I hate to argue. Lets talk guns.

Hey, in some of these threads, a couple of POSTS is an eternity.

Sorry, couldn't stop myself. [:)]

bobbyfenn makes a good point about late war German pilots.  Japanese had the same problem but solved that one with the 'Divine Wind'.  

If you look at the actual dates I'm thinking you might find that the P-80, ME-262, HE-163 and Meteor development started around the same time (1942) as all the players had developed jet engines by this time.

CB

P.S.  I thought you ALL were right in your own way.  

I'm glad the war did'nt go to 1946 becuase of what the Germans had going on in thier own skunk works. There's this site called Luft'46 that shows all the blueprints/specs of aircraft in development. Some pretty wicked stuff.

Bobbyfenn, I have been wrong before, and will be again, but I don't think I'm wrong here.

WWII aviation is my passion, and I've been reading everything I could get my hands on on this subject for about 25 years.

First, the US had the P59 Aircomet flying in the early '40s, not sure of the exact date.  The Brits fielded the Meteor before the war ended.  Hell, even the French flew a jet during the war.

I think it's safe to say the Germans put the first one into combat, and it was a much more advanced design, but the Allies were in production overdrive, and weren't about to prolong the war for even another day just to get jets into the fray in numbers.  Production was peaked, every jet off the line meant less Mustangs.

I stand by my statement about the 262 being a pilot's aircraft. Local actions aside, there was no widespread attempt to get unskilled pilots into them.

FUEL was the problem at war's end.  Most German aircraft were just sitting around due to the success of our strategic bombing.

As to your reference to the History channel, I enjoy it myself but do not credit it with teaching me history.

Read "The First and the Last" by A Galland or "Rocket Fighter" by Mano Zieglar, about the Me 163.

No way those were piloted by amateurs, hell, they killed a lot of veteran pilots.  There were very few 262s in service at war's end, mostly due to fuel.

The People's Fighter was the Heinkel referenced above.    

That might be true about each country having jet programs at the same time. But Germany was desperate and they had dedicated more resources to jet propulsion far before we did. Operation Paperclip as I believe it was called referd to the allied effort to snatch German scientists. Supposedly, according to the History channel show I mentioned before, the F-86 Sabre was highly influenced by German scientists. It even resembles a non-production German prototype. I'll try to find its name.

The ME-163 was piloted by many Hitler Youth. You'd have to be a fanatic to fly one and no expert pilot in his right mind would want to get disolved by the volitile fuel mixture. This is not an educated guess but if you like, it might take me an hour or so, I would be happy to find proof.

Agreed, Bobby.

I get a catalog of aviation literature, I was looking at several titles along the lines of Luftwaffe 1946 and unrealized designs, fictionalized accounts of jets attacking B29s brought in to continue the assault on Fortress Europe.

I can't recall it's designation, but it looked like a very FAT '86.

They also flew the Gotha 229 (?) a flying wing design with engines in the wing roots.

The AR234 Blitz was a jet bomber that saw action against the Remaggen Bridge, very small and extremely cool looking.  I saw the only one left at Silver Hill, where they restore aircraft for the Smithsonian institute.

The Luft technology at the end of the war is frightening, I used to cite it when traditional thinkers thought we could take the Soviets during the 70s and 80s despite their overwhelming numerical advantage because "our stuff is better."

Local actions aside you might be right. There was no large scale attempt to put beginners into 262's.  

Read "Rocket Fighter."  It's by an Me 163 pilot.

It's an amazing account of what it was like to sit on 2 tanks of chemicals, either of which would dissolve you, which were DESIGNED to explode when mixed.

And YES, Hitler forced some of his best pilots to die in that thing.

Go for it.  I, for one, would be very interested to read it.  Thanks in advance.

CB

Given the chance to argue or discuss, i'll discuss first, argure later. It will be fairly easy to show how Hitler youth flew the Me 163, since I have read this is almost all my realted WWII aviation books. Proveing beginner pilots flew the 262 will be somewhat harder since my only source is the much maligned history channel and I would need to procure a copy of "Luftwaffe 1946"

The craft which resembles the f-86 is called the Me P.1101. It was or would have been capable of 621 mph at 7000m with a ceiling of 45931 feet.

Should you want more info on Luftwaffe craft that were desigined but never produced I would be happy to find it.

As far as the Gotha 229 flying wing, I've heard it called the Go P.60 A,B, or C. Supposedly it was painted with rader defeating paint. Its max speed was 596 mph and was used as a nightfighter.

Page 154 of "Rocket Fighter" by Mano Ziegler:

"Our pupils, for the most part young and enthusiastic fellows, had come straight from the glider school in Gelnhausen where they had been trained up to the Stummel-Habicht standard for fast skid-down landings."

No specific mention of Hitler Youth, but a large percentage of the young pilots in the glider schools were in fact Hitler Youth members.


"Rocket Fighter" is one of my favorite WW II aviation books, by the way. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in WW II aviation.

Here are some links to wwII nose art sights:

www.library.arizona.edu/noseart/
www.mustangmustang.com
www.bayarea.net/~hanger/
www.bombergirl.com

Bobby, good catch on the precursor to the Sabre.

I think I am detecting an impending semantic argument.

The Hitler Youth organization was a nearly mandatory step in WWII Germany for adolescent males.  Many young men coming of age during that time had been members of the program.  It was used, in essence, as a pre enlistment training tool.

Many of the young pilots PSS speaks of had been in the program before entering the Luft.

Their eventual assignment to the Me 163 would NOT make them Hitler Youth pilots flying the 163, any more than saying boy scouts fly fighters now simply becasue some pilots used to be scouts.  

I believe you are talking about actual members being put into the planes, meaning teenagers, not former Youth members.

I know that many such teenagers were assigned to ground combat in the closing weeks of the war, often being issued a single Panzerschrek antitank weapon.

Based on the descriptions I have read, anything less than an expert couldn't survive a single landing in the 163.

Thanks for the quote PSS.

How's it going?

Also, I LOVE the history channel, I just also know that if I can spot errors in it's information, it can't be that accurate.