Israel would do more for us if we let them.  Our gov. is too worried about what Arabs think to accept anything from Israel.

Israel is the only true friend and a democratic nation, like the USA, in the Middle East.

Shok

Well that just about says it all.

You really do agree with the Palistinian terrorists.  Stop bitching about funding, and start sending money to Arafat.

The war on terrorism has been going on for 40+ years, it just wasn't declared.  Israel has done the most fighting up to this point, and the US has been funding this fight.  Welcome to reality.  There IS a right and wrong.  Stop funding Israel, and terrorists will overrun their nation and then come after you!

Man,

Alot of you guys need to chill.

Why not?

Most US aid to Israel is spent on weapons.  If Israel didn't need to spend so much on defense, it wouldn't need so much US aid, either.

I don't want to send money to either Israel or the Palestinians.  I don't care if they kill each other in ever increasing quantities.  I just don't want to pay for it.

Both Arafat and Sharon are nothing but murderers - human garbage.

We don't pay the Israelis to kill Palestinians. That's got to be the most fucking retarded thought to have been spewn in this thread. If we did, this conflict would have been over long ago.

This is one American who won't be boycotting Israel or demanding any reduction in the amount of aid we send them. I'm quite comfortable with the $50 my family sends them each year. The Israeli's seem to make better use of it than our own social programs do.

".....most fucking retarded......"

Another first !

(Then why do we pay Israel $5 Billion per year ?)

Is whatever amount we give to Israel contingent on how many Palestinians they have killed in the previous year? Are you privy to information that the rest of us are not?

I didn't think so on either count.

You noted in an earlier post that:  "Most US aid to Israel is spent on weapons."  What do you think Israel does with those weapons ?  Perhaps kill Palestinians ?

Why should we pay Israel or the Palestinians anything ?

Let them kill each other to their hearts content.  I just don't want to pay for it.

You really are a one note samba.

What do you think that any nation funds its military for?  Perhaps to kill the enemies?  Maybe even to discourage an attack?

Had you been alive in the forties would you have been upset that we were providing military support in Europe, China and Africa?  After all, Hitler just wanted to kill the Jews.  Let the Jews and the rest of the Europeans kill each other.  I don't care.

That has been shown to be an utter ridiculous opinion now, but why do so many people have that opinion about the current conflict?  Perhaps removal of blinders is in order.

You should stop sending money to Terminex to get rid of the termites.  Let the house fight it's own battles.  Geez.

DOB=5/30/40

If I understand your theory correctly I should bill Israel for my Termenix contract.

Correct.  My country, the United States, first.

Let me try ONE LAST attempt at common ground.

I would even go along with ONE LAST care package of 3 BILLION in the form of weapons if they would just get it over with already.

Christ go to Defcon 1 and get it over with once and for all so we can STOP sending welfare checks to rich people.

I feel sorry for innocents who die anywhere. Whether they be a Israeli high school girl who just wanted a slice of fucking pizza before she banged her boyfreind or a Palestinian kid who really, really didn't want to get shot crossing the street. Or anyone else who did NOTHING to create the problem at hand.

Since protecting the innocent is impossible given the disproportinate amount of sadistic assholes in the immediate vicinity I wish they just get it over with once and for all. Innocents will die, but better a short definitive MAJOR conflict than another 1,000 years of "I kill yours cause you killed mine."

SA,
there are roughly 300,000 illegal Israeli settlers in the Palestinian territories.

Last I heard the United States was to pay $50 Billion for taking care of moving the illegals and various other expenses related to peace.

Maybe it is the U.S. that can't afford peace.

And WE are paying for that because?

I don't know that answer.

This was a bit of on FOX where a guest was talking about the present conflict and mentioned Israeli expenses, etc., and the FOX reporter said something to the effect that she thought the United States had agreed to a $50 billion fund to take care of those expenses.  Included was the relocation of the 300,000 illegal Israeli settlers.

At times I believe I get more news from casual comments than from the scheduled news topics.

And as a 1 year old, what were your opinions about why we should/should not get involved in WW2?

No, you don't understand my theory correctly.
The depth of your misunderstandings doesn't stop there.

Who is second?  For there to be a first, there must be a second.

Face it, you think the Palistinians are being victimized by the Israelis.  You have made that clear from all of your posts.

Just drop this "Funding" thing.  It is a red herring.  We fund everybody and everything.  You only complain about Israel.  We pay farmers not to farm.  We send trillions to people who don't work.  We buy kiddies condoms in Junior High.  We place millions of US acres off limits to anyone.  We forgive international debts all the time.  We rebuilt Germany and Japan.  We gave up the Panama Canal.  We ignore millions of illegal immigrants in our own backyard.  We tax imports that are going to our own populations.  We steal more than 1/2 of peoples incomes through taxation.  We burn through billions of M855 a year because it is there.  We spend millions studying the migratory patterns of African Swallows.  We just promised 1.6 million to each 9/11 family.  We sue legal US corporations out of business.  We spend millions a year servicing and operating Air Force One.  We are dumping billions into the Osprey VTOL craft.  Need I go on?

Israel does serve a strategic purpose in that area.  It needs money.  We give it money, for our mutual benefit.

Then read about 'YOUR' fucking friends:

(June 1967 2:37 PM)
"Stand by for torpedo attack, starboard side, McGonagle shouted frantically into the announcing system.  THE ISRAELIS WERE READY FOR THE KILL.  At 2:37 PM, the safety plug was pulled from a 19-inch German-made torpedo on on Motor Torpedo Boat 203.  Seconds later it sped from its launcher and took direct aim at the Liberty's NSA spaces.  Four other torpedos - more than enough to sink the largest aircraft carrier - were also launched.  Through a miracle only one struck home."

 

(5:29 P.M.)
"....the Liberty still lay smoldering, sinking, fearful of another attack, without aid and with its decks covered with the dead, the dying and the wounded."

"The hole in the Liberty's twenty-three year old skin was nearly wide enough to drive a bus through; the ship had a heavy list to starboard, most of its equipment was destroyed, thirty-two of its crew were dead (two others would later die) and two thirds of the rest wounded; its executive officer was dead; its commanding officer was badly hurt.  Despite all this, the Liberty was heroically brought back to life and slowly made her way to safer waters.  To keep the ship from sinking, the hatches to the flooded NSA spaces had been dogged down, sealing the bodies of the twenty-five Sigint specialists inside."

"To prevent anyone from escaping the badly wounded ship, the Israelis even destroyed the few remaining life rafts that were put into the water following the call to abandon ship.  "I watched with horror as the floating life rafts were riddled with holes," said Lt. Loyd Painter, in charge of the evacuation.  'NO SURVIVORS WERE PLANNED FOR THIS DAY!"  

".....what was left of the lifeboats were released overboard; these were immediately machine-gunned by the (Israeli) torpedo boats.  It was obvious no one was meant to survive this assault."

"Body of Secrets"
Bamford, James
Doubleday, 2001

It has taken me some time to type these few sentences as it has been hard to see through my tears of rage.

All these sailors killed and wounded were my shipmates.  
At this time there were only a few hundred (certainly less than one thousand) CT's in the Navy.  Over the years I operated with more than fifty and probably operated with some of the dead and/or wounded.

Shok, probably you are only simple and ignorant but hear this:  ISRAEL IS NOT MY FRIEND.

TORF, you might take a few seconds to scan my post above.

Torf not an attack but being told to NOT talk about it only makes us want to do it more to prevent supression of information. If a Democrat had the audacity to suggest you stop complaining about the 94 Crime Bill would you? I doubt it.



At least in MY case this is not true. I complain about alot of stuff. And the "we waste money on everything" observation is not excuse. Democrats pass all kinds of stupid, unconstitutional laws. Should we just accept them as well as the ones pertaining to firearms?

I'm not gonna take issue with anything else you said. Just please, don't suggest what issues we are allowed to talk about and don't tell us what laws or US policies we are allowed to protest. I will attempt to do the same.

Look, I didn't mean that we shouldn't be able to talk about it.  I have never been in favor of banning topics, gag rules, fairness doctrines, equal time, speech codes or anything like that.

I just think that this topic is given a disproportinate amount of attention, thats all.  I am not in favor of information supression.


I agree with you for the most part, I am just less critical of US aid for Israel than I am for Unconstitutional firearms laws.

If the Constitution said, "...monies allocated from the US treasury shall not be sent to foreign states..."  then my beef would be right up there with yours.

It does say, "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Therefore I have a differing level of interest for these two issues.  It is smart to have Israel as an ally.  It is Constitutional to allow people to bear arms.

I hope you understand my point.  I wish to fight with fellow AR15.commers no longer.  See ya at the BRC!

Respectfully, you may want to talk to Libof76 about that. In fact our current aid to Israel is a direct violation of the Constitution. But it is his area so I will let him have the floor.

Ok, very sad.  I don't really want to play 'dueling stories', because I don't play banjo too well.

If this happened in 2002 I would view our relationship very differently than in 1967.  Nation's status change over the years.

I'm told that Japan is now very friendly with us, but in 1945 we smoked 2 of their major cities.

I would like to hear more about that, as I have never heard of anything like that, except in objections from Libertarians.  But hey, they object to anti-prostitution laws too!  [:O]

For me, history did not begin on January 1, 2002.

Honestly I don't know HOW Lib has avoided this topic. And he really is the guy whose got the actual facts, not theory or conjecture, on this specific issue.

He brought it up repeatedly on Erics Israel topics. Do a search and when you find the ones that are 5 or six pages long it will be there. I'd look for it but I'm supposed to be cleaning my house and haven't got much done so far.

I doubt that you have any stories with which to duel.

Has anyone 'told' you that the United States was at war with Japan ?

sub-sailor,
We (America) spend money on Israel to support their right to exist, not to kill Palestinians.  

If the Pals would stop killing Israelis, they'd stop dying.  Besides, you've said repeatedly you don't care who dies over there, just who's footing the bill.  Obviously you have a lot of personal feelings about Israel, and I'm sorry for your losses.  But would it hurt any less if those people who died were killed by a nation we had declared war on?

Alot of Americans WANT our government to do just what they do.  You, and some others here, do not.  If it's not about who's killing who, and only about the money, I'd think you'd be livid about the other foreign aid we give to countries that could NEVER offer us anything tangible in return.  WTF do we get from $7.5 billion USAID budget spent in aid to Africa, E. Europe, the former USSR, and so on??

Steyr,

You say Israel's aid forms 40% of the foreign aid budget... seems high, got support for that figure?  

Israel gets $3 billion, the fed. budget was $1,800 billion.  Hwo could we have a foreign aid budget of only $7.5 billion?  The USAID budget alone was $7.5 billion for 2001.  Any idea what we give to other countries, many of whom were former enemies or caused American deaths?

Lastly, I'll ask again:  why the special animosity for Israel?  Do you think American Jews have too much of a voice in this country's government and political system?

Sure do, even went and found the link this time.

[url]http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/israeli.elections/stories/israel.us/[/url]

[b]At $3 billion a year, Israel receives more U.S. aid than any other country, and 40 percent of the U.S. foreign aid budget.

American Jews contribute heavily to Israel, and some contributions are tax-deductible, an indirect subsidy by the U.S. government.

Some American Jews have dual citizenship and vote in Israeli elections.
A free-trade agreement allows Israeli products to enter the United States without a tariff. [/b]

Even more...

[b]Noting that Israel has one one-thousandth of the world's population and the 16th highest per capita income in the world, critics question the aid -- and surprisingly, Israel agrees.

Former prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu asked in 1996 that the U.S. begin cutting back, and for 1999 the amount has been reduced to $2.94 billion. [/b]

Which is how we got to our current figure of $3 Billion a year, much less than they used to get and currently 40% of the budget.



See above. And Israel has killed Americans.



Again, see above. You probably won't believe it but I really don't even have animosity towards the average Israeli citizen. My objections are the ones I have repeatedly stated. If you subtitute "Country X" for "Israel" in the above equation I would have the same problem with Country X.

And even many American and Israeli Jews agree with me. Do they hate Israel?
[img]http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/israeli.elections/stories/israel.us/ultra.orthodox.jpg[/img]

DS,
those who kill Americans are not my friends.
But let's move past that.

I believe Israel gets about $5 billion per year in total.  SA uses the figure of $3 billion as do most people but there are also so-called loans that are really gifts as the loans are designed never to be repaid.  (Believe it or not E.T. HUN provided the link to the government web page a few weeks ago.)

Please ask yourself what does Israel do for the United States ??  Of what strategic value is Israel in the region ?  In my opinion Israel does nothing for the U.S. and Turkey/Arabia are the countries strategic to U.S. interest in the middle east.

Now Israel is an occupying force in the Palestinian Territories.  The Palestinians don't charge the U.S. enough money to be able to buy tanks, helicopters and F-16's so they use suicide bombers.

Forget the response you're likely to get from an honest answer but please ask yourself what would you do if your Territories were occupied and you had pathetically little with which to fight ??

Thanks for the link, Steyr- I don't claim to understand it, but this report here says we spend $22-23 billion on "foreign operations", a much larger amount than we've discussed.

I will cede the point that Israel gets an awful lot of money from us.  While you see no benefit, others must, and I support it.  Israel has a right to exist, needs our support to do that.  They are our ally, and we support them out of our committment to helping our friends.

I never said "No Benefit." That would be ridiculous. I said not enough to justify the cost. Not even close. And sure others support it for a variety of reasons whether they be ethnic, political or religious. Just don't think my tax dollars should be used that way.



Never said they didn't.



No they don't.

"the 16th highest per capita income in the world"

They can afford to buy from us whatever they need. And if the Arabs get roudy they can nuke them back to the stone age.



But they really aren't our ally. I could bring up examples like Jonathan Pollard or the USS LIberty incident,

[url]http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/pollard.html[/url]

Here's how the Jews feel about it...

[url]http://www.jonathanpollard.org/unity.htm[/url]

The Liberty Incident...

[url]http://www.ussliberty.org/[/url]

And Israels position continues to be that these men are lying. Even the Jewish crew member.

but it really doesn't matter. A ally is someone who does something for mutual benefit. Not because you pay them. Despite our cash Israel does very little.

The relationship is parasitic.

Just for the record, within the past several months, Israel has requested that we STOP ALL NON MILITARY ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS to them within the next couple of years, cause they don't need them any more.  Note, this is at Israel's request.  So, anything we give the Israelis in aid from now on will be for military equipment only, and the vast bulk of that money will be spent right here in the USA for American equipment.

Now if the rest of the world would just stop kissing Arab asses for oil, and (in the case of France, Germany, and the UK) because they're scared to death of what the Muslims that control their streets and crime gangs would do if they opted for justice instead of expediency, maybe we could get peace in the region instead of war, and the Israelis wouldn't need the military aid either.

My fervent hope is that once we take Saddam out in Iraq, and if the decent people of Palestine can get themselves a government that's truly interested in getting along with Israel,  we just might not have to give Israel any more aid at all. Wouldn't that be nice-----for everybody.

Hmmmm, sounds good but makes too much sense. It'll never happen.

Israel not only has the right to exist but the right to live in relative peace.  But do the Palestinians not have the right to a country of their own and the right to exist without Israeli occupation ?

Israel has no friends and their only ally in the entire world community of nations is the U.S.

Israel cannot exist without handouts from the U.S. taxpayer.
There will be no peace as Israel cannot afford peace.  (I don't believe Arafat can afford peace either.)

Leave us depart from proper decorum and face the facts as to why we support Israel.  
We support Israel because of the influence of American and American/Israeli Jews.  This influence comes from money and media.  If a politician wants to be elected or reelected he/she must cater to about 4%(?) of the U.S. voters.