Well, they didn't target children but the founders did not follow the traditional rules of warfare either. For example the Green Mountain Boys from Vermont had snipers that would regularly kill British officers from long distances. IIRC during the days of "honorable"  combat this would have been considered a cowardly and terroristic act. This was touched upon in the movie "The Patriot".

I know it isn't the same as killing non-combatants such as children, but mcviegh's actions are the direct result of the government not caring who they kill either.

Hmm, how about dropping HE and incendiaries on cities inhabited by "noncombatants" from 25,000 ft.? Or how about dropping a small nuke on an undefended city?



You sure about that? How do [b]YOU[/b] know what God had planned for McVeigh after he shuffled off his mortal coil? Isn't it blasphemy to presume to know the Mind of God?

I think McVeigh [b]did[/b] gain a victory of sorts: He made the FBI look like fools (again) with the "missing" documents fiasco, thus providing grist for the conspiracy mill for decades to come; he made of himself a martyr, for those who need martyrs to justify their actions, something the Feds may come to regret; and he is prompting a lot of soul-searching among those who despise what he did, yet in a small corner of their secret-selves still think he had a point but hammered it home in the worst possible way. This last thing may be the most beneficial of all: We may yet figure out a way to roll back the ever-increasing encroachment of the Leviathan in our lives, and avoid a civil war (or worse - totalitarian enslavement) 50 or 75 years down the line.

wrong idea and target. The US Government is not by nature bad, only by practice. The way to change the practice is not to overthrow the government, or cause terrorism, but to 1)pray for our leaders that God might show them their fowl ways. 2) Vote the bad ones out. 3)Elect some of the members from AR-15.com . I would vote for anyone of the people I have seen one here so long as they are also against abortion.
McVeigh is dead. He Deserved to die, any like HIm deserve to die. He did not win, accomplish any goals, demoralize the govenr't etc. He portrayed gun owners as a buicnh of anti-govern't terrorist fools.

I might be able to understand his reasons but his actions were WRONG!!!!
He got what he deserved, only not as painful as it should have been!

As one thinks back on history they can think of things at the time that seemed horrific, only to find later that what was once horrific now seems very courageous. Only time and history will know what part ones actions played in changing a society for better or worse, or none at all.
    Is Tim McVeigh evil? Was Tim McVeigh right? Was Tim McVeigh the first one to trade his life for a cause that one day puts an end to the US Government infringing on American Citizens Rights?  I can not answer that question today or tomorrow. Only Historians will be able to answer these question many years from now. As I see it today Tim McVeigh took a stance in a way he thought was just.  I feel strongly he chose the absolute incorrect and immoral way to make his point and he paid for it with his life.  

well that rules me out [:D]

[;D]who cares what the british think.....

Anglo-saxon lib

Hey Boomer,
Get a clue.
McVeigh killed Americans, he killed innocent children.
He didn't do anything for our governemnt.
Fuck him.
Quit looking for anything good in what he did.
Quit looking for excuses to explain what he did.



>boomer
>What if McVeigh had done this exact same thing >in some foreign country while in the service >of our government. Would you then say that it >was "good", "honorable", and "just" or would >tell every serviceman to fuck off and condemn >them to hell? I guess our good old government >just doesn't appreciate having it's own >tacticts used against it.

Post from DocH -

Hmmm, you're equating what McVeigh did with what the USArmy Air Force did during WWII to an enemy against whom we were fighting tooth and nail in an unprovoked war?  Man, that is just plain silly!

With American military planners expecting a possible 1,000,000 American casualties to be incurred in a ground invasion of the Japanese home islands, what was Pres. Truman to do?

We dropped leaflets, informed 'friendly' gov'ts of our intentions, and debated it internally. I
suppose we should have telegraphed the Japanese High Command a copy of the proposed flight plan for the [i]Enola Gay[/i].

Some naysayers wanted a 'demonstration' bomb
detonated in order to show Japanese officials what the new bomb was capable of doing.

I say we did 'demonstrate' the new bomb. Over Hiroshima.  The Japanese High Command diddled
over the next 48 hours and we demonstrated it again. This time over Nagasaki. The next one was
scheduled to be dropped on Tokyo when it had arrived in the South Pacific.

Some Japanese historians claim the atomic bombs were a salvation for their culture.  It ended the war more humanely than a large scale invasion, which if it had occurred would have been as Adm. Bull Halsey had predicted on the evening of December 7, 1941, when viewing the devestation at Pearl Harbor, he turned to the officers on the bridge and declared:

[size=3]'Gentlemen, when this war is over, Japanese will be a language spoken only in Hell!'[/size=3]

Truman would not have been impeached if it came out later that the US had possessed a weapon that would have made such an invasion unnecessary - he would have been hung! by Gold Star Mothers, no less.

Eric The Hun[>]:)]

Too bad he wasn't a government employee when he did it. Then he would have received a medal, huh?

Look, I'm not an apologist for McVeigh nor do I condone what he did. This issue is just a little more complex for me than simple black and white. The government simply cannot expect to behave in certain manners without eventually provoking a response of this nature.

Ah, good. Someone has risen to the bait...

My post refers to the following, earlier, post regarding the killing of "innocent" noncombatants:



So your argument is that there can, indeed, be certain justifications for the killing of non-combatants in a war. McVeigh believed he was waging a war against the government. In WWII we were waging a war against somebody else's government. Explain to me how [b]your[/b] justifications are different from Mc Veigh's, please.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, there is a difference. But what exactly [b]is[/b] the difference? I can't articulate it, I'm hoping someone else can.

Partly, I think some of this talk about McVeigh being a gutless coward, etc. is so much sour-grapes. Similar to the name-calling after the Cole bombing. Sorry, but I don't think that the pair of Muslims that crippled a $1 billion U.S. asset with a couple thousand bucks of explosives and a dinghy were gutless cowards. They were a determined and formidable foe. We underestimate such people at our peril.

I compare Tim McVeigh to anti-slavery radical John Brown. John Brown, like McVeigh, had very well-founded concerns about "the way things was" in America. Like McVeigh, he killed innocent people when he slaughtered pro-slavery settlers in the West. Like McVeigh, he attacked a U.S. Government installation and was eventually executed for his crimes.

Oddly enough, a popular song amongst Union soldiers during the Civil War went: "John Brown's body lies a-moldering in the grave, but his truth goes marching on." I guess terrorists do sometimes become heroes when it serves the purposes of the state.

I think those who call McVeigh a coward are just parroting a cliche. Sure, his actions were wrong. Way, WAY wrong. But is a soldier in war who risks his life charging against machinegun fire up the wrong hill a coward? McVeigh did what he stupidly thought was the right thing to do. He thought it was justified. He thought it would be productive. Most likely he was dead wrong on every count, but he did what he thought was best at great risk to himself. I don't see him as a coward.

And who is to say no good will ever come of it? I'm not saying the good can ever cancel out the bad. You can't defend all people's rights by taking away ALL the rights of some people. Killing kids was really bad; how can you ever balance that out? And sure he squashed the somewhat dubious militia movement. And he terminated the so-called "Republican Revolution" -- though waiting for Republicans to restore liberty is like waiting for raccoons to save your chickens from foxes.

But think about it. Remember how Congress suddenly got all motivated to hold mock hearings on Waco right after the bombing? Before that, Waco was old news. Black helicopter stuff. And don't you suppose the fact that Horiuchi suddenly MIGHT get prosecuted has something to do with McVeigh's execution? The balance of guilt has tipped; it's time for government to make a sacrifice to the copycat gods.

So if some are saying to beware of bombings around or on anniversaries of the scumbags needling, and some are looking for good in what scumbag did, I'd wager also you're conspiracy people who think we've got undercover agents at ar15.com. Doncha think today would've been an EXTRA special day for them to monitor? and especially this thread?

I'm sure you already thought of that, but just a little something special to help you get a good nights rest.

Sorry I can't resist sometimes, like shaking the ant farm, ya just gotta do it.

Yeah, I thought of that. That's why I got my real name in my profile. I ain't doing nuthin' wrong.

Maybe today is a good day to make our voices heard in Washington without even having to write our congressmen.

A lot of emotion has been brought up by this topic, which is 100% understandable.  I would like to reiterate my main point.  Timothy McVeigh succeded in controling the government and showing what one determined man could do.   That is if you believe he was the only one involved.

[i]I stay this and I want you all to listen very closely:[/i]

[b]If more people took action like McVeigh did whenever the current government infringed upon the rights of the people they would think twice before doing so.[/b]

Randall Flagg

Dont be such a dick. I realize emotions can run from "who cares" to "kill the bastard". But, wrong or right everyone has thier own opinion. Hell, I used to tell anyone who was anti-gun to fu*k off,until I realised if I could convince them, we would have another ally on our side.

[:D][:D][:D][:D]

This must mean every time the izzis kill a palistintian child in a rocket attack in retaliation for protesters throwing rocks,We should brand the izzis terrorists???????

I think the scariest aspect of Tim McVeigh is that there is not a whole lot of separation between his beliefs and mine. He is the country's "worst mass murderer" and I can understand why he did it. I don't agree with his actions, and I am saddened all the way around.
 It shouldn't be this way. People like McV should make us all scratch our heads and say "WTF?!", like Dahmer or Gacy. It's a sure symptom of the sickness that we as a nation are suffering from when a major league psycho-killer is almost just like us.

Post from

If there is a military need for a certain act to be taken, e.g. such as bombing a ball-bearing factory in the Ruhr, the fact that there may be civilian noncombatants in the vicinity that could possibly be killed or injured is not within our control.  That would be in the control of the Germans, and they should move their civilian populations away from areas known to be target-rich environments.

Otherwise, the enemy would surround any target of a military nature with schools and day-care centers, hospitals, etc., knowing that those
sentimental, overly moralistic Americans would never intentionally target such areas.  

Much as Saddam Hussein did during the Gulf War!

But the Brits and Americans didn't start bombing the Ruhr in 1935, or 1937, or even 1939,
we waited until war was declared.

Every German patrol would then consist of the usual riflemen, grenadiers, and, of yeah, the requisite [i]Mutter und Kind[/i] as a talisman against American return fire.

When did little Timmy declare war on the U.S.?
I'm certain that it should have been carried in all the newspapers.

Eric The Hun[>]:)]

I believe he declared war about 6 years ago in a town call Oklahoma City, he made the first strike!!!


gunmonkey,

Your statement is exactly the point of this whole topic,  I think that some of us truely know that the time has come where words are no longer enough....action must be taken.  This was part of McVeigh's legacy, not just showing us that it could be done, but also showing the consequences for those actions.  Terrorism works.....but it comes at the price of the instigators life, a price than [i]must[/i] be paid!!!

Randall Flagg

Originally posted by Randall Flag



Is that kind of like the Japanese declaring war AFTER they bombed Pearl Harbor?  I suppose they were justified too.  At least they had the balls to attack a military target that could fight back.  Man this is unbelievable.

huh?

Seeing this from outside the square ( I am Australian living in Sydney 25yrs Army Service,yada,yday yada...), and I am as right winged as you can get (anti immigration, anti gay, anti Asian etc, pro gun, freedom of choice, etc. Monster Tim has paid for the crime with his life, and thats good. The whole world was watching, not just the USA. As for you standing up for him, you would not be saying that if it was your wife or child who was killed. Get with the program. Blokes like Tim are dangerous, and I am glad he is gone. If I can be critical, too much media attention. A simple gallows, and hang the bastard, but do not sensationalise the event. His victims deserve at least that much respect. Shame on you for standing up to his cause. We have our freedoms and we all gotta pay taxes (I hate it  as much as anyone), but to fight a war against his own government, that is just plain stupidity. I am sure many of you Americans see things this way. Here is Australia we cant own SA rifles, pump action SGs, so enjoy your freedoms. At least we can vote and say our piece, and although I dont agree with what you say, you are fortunate enough to say it without fear of being tracked down and gaoled (or shot). Freedom of speach is a privillage these days. Other places are not so lucky as us westerners! I need a beer.

If you say that McVeigh fired the first shot to start a war, then I know what side I am on, and that not McVeighs, not by a fucking long shot.
Standby to standby......