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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:33:37 AM EDT
[#1]
I'll tell you why I picked up an AK, I didn't have a rifle when the war started. A cannon battery only has 114 rifles and 10 SAWs with the other 24 personal weapons being M9s, since we were below TO levels I had enough rifles to equipped everyone but my 1stSgt, Fire Direction Officer, 3 Corpsmen and myself with a rifle. As we went north we all pickup weapons of various type as we went. It was just a wartime expedient to make up for a lack of rifles. When, at least, Marine units got outside of Baghdad, there was a shortage of 5.56 ammo, I know of allot of guys who picked up AKs after running out of 5.56 ammo, it was either an AK or no shooting back, so again it was a war time expedient. So if someone said they picked an enemy weapon up and used it because, they didn't start the war with a rifle (which the Marine Corps has pretty much corrected) or because of running out of ammo I buy that, but not the I wanted a few extra seconds or the M4 equates with someone to shoot (since some of the lower rent PSDs are giving AKs out as a cost cutting feature and the secondary target for the T, the police and ING, all carry AKs).
After the war (OIF I) all those captured weapons were destroyed though. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:33:38 AM EDT
[#2]
Im hoping STLRN will fill us in on just WHO gets M4s instead of M16A2s and A4s in the Marines.
It might prove interesting in reference to some viewpoints here. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:39:23 AM EDT
[#3]
You are looking for an ass whooping, if SF_Chris reads this you are through, you know he is the baddest green beret wearing dude at the indoor range. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:42:45 AM EDT
[#4]
That one problems there is no standardization on who gets an M4, units are getting them but in low level and they are being snagged up by commanders, like an infantry BN getting around 12 on a recent rotation. The only unit that has allot of M4s are the recon battalions and rotorwing aircrews. There were some weird sub units created of reservist and individual augments that were thrown together because guys would just show up and no one had a position for them, like one RCT had a convey/VIP security detail of about Plt strength and they all got M4s, but that was kind of a weird thing.
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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:44:23 AM EDT
[#5]
Yeah, that's why I am now typing this in a secret undisclosed location. 
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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:56:57 AM EDT
[#6]
STLRN has brought up a interesting point about military life that I think a lot of people who haven't been in the service would understand. In the Military it is universal that supply channels work in odd ways, some would say it is more akin to voodoo. Weapons distribution does not always make sense, when I first went into the Army in Basic we were issued M16A1's this was in 1992, at basic we had a guy in a reserve transportation unit who told us that we would never see A1's again, that even his third rate unit had all brand new A2's, he was wrong when I got to Ft. Bragg and 50th Signal BN Airborne (Corps) Forced Entry, we had A1's and M60's, the officers and 1Sgt had M9's, the M9's were the only weapons that our unit had not Had since the early seventies. TThe odd part about our unit having old rifles at that point in time is that the unit had recently been overhauled and reorganized into a first rate top of the line unit, all new switching equipment, all new vehicles, all new everything except weapons, there we were, one of the permiere signal units in the Army, the only airborne Signal BN in the world, and we had hand me down weapons, and just in case your making bad assumptions we were not the pogue REMF signal unit you would assume, our mission was forced entry which meant that our job was to establish a robust tactical network in indian territory with little or no combat arms support. Sometime in 93 we were finally given A2's to replace our aging M16A1's, they came from teh 7th ID when they were deactivated, they worked great but they had certainly been floged for several years.
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Posted: 10/2/2004 3:23:44 AM EDT
[#7]
Amazing how things work sometimes. Can you say bass ackwards?
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Posted: 10/2/2004 3:37:29 AM EDT
[#8]
I don't think so much ass bawkwards most of the time, it is just that it is a very complex system, were there are many differnt ways of getting the job done. My dad spent well over twenty years AD in the Army by the time I was six, I knew that getting something from supply (especially soemthing that was not in the companies current inventory) took finesse and imagination, sometimes, other times you can easily get the most off the wall stuff.
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Posted: 10/2/2004 8:37:41 AM EDT
[#9]
+1 Those are six color desert BDUs. We don't use those anymore. You just thought they were Americans because the US military trained them enough that they now look like professional soldiers and use appropriate tactics. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 9:01:37 AM EDT
[#10]
Or you just didn't get shit at all. I remember getting to my unit as a newbie, and told how to make tiedowns/etc for my LBV with 550 cord. I go to Supply and ask the supply sergeant nicely for some 550 cord to tie my gear down in accordance with unit SOP, and he told me to fuck off and buy my own 550 cord. Yet I would see people from other units walk around with multitools issued to them by their supply sergeant. 
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Posted: 10/2/2004 9:56:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Again, people, I only repeated what I heard to Tatja and made the assessment that this particular Marine wasn't full of it. STLRN, if you want to send me an IM with your name and such I will put you in touch with your fellow Marine and you can tell us all what results from the exchange. I do get tired of people who have never been in the field making armchair issues out of every detail in every post. On the other hand I am happy to connect anyone inside the "operational community" with anyone else inside the "operational community." As for my credentials, whoever it was that asked, I've led two airborne alpine recon squads, served for 2 years as a member of a counter-terrorist team and 1 year as leader of that team. My sister's creds, which also seemed to be an issue, are far more impressive. She's the only female to be alpine jump "instructor" qualified, ever. I BELIEVE but I am not sure, that she was the only female team member in a winning Swiss Raid Commando team. There might have been someone else since then. She's also one of a precious few former female officers in a military that doesn't have double standards. Personally, I far prefer running kill house entry drills to jumping over alpine forest at night. It is up to you guys but you probably don't want to be telling her she's full of shit before you introduce yourself politely. Edit: Just FYI, it wasn't a bunch of "civilians at the range" but a 4 day carbine class taught by former Marine rifle instructors. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 10:06:03 AM EDT
[#12]
Got anymore sisters? 
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Posted: 10/2/2004 10:12:53 AM EDT
[#13]
Nope, she's the only girl and the youngest of us. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 12:17:31 PM EDT
[#14]
You can IM his unit, I know people in the G shops of both I MEF and 1st MarDiv to find out if there where any units out there that matched that profile. It may take me a few weeks but I can have an answer for you and the rest of the board if you like.
As I told Brou, there is a good chances that there was a slight misunderstanding and if I am wrong I am more than willing to admit it. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 12:25:26 PM EDT
[#15]
Which military are you referring to as the one with "double standards" ? |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 12:33:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Any military that has dual training/testing standards or no combat roles for women. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 12:40:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Nice duck and cover. As far as I'm concerned, I think women should be allowed to serve in any role as long as they pass the EXACT same standards as the men do AND that those standards have not been lowered so as to increase women "just because" But thats not how it works. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 12:43:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Well, I can't speak for the Marine Corps, but I can speak for my boys in the sandbox. I know for a fact that some of them (like my old PSG) carries his M4, a shotgun, and an AK. He simply uses whichever he feels is most mission-appropriate. It happens. It's not official. They get the job done, kick butt, and take names.
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Posted: 10/2/2004 12:44:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Sorry?
And my point was that Tatja has managed to excel in a military system without double standards. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 12:49:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Those guys look too "geared out" to be Iraqi NG. Look at their posture. Look at their sunglasses and holsters. I can't imagine kneepads being standard issue with ING units either but I might be wrong.
My son was over there with the 4th ID and he said they regularly kept AKs in their vehicles as back up weapons. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 12:52:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Is your Plt Sgt an E9? |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 12:54:00 PM EDT
[#22]
And a might military it is at that |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 12:56:35 PM EDT
[#23]
Commence pissing match. 
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:01:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Hey the truth may hurt, but that doesn't change the facts. The Austria haven't been a military power house since prior to WWI.
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:04:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Tatja didn't serve in Austria. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:05:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Our GI's have been using AK's widespread for the last year, opting instead to leave their AR's on base.
I have heard and read several sources indicating this trend. Also they do not always have enough AR's to go around but for the most part the troops chose to carry AK's!!!!!!!! 7.62 kills quicker and doesn't ricochet nearly as often plus at the short ranges they fight at in urban areas the AK is a better weapon you seldom ever need accuraccy beyond 100 meters at those ranges, accuraccy is the M-16 or AR-15's only advantage. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:07:26 PM EDT
[#27]
Never seen Tatjana, had no idea Austrian was her brother, and had no clue that STLRN was there for the beginning of OIF. Jesus, what rock was I under? |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:08:15 PM EDT
[#28]
Have the Swiss ever been a "powerhouse" I mean other than money laundering. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:09:17 PM EDT
[#29]
You are full of shit, sir. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:17:50 PM EDT
[#30]
Having done it myself I can tell you than anyone who has served their country, much less jumped out of a plane into alpine forest at night in February probably deserves your respect, no matter where they served. I know of no other military |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:26:22 PM EDT
[#31]
Okay, so what is your point you sister has been on training exercises. Ones for militaries that you yourself keep referring to do doing stupid things. As military professional I a can tell you, that we may do some dangerous things, but we don't intentionally do stupid things. If your standard for military greatness is how stupid someone is willing to be, I am sure I have a few LCpls that could beat anyone in all out stupidity, however I wouldn't classify that stupidity as something that makes the US military great, something that few militaries can claim. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:31:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Yes he is… The AK-47/AKM’s 7.62x39 round is much less effective that the M-16/M-4 especially inside 100 yards. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:47:09 PM EDT
[#33]
I'm very sorry I'm not a Marine. I know this is about the only standard you'd respect. That's ok. I know many Marines. Many of you are like that. I have to make jokes about the beach ball, fishhook and seagull before they finally cool off when they realize they are yelling at a girl and a former officer. Like I said, I would have been a Marine, except that I didn't feel like being stuck in a HQ in a major city making coffee and taking letters because someone with an unresolved gender issue decided I wasn't fit for combat duty because I lack testicles. I certainly wouldn't have gotten jump certified if I tried to serve in the U.S. For a country that is so great I often wonder why its men can't handle co-ed work with women who can pull their own weight. I doubt we will ever know. I'm glad you served/serve your country. Thanks for that, btw. You'd represent your nationality more favorably, I think though, if you were a bit less caustically xenophobic. The color of the patch on my arm is an accident of birth and gender views. Be this as it may, I don't think I would treat another officer, from any service, so shabbily. Sneer at a non-combat experienced Ranger because all he has done is "training?" I think not. What's the matter with you, Sir? - Capitan (ret.) Tatjana von E. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:55:43 PM EDT
[#34]
.
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Posted: 10/2/2004 1:59:09 PM EDT
[#35]
I'm wondering where he got the richochet thing from, anywho. A steel core round will punch STRAIGHT thru most objects a normal round won't - right? I'm wondering if he ever read the stories of Marines shooting out beyond 100 meters before in Iraq. It IS a desert, you know. 
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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:06:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Geez. This was a thread that started off very interesting and gone down the toilet since. All of these insults over an argument stemming from who carries an AK? Good grief folks, let's get a grip. Really.
I feel every person with credentials in this thread should get my respect because they have all done things that I and most other posters here haven't done. Whether you train to storm beaches, fight in urban slums, jump out of planes, assault into a target by helicopter or ride to the target in the back of a deuce and a half, you are all/were professional soldiers. I respect you all and I respect your opinions. But for the love of God, let us please drop the insulting comments toward our fellow board members. STLRN is a US Marine (a knowledgeable one at that) and I respect his opinion. There is no better fighting unit in the world than a group of US Marines. But I also happen to have a ton of respect for Tatja too. Should I care she's a woman? She had the physical and mental skills to compete with men and advance through the ranks on her own, so we should not dismiss her service either. Plus, we are talking about the Swiss here, not the damn French! LOL. Remember that their government requires their citizens to own weapons for the defense of their nation. Anyway, we are all friends here and I hate to see friends insulting each other. There may be differences in opinion among several knowledgeable folks, but is it really that important of an issue? I think not. Everyone can and wil see things slightly different at times. I bet if you take any 10 colonels at random from the US Army and ask them what the best way is to deal with Fallujah and you will likely get 10 different answers. The general plan may look similar but each individual will have slightly different opinions on how to accomplish a given task. That's all this argument is. A slightly different opinion about something that really isn't all that important anyway. It certainly isn't important enough to me to see lots of people I like insulting each other or being insulted. -CH |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:12:02 PM EDT
[#37]
I believe all service is honorable, but not all service is the same. A guy who spends 20 years and retires without seeing combat served and did an honorable thing. But it does make him the same as someone who has went into harms way, I am sorry you may not like it, but that is just the way it is. You may think some box kicker who served in BFE, has the same value as that salty 0311 who has 2 CARs on his uniform, but I don't. Most foreign militaries aren't to the standard of the US or Brits, that's not Xenophobia that's a fact. Like it don't like, that is your option, but sticken your head in the sand and using red herrings like, by accident of birth doesn't change it (by the way I wasn't born in the US either, but I don't use that red herring) that the standards of the other militaries aren't the same. I hate to break it to you, I also respect the Brits a whole hell of allot, many units in the US Army, the ROKs and a few other nations military. Now this whole thread, my only contention is that Master Gunnery Seargants (E9s) in the Marine Corps aren't going to the field as operators, they go to the field as planners and coordinators. Are the senior enlisted in other nations out there as "Operators." I don't know, but I know here in the US it doesn't happen. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:48:52 PM EDT
[#38]
But like I said, I can't speak for the Marines, or for anyone else for that matter, except those with whom I have worked. I wasn't trying to jump in on the bit about whether or not a SNCO in the Marines would have an opportunity to carry an AK or not; merely that *some* of our conventional troops in theater do use them. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:50:47 PM EDT
[#39]
I have heard they are very good at money laundering, especially the gold from mouths of little old Jewish ladies... But anyways, sticking with the thread, if an AK is a better gun for certain applications for our troops, then that is what they should have available to them. I know a lot of ppl. like to get territorial and emotional about our current "battle" rifle...that has been that way forever in this country. Let's face the facts, the AK is better in some applications than the M16, and vice versa. Just the same way the M14 is better at certain things. My point is whatever is best for the troops should be what they get. God bless what they are doing over there, because I'm sure most of us don't want to do that shit unless we have to... |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 2:58:52 PM EDT
[#40]
I don't know where you got that idea from, lots of females are airborne qualified in the US Army, many are jumpmasters, and at any given time there will be some female instructers at the Airborne School. As for jumping into a forest, the 82nd has a company of engineers who specialize in doing exactly that. |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 4:54:47 PM EDT
[#41]
We have civilians called smokejumpers who jump into alpine forests........while on fire. Does that count ? |
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Posted: 10/2/2004 5:10:20 PM EDT
[#42]
I've never seen alpine forest burn before. 
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Posted: 10/3/2004 2:05:32 AM EDT
[#43]
Damn! They light those guys on fire before they jump out?
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Posted: 10/3/2004 3:49:13 AM EDT
[#44]
Who are these guys and what are they carrying?
  Andy |
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Posted: 10/3/2004 4:02:13 AM EDT
[#45]
Vito, your not getting the point, as I have said no one is deny that US troops have carried AKs, but in about ever case they were being carried because of a shortage of rifles (the bottom one is from a while back anyway, he is from an armor unit and if you look at his body armor it is a PASGT). But my whole point is not that someone was carrying an AK, that a E9 in the Marine Corps was telling some guys at a Range he commonly did it and he did it to get the drop on the Hajjis, which the looking like a westerner would probably be impossible. |
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Posted: 10/3/2004 5:02:08 AM EDT
[#46]
Not having a go at you or 'calling' you STLRN… …Just trying to get the thread back on track… Andy |
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Posted: 10/3/2004 6:36:46 AM EDT
[#47]
I for one, feel privileged to listen in on discussions between such qualified and experienced professionals.
yet I would be more interested in their insights and experiences than the 'other' stuff I mean, where else could you go to hear conversation on weapons, tactics, and such from the likes of Tatjana, STLRN, Austrian, and others..and be welcome I'd like to hear a lot more from them, but preferably not the hostility/questioning each's qualifications/motivations Thanks T, S & A and you Tatjana, have surely made your family, country, fellow soldiers proud |
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Posted: 10/3/2004 6:41:11 AM EDT
[#48]
 get some! |
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Posted: 10/3/2004 6:51:35 AM EDT
[#49]
I concur. Knock off the bullshit, and just post information!  |
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Posted: 10/3/2004 8:03:14 AM EDT
[#50]
Deleted: Did not add to the body of knowledge. Sorry for the interruption.
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