piece of gear that weighs more than the savings. No good solutions to it yet.

There would be good solutions of the CoC feet were held to the fire. That ass-chewing in front of the platoon by the NCOIC for going on sick call should have been an IG issue followed by at least a field-grade Article 15. Along with the officer who allowed it to happen –– that idiot should be reduced to butter bar and made Permanent Latrine Officer.

Come on people, you're supposed to be professionals. Time you started acting like it, and time you stopped bending over and taking it up the ass for HOOWAH bullshit. There's getting the job done, and then there's stupid. This is stupid.

I said the same thing nearly every day in the Marines.

No one listened or even understood my point..

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:53:05 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Originally Posted By Belmont31R
That went all the way up to my BNCDR, and nothing was done....Before my company deployed, and I went on rear-d to get out, my 1SG alone had 7 active IG complaints which is another "story".

I do agree though, and I still kept going to the clinic even if they didn't want to do anything either. Again not a sob story about any of this as Im long since past all that, and deal with it on my own with stretching and working out the muscles. I have gotten better but not much, and once I get out and back home Im going to use my private insurance to get myself checked out properly. This was a major consideration in me getting out. I dont have a problem getting banged up but I dont want to be treated like a profile ranger and shitbag when I at least want to get a diagnosis. I never did deploy with this unit but from what I was told that PLTSGT sat on his ass in the AC the entire time and made life hell for his soldiers.

[red]If I get VA bennies from it all the better but Im not expecting it. Id just like to get "healed" so I dont have to take OTC meds 3-5 days a week as they are not good long term, and Ive probably messed myself up from that, too. Im waiting for the age 45 liver transplant...lol[red]

You are ENTITLED to those 'bennies'. Don't let anyone else tell you different. Part of the total compensation package for your service is access to the VA and monetary reimbursment( either lump sum, or long term payments, depending on the level of disability) if you are injured while on AD.

I am at 60% right now, and fighting to get my shoulders and sleep apnea rated.

Get with a Veteran's group like the DAV to assist you.

Oh I will be. I just put in to get my GI Bill going so I can hopefully start school this fall.

Posted: 2/1/2009 11:53:45 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
We really need those exoskeleton suits, or gundams

If you can figure out a way to power them, you've got it made.

Posted: 2/1/2009 12:04:42 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
"I'm issued 80 pounds of ultralight gear." ~ Anonymous Sgt, 3rd SFG.

It's always been a problem...and probably always will be. Somebody updates a piece of gear with weight savings, and then somebody else issues another piece of gear that weighs more than the savings. No good solutions to it yet.

There would be good solutions of the CoC feet were held to the fire. That ass-chewing in front of the platoon by the NCOIC for going on sick call should have been an IG issue followed by at least a field-grade Article 15. Along with the officer who allowed it to happen –– that idiot should be reduced to butter bar and made Permanent Latrine Officer.

Come on people, you're supposed to be professionals. Time you started acting like it, and time you stopped bending over and taking it up the ass for HOOWAH bullshit. There's getting the job done, and then there's stupid. This is stupid.

I said the same thing nearly every day in the Marines.

No one listened or even understood my point..

Not to turn this into a bitch fest (more than it already is anyways

) IMO a lot of this has to do with higher leaders not wanting to sustain casualties at ANY cost, and the simple fact that these same people mandating the use of all this junk do not have to wear it, and if they do its probably for a quick photo op and then it comes off.

I can almost 100% guarentee you if a commander at the company level let his troops downgrade their PPE, and one of them sustained an injury or death that the downgraded gear could have prevented, that commander is going to be in a world of shit. Even a BN commander would be in a place he doesn't want to be. So they come out with unit SOP's that mandate the wearing of all this junk as a get out of jail free card in case someone below them takes it upon themself to not wear something, and gets hurt or killed.

At least they got rid of that damned kevlar helmet that would block your vision when laying prone. The MICH was the single best improvement to gear I saw from 2003-present. A modern armor carrier like a CIRAS (without a bunch of ballistic additions) would be another huge step in the right direction. All this weight is exacerbated by the fact it sights high(er) up on the body and causes people to become top heavy. Sorta like the further out on the weapon you add stuff the more it feels like it weighs.

Posted: 2/1/2009 12:10:57 PM EDT

[#25]

210 without gear 370 with at one point. I roll much lighter now. Spine now has an addition five degrees of curvature than last year.
2010 I'm done with this career, i will miss it.

28 years old and putting my shoes on in the morning is a project, still don't regret a minute of it though. The new Armor looks like it sits on the body much better than the old so that may help some..

Only thing that pisses me the fuck off is moving up in rank is a bitch when your PT is sucking ass. I'm lucky to be walking let alone running you would think they would throw me a bone!

Posted: 2/1/2009 12:20:25 PM EDT

[#26]

Pre-deployment idea I had that might have some sort of an effect:

Would it help (or be possible?) to rig up two strings of 550 cord from the ceiling of a HMMWV interior and attatch two straps of velcro in such a way that it would hold the weight of the vest while sitting in the vehicle for hours, but still break away simply by getting out of the truck?

Posted: 2/1/2009 12:27:21 PM EDT

[#27]

just FYI...a medium IOTV with all add-on panels (upper arm, deltoid, groin, neck) and rifle plates (front/back/side ESAPI––18 lbs) weighs 24 lbs. a large ACH/MICH is 3.3 lbs

Posted: 2/1/2009 12:36:32 PM EDT

[#28]

You are going to have to convince COs to have a back bone, if someone dies and they aren't wearing PPE, stand by for the Generals to freak the fuck out and fire someone. The mothers of America have been convinced wars shouldn't mean dead Americans, so we are force (ordered) to wear tons of protection and ride around in rolling pill boxes.

Posted: 2/1/2009 12:40:15 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Pre-deployment idea I had that might have some sort of an effect:

Would it help (or be possible?) to rig up two strings of 550 cord from the ceiling of a HMMWV interior and attatch two straps of velcro in such a way that it would hold the weight of the vest while sitting in the vehicle for hours, but still break away simply by getting out of the truck?

Sitting down isnt so much the issue as is standing up and moving around. I was standing on my feet in full kit for 10+ hours a day for months without a break.

Better gear, and reduced load is the way to go....it doesnt matter how strong or fit a person is. When you have 60lbs of weght on your torso you are going to run into problems. Maybe not so much for the guys with crow magnum characteristics and retard strength but for us normal people that is a ton of weight to be humping around on a daily basis.

Posted: 2/1/2009 12:56:39 PM EDT

[#30]

Oh I bet it is taking a toll. My knees always hurt liek crazy after a road march. I can't imagine what it is like with a combat load.

Posted: 2/1/2009 1:19:08 PM EDT

[#31]

I have plantar faciaitis as well with bone spurs front and back of the heel. Stretching my calves every day makes a 90% difference. Thank you podiatrist.

Posted: 2/1/2009 1:26:54 PM EDT

[#32]

This story is as old as the Roman Army. http://www.amazon.com/Soldiers-Load-Mobility-Nation/dp/0686310012/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233527068&sr=8-1

Like previous posters said, COs need to lighten the loads. Mobility is life.

Posted: 2/1/2009 1:30:28 PM EDT

[#33]

If I were over there I would want everything that said "armor" strapped to me. But if I'm going to have to more afterward, I guess I would have to pick and choose. It would be very tough. I hate to reference Unintended Consquences in every post (not really) but isn't it true that the way they rate the effectiveness of armor is a piss poor way of doing it and in fact lighter armor will still hold up to an acceptable level?

Posted: 2/1/2009 2:05:05 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Something funny is happening here. Every time I post about how to make a weapon lighter, sometimes by a much as ten pounds, there is an 11B who comes in and talks about how weight doesn't bother real men. Perhaps that kind of guy is a rarity.

Granted... but is it really the weapon that is the bulk of the weight on the soldier's back? I don't think it is.

Posted: 2/1/2009 2:22:45 PM EDT

[#35]

Try jumping from an aircraft with all that shit on.

Posted: 2/1/2009 2:23:46 PM EDT

[#36]

No the weapon isn't the heaviest part, but it is an easy place to lose weight and it is also often held for long lengths of time.

Posted: 2/1/2009 2:24:11 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Try jumping from an aircraft with all that shit on.

A friend of mine was on jump status until he was 44. He draws 80%.

Posted: 2/1/2009 2:35:45 PM EDT

[#38]

Last summer you know what the two times the CO 24 MEU got lit up by everyone in the chain of command? The first was when the famous photo came out of Sgt B almost getting shot over the wall and the second was of a photo of a mortar crew shooting. You know why there was allot of problems? The Marines were not wearing their PPE, so everyone to include the SecNav were asking question about why they weren't wearing PPE.

Posted: 2/1/2009 2:36:06 PM EDT

[#39]

I am 52 and worked construction most of my life, I am just now starting to feel the effects. Lower spine fragmenting, knees hurt all the time, left foot goes numb, neck pops, back pops. Takes 10 minutes just to get out of bed.

I feel for you guys, being young and Fkt up .

Posted: 2/1/2009 2:41:39 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
How to Win the War in Al Anbar.
CPT Travis Patriquin.

interesting

He was a damn smart man...even for an officer. Losing him was a terrible blow to the US military. One could say he had a large part in templating how the "Surge" was conducted.

Ive been saying we carry too much crap the majority of the time from the begining. Asside from overuse injuries, it is seriously counter productive to mission effectiveness. Officers and NCO's at the Company level need to be making the call for what protective posture we take for each mission, not a 3 star general who doesnt even wear his own body armor when he goes out the gate. While a mounted patrol MIGHT warrants full kit with all the attachments(groin, throat protector), hitting a house(where you need to be light and fast) doesnt. Flexibiltity is paramount in this war and we've ignored that is some aspects.

I had a good chain of command. Sure, back at home when we'd go out to the field sometimes we would road march there or back with alot of weight. But once we were overseas and outside the wire, the MOST we would carry would be an assault pack when we'd go on foot patrols. Otherwise, we carried as little weight as possible.

Also I believe personally that all that protective gear like those stupid fucking shoulder body armor and other things as well actually could lead to MORE casualties because of how prohibitive it can be to movement and being able to effective aim and fire your weapon. Some fucking idiots at the Pentagon trying to cover their own ass think the more body armor, the better. Which is NOT true.

"Light Infantry" is a big fucking oxymoron in the US military.

And unfortunately, it's true. Although no one will come out and say it, but the culture in the Infantry and such is that you are a lazy shitbag for getting put on profile and are probably trying to get out of work. Though, if you earned the respect of your team members, then ya, they will not think that way. However, I used to think just like that. Hence, the entire time I was in the military, I only went to Sick call ONCE and that was because my NCO made me.

Posted: 2/1/2009 2:44:37 PM EDT

[#41]

oooopps double tap

Posted: 2/1/2009 3:25:10 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Right...Light Infantry. Hump 70 plus pounds.

All this high tech and we can't figure out a good way to dress a combat troop.

It's a modern issue too. Up until the 80's, pretty much every grunt, going back to the Romans, never carried more than 50-60lbs of shit total.

Shit, the British, French, and Germans all did studies on load weights before WWI and all came to the conclusion that, no matter how physically fit someone was, after you put more than 60lbs on them, their mental and physical performance deterioriated rapidly.

I dont know who's bright idea tha 80-100lbs of shit was. Late 70's-early 80's our load was maybe 50lb, and we had some say-so of what went into our packs, and on the gear belt and suspenders.

Posted: 2/1/2009 3:35:17 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
I dont know who's bright idea tha 80-100lbs of shit was. Late 70's-early 80's our load was maybe 50lb, and we had some say-so of what went into our packs, and on the gear belt and suspenders.

Part of the increase in weight is body armor, back when I first came in we wore the old PASGT vest and helmet only. Now we have the MTV and 4 plates, which is allot heavier.

Also, back back prior to the war, you never got to carry the weight of ammo you do today, 13 mags for your rifle and 4 for you pistol, a couple of frags, smokes and pop up, pen flares, maybe a satchel charge in addition to your NVGs, and PPE, really adds up and I know years ago we hardly ever trained with that sort of weight.

Posted: 2/1/2009 3:36:38 PM EDT

[#44]

IIRC, I rigged up to jump once with 153 lbs. tied up in the H-harness. Weather caused us to cancel while I was standing in the door, but we still had to hump that shit all night. Ridiculous.

Posted: 2/1/2009 3:37:26 PM EDT

[#45]

I have a fucked up back from 3 tours of Afghanistan fun.

Posted: 2/1/2009 3:40:10 PM EDT

[#46]

This generation of guys will be known for their back problems in the same manner that the WW2 generation was known for its hearing problems.

Posted: 2/1/2009 3:48:51 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
There was a British Officer who suggested that a soldier's load be limited to only 40 pounds without a waiver. I'm interested in that idea, although it means that there will be a lot of waivers for mortars, missiles and machineguns. 35 pounds of PPE is too much, though, especially when there is lighter stuff on the civilian market.

As for pack size, how big do you think it should be? I have a nice 3,000 CI pack and it carriers quite a bit of stuff, although I don't think it would hold three days of gear.

40 pounds is an ideal combat weight. Hard to achieve these days, especially with armor.

Posted: 2/1/2009 3:57:16 PM EDT

[#48]

Damn dupe!

Posted: 2/1/2009 3:57:17 PM EDT

[#49]

Back before I permanently screwed myself up by falling off of a fifty foot cliff, my maximum load for long range winter hiking was fifty-five (55) pounds. Although troops can count on re-supply and rest periods, I can't imagine being effective at any more than 55-65 pounds. Of course, I never had to deal with 115 degree temperatures and body armor, either. I can't even imagine what these kids go through nowdays. Keep them fast and light.

Posted: 2/1/2009 4:07:05 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Right...Light Infantry. Hump 70 plus pounds.

All this high tech and we can't figure out a good way to dress a combat troop.

It's a modern issue too. Up until the 80's, pretty much every grunt, going back to the Romans, never carried more than 50-60lbs of shit total.

Shit, the British, French, and Germans all did studies on load weights before WWI and all came to the conclusion that, no matter how physically fit someone was, after you put more than 60lbs on them, their mental and physical performance deterioriated rapidly.

I dont know who's bright idea tha 80-100lbs of shit was. Late 70's-early 80's our load was maybe 50lb, and we had some say-so of what went into our packs, and on the gear belt and suspenders.

PASGT had alot to do with it, but I think what really did it were the ALICE packs. Issue a big ruck to the grunts and it's going to get filled..

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - "Weight of Combat Gear Is Taking Toll." (Page 2 of 4)

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