Yeah, because the enemy overseas is gonna fight us in civilian areas, and I doubt they will move top the open areas if we say "but we never trained to fight like this, its not fair". Anyone with an even basic understanding of what SF operations are about (99% of the folks have no idea) will understand that you CANNOT duplicate the types of operations they do on a military reservation. You just can't. If you like the way our SF guys are kicking ass in Afganistan, its because they trained like they fight, among the local populace, in uniform and out of uniform.

I used to put a little stock in some of these "they are training to get our guns" theories out there, until I heard one too many stories of folks (mostly those active in the local "militia" movement) who claimed to see forgein troops or US troops (always SF or Rangers) in the woods near my location training for what they called "house to house searches, carrying out weapons" and "rounding up prisoners and trucking them off".

In each case, it was my USAR unit doing Combat Engineer tasks, nothing near what was described. But telling it like it really was didn't help further thier agenda any, now did it.

My thoughts and reaction, exactly.

Odds are they did.... they though he was part of the training scenerio, just like them. To these guys they were attacking an enemy police officer behind enbemy lines.
I am sure they did.. in a training scenerio, there would have been a valuable lesson learned for them.... as it is there still is one for the SF community
If you were deep behind enemy lines and traveling, in civilian clothes, in a private vvehicle and the local authorities pulled you over and were about to discover who you were... what would you do? From all indications the scenerio was that they were in the middle east, so two white guys would have stood out big time. What would you do deep in Iraq if an Iraqi cop pulled you over????
As do some for LE.
It's not hard when your the only one with ammo. I haven't seen any inication that any actual hands on contact occured.

I never said that he was a dumb hick with an IQ of 70, only that you would ahve to be to live and work in that area for 7 years and never hear of Robin Sage. I stand by that..its like living in New Orleans and saying "whats Mardi Gras??"

What we have here is a case of two realities colliding. The SF guys were acting properly for the training situation they were in, the officer was reacting to what he percieved was happening. The Local authorities should have been notified that the exercise was going on without a doubt...... but I cannot believe that any LEO who lived and worked in that area for even a year had never heard of Robin Sage.

You still don't get it...

THEY THOUGHT HE WAS PART OF THE "GAME"!!!

They acted what in what they felt was a proper manner given the training scenerio. They did not think he'd really shoot them, cause they thought he knew it was a game also. When your training, you don't cut corners, you do what you have to do. I would guess the only thing they did differently was, when they attempted to disarm him, make sure that they didn't actually injure him since it was a training exercise... taht may in part explain why they didn't succed in disarming him, they meant him no harm.

The thought they were safe, and were acting properly given the scenerio.

I'm not sure where you can't follow this, but you seem to think that the SF guys were out for laughs.... when you have spent over a year busting your ass in the hardest school in the world, and are taking part in the final "exam" you are not gonna play games that risk your status and your career.

They acted properly, so did he, given the reality they thought they were in. It was miscommunication above thier level that that caused the tragedy.

I never said it would change anything... I just find it hard to believe that he never had, and when it was stated earlier in the thread that he claimed to never have heard of it I called BS, and a statement like that puts anything else he says into doubt in my mind....if he said that.

If he said that, he is either lying to cover his ass or is really, really out of touch with the community and department he works for.

let me make it very, very clear here.....since yopu are having trouble comprehending.

I said the officer acted correctly.
I said the soldiers acted correctly.
I said a lack of communication above thier level caused the problem.

Now if you will get off this everybody hates me cause I'm a cop and everybody idolizes SF long enough to realize that we aren't saying he is at fault you might understand.

I'm not sure what you have against soldiers, but you seem to have more of an anti-military or anti-sf bend to your posts than most of the others have an anti-LEO overtone.

It would be interesting to see if the families can actually sue in this case...... I doubt they will be. One condition of military service is that you cannot sue for wrongfull death from a training accident, be it sueing the govt, whoever built the airplane that crashed, the weapon that exploded, or anything else. I will bet it will stop the lawsuits in this case as well.

Posted this as a seperate topic when I probably should have put it here-oops



Mixup During Exercise Kills Soldier
Mon Feb 25, 3:21 PM ET
By ESTES THOMPSON, Associated Press Writer

CARTHAGE, N.C. (AP) - Deputy Sheriff Randall Butler became suspicious when he spotted the pickup truck with someone crouching in the back, exposed to the blustery, 40-degree cold.

 
Butler pulled the truck over and noticed a duffel bag with a disassembled rifle inside. When one of the three men in the truck came at him, Butler tried pepper spray. Then he opened fire, killing one man and wounding another.

According to the account given by Moore County sheriff's officials, what Butler didn't know was that two of the suspicious men were Army Special Forces soldiers training for their coveted green berets.

The soldiers apparently thought Butler was an actor in their role-playing exercise.

The deadly mixup near Fort Bragg on Saturday has shaken Army officials, who plan to re-examine how they carried out the training exercise that they have been conducting for decades.

Army officials said the shooting was the tragic result of a breakdown in communications. They said the Sheriff's Department had not been told about Saturday's exercise because the Army did not think the department would be involved.

The Army "will look at where the miscommunication happened and make sure we take some of the steps to ensure it doesn't happen again," said Maj. Gary Kolb, a spokesman at Fort Bragg.

No charges are expected against Butler, who "did exactly what he was supposed to do. He thought he was in fear of his life from the time the incident started," said Chief Deputy Sheriff Lane Carter.

The Fort Bragg soldiers, whose names had not been released, were taking part in "Robin Sage," the final leg of training for soldiers trying to become Green Berets.

The two soldiers were in a truck driven by a civilian participant when Butler pulled them over on a rural road outside Robbins, about 30 miles from Fort Bragg. Carter said Butler had seen the truck twice during a 30-minute period and thought the occupants were acting oddly.

"One was in the back of the truck and two were in the front of the truck. It was 40 degrees and the wind was blowing and the one in the back was crouched down and it just looked strange," he said.

After stopping the truck and seeing the duffel bag with a weapon, he ordered the two people in the cab to get out, and threw the bag on the ground, Carter said.

The soldiers then apparently tried to disarm Butler.

One soldier tried to assault the deputy, Carter said. Butler sprayed him with pepper spray. The second soldier came out of the back of the truck and tried to grab the weapon in the bag, and Butler shot and wounded him, Carter said. The first soldier came at him again and was shot to death.

The wounded soldier was in serious condition Monday. The Tampa Tribune said relatives identified him as Sgt. Stephen Phelps, formerly of Clearwater, Fla.

Robin Sage is the 19-day final exam of the Special Forces Qualification Course. Conducted since the 1950s in North Carolina, it tests skills in survival, tactics and dealing with people, as well as judgment, decision-making and ethics

[url=]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020225/ap_on_re_us/soldier_killed_7[/url]

Doesn't it seem more likely that either
1. Soldiers thought the deputy was in on it and jumped him so they got shot-or-
2. Soldiers try to be cute and figure they can disarm local cop  and get shot (altho I doubt this one)

Come on-you really think cops cruise around trying to shake down people on country roads-and it they do they would choose to tangle with two guys who (I would assume being Spec Forces soldiers or trainees) are fit young tough looking characters.

Sounds like the Army screwed this one up and got one soldier killed, another seriously injured and ruined an innocent police officer's life.

Lets see if I got this straight.

This was of course an unfortunate incident / abuse of police authority.

The Soldiers were innocent victims who were accosted by some sort of latter day Barny Fife that andy unwittingly set loose upon the public with real bullets.

The Deputy should have instinctivly known that the armed men wearing civilian cloths travelling in a seemingly suspicious manner were in fact soldiers on an excercize.

The Cops are always wrong and travel the roadways in search of victims to Rob, especially in rural areas.  

Soldiers are always right and never make mistakes that get them killed.  

That savage bloodthisty deputy just couldn't wait to get even with those army guys.

Some on this board believe that the cops lay in wait on back roads with the express purpose of causing them harm.

Noone on this board was there and knows what really happened so those so inclined will just do what any good reporter that wasn't there does and make up the story or a hypothetical scenario, apply it to this tragedy, and presume that they know what " really happened " and proclaim it to the world.

There, That about covers the topic in fine detail.

Firstly my condolences to the members, family, friends, and community.

Next some of you need to
[b]SHAKE YOUR HEADS PEOPLE[/b]
The Lt appears to have taken agressive action [u]after[/u] one of his troops is engaged - a commnedable action, since he has been maced and is unarmed.
Robin Sage is an important part of the SF - it requires a civilian area.  The candidates are conditioned to resist capture etc. - Don't like it well then say good bye to any SOF capable units in the US.

[b]BUT I GUESS YOUR TINFOIL HATS WILL PROTECT YOU THEN[/b]

Rant off...

I would bet on the troops, partially due to their training being superlative to what the local yokel is getting.  Secondly his story does not wash, Dirty LEG...