All of Oriental Asia, barring ex Spanish colonies and some other outposts, may take issue with that thought.

alright eric-

you win.
You're the smartest, most knowledgeable individual ever to grace the earth with his mortal presence. I'm sorry to have ever questioned your obviously superior intellect.

I apologized to O-P for the transgression, and also explained the rationale behind it.

I tire easily of your petty name calling and refusal/inability to answer any of the difficult questions. Anyone that asks a question about anything jewish is automatically branded a nazi. Very original.
Painless at least stepped up to the plate.
You however, carefully select the question you wish to answer, deftly avoiding the difficult ones, and ignoring the counterarguments presented to you.
Instead you pick on capitalization...

Stay in your comfy little bubble of a world. You seem to have it all figured out.

I've often thought this of Eric. [:D]

Good one W-G. [:D]

Thanks for the Washington Prayer Liberty86. Good stuff.

But what did The Principal Founder of The United States of America know anyways? He was obviously brainwashed into Christianity like all of us other 'mindless Christians'. Obviously not a very smart man. A victim of power-hungry evangelists to believe in such as silly thing as a Redeemer. Why... I'll bet that if he had believed that after death he was destined only to be 'worm food', he would have REALLY liberated the colonies from England in style.

Maybe, with enough pride and self-centralization someday I too can lose my faith and stop being an ignorant man wishing I was a "loser" like Washington. Who knows how far I could go without being held back by faith and silly superstitions?  

Edited to add:

Yeah, I know that some may take me to task with the "The Principal Founder of The United States of America" comment. I'm sure there are those who feel that Jefferson's influence over our beginnings is greatest. But Washington is my favorite and was such a favorite of the colonists that they wanted him to be King.

romans
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

You're sooo easy- smug little viking wannabe. !!!  [:)]!!!!


1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.


No reason we caint be neighborly.

back to the original question- if the
laws were based on the 10 commandments, why don't they mention it in the preamble or the bill of rights??? You'd think they'd slip in there somewhere.

>>>Yes, being arrested for "graven images" or "not keeping the sabbath holy" sounds so much better than the governments stupid ass laws that interefere with our liberty.

What kind of punishment did you have in mind, a good stoning?<<<

I was thinking more of 20,000 Stone Control Laws. That would take care of that problem.

But it was a protestants writing the document. You’d think that they would havr at least alluded to it. Or maybe that’s why there’s 10 amendments in the bor.??? Crafty…



That makes it sound like your answer is ‘no’. They're not mentioned nor a basis???

With respect to the original question, what SteyrAug said except you are both more wrong than right.

You might be able to show some very slight derivation on a few of the laws but most legal scholars could easily show they are far more derived from other sources.  Remember if you are talking laws talk to legal scholars.  If you are talking religious matters talk to religious scholars. Not to bad mouth any particular Religious Scholars but you aren't going to find any work that connects the Constitution to the 10 Commandments that stands up to normal scholarly standards of derivation and linkage.  The derivations rely on assumptions and comparisons like some used here.  For example the room was full of Bishops and Pastors so everything that came out was a religious work based on the 10 Commandments.  Nobody told an off color story because they were all religious.  It doesn't fly.

And most of the colonists were not theocratic.  Possibly the Anglicans were but the Puritans, Congregationalists, Baptists, Anabaptists, Quakers, Huguenots, Moravians and other German Protestant sects weren't.

Well, Red, we must NOT leave out the Jeffersonians!!!  [:D]

[b]In a letter to Don Valentine de Feronda, 1809

"The only foundation for useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion."

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..."

"I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest system of morality that has ever been taught but I hold in the most profound detestation and execration the corruptions of it which have been invented..."

As President, Thomas Jefferson not only signed bills which appropriated financial support for chaplains in Congress and in the armed services, but he also signed the Articles of War, April 10, 1806, in which he:

"Earnestly recommended to all officers and soldiers, diligently to attend divine services."

In a letter to Horatio G. Spafford, dated March 17, 1814, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains."

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that [red]I am a real Christian; that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus[/red]."[/b]



It just cracks me up, that some of the crackheads around here seem to think the USA was NOT established by God, using His People...


CHRISTIANS!!!

If you look and do not understand basic HUMAN thought.

The fact that cultures over time developed similar laws is not a shocker at all.
Could you imagine a society where people were allowed to move boundaries willy nilly?  ITS CALLED ANARCHY!!  No need to invoke god at all.

Liberty 86-
From a cursory reading of that posting- it seems like Jefferson was a convenient Christian. Choosing it as the lesser of two evils( no religion / corrupted religion). He seems to be using it as a management tool.



Ummm yeah—these guys may disagree with you:

782 Charlemagne Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne (c742-814) beheads 4500 Saxon rebels in one morning for refusing to convert to Christianity.

There are more then a few instances of horrible crimes being committed by Christians.
At least own up to the history behind your beliefs, instead of glossing over all the ugliness, and blaming it all on weak /evil misguided ‘men’.

[b]O_H_C:[/b]  In light of your "[b][red]WWTRD[/b][/red]" sig-line, I humbly submit the following:

[url]http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/life/Church9reasons.htm[/url]



[:D]

SO WHAT? History is repleat with examples of men commiting crimes in the names of any number of persons/deities/beliefs. You are BLAMING CHRIST himself for these horrible acts evidently. Because if you are not blaming the perpetrators, then you ARE blaming the originator. So just put it all out on the table man... you blame Christ for the acts of his followers.


Another great quote Liberty86. I agree that Jefferson was a great man, along with Washington, Lincoln and many others -- all of them with a profound belief in Christ.


So there you have it, I choose to look to these great men as examples of great Christians. They were very intellegent and conducted themselves with honor. Just because some psycho claims to believe in Christ as he does his evil act, does NOT negate the great acts or beliefs of our founding fathers. Unlike the evil man, THEY LIVED THEIR CHRISTIANITY!

Hardshell- well done sir!!!
Of course it's easy to post this-- how much of it can YOU actually follow?????

I'll (re)add:
"The conservation of our natural resources and their proper use constitute the fundamental problem which underlies almost every other problem of our national life." - Jamestown, Virginia, June 10, 1907- T. Roosevelt

does your church do anything along these lines??



"A hyphenated American is not an American at all. This is just as true of the man who puts 'Native' before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance."

T. Roosevelt


Red Label ( and Eric-) you both did exactly what I said you would. If it's 'bad'- it was done by men- if it was 'good'- well that's god's work.

I still disagree with
"Christianity is the basis for all human liberty and all human freedom."

Their 'rules' may man doubt himself and encourage un-natural actions. Loving your enemy--- that's a good plan!!!

a few exerpts from history:

36-65 Paul of Tarsus Paul (Saul) of Tarsus allegedly orders destruction of Israel Christian church before converting to Christianity; no evidence proves Paul existed.

48-62 Pauline books Teachings of Jesus allegedly recorded by Paul despite claims by many scholars that he could not possibly have met Christ.

312 Constantine Roman Emperor Constantine (d 337) converts to Christianity to bolster own military power and unite vast and troubled Roman Empire.

64 Cornelius Tacitus Roman historian Tacitus (55-120) condemns Christians as religion hated for its abominable crimes.

c312 Official religion Constantine makes Christianity official religion of Roman Empire: first blood shed over doctrinal differences between Athanasian and Eusebian sects.

c312 Pagans condemned Christians condemn all pagan religions as demonic: Constantine authorises demolition of temples or conversion to Christian shrines.

314 Abominable butcher Constantine is described as "one of the most abominable butchers and fiends of cruelty that ever lived" after executing own son and boiling wife alive.

314 Pagan massacres Constantine defends Christian massacre of pagans in Egypt and Palestine.

325 Nicean Council Constantine calls for Christendom's 250 bishops to attend First Nicean Council to settle disputes over nature of Christ and other church doctrine.

325 Nicean Creed Constantine institutes Nicean Creed to unify Christian Incarnation and Resurrection beliefs; Divine Trinity doctrine is approved to attract pluralistic pagans.

336-61 Aryan schism 1,000,000 Arian Christians are killed for disagreeing with Nicean decision that Jesus is divine being; Arians claim Christ is created being.

340 Christmas Julius I sanctions December 25 as Christ's official birthdate thereby quashing Roman Feast of Saturnus among other pagan festivities.

364 Imperial edicts 3 Imperial edicts order confiscation of all pagan temple properties and punishment by death for participation in any form of pagan ritual.

380 Illegal to disagree Theodosius reinforces Damasus I's decree and makes it illegal for believers to question church doctrine.

398-403 Slavery John Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople (398-403), quotes Titus 2:9-10 to support slavery: "The slave should be resigned to his lot; "in obeying his master he is obeying God".

420-1100 Dark Ages Church engineers complete control over education; reading and writing are restricted only to potential priests and knowledge outside church is suppressed.

420-1100 Medicine Advances in Greek and Roman medicine and hygiene are declared heretical; plague sweeps Europe resulting in huge casualties.

420-1100 History History is rewritten by church fathers claiming world is only 5000 years old.

420-1100 Science Science is pushed back 2000 years; Pythagoras' idea earth revolves around sun (600BC) is banned by church even when reintroduced by Copernicus in 1600s; Aristarchus' heliocentric theory (300BC) is banned by church until reintroduced by Galileo in 1600s.

448 Book burnings Theodosius II (401-450) orders burning of all non-Christian books.

532-577 Asia Minor Inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus leads crusade against Asia Minor gentiles; 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on sites of demolished pagan temples.

590 Grammar banned Gregory I, or Gregory the Great, sends out order compelling bishops to desist from "wicked labour" of teaching grammar and Latin to lay people.

c590 Education banned Gregory condemns education for all but clergy resulting in society remaining illiterate for almost 1000 years.

c590 Library burned Gregory forbids laypeople from reading Bible and orders burning of Palatine Apollo library so its secular literature would not distract religious.

c590 Pagan conspiracies Christian authorities launch new wave of torture and executions in response to perceived pagan conspiracies in Eastern Europe.

c590 Statues destroyed Many ancient Roman statues, marbles and mosaics are destroyed or turned into lime under Gregory the Great or used to adorn Christian churches and cathedrals.

c590-604 Enforced celibacy Gregory I introduces celibacy edict to prevent property from passing from church to possible wives, families or mistresses of clergy.

c590 Babies murdered 6000 babies are found murdered in pond outside Gregory's Lateran palace after celibacy edict is introduced by Gregory I.

594 Plague ends Plague ends and church moves to dominate field of medicine; Christian monks are taught "bleeding" techniques to prevent toxic imbalances and restore humors.

594+ Bleeding Tens of thousands die each year by bleeding until practise ends in 16th century.

640 Library destroyed Great library of Alexandria, described as centre of Western Culture, is destroyed by Christian mobs; 700,000 ancient rolls are burned.

640 Documents burned Christians destroy Gnostic Basilades, Porphyry's 36 volumes, writings of 27 mystery schools and 270,000 documents collected by Ptolemy Philadelphus.

690 Bible translations Earliest translation of parts of Bible into English vernacular.

694 Jewish enslavement Fifth council of Toledo orders enslavement of Jews, their property confiscated and children forcibly baptised.

782 Charlemagne Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne (c742-814) beheads 4500 Saxon rebels in one morning for refusing to convert to Christianity.

cont

800 Universal Emperor Pope Leo III (795-816) declares Charlemagne Universal Emperor.

955-66 John XII John XII (955-966) develops reputation as murderer and adulterer; reign becomes so dissolute that Lateran spoken of as brothel.

964 Benedict V Benedict V (964) develops reputation as thief and adulterer; later described as "the most iniquitous of all the monsters of ungodliness".

965-72 John XIII John XIII (965-972) becomes adulterer hated by laypeople; turns Lateran into stews before being murdered by husband who catches him in bed with wife.

1085 Toledo King Alfonso VI of Castile takes Muslim city of Toledo, plundering its vast treasures; tales of further Muslim riches create desires among Christian leaders to ransack their lands.

1095-9 First Crusade Urban II (1088-99) calls for European knights to march on Jerusalem under Christian umbrella to wrest Holy Land from Turkish Muslims. Jews and dark-skinned Christians also targets.

1096 People's Crusade Catholic preacher Peter the Hermit (c1050-1115) leads 1000s of peasants in holy war on Belgrade, chief city of Orthodox Church after Constantinople.

1096 Yugoslavia Amid confused fighting, Peter the Hermit's peasant army accidentally slaughters 4,000 Christian residents of Zemun, Yugoslavia.

1096 Goose Crusade Scores of German Jews are hacked or burned to death by Christian fanatics who follow goose "blessed by God".

1096 Muslim slaughter 4,000,000 to 7,000,000 Muslims die as Peter the Hermit's peasants follow Christian knights into Jerusalem; crusaders believe killing Muslims "good for soul".

1096 Jewish slaughter Estimated 12,000 Jews are slaughtered during first crusade; Historian Dagobert Runes estimates 3,500,000 Jews are killed during seven Holy Wars.

1098 Antioch Historian H Wollschläger estimates 100,000 Muslims, including women and children, were slaughtered by Christian crusaders at Turkish Antioch.

1098 Marra Historian H Wollschläger estimates 1000s were slaughtered by Christian crusaders at Maraat an-numan.

1099 Battle of Askalon Historian H Wollschläger estimates more than 200,000 were slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ".

1099 Jerusalem Jerusalem taken by crusaders. Historian H Wollschläger estimates more than 60,000 Jewish and Muslim men, women and children were slaughtered by Christians in Jerusalem.

1099 Jerusalem Raymond of Aguilers describes Christian capture of Jerusalem: "One rode about everywhere amid the corpses of men and horses". Nicetas Choniates says: "Even the Saracens are merciful and kind compared to these men who bear the cross of Christ on their shoulders".

If you are speaking of me, personally, and the list I posted above - every word, sir, to a jot & a tittle.  I agree wholeheartedly with each item in Teddy's list (although I suspect this list was "off the cuff" & considered somewhat flippant in his day).  The biggest stumbling block for me on that list is #8 - I have trouble feeling charitable toward my peers who have professed faith & joined the church yet shirk the corresponding duties & take church attendance lightly (the fault is mine - I pray to do better).  I intend to open services with that list & expound upon it a little this Sunday morning, in fact.  (No, I'm not a preacher - in my church, deacons are often called upon to "open services" [after singing, before preaching] with relevant thoughts, scripture, or whatever they feel led to speak about, then offer prayer.)

If that is not what you meant, I apologize for my confusion.

[b]... and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.[/b]

Preach it, Eric. [:D]

So there was no liberty or freedom for anyone on the planet until the followers of Christ turned their small Jewish cult into a recognized religion 2000 years ago?  

That is correct.

NO nation on earth was founded by Christians prior to our founding 400 odd years ago.. NO nation had, as it's basis, "God-given", Freedom & Liberty enshrined in a, (now lost), Constitution.......  

mcantu....


Before you edited your post, you stated that in 10 years of study, you found no evidence the founders were Christian.

Try this....

[url=http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/founding.html]Christian Founders[/url]

Noooo- please read it s l o w e r.

"[b][[i]alleged[/b][/i] weasel, [b][i]]allegedly[/b][/i] order distruction of the christian church.......




That seems to be that normal response for you-- just ignore ugly historical facts.

I'll just roll some highlights for you.:

[b]64[/b] Cornelius Tacitus Roman historian Tacitus (55-120) condemns Christians as religion hated
for its abominable crimes.

[b]312[/b] Constantine Roman Emperor Constantine (d 337) converts to Christianity to bolster own military power and unite vast and troubled Roman Empire.

[b]314[/b] Abominable butcher Constantine is described as "one of the most abominable butchers and fiends of cruelty that ever lived" after executing own son and boiling wife alive.

[b]420-1100[/b] Dark Ages Church engineers complete control over education; reading and writing are restricted only to potential priests and knowledge outside church is suppressed.

[b]420-1100[/b] Medicine Advances in Greek and Roman medicine and hygiene are declared heretical; plague sweeps Europe resulting in huge casualties.

[b]420-1100[/b] History History is rewritten by church fathers claiming world is only 5000 years old.

[b]420-1100[/b] Science Science is pushed back 2000 years; Pythagoras' idea earth revolves around sun (600BC) is banned by church even when reintroduced by Copernicus in 1600s; Aristarchus' heliocentric theory (300BC) is banned by church until reintroduced by Galileo in 1600s.


[b]640[/b] Library destroyed Great library of Alexandria, described as centre of Western Culture, is destroyed by Christian mobs; 700,000 ancient rolls are burned.

[b]782[/b] Charlemagne Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne (c742-814) beheads 4500 Saxon rebels in one morning for refusing to convert to Christianity.
[b]800[/b] Universal Emperor Pope Leo III (795-816) declares Charlemagne Universal Emperor.
( see also louis freeh)

[b]1096[/b] Muslim slaughter 4,000,000 to 7,000,000 Muslims die as Peter the Hermit's peasants follow Christian knights into Jerusalem; crusaders believe killing Muslims "good for soul".
[b]1096[/b] Jewish slaughter Estimated 12,000 Jews are slaughtered during first crusade; Historian Dagobert Runes estimates 3,500,000 Jews are killed during seven Holy Wars.

[b]1098[/b] Antioch Historian H Wollschläger estimates 100,000 Muslims, including women and children, were slaughtered by Christian crusaders at Turkish Antioch.

[b]1098[/b] Marra Historian H Wollschläger estimates 1000s were slaughtered by Christian crusaders at Maraat an-numan.

[b]1099[/b] Battle of Askalon Historian H Wollschläger estimates more than 200,000 were slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ".

[b]1099[/b] Jerusalem Jerusalem taken by crusaders. Historian H Wollschläger estimates more than 60,000 Jewish and Muslim men, women and children were slaughtered by Christians in Jerusalem.

[b]1099[/b] Jerusalem Raymond of Aguilers describes Christian capture of Jerusalem: "One rode about everywhere amid the corpses of men and horses". Nicetas Choniates says: "Even the Saracens are merciful and kind compared to these men who bear the cross of Christ on their shoulders".


sounds like a fun bunch of guys!!!!

Millions dead- science and medicine repressed, civilizations destroyed and sacked. Books and manuscripts burned.

You seem to have some denial issues here Hunster.

edited to add emphasis

Quik notes on the crusades for those that are googlely impaired.

The mid 7th century to the mid 10th century CE saw the gradual expansion of Islam. Half of the Christian world was conquered by Arab armies; this included countries in which Christianity had been established for centuries, such as Egypt, southern France, southern Italy, Sicily, Spain, Syria, Turkey, etc. 4

By the late 10th century, Europe and the Middle East were divided into Christian and Muslim spheres of influence. Christian pilgrims from Europe regularly visited Muslim-controlled Jerusalem in reasonable safety. Such pilgrimages were very popular. The were believed to be one of the major acts by which a person could limit their exposure to the tortures of purgatory after their death.

By the middle of the 11th century, Christianity had formally split: The Emperor/Bishop of Constantinople and the Bishop of Rome had mutually excommunicated each other. Christendom was divided between the Roman Catholic Church and the Byzantine Empire. In 1071, the Turks defeated the latter at the Battle of Manzikert. This left Constantinople exposed to attack from Muslims. Meanwhile, Christians were being ambushed during their pilgrimages to Jerusalem.

Emperor Alexius asked Pope Urban II for assistance. On 1095-NOV-27, the Pope called on Europeans to go on a crusade to liberate Jerusalem from its Muslim rulers. "The first and second wave of Crusaders murdered, raped and plundered their way up the Rhine and down the Danube as they headed for Jerusalem." 1  The "army" was primarily composed of untrained peasants with their families, with a core of trained soldiers. On the way to the Middle East, they decided that only one of their goals was to wrest control of Jerusalem from the Muslims. A secondary task was to rid the world of as many non-Christians as possible - both Muslims and Jews. The Crusaders gave the Jews two choices in their slogan: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed as the first Crusade passed through. Some Jewish writers refer to these events as the "first holocaust."  Once the army reached Jerusalem and broke through the city walls, they slaughtered all the inhabitants that they could find (men, women, children, newborns). After locating about 6,000 Jews holed up in the synagogue, they set the building on fire; the Jews were burned alive. The Crusaders found that about 30,000 Muslims had fled to the al Aqsa Mosque. The latter were also slaughtered without mercy.

The Roman Catholic church taught that going to war against the "Infidels" was an act of Christian penance. If a believer was killed during a crusade, he would bypass purgatory, and be taken directly to heaven. By eliminating what might be many millennia of torture in Purgatory, many Christians were strongly motivated to volunteer for the crusades. "After pronouncing a solemn vow, each warrior received a cross from the hands of the pope or his legates, and was thenceforth considered a soldier of the Church." 3

These mass killings were repeated during each of the 8 additional crusades until the final, 9th, crusade in 1272 CE. Both Christians and Muslims believed that they were fighting on God's side against Satan; they believed that if they died on the battlefield they would be given preferential treatment in Heaven. Battles were fought with a terrible fierceness and a massive loss of life. Over a 200 year period, perhaps 200,000 people were killed. The Muslim warrior Salah a-Din subsequently recaptured Jerusalem from the Christians.

By the end of the crusades, most European Christians believed the unfounded blood-libel myths -- the rumor that Jews engaged in human sacrifice of Christian children. A long series of Christian persecutions of the Jews continued in Europe and Russia into the 20th century. They laid the foundation for the Nazi Holocaust.

The result of centuries of conflict among followers of the three Abramic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) was a "deep mutual hatred" and mistrust among the three faiths. Memories of these genocides still influence relationships among Jews, Christians and Muslims to the present time.

Among many Jews and Muslims, the term crusade evokes visions of genocide, mass murder, and mass extermination of innocent people. However, among many Christians it has become a positive term, frequently used to refer to mass rallies and campaigns to win converts - as in the Billy Graham Crusades.

The same could likely be said if Xerses destroyed the Greeks.

Thou shalt not kill, except in defense of ones country(ie.LAND.policy,etc)[rolleyes]

They are not  directly derived from the Ten Commandments; the Ten Commandments contains a few laws that are not unique to the 10C, but were in fact replicated  in many of the similar  laws from other societies. US law actualkly borrows a lot from old Roman law.

 This was a thread on AR15 a few months ago, but since we can only go back into archives 30 days, its too late to dig it back up......