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Posted: 10/20/2002 1:03:06 PM EDT
[#1]
Now as perhaps never before do we as gun owners need to rally support behind gun rights organizations. Support with both money and time spent calling and writing each of our members of Congress.
NRA,GOA, JPFO or whatever... DO SOMETHING! Don't just sit on your ass and worry. Or worse sit on your ass and complain that every position an organization maintains may not agree completely with your own. That would be terribly short-sighted. With elections coming in three weeks NOW is the window of opportunity. Please don't come crying the second week of November if the 1994 Ban is now an assured thing for another decade. That being said the NRA is the Big Dog in the fight. I'll do my work in conjunction with the Big Dog cause he's got the best chance to win. And that means voting for a Democrat in my local State Senate race. The NRA mailed a postcard last week in support of the Democrat incumbent. And although I'm loathe to vote against any Republican once again the NRA is correct. I know the Democrat to support gun rights and I know the Republican to be a fence-sitter on gun rights. Your money, your time, your call. I know what I'm going to do. And do it now. |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 1:29:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: All that aside, it still doesn't address the idea that SCOTUS is influenced in one way or another by public opinion. I still say that it is naive to think otherwise. Unfortunately Hmmm, I think that they are not influenced by public opinion. But it is entirely possible that public opinion may have some basis in fact and could possibly be supported by some existing idea. You are assigning a direct cause to their decisions. I am just stating that it could be that public conclusions stated by non-judges may just happen to agree with what judges state in their own writings, but I do firmly believe that their own writings are drawing on some deeper understanding of the law and interpretation of the law. For instance in our own endeavors as supporters of the 2nd Amend. We speak the second Amend word for word. We think it is an individual liberty and say so. While the Justice who speaks the same scentence has probably read volumes of thinking on the same subject and perhaps has even added to the existing body of knowledge and not only can he speak it word for word he also has an idea perhaps a very very very long list of reasons why that interpretation is in the best interest of mankind. Something most people do not hold and have not taken the time to form. Just a thought. It may seem like the Judge has been swayed, but it could just be agreement between those with the camera and those with the pen and perhaps the two reached the same conclusion through very different paths. You raise some very good points. I agree that ~50 percent of the public opinion will intersect with SCOTUS decisions, as a general rule. However, does this prove that the SCOTUS is unbiased in determining which cases will be heard in front of the court? I find it odd that the current Justices of SCOTUS decided not to hear the Emerson case. Didn't you find the timing of that decision odd? Disregarding the importance of a SCOTUS hearing of the Emerson case to gunowners, what did the liberal or the conservative justices have to lose with that decision? The liberals in the country are thrilled that the 2nd amendment can still be interpreted as "foggy", and the conservatives can rest assured that a DOJ that is "friendly" to them is acting in their best interest by asking the court to not hear the case. Neither side lost much (if any) political capital, except with politically active gunowners. And we're a dying breed. Did the NRA have some huge outcry that I happened to miss? My point, Ben, is that I don't believe that SCOTUS, or any federal circuit court for that matter, is entirely insulated from the effects of politics, and therefore of public opinion. Much as we would like to think otherwise, I lost my idealism when Clarence Thomas came within a pubic hair of not being appointed. |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 2:13:32 PM EDT
[#3]
My point, Ben, is that I don't believe that SCOTUS, or any federal circuit court for that matter, is entirely insulated from the effects of politics, and therefore of public opinion. No they are not insulated from the effects by any means. As this effect is of prime importance. Then I guess that the real disagreement then may be exactly how the Judges are effected by public opinion. Surely they must look at the results and current goings on of laws and the effects of laws. So I guess they would be at the very least exposed to public opinion. That much must be true. Then it just comes down to degrees and how they let public opinion factor into their decisions or thinking of the application of the law. I take your point. Ben |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 4:44:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Yeah, that's it.
Let's argue amongst ourselves as to what our "gun-rights" really are, and who "best" represents us. Yeah, that'll do it. I'm sure the anti-gunners are quivering in fear right now. Here's a novel idea: why don't we try to get together and be a part of an organization (read-NRA) that actually has some clout in Washington, rather than bicker with each other? Aren't we in this altogether, or are some of us members of the D.U.? Don't like the leadership of the NRA?, join as a 5 year or life-member and vote to change it. In the meantime, you have nothing to say. Take some of that anger and indignation you've got and direct it towards the Dems, you, know: Schumer, Feinstein, Boxer, and Waxman, where it can do some good. Remember the quote....(assualt weapons) "I'd say, 'Turn 'em in Mr. and Mrs. America!" If that isn't enough to sincerely piss you off, then you're a lost cause. |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 5:13:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Ben,
I understand your point, too. I think we're probably on the same page, no matter what. Thanks for a lively discussion. [:)] |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 5:30:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Same here, thanks Yankee1911.
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Posted: 10/20/2002 5:35:52 PM EDT
[#7]
First I have to say I did not see the Debate, I do not generally listen to Schumer.
Schumer is a very skilled Street Fighter sort of speaker, there is no way one could win a debate with him. Allen Keyes would "win" but Schumer would discount any points he made, and then personally attack his "NRA" credibility. The average viewer will still believe what they want and to heck with the facts anyway. I recall years ago when Schumer was asked if he was a Lawyer (in that Campaign much was made about too many Lawyers), he said he went to Law School but did not take the Bar exam, just spent years there to learn, therefore he was not a Lawyer! I'm sure he didn't inhale either. Barrier2 |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 6:03:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Watching LaPierre v. Schumer on Meet The Press and Wayne turned in his usual pathetic performance. He is not doing us any good and needs to be replaced immediately. Agreed, I watched his pathetic performance. The NRA needs a different front man. The gun control debate is as much form as substance and I don't think Wayne's form is very convincing. |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 6:14:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Yeah, that's it. Let's argue amongst ourselves as to what our "gun-rights" really are, and who "best" represents us. Yeah, that'll do it. I'm sure the anti-gunners are quivering in fear right now. Who here is arguing about what our gun rights really are? As to who best represents us, I think that's pretty much up in the air at this point. Good idea, though. Let's not discuss any grievances about the NRA (or anybody else for that matter). We should just accept that they have our best interests at heart and trust them implicitly. [rolleyes] By the way, try the kool-aid. I hear it has a very unique flavor. [;)] Here's a novel idea: why don't we try to get together and be a part of an organization (read-NRA) that actually has some clout in Washington, rather than bicker with each other? Aren't we in this altogether, or are some of us members of the D.U.? Here's an even better idea: Why don't we start to use the gray matter between our ears and stop marching in lock-step with an organization who some of us may believe is not representing us effectively. Don't like the leadership of the NRA?, join as a 5 year or life-member and vote to change it. In the meantime, you have nothing to say. Nope, I don't like the current leadership of the NRA. And yet, I'm still a member, and I'll definitely vote against the entrenched leaders, for whatever good it will do. What gets me is your attitude of "sticking together", but in the same breath you say that gun owners who don't "belong" shouldn't be able to express their opinion in the way the we all (gun owners) are being represented. How elite of you. And not completely unlike how the deer and duck hunters (who seem to comprise the majority of NRA members) view those of us who own anything other than bolt action rifles and "sporting" shotguns. Take some of that anger and indignation you've got and direct it towards the Dems, you, know: Schumer, Feinstein, Boxer, and Waxman, where it can do some good. Remember the quote....(assualt weapons) "I'd say, 'Turn 'em in Mr. and Mrs. America!" If that isn't enough to sincerely piss you off, then you're a lost cause. I'm not angry, just astounded that so many people refuse to open their eyes to the direction the NRA is taking "us". But while we're remembering quotes, here's a couple for ya: AK-47's are inappropriate for private ownership, of course. --Charlton Heston in an interview with KGO-AM, San Francisco ...and just so you don't think he was duped into that statement.... I just got through telling you. The possession... private possession... of AK-47's is entirely inappropriate. ---Heston during the same interview Who's a lost cause, Fly-n-hitch-hiker? P.S. Have you thought about my offer in the last thread where we had this discussion? I'll start looking at law schools now, and that will give you several months to come up with my tuition. [;)] |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 8:30:04 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, that's it. Let's argue amongst ourselves as to what our "gun-rights" really are, and who "best" represents us. Yeah, that'll do it. I'm sure the anti-gunners are quivering in fear right now. Who here is arguing about what our gun rights really are? As to who best represents us, I think that's pretty much up in the air at this point. Good idea, though. Let's not discuss any grievances about the NRA (or anybody else for that matter). We should just accept that they have our best interests at heart and trust them implicitly. [rolleyes] By the way, try the kool-aid. I hear it has a very unique flavor. [;)] Here's a novel idea: why don't we try to get together and be a part of an organization (read-NRA) that actually has some clout in Washington, rather than bicker with each other? Aren't we in this altogether, or are some of us members of the D.U.? Here's an even better idea: Why don't we start to use the gray matter between our ears and stop marching in lock-step with an organization who some of us may believe is not representing us effectively. Don't like the leadership of the NRA?, join as a 5 year or life-member and vote to change it. In the meantime, you have nothing to say. Nope, I don't like the current leadership of the NRA. And yet, I'm still a member, and I'll definitely vote against the entrenched leaders, for whatever good it will do. What gets me is your attitude of "sticking together", but in the same breath you say that gun owners who don't "belong" shouldn't be able to express their opinion in the way the we all (gun owners) are being represented. How elite of you. And not completely unlike how the deer and duck hunters (who seem to comprise the majority of NRA members) view those of us who own anything other than bolt action rifles and "sporting" shotguns. Take some of that anger and indignation you've got and direct it towards the Dems, you, know: Schumer, Feinstein, Boxer, and Waxman, where it can do some good. Remember the quote....(assualt weapons) "I'd say, 'Turn 'em in Mr. and Mrs. America!" If that isn't enough to sincerely piss you off, then you're a lost cause. I'm not angry, just astounded that so many people refuse to open their eyes to the direction the NRA is taking "us". But while we're remembering quotes, here's a couple for ya: AK-47's are inappropriate for private ownership, of course. --Charlton Heston in an interview with KGO-AM, San Francisco ...and just so you don't think he was duped into that statement.... I just got through telling you. The possession... private possession... of AK-47's is entirely inappropriate. ---Heston during the same interview Who's a lost cause, Fly-n-hitch-hiker? P.S. Have you thought about my offer in the last thread where we had this discussion? I'll start looking at law schools now, and that will give you several months to come up with my tuition. [;)] Awfully sorry, old boy. Been in Europe for the past 4 days. You know; Fly'n hitchiker" and all that! I would have addressed my comments to you personally but I really thought you would have committed suicide by now in embarrassement. Sorry, champ, but you would have had better luck getting money from me for a course in belly-button lint removal than "LAW SCHOOL'. "HEH, HEH." Nice quotes, by the way. Here's another you may want to commit to memory: I reallly meant "baited breath". Since you seem to have swallowed the anti-NRA pap hook, line, and sinker. Get it? AMF! And good night. |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 8:52:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Quoted: Watching LaPierre v. Schumer on Meet The Press and Wayne turned in his usual pathetic performance. He is not doing us any good and needs to be replaced immediately. Agreed, I watched his pathetic performance. The NRA needs a different front man. The gun control debate is as much form as substance and I don't think Wayne's form is very convincing. All Wayne has to do is say, Hey, clown's, which mealey-mouth putz is with us and and which are -not? You've got 30 secomds before we send a shrike up you're collective butts.......sideways. |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 9:18:17 PM EDT
[#12]
The God's honest truth is that the NRA is going to be arround a helluva lot longer than any of us "strobes" so get over it.
Not one "idea "I've heard from any of you nay-sayers has proven that we will prevail! Sorry, but as long as we're our worst enemy, status-quo is sbout the best we can hope for. Best get thoce PVC tubes ready. Man, we're going to need them. Good luck to all you "I'm sitting on my hands because I don't like the "NRA " guys. "Yeah, the NRA gave away this and the NRA gave away that. Man they suck!!! No more moey for those hi-paid slobs." I'd rather sit here on my thumbs and then I'll show those ATF bastards when they come to pick up my stuff. Yeah, I'll show 'em. Why I'll pee in my pants when they show me their search warrant. "Uhhhh, yassire, No, I done gave those guns away to my uncle Nort years ago, "Good, Elmo, mind if we search you're property? Uh, nosirree bob , y'all can check anything.........no not over there. Aw crap----busted!!!! |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 9:30:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Who's a lost cause, Fly-n-hitch-hiker?
Uhhhh, lemme guess, Sonjia Hennie? No, okay gimme one more. Ohhhh, now i've got it ....... You! OKay what do I get? It better be good! |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 9:46:24 PM EDT
[#14]
Buddy, I'm not even the slighest bit angry with you, really.
I just think you've inhaled too much sawdust and now your poor noggin isn't firing on all cylinders. Here's an idea: build a nice comfortable chair, sit down in it and REALLY REALLY think about the pompous, self-rightous , arrogant and inane commements you've made so far slamming the NRA. It's okay, we'll welcome you back into the fold, son; that is, if you truly REPENT!!! Yeah, we will, honest! Just tell the Democratic Underground that you are now in a NRA witness protection program. They'll probably give you a clean bill of health and then, who knows; the sky's the limit! You could be daytime manager at Burger King in no time! Really, you just have to believe in yourself. Go for it man!!!! |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 9:50:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Above quite serious post directed at Yankee1911.
READ IT COMMIT IT TO MEMORY HAVE A NICE DAY GET WITH THE PROGRAM SEEEEE YAAAAA! |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 10:33:40 PM EDT
[#16]
This has been a major problem with the NRA for as long as I can remember. The people they send out don't have any debating experience and are always reduced to being put on the defensive. It always goes, anti-gun weenie spouts off anecdotes as evidence, the NRA guy trys to counter with statistics but is shouted down with more anecdotes.
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Posted: 10/20/2002 11:18:55 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Pierre was absolutely terrible, Schumer ate him alive. Don't anybody here dare criticize those of us who refuse to join the NRA. Not a criticism but if more people would join and VOTE (in both the NRA's elections and the political elections) we dcould have different leaders in the NRA and in the WHITEHOUSE, SENATE, and CONGRESS. I agree, he wasn't as well spoken as he could/should be. Schumer refused to acknoledge that the markings his proposed database would record would simply change over time as the weapons are fired. Its a record of rifling and machining marks which would be polished away by simply firing the weapon. He says that "this" is what has been use to solve crimes. Which is a half truth, this only works if the weapon was recovered within a reasonable time after its use, unaltered and not having been fired much. One could easily fire lap the barrel to alter it. I know i'm preaching to the choir but most people just don't understand how simple it is to do this. |
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Posted: 10/20/2002 11:40:06 PM EDT
[#18]
La Pierre says stupid shit that alienate the average person, the ones who will elect the government.
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Posted: 10/21/2002 6:06:42 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Awfully sorry, old boy. Been in Europe for the past 4 days. You know; Fly'n hitchiker" and all that! I would have addressed my comments to you personally but I really thought you would have committed suicide by now in embarrassement. No problem. I appreciate your concern, but actually I'm living a pretty good life. I'm a little worried about you, though. You seem kind of uptight. Sorry, champ, but you would have had better luck getting money from me for a course in belly-button lint removal than "LAW SCHOOL'. "HEH, HEH." Excellent! Does this mean that you'll send me to your Alma Mater so I can take that course and follow in your footsteps? Nice quotes, by the way. Here's another you may want to commit to memory: I reallly meant "baited breath". Since you seem to have swallowed the anti-NRA pap hook, line, and sinker. Get it? I get it. And for [i]you[/i], that's pretty clever. [;)] AMF! And good night. AMF? That's a little harsh, isn't it? I guess I was right about you being stressed out. You should really learn to relax. HAND! [:)] |
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Posted: 10/21/2002 6:25:14 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Buddy, I'm not even the slighest bit angry with you, really. I'm glad to hear it. In your condition, you do need to relax. Just go to your happy place. I just think you've inhaled too much sawdust and now your poor noggin isn't firing on all cylinders. I NEVER inhaled! [:D] Here's an idea: build a nice comfortable chair, sit down in it and REALLY REALLY think about the pompous, self-rightous , arrogant and inane commements you've made so far slamming the NRA. Actually, I haven't been slamming the NRA. Just the current leadership of the NRA. And since I, unlike you, understand the difference, I will remain a member with the hope of voting out the dead weight. It's okay, we'll welcome you back into the fold, son; that is, if you truly REPENT!!! Yeah, we will, honest! You're going to welcome me back into the NRA when I'm already a member? Thanks. Just tell the Democratic Underground that you are now in a NRA witness protection program. Still thinking I'm from D.U., huh? Well, whatever gets you through the day, I guess. They'll probably give you a clean bill of health and then, who knows; the sky's the limit! You could be daytime manager at Burger King in no time! Really, you just have to believe in yourself. Go for it man!!!! I've already got a job, but thanks. [:)] |
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Posted: 10/21/2002 8:55:57 AM EDT
[#21]
We DEFINITELY need to address what the NRA is doing wrong!!!
We need to support them but also call them and let them know our position. I've emailed em and called em. If all of us do the same perhaps they will listen!!! I've seen quite a few people post that they would give em money and join if they would represent us better. Well I put a post asking for a list of those would stand and be counted, for a list I am going to supply the NRA with...Didn't get enough volunteers to even send in a "list"... About all I got was more lame-ass bickering amongst ourselves. Sure we have the right to bitch, but part of that time and energy can be used to call and write their asses!!! Hell call and pledge to them that you will join and give XX amount of $$$$ if you see good significant public evidence that they have begun to cover all of us under their "umbrella" They can't ignore all of us, or hell even 25-50 of us.... Those of us who give are all carrying YOUR weight if you aren't a member... That List still available if YOU want to do your part... [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=149183&page=1[/url] Even if you're a member join the list and let them know they have a few more $$ coming in if they show us some something... |
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