Quoted: Quoted: SteyrAUG, surely you can tell us some hilarious stories of what these bastards have said when confronted?  I'd love to hear about some enraged asshole who thinks YOU are the prick.  Do tell....I'll throw some popcorn in the microwave. When the archives become available do a search for "True Tales Of THe FFL." Best one was probably the kid who failed his background check and insisted I was trying to "steal" his AK because he already paid for it and I wouldn't give it to him.

Oh I have seen them, and I do remember the kid with the AK.  I was talking more specifically about this HK guy and others running the same scam.

Quoted: Quoted: I do it all the time, if my guy's don't have what i want, and i do all the leg work why should i pay my ffl holder more than his transfer fee.   I always call first and ok it with them, i pay the tax's on it. And none of my ffl holders have a problem with it, I'm up front with them as to what i'm doing, It makes their life easier. Do you also take your own eggs and bacon to the restaurant and pay them a "transfer fee" to cook them?

I take my own wine. They charge a "corkage" fee. Usually $3 or $5.

Quoted: Quoted: SteyrAUG, surely you can tell us some hilarious stories of what these bastards have said when confronted?  I'd love to hear about some enraged asshole who thinks YOU are the prick.  Do tell....I'll throw some popcorn in the microwave. When the archives become available do a search for "True Tales Of THe FFL." Best one was probably the kid who failed his background check and insisted I was trying to "steal" his AK because he already paid for it and I wouldn't give it to him.

Did you have to throw him through a window?

That's wild. I never think someone would do that.

Quoted: 1. They may purchase the item at full retail (I normally don't sell that high but these guys have earned it).

So, they end up paying for the gun, twice? Once when they order it, and again when you blackmail them for it?
I sure am glad my FFL is a Realator, and not a gun dealer.

Quoted: Quoted: 1. They may purchase the item at full retail (I normally don't sell that high but these guys have earned it). So, they end up paying for the gun, twice? Once when they order it, and again when you blackmail them for it?

reading comprehension.  learn it, live it, love it.

Quoted: Excellent! I see my HK USP45 made it. I'll be by to pick it up this evening...by the way, it's a pre-paid special order...so I owe you nothing.

Actually, that's my USP.  I'm arranging a group buy of them, so you may receive about 10-12 in the next few days.  I'll pick it up tomorrow.  By the way, where's that Colt LEO model I ordered?

Quoted: Quoted: 1. They may purchase the item at full retail (I normally don't sell that high but these guys have earned it). So, they end up paying for the gun, twice? Once when they order it, and again when you blackmail them for it? I sure am glad my FFL is a Realator, and not a gun dealer.

They illegally used HIS FFL without his permission.  The gun is his to do what he wants with it.

My view of this is:

1.  Make arrangements in advance (duh).
2.  Buy accessories (as in, when I picked up my .45 at a really cool dealershipI bought ammo, cleaning stuff, holster while there) from the dealer.  I think in that case the dealer probably made as much off me as if I had bought a new gun out of the case.

shooter

People do some funny shit. A dealer I go to all the time says he has these types all the time. Guns will just show up at his shop with no idea why. Later someone will come to pick it up. He looks up the dealer price and his MSRP and charges them the difference. He says that usually stops it, sometimes not. People just don't learn.
A lot of times if when me and ssome buds go in and order stuff, he cuts us some pretty good deals. He knows we will always be back and nearly always bring friends that order stuff. I had him order me a k31 from AIM. I got it and showed it around, let a few guys shoot it. He told me the next time I was in that 7 guys came in to order the same thing.
Classic, scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Lots of people seem to forget that one.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm not sure that I would announce this practice in a public forum, but it is your business. Good luck. What's wrong with announcing it?  Now everyone knows not to use that "asshole dealer" in Florida to move their "at cost " transactions through!

Nothing. I think that it is great. I'm
just worried about the quid-pro-quo
aspect of it. It appears (on the surface)
that he is selectively reporting ATF
violations in exchange for sales.

I'm just saying that I would not mention
it in a forum we know is being monitored
by the door-kickers.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1. They may purchase the item at full retail (I normally don't sell that high but these guys have earned it). So, they end up paying for the gun, twice? Once when they order it, and again when you blackmail them for it? I sure am glad my FFL is a Realator, and not a gun dealer. They illegally used HIS FFL without his permission.  The gun is his to do what he wants with it.

+1

Not his problem that some jerkoff tried to beat the system. What IS his problem is that said jerkoff illegally used his FFL(I'd be shocked if that wasn't a felony) in order to try to beat paying full price for the gun. He defrauded the company by letting them believe he was authorized to buy using that FFL, and he almost certainly expects to walk into SteyerAUG's store and pick up that pistol without paying a dime.

Gun dealers are in business to make money. Some may take unsolicited guns, but you can't expect all of them to. This asshole is lucky that SteyerAUG isn't working on putting him in prison.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I do it all the time, if my guy's don't have what i want, and i do all the leg work why should i pay my ffl holder more than his transfer fee.   I always call first and ok it with them, i pay the tax's on it. And none of my ffl holders have a problem with it, I'm up front with them as to what i'm doing, It makes their life easier. Because YOU are not a FFL and therefore not entitled to FFL pricing. That is why those ads say "FFL Prices Only." But if you have a local FFL that is cool selling guns at cost plus a transfer then that is none of my concern. That is how "they" choose to run "their" business. Well actually ive called gander mountain and if you can find the weapon at ffl price they will except the weapon and transfer it just for the transfer cost($25). Even if its cheaper than thier price. Given they should talk it over with you first. Thats just plain curtesy. But i dont see how double charging someone for thier weapon is the right thing to do.

That is the key, call or stop by in person.  SteyrAug has stated quite clearly that if thier is previous communication he generally has no problem with doing a transfer.

If you try to suprise someone you should naturally expect to have that favor returned!!

While the other party was definitely in the wrong for having the gun shipped to an FFL without a prior arrangement, I believe saying they "ordered it on your FFL" is not correct.   That is implying that the person attempted to impersonate the FFL holder, which I don't think is the case.   In your "MO", you state that the shady buyer goes down his laundry list of local dealers - if that was the case, don't you think that the seller is going to get a suspicious when they tell the buyer that Gun Shop A doesn't have a license on file, and the buyer then says "Oh, I really meant I was Gun Shop B." as he traversed down the supposed laundry list?

I also think it is wrong to say that all the SGN ads are dealer-only pricing.    There are only a very, very few places that advertise in SGN that only allow a dealer to place an order.  Most are happy to take the order and payment from a 3rd party and have it shipped to a licensee - this is not an uncommon occurance.   The seller will usually make the assumption that arragements have been made with the licensee, but obviously this isn't always the case.

Of course, the gun generally needs to be shipped to an FFL, but that is [n]only because the law requires it.   I'm sure that if it was legal, those same places would happily sell for the same price and ship direct as well.   The only thing that they did wrong was not make prior arrangements with you first, and you are certainly under no obligation to offer the service of a transfer to them.   However, they did not break any laws, unless you can find something on the books about notifying a licensee before you ship or have a firearm shipped to them.   If you were to keep an item they paid for, regardless of whether or not you knew it was going to be delivered to you, I would only think it would be considered theft.  

The proper thing to do would be to request the shipper issue a call tag and return it.   The shipper should then be in their rights to deduct shipping charges and a restocking fee to the buyer.   If you elect to keep or sell the gun, chances are the buyer is simply going to dispute the charges with their CC (and will probably win since they really did nothing illegal), the wholesaler is going to end up eating it, and perhaps go after you - or at least be real pissed off.

I have signed copies of my FFL in my gunsafe.  If I buy a gun, I send them a copy of hte FFL with the check and email my delaer to let him know to expect it.  

Seriously SteyrAUG, if someone did that to me, I would probab;y do the same thing or I would actually sell it and tell them to go pound sand up their ass.

Quoted: Quoted: 1. They may purchase the item at full retail (I normally don't sell that high but these guys have earned it). So, they end up paying for the gun, twice? Once when they order it, and again when you blackmail them for it? I sure am glad my FFL is a Realator, and not a gun dealer.

Hey, Lon, what do you do for a living?

All this makes me want to become a FFL dealer just so I can screw with the assholes and become popular by being the first non-shithead dealer in the region.

Quoted: I will give them 2 options: 1. They may purchase the item at full retail (I normally don't sell that high but these guys have earned it). 2. I can turn over the entire matter of them trying to make purchases on my FFL to FDLE and ATF (again not something I normally do but these guys have earned it).

Buy the gun, again, from you, or deal with the feds? Yeah, I call that blackmail.

so if he paid for it with his credit card, can't he contest the charges and get out from under it?

I have found that having a good friendship with my local FFL will get me low and fair prices for giving him my business on a regular basis.

I would certainly be a little miffed if people I'd never heard of ordered crap and had it sent to my FFL, but I don't see how they did anything illegal and I bet most weren't actually trying to scam anyone.  I don't see how you think the gun is your property however, I'd just have it sent back to the distributor at their cost which I would hope they'd charge the buyer for the shipping and restocking, etc...  

Clearly as you didn't pay for that gun it's not yours to sell, it needs to be returned whether they were trying to scam you or not...

I don't think anyone has said this yet... so let me be the first...

DIBS!

I just want to make clear that I think SteyrAUG is totally within his rights to do this, and I think it's hilarious - I just have a mechanical question about the implementation.

Blah Blah Blah.................plenty of ffl dealers who will hook up a friend and keep his profits up.

So Steyr, did the guy get his pop gun or what? Interested to find out the outcome of this one.

Every time I order anything it is through an ffl with their permission. I could probably get away clean with the local shop as one of the two guys that works there is clueless, but its a matter of principal. Interestingly enough On my last order I noticed that the supplier had put the dealers FFL number and credit card number on the order statement which I got. I promply copied down the info that was pertinent to the purchase I had made and then shredded the original.

Btw this story reminds me of the kid trying to buy an 'ak47' through you without your permission.


Keep up the good work.

ETA: I carry a shotgun news with me frequently to the gunstore but always assure my dealer that Im using it to show him what I want but expect the price to be higher as he does need to make a living.

Ok, so what I'm curious about is this?  Do they say they are you?  If so does the guy on the other end not ask for an FFL number for the "FFL only" price?  I'd think saying I'm Bob Smith and then giving Joe's Guns as the shipping address might raise a flag or two if you care about the price you are charging.  

I ask because if they are pretending to be you (or an employee) to get the discount that's one thing and I agree 100% with sticking it in their ass.  On the other hand if they simply had it shipped to you with the other party selling knowing full well that it is not you ordering the gun then I can't see how the law was broken.   While I can see you refusing the transfer and returning the gun.   Just taking it and double charging seems hefty.  But it's your business to run and if your in your rights to do so, it's not my business to say otherwise.

I'd not dream of ordering anything that expensive and just spring it on a dealer with no notice.  That's just stupid, but I don't see it being illegal.  Then again I don't claim to know the ins and outs of federal law so hence my asking.  

Quoted: so if he paid for it with his credit card, can't he contest the charges and get out from under it?

Wouldn't that be a big no-no?  The distributor then goes after him for stopping payment on a firearm purchase.  And besides, the distributor did EXACTLY what he asked them to do.  I don't know how bad stopping payment on a firearm is, but I do seem to remember that writing a bad check for a gun is a BIG no-no.

shooter

SteyrAUG,

I understand you sentiments about this. I keep a good working relationship with a couple of dealers. They look out for me and I look out for them.

Did you ever consider the unintended consequences of the actions you say you'd like to take by including FDLE or BATFE? The primary unintended consequence I can see from adding their involvement is the changing the requirement from "on file" to "per transcation" in other words they want an signed FFL sent for every order t come back to a FFL holder. Now consider what this may do to the way you and all other FFL holders do buisness. It would make it much more of a logisitics nightmare to add the additional records keeping. The point being, while I understand you are trying to stick it to the guy doing the wrong thing, your approach may actually come back to bite you and other FFL hoders. JUst wanted to point out a differnt perspective for you.

While I can enjoy the entertainment you derive, It think it is a little more honest to just tell the person not to do it again. I think it is still OK totransfer to someone other than them, because they did not check with you first.

Also, my honest opinion with FDLE or BATFE is that they have bigger fish to fry than tracking down a person for doing this. They are much more intersted in FFL holders and how they do business and keep records. They can be great to work with or a bear. It would only take one call from someone like you to make me thing about how to cut off finding all the guys that do the thing you described - and that is having a signed FFL for every order.

So have it your way - the old say be careful what you ask for certainly applies.

Quoted: I would certainly be a little miffed if people I'd never heard of ordered crap and had it sent to my FFL, but I don't see how they did anything illegal and I bet most weren't actually trying to scam anyone.  I don't see how you think the gun is your property however, I'd just have it sent back to the distributor at their cost which I would hope they'd charge the buyer for the shipping and restocking, etc...   Clearly as you didn't pay for that gun it's not yours to sell, it needs to be returned whether they were trying to scam you or not...

The law clearly states anything delivered to you, that was not ordered by you.
Is yours to keep.

Definitely stupid of the buyer not to make an arrangment with the FFL first.  It would probably also be not so smart for the FFL to sell someone else’s property.  If it were just sent back, the buyer would learn his lesson.

Number one, that is a state law, in some states.
Number two, in many states that have that law it is only for consumers. A business is not usually a consumer.

Quoted: Quoted: I would certainly be a little miffed if people I'd never heard of ordered crap and had it sent to my FFL, but I don't see how they did anything illegal and I bet most weren't actually trying to scam anyone.  I don't see how you think the gun is your property however, I'd just have it sent back to the distributor at their cost which I would hope they'd charge the buyer for the shipping and restocking, etc...   Clearly as you didn't pay for that gun it's not yours to sell, it needs to be returned whether they were trying to scam you or not... The law clearly states anything delivered to you, that was not ordered by you. Is yours to keep.

Quoted: Quoted: I would certainly be a little miffed if people I'd never heard of ordered crap and had it sent to my FFL, but I don't see how they did anything illegal and I bet most weren't actually trying to scam anyone.  I don't see how you think the gun is your property however, I'd just have it sent back to the distributor at their cost which I would hope they'd charge the buyer for the shipping and restocking, etc...   Clearly as you didn't pay for that gun it's not yours to sell, it needs to be returned whether they were trying to scam you or not... The law clearly states anything delivered to you, that was not ordered by you. Is yours to keep.

I do believe that is true.

Quoted: Definitely stupid of the buyer not to make an arrangment with the FFL first.  It would probably also be not so smart for the FFL to sell someone else’s property.  If it were just sent back, the buyer would learn his lesson.

Because of the logging requirements though it is NOT that person's firearm.  It is the legal responsibility of the FFL holder.  In my world being responsible for something makes it MINE.

shooter

I bought a pistol off of Gunbroker.com Went to the local dealer to get a copy of his FFL. He is a real nice guy, good prices, and I have bought several items from his shop.

When I go into his shop he is on the phone saying, "I don't give out copies of my FFL. How do I know what you are going to do with it? You bring me the address and I will send a copy when I can."

I am standing there going hmmmmm...... He then asks me what I need today. So I tell him about gunbroker etc. and I need a FFL copy. He reached into his desk and gave me a copy and asked if he needed to call me when the pistol arrived.

Treat people with courtesy and respect and 75% time it will be returned.  Do someone dirty and 110% of the time it will also be returned.

.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would certainly be a little miffed if people I'd never heard of ordered crap and had it sent to my FFL, but I don't see how they did anything illegal and I bet most weren't actually trying to scam anyone.  I don't see how you think the gun is your property however, I'd just have it sent back to the distributor at their cost which I would hope they'd charge the buyer for the shipping and restocking, etc...   Clearly as you didn't pay for that gun it's not yours to sell, it needs to be returned whether they were trying to scam you or not... The law clearly states anything delivered to you, that was not ordered by you. Is yours to keep. I do believe that is true.

Actually, not.  Does anyone really believe that you get to keep whatever UPS drops at your door, even if it is not yours?

Tag for later

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would certainly be a little miffed if people I'd never heard of ordered crap and had it sent to my FFL, but I don't see how they did anything illegal and I bet most weren't actually trying to scam anyone.  I don't see how you think the gun is your property however, I'd just have it sent back to the distributor at their cost which I would hope they'd charge the buyer for the shipping and restocking, etc...   Clearly as you didn't pay for that gun it's not yours to sell, it needs to be returned whether they were trying to scam you or not... The law clearly states anything delivered to you, that was not ordered by you. Is yours to keep. I do believe that is true. Actually, not.  Does anyone really believe that you get to keep whatever UPS drops at your door, even if it is not yours?

Depends on the laws of the state.  But yes, if UPS drops off a blender I didn't order I am under no obligation to spend any time or effort to return it to the party that shipped it to me.  I think that came along after a few companies started sending stuff to people and then demanding they pay for it or ship it back at their own cost or time.  

That NRA video was a great example.  They can send it and later demand I pay for it all day long, but the tape is mine and I am under no obligation to return it, or pay for it.

I generally would think that it would be a good idea to ask your FFL before you just send shit to him with no agreed upon transfer price, but i generally dont buy something without first asking how much...

There's people that try to screw FFL's, and there's FFL's that try to screw people (35% markup on Centry Int'l crap, etc.). They both deserve an ass kicking.


Now that I've stated my point, down to business:
I'll give yah $525 for that thing if you'll hold it 'til I get back to the states

If you have a gun sent to a dealer without asking him what the transaction fee for your transaction will be its your dumb ass fault when he says oh i do transfers for $100, if you just asked to begin with he might be willing at a reasonable price.