Quoted: Quoted: I am really surprised at the number of people who would shoot. I would have bet money almost everyone would have said walk… I suprised at the number of people who said they "wouldn't shoot." The people who say they won't shoot obviously don't trust their abilities enough to shoot and hit a target roughly a more than a foot away from a no-shoot target, on a clear day, during the day, on a  range, in a steady non-moving shooting stance. The people who said they would shoot (note I say nothing about them standing next to the target) obviously lack confidence in their skills.

Run that part by me again a little slower?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: heh read SWAT this month huh? Gabe Sauerez (or wahtever his name is ) did a class in Omaha last year with OPD I shot IPSC with a couple of guys that were there  they were very unimpressed has to get shot at to keep his warrior edge he used to troll at glocktalk bigtime and got banned general opinon is he is a hack that article prompted calls to a few instructors i know.  I was surprised that a few of them actually said YEA!  They did it with advanced students.  Comments I got were you should see the group sizes shrink.  When a 6”-12” group was good enough the students shot the two rounds as single holes or clover leaves.  A couple of them talked at length with me and I still think they are nuts.   If you need a circumstance like that to tighten up your groups....then you suck anyway.   A 6"-12" inch group at anything less than 30 yards with a pistol is inexcusible.

I"m an NRA instructor for ccw in ohio.  I would never condon this type of training but..... This was an advanced class and I don't know all the facts surronding this however, If you are legally carrying and you need to draw your firearm you better be able to hit what you are firing at since you will be held responsible for every bullet you send downrange or down street.  If you are not this confident then maybe you need to spend more time at the range and practice practice, practice.  Again let me be very clear, I would never condone this type of training but if the people in my class can't consistantly hit a target at 20-30 feet then I don't sign off on them.  my .02 worth.  I'll get off my soapbox now, no wait someone is pushing me.......

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would do it, but I don't see a point. The only reason I see for that drill is to instill trust in guys who will fight together. It is to benifit the shooter, to add stress. Like it or not, you get into a fight, there may actually be non-threats near the target you are engaging... The times we have done it students reaction time slows down not a huge amount, but maybe 1/10-2.5/10 of a second (some are more extreem.) You will usually have a couple of students who's times are actually faster.   We always did it from leather (or plastic these days) and from concealment. I'm all for increasing stress levels. But there are better ways to do that. Such as ? I don't think the 7-11 is going to have one bad guy and a bunch of white "no shoot" targets standing around him/her. Fair enough, don't do it... Nobody will care... I would never look down on someone for not doing it (nobody in an Advanced class would.) FWIW: In the two classes (once again, not Suarez) not one people felt it was dangerous enough to not do it.

You can simulate most of the physiological effects of gunfights with either an injection of adrenaline or just physical exertion.

Offer to provide the person fireing with a statement stateing that be "Victim" requested to
be shot at.

This situataion would never happen in any reputable school.

Never.

It's a stupid post IMO

Quoted: Quoted: you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class.  he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets.  he then asks the first student  in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.   so what as a student do you do? Put the two rounds in the damn target.

Damn straight
Now if he told ME to stand next to the target it'd be another story.

I have a definite expectation that if I ever have to shoot someone in my home they may have one of my family. I have no intention of backing down or dropping my weapon. One thru the midbrain is where I'm going. If you are going to puss out, don't keep a gun.

Quoted: Training Question. "what would you do if"??? You are in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class.  He walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets.  He then asks the first student  in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.   So what as a student do you do?

Ask him if he presigned the course completion certifications.

I'd shoot. I'd also have the guy sign a release.

I remember some rule about not pointing a firearm towards anything you didn’t want to kill or destroy.

- and you arent violating that rule unless you have something against shooting IPSC targets.

I've done this drill (beside the target and shooting at a target with someone else beside it) with a trainer (not Suarez).  I had confidence in my partner and he had the same in me. I didnt really think anything of it.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would do it, but I don't see a point. The only reason I see for that drill is to instill trust in guys who will fight together. It is to benifit the shooter, to add stress. Like it or not, you get into a fight, there may actually be non-threats near the target you are engaging... The times we have done it students reaction time slows down not a huge amount, but maybe 1/10-2.5/10 of a second (some are more extreem.) You will usually have a couple of students who's times are actually faster.   We always did it from leather (or plastic these days) and from concealment. I'm all for increasing stress levels. But there are better ways to do that. Such as ? I don't think the 7-11 is going to have one bad guy and a bunch of white "no shoot" targets standing around him/her. Fair enough, don't do it... Nobody will care... I would never look down on someone for not doing it (nobody in an Advanced class would.) FWIW: In the two classes (once again, not Suarez) not one people felt it was dangerous enough to not do it. You can simulate most of the physiological effects of gunfights with either an injection of adrenaline or just physical exertion.

Ever been shot at? ever been shot?

Seems moronic to me.  Advanced class or not, does this asshat have enough liability insurance to cover my legal fees if I do kill him?  Didn't think so.  Its not that I don't trust my abilities, its the other unkowns in play.  The instructor is a moron, all it takes is one over confident fool to plant him because he followed his instructions.  The guy is a walking darwin award waiting to happen.  Its a class, he doesn't know these people and he's trusting someone to not get nervous, aim true and not blow him away.  What if someone is using a unfamiliar gun for this particular class for whatever reason, what if someone isn't as good as everybody thinks, what if someone has a malfunction on the firing line and sends unaimed rounds down range???

I would have yelled, "Squad, ready, aim, fire"  Nothing like ~10 people trying it to get him to rethink that little lecture.

It doesn't matter if he instructed you to fire, if you miss and kill him, you will still be charged with a crime.  Manslaughter if you are really really luck.  Most likely negligent or plain old regular homicide.

I'll be waiting to hear the news of how this guy gets capped in one of his classes.

I would shoot.  It wouldn't bother me and I've done it many times before.

Those of you who carry guns and can't trust yourself to make this simple, static shot on a square range should probably not carry your gun anywhere where you may have to shoot someone in the vicinity of other people who don't need to be shot.

Quoted: I would shoot.  It wouldn't bother me and I've done it many times before. Those of you who carry guns and can't trust yourself to make this simple, static shot on a square range should probably not carry your gun anywhere where you may have to shoot someone in the vicinity of other people who don't need to be shot.

Very good point.

Hoooya!

Make him sign a waiver.

I can actually shoot very accurately "gangsta style" lol

Tried it a few times...That's what I would do.

Put one into the target "sideways like YO" and watch him run like hell screaming his head off.



ETA: maybe that would teach the idiot a lesson.

Quoted: Quoted: I would shoot.  It wouldn't bother me and I've done it many times before. Those of you who carry guns and can't trust yourself to make this simple, static shot on a square range should probably not carry your gun anywhere where you may have to shoot someone in the vicinity of other people who don't need to be shot. Very good point.

Either that or they need a LOT more practice.

Quoted: you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class.  he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets.  he then asks the first student  in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.   so what as a student do you do?

Pack up.

Get in car.

Drive in the opposite direction as quickly as possible.

Make arrangements to never even be in the same STATE as he was.

Tell everyone I know.

Flinging rounds at people's heads is a damnably irresponsible thing to do, PERIOD.

Quoted: hes got a forum since hes been banned most places http://www.warriortalk.com/

Only a fargin idiot would name his own site "warriortalk".

What BS.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class.  he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets.  he then asks the first student  in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.   so what as a student do you do? Leave.  The fucker is crazy and I don't want to be on a hot range with him. yep. ask for your money back..

+1

Even as an advanced class, this guy is too hardcore for me.  I'll pass and let him go sleep on his bed of nails...

Quoted: I would take the shot.  In fact I HAVE taken the shot in classes where we've run the snake drill with other students.  Drills like that are dangerous, but they don't have to be unsafe.  I've also participated in drills that had other students downrange while we were engaging targets.  And the shooting is done while moving!

You've just created a paradox.

AMF.  

Quoted: Flinging rounds at people's heads is a damnably irresponsible thing to do, PERIOD.

]
Maybe I'm getting the wrong picture here but I figure 7m, standing alongsid a typical silhouette target which means he is several feet from where I'll be shooting. Not exactly flinging rounds by the guy's head. If i am wrong maybe someone can clear it up.

I don't think what he is doing is a good idea and I sure wouldn't do it myself but I would have no problem at all making that shot. None.

Quoted: Maybe I'm getting the wrong picture here but I figure 7m, standing alongsid a typical silhouette target which means he is several feet from where I'll be shooting. Not exactly flinging rounds by the guy's head. If i am wrong maybe someone can clear it up.

Gabe stood right by the target and had one of his people shoot past him so he could maintain his "edge" by "remembering" what combat was like.

I don't think what he is doing is a good idea and I sure wouldn't do it myself but I would have no problem at all making that shot. None.

I am not firing a round with someone downrange, period, unless that person is trying to kill me. Bullets do funny things and I have no intention of having my bullet harm someone. If they insist on being downrange when I shoot, I will pack up and leave.

Quoted: Quoted: Maybe I'm getting the wrong picture here but I figure 7m, standing alongsid a typical silhouette target which means he is several feet from where I'll be shooting. Not exactly flinging rounds by the guy's head. If i am wrong maybe someone can clear it up. Gabe stood right by the target and had one of his people shoot past him so he could maintain his "edge" by "remembering" what combat was like.

Where did you get that?

I don't think what he is doing is a good idea and I sure wouldn't do it myself but I would have no problem at all making that shot. None. I am not firing a round with someone downrange, period, unless that person is trying to kill me. Bullets do funny things and I have no intention of having my bullet harm someone. If they insist on being downrange when I shoot, I will pack up and leave.

Maybe a squib or something along those lines but bullets, like everything else,  don't defy the laws of physics.

Look, I'm not trying to justify what the guy is doing, I think it foolish(nothing new about human folly believe me - it paid for my car, SUV and plenty of toys) but I could make that shot all day long.

Quoted: Where did you get that?

SWAT article, for one, plus word of mouth from lots of other folks who know their stuff. Never go near Suarez for ANYTHING.

Maybe a squib or something along those lines but bullets, like everything else,  don't defy the laws of physics.

A bullet is completely out of your control once it leaves the barrel, and yes they do actually do funny things. Especially when there are lots of them flying. Bullets don't always go perfectly straight or stop immediately when they hit something.

Look, I'm not trying to justify what the guy is doing, I think it foolish(nothing new about human folly believe me - it paid for my car, SUV and plenty of toys) but I could make that shot all day long.

It is not a question of being able to make the shot.

It is a question of safety and propriety. Flinging rounds past someone's head improves no one's skill, but does introduce huge risk into the equation.

I am more than able to fire and miss someone like Gabe, but every now and then even I shank a shot.

Testing new sigline.  

under the circumstances the actual danger is lower than say, driving on a two-way road, that said;

anyone that consciously invites incoming kinetic projectiles swims in the shallow end of the gene pool.

If you want stress, put a $20k 60" plasma TV next to the target with a "you break it, you bought it" sign on it.  You know if you wind up shooting someone it will cost at least that much in legal fees.

As a kicker, could you imagine the local PD and DA reviewing a case if someone was accidentally shot or killed.  They won't care much about waivers or release forms, they'd be looking for a conviction.

Kindly volunteer to hold the instructor's wallet and car keys.

I would make the shot. I would be careful not to sweep the instructor, keep cool and just do it.  No big deal.  Anyone who freaks out about shooting a target when somebody is down range is going to hesitate when the moment comes to actually use their CCW.

The student/instuctor relationship is based on trust.  There is a mutually assured destruction pact in force in hundreds of fields.  Aviation, Driving, Construction, Diving, etc.

If you don't trust your instructor, then by all means, walk away.  Your not getting anything from the training anyway.


In flight training, the instructor and student literally trust each other with their lives on every takeoff, every landing, and at all times in between.

The FAA used to require spin training.  They figured out that more people were getting killed in the training then in inadvertant spins.  They stopped requiring spin training.    Personally, I still think spin training is important, but I can understand the FAA's position on it.

When more instructors and students get killed accidental shootings than in real conflicts, you might have an argument.   Till then, you trust your instructor or you walk.  It's your money.

Interesting.  It seems everyone here who’s done this indicates that it’s no big deal.  So where’s this much ballyhooed stress?

The reality is that this drill will continue until somebody gets hurt or killed as a result of a ricochet or a loose sight or whatever.  And then it will stop.

And then everyone will ask why we had to wait for someone to get hurt to realize this.

Ask him if he would like a blindfold and a cigarette.

I would not do this drill with someone I meet for a class and don't meet again. Doing this drill to build TRUST, I can understand. Same reason my brother can shoot over my head while I am kneeling or prone. I've had instructors do that too, but it was a good training opportunity, to learn teamwork. However, there are better ways to induce stress.

I have 911 already dialed on my cell. Then Id go ask for my money back.

Shoot him in the dick in an attempt to end this sort of stupidity.

Quoted: I would make the shot. I would be careful not to sweep the instructor, keep cool and just do it.  No big deal.  Anyone who freaks out about shooting a target when somebody is down range is going to hesitate when the moment comes to actually use their CCW. The student/instuctor relationship is based on trust.  There is a mutually assured destruction pact in force in hundreds of fields.  Aviation, Driving, Construction, Diving, etc. If you don't trust your instructor, then by all means, walk away.  Your not getting anything from the training anyway. In flight training, the instructor and student literally trust each other with their lives on every takeoff, every landing, and at all times in between. The FAA used to require spin training.  They figured out that more people were getting killed in the training then in inadvertant spins.  They stopped requiring spin training.    Personally, I still think spin training is important, but I can understand the FAA's position on it. When more instructors and students get killed accidental shootings than in real conflicts, you might have an argument.   Till then, you trust your instructor or you walk.  It's your money.

Yes, the shot prolly would be no big deal for most people.  The question is, does it really help?  Just because someone would not take that shot when they do not have to (i.e. in a training class) does not mean they cannot or would not be able to take the shot when the "real thing" was happening.   The described scenario is a very controlled situation, and to say the least if you are drawing your CCW in real life the situation would be very fluid and most likely nothing like the classroom situation putting two or three past in the instructor.

Also, I think you comparison to the flight instruction is flawed.  For starters the instruction would have direct access to the controls should the student balloon a landing or get squerilly on take and could take over instantly.

In the shooting scenario described the instruction could not "take over" if someone happens to get loose and throws a rogue round downrange.

I have taken a number of classes and just don't see the benefits of taking a couple shots with a dude next to your target.  It is so controlled, so rote and really so unrealistic to what would actually happen in the field, I don't think there would be much value in it.   Maybe I'm wrong and there is some great benefit to it, but again, I doubt shooting those three rounds would provide an appreciable benefit.  But, if those that have done it found it infinitely valuable, I am wrong.

With that being said, for SWAT mjand Special Ops, Marines and what have you going in a clearing rooms with live ammo for what are considered real world situations, yes, by all means that, I think is needed.

All of us that have done say that after doing so.  I'm sure everyone else, like myself, did feel the pressure bump up a few notches when we first did the drill.

Quoted: Quoted: Where did you get that? SWAT article, for one, plus word of mouth from lots of other folks who know their stuff. Never go near Suarez for ANYTHING.

To specify:

S.W.A.T. magazine, December 2005, SUAREZ INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INTERDICTION COURSE,  Author John Aaron, page 69:

“At that point Suarez decided to demonstrate how he maintained his “warrior edge.”  He stood next to one of the paper terrorist targets and proceeded to have one of his young acolytes fire seven head shots at the target with a Beretta from a distance of about five yards.  He said he wanted to “remember what battle was like.”

Quoted: Shoot him in the dick in an attempt to end this sort of stupidity.

And yes...I am slapping you because you made me snarf my Propel!


Guy's a dumbass, not a warrior...stand 'down'range and you're bound to be lying 'down' on the range shortly....

Quoted: Quoted: you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class.  he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets.  he then asks the first student  in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.   so what as a student do you do? Put the two rounds in the damn target.

+1

Quoted: I can actually shoot very accurately "gangsta style" lol Tried it a few times...That's what I would do. Put one into the target "sideways like YO" and watch him run like hell screaming his head off. ETA: maybe that would teach the idiot a lesson.

Just hope you don't double with him on the wrong side...

Quoted: Quoted: you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class.  he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets.  he then asks the first student  in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.   so what as a student do you do? Leave.  The fucker is crazy and I don't want to be on a hot range with him.

Exactly right.

Quoted: I'd call my brother and tell him to come over. He's never seen anybody get shot before.

LOL!

But seriously, I would never take the shot.  Unless it is life or death, I won't point a gun within 45 degrees of anything I wouldn't want to see shot.

I'd say you'd need to sign releases at the begining.


I'd doubt this would get "sprung" on somone, even in an advanced class.

I feel this is good training, but, I don't think anything but a week long,

high intensity course would prepare me to be standing by somone shooting


I'm not sure it's a good queation.

Quoted: Quoted: you in an advanced pistol class and half way thru the class the instructor stops the class.  he walks to the target line and stands beside one of the targets.  he then asks the first student  in the row to fire two rounds into the target he is standing next to.   so what as a student do you do? The key word is advanced.  I certainly wouldn't like to see this type of training in a beginners class. I know what trainer you're talking about and what I would do depends a lot on the situation. If it was an just an usafe, bullshit stunt for bragging rights then I would leave but if it was a legitimate and controlled training exercise then I would probably stay. There are some very advanced courses where highly trained individuals perform exercises like these. As I mentioned earlier a lot would depend on the situation...

Yes, the keyword is ADVANCED, as in "You have completed the BEGINNERS course.  IF you complete this course, and not before, you will be considered an ADVANCED shooter"

Just because they are in an advanced course doesn't mean they are good enough to complete the advanced course.  It just means they are good enough to get through the beginners course.

Quoted: Quoted: I would make the shot. I would be careful not to sweep the instructor, keep cool and just do it.  No big deal.  Anyone who freaks out about shooting a target when somebody is down range is going to hesitate when the moment comes to actually use their CCW. The student/instuctor relationship is based on trust.  There is a mutually assured destruction pact in force in hundreds of fields.  Aviation, Driving, Construction, Diving, etc. If you don't trust your instructor, then by all means, walk away.  Your not getting anything from the training anyway. In flight training, the instructor and student literally trust each other with their lives on every takeoff, every landing, and at all times in between. Yes, the shot prolly would be no big deal for most people.  The question is, does it really help?  Just because someone would not take that shot when they do not have to (i.e. in a training class) does not mean they cannot or would not be able to take the shot when the "real thing" was happening.   The described scenario is a very controlled situation, and to say the least if you are drawing your CCW in real life the situation would be very fluid and most likely nothing like the classroom situation putting two or three past in the instructor. Also, I think you comparison to the flight instruction is flawed.  For starters the instruction would have direct access to the controls should the student balloon a landing or get squerilly on take and could take over instantly. In the shooting scenario described the instruction could not "take over" if someone happens to get loose and throws a rogue round downrange. I have taken a number of classes and just don't see the benefits of taking a couple shots with a dude next to your target.  It is so controlled, so rote and really so unrealistic to what would actually happen in the field, I don't think there would be much value in it.   Maybe I'm wrong and there is some great benefit to it, but again, I doubt shooting those three rounds would provide an appreciable benefit.  But, if those that have done it found it infinitely valuable, I am wrong. With that being said, for SWAT mjand Special Ops, Marines and what have you going in a clearing rooms with live ammo for what are considered real world situations, yes, by all means that, I think is needed.

Your question is valid.  "Does it really help?"  That is a question only the student can decide.   Most real training has some risk involved.  "Does the risk of the training equal the reward"
Most people feel that the risk, cost and hassle of a CCW is not worth the potential gain.  Most people here would disagree.  It comes down to making a decision based on your experience and values, and it comes down to trusting the instructor.  If I got the feeling that the instructor was crazy, or trying to be bad-ass, I would walk.

The flight instruction analogy is not perfect, but it's closer than you might think.  Do a comparison of Flight Instructor deaths to Gun Instructor deaths.  Bet you anything that the Flight Instructors get out killed 10 to 1.  

Usually the Flt. Inst. can grab the controls and survive, but you have to be quick, lucky and good to do it consitantly.  There are several things that a nervous student can do to off you before you would have  time to react.  There are also mechanical failures that can dead you quick.  For example, I used to instruct in very low weather.  A small mechanical failure in a small airplane in low weather equals great risk. Was it necessary?  No,but flying under the hood, vs. flying in simulated clouds is very different than IFR weather flying.  I wanted my students to have the opportunity to experiance the real thing, and I risked our lives somewhat to give it to them.  I owed them that much.  The difference between real vs. simulated is very real.  

Fact is, Many more students and instructors die in flight training than in weapons training, so the comparison stands.

As I said, It's risk vs. reward as perceived by the student.   I wouldn't be comfortable being the one to go downrange, but if the instructor wanted to?  What the hell, that's good training.    

The scenario as presented is more to build self confidence and to de-program the taboo of firing near others.  It has little to do with building mutual trust.   The value of it would differ with each student.  Ironically, those most opposed to it would probably stand to gain the most.  

It's still a free country (sort of) so don't participate.  Nobody is sticking a gun to your head.