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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:40:48 AM EDT
[#1]
LOL, I would be the test case on that one.
Even though there is absolutely zero difference between that and a semi-auto AR, it looks scarier to BATFE agents. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:42:04 AM EDT
[#2]
you can drill out the hole, but an auto sear won't fit unless the inside of the rear of the reciever is opened up.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:55:38 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And I don't know about you, but nobody is going to stick me into a cell because of an engraved circle. This is fucking ridiculous. I don't even own anything like this, but this is far over the line into tar and feathers territory. I've said this before, but the first answer to this is to start shunning people that do this nonsense. Treat them like lepers. You're not going to get any argument from me. I agree with you. The good news is for the first time in a long time we have someone in the White House who looks like the real deal who is not afraid to shake things up. If he is planning on doing what people are saying he is planning on doing, the ATF is going to suffer by default. If his kids are the real deal, from what at least Don Jr. has said, we might finally get some help here. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:09:36 AM EDT
[#4]
Somebody needs their pecker smacked over that bullshit.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:13:37 AM EDT
[#5]
I feel safer now.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:18:30 AM EDT
[#6]
Preposterous
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:21:12 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fuck em. Federal civil rights lawsuits are needed. With jailtime for the individual agents who carried out said policy and the people who drafted and ordered said policy. And if this chills the willingness of people to apply for employment with the BATFE... so much the better. Flawed legal avenue. Instead the larcenous felons need to be arrested and prosecuted. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:22:59 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days. It was taught by insensitive people in its environment to behave like a SEMI, but down inside, it always knew it was a select-fire identity. It still wants to be suppressed though for some reason. It's not confused, just constrained by an unfair society. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:30:52 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what about the FN Military series rifles, are they all considered machine guns now? They have an engraved ring... FATF! What we need is contractual government sales by everyone in the firearms industry. Every firearms, ammunition, clothing, holster, gear, armor, vehicle manufacturer needs to band together and make certain conditions of their contracts. 1. None of their products will be issued to, borrowed by, transferred to, loaned to, assigned, or otherwise placed in the physical possession of BATF or any of its agents. An organization specifically tasked with violating the Bill of Rights deserves nothing but severe criminal charges, to include treason. In the meantime, every manufacturer and every owner should just have the AUTO sear hole engraved, then send them the bill for the work. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:59:24 AM EDT
[#10]
thread title should really include "ho, ho, ho."
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Posted: 1/24/2017 5:25:06 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryI miss Showbread |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 5:41:45 AM EDT
[#12]
ATF is dicks.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:35:13 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow unbelievable. Literally unbelievable. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:47:07 AM EDT
[#14]
What's funny is that I think I remember Troy saying the engraved sear pin hole isn't even in the correct location. I think it is moved forward a little so if some one did drill it, it wouldn't be functional.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:49:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I really, really, really want to see the letter they're having him sign. It will be a forfeiture letter. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:53:24 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryThis is probably the biggest most important piece of legislation I've seen so far. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:57:51 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is probably the biggest most important piece of legislation I've seen so far. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:14:02 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's funny is that I think I remember Troy saying the engraved sear pin hole isn't even in the correct location. I think it is moved forward a little so if some one did drill it, it wouldn't be functional. Assuming you did the other bs to fit the autosear, would just have to tweak the autosear to make up for the hole being off. Unless you made it off by quite a bit, then it would look like shit and you wouldn't do it anyway. It's all bullshit though, could prob eyeball and hand drill that hole close enough to make it work fine. Now that they are aware, I would expect a mass recall and panic like they did years ago with ak/mak90 with the 3rd pin stuff. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:16:01 AM EDT
[#19]
Ho Ho Ho
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:16:23 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is probably the biggest most important piece of legislation I've seen so far. Reading a bit now but what's your take? reigning in how ATF just decides the rules based on the weather? |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:23:21 AM EDT
[#21]
Since the pin is just engraved on, will the ATF accept if I engrave torch cuts on the receiver as demiling?
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:23:51 AM EDT
[#22]
You know what the ATF says.
Never a machine gun, always a machine gun. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:43:27 AM EDT
[#23]
I think the part that fks us is writing vague shit like this into a law "or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger".
Every ar on the planet can be made to fire more than 1 shot per trigger pull in about 30sec. Maybe not reliably, but doesn't need to be reliable to be a machine gun. Thats pretty fkn "readily" already, nitpicking a mark on the receiver is so far out in left field it ain't funny. What's next? They gonna go after the guys that have "auto" marked lowers because it says it fires more than 1 shot per pull 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:52:53 AM EDT
[#24]
Begs the question of how they would interpret a lower that has 'NO STEP' (or something similar) where the letter 'O' is near the dreaded pin hole location?
I could see someone engraving their SBR lower with their trust name in that manner. Pin hole or just a letter in a Trust name? 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:58:14 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reading a bit now but what's your take? reigning in how ATF just decides the rules based on the weather? It would apply to all agency law. Courts are pretty much hamstrung under chevron to uphold the agency. Read a quick primer here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevron_U.S.A.,_Inc._v._Natural_Resources_Defense_Council,_Inc. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:58:47 AM EDT
[#26]
I thought Trump was going to fix all these problems.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 8:06:35 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh for fucks sake. Sounds like some nitwit of a field agent knows a little about guns and started running amok with knowing the depth of his ignorance. FWIW, I've had to explain to a BATFE agent what a sear was and what it looked like during an inventory/inspection. Some of them can be just jaw-droppingly stupid. If I squint real hard and try to image what its like to have a lobotomy, I think BATFE's angle is that because its an 80% there is intent to complete it by using the engraved holes to complete the receiver - including the engraved sear hole. To them, I think 80% means you're going to do it yourself, and if there's a marking for a 3rd hole, they think you must be going to do that too. Because Troy's receiver is already complete, there is nothing for you to do, so you wouldn't be drilling that engraved hole. Its stupid and makes no sense, but thats my best guess at their inane logic. meh... don't care, outside of this one random incident you will never here about this again |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 8:08:01 AM EDT
[#28]
would this not be 1st and 2nd amdt. as well?.... 1st, because you are drawing a pic "3rd hole" in protest of a dumb law.....
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Posted: 1/24/2017 8:12:55 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is probably the biggest most important piece of legislation I've seen so far. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 8:18:33 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What we need is contractual government sales by everyone in the firearms industry. Every firearms, ammunition, clothing, holster, gear, armor, vehicle manufacturer needs to band together and make certain conditions of their contracts. 1. None of their products will be issued to, borrowed by, transferred to, loaned to, assigned, or otherwise placed in the physical possession of BATF or any of its agents. An organization specifically tasked with violating the Bill of Rights deserves nothing but severe criminal charges, to include treason. In the meantime, every manufacturer and every owner should just have the AUTO sear hole engraved, then send them the bill for the work.  ....MAGA
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Posted: 1/24/2017 8:20:50 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The agent that tried to walk out of my shop with a customers firearm claiming THAT was illegal would have a bad day. The law regarding MGs is clear in how they function. That is firearm theft. Theft of a firearm is a felony, and I will treat you as such. And what is it that you would do? |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 8:42:25 AM EDT
[#32]
Ok I want to make sure I have the facts straight....
If the employee is not an agent the "taking" employee will have a real legal and civil problem. Even an agent would have to have a serious reason for taking property without a warrant. "Seizure" does require a warrant for arrest made out for the property. (ask me how I know). Is there a warrant and has anybody seen it? I will go out on a limb here and guess that a new minted employee (not agent) just attended one of FTB/FATD classes on firearms identification and was told that "indicating" a hole is not allowed (though faking one would not have been addressed in said class) and the employee did not know the distinction and went full bore freak out on it.....Now the ATF will have to either circle the wagons and protect the employee or cut bait and immediately give it back....Either way I doubt there will be any criminal charge as this will make any AUSA run for cover as it will embarrass all who touch it going forward. This is what is referred to at the ATF as a "career ender".... Edit : as I now see they "pressured" the signed "release"....I would have made them get a warrant, but then again I am known to do things other folks would not do..... |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 9:35:08 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I mean, would it be a machine gun if you did the exact same thing with a magic marker? If not, why not? LOL forget marking the hole. Just write "This is a machine gun" on the side with a Sharpie. Extra points for writing "AK-47" on the side, too. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 9:41:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days. ROFL. Well done, there. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 9:48:59 AM EDT
[#35]
It's checkmate once the ATF gets taken to court and is ordered to once and for all define exactly what legally constitutes a machinegun, write it down, and then live with it forever.
That needs to be the ultimate goal of every court case. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 9:50:03 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You cannot infer what my intent was at that time. I have bad news: Juries infer intent hundreds of times a day across this nation. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 9:50:52 AM EDT
[#37]
This forfeiture brought to you by the letter O.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 9:56:16 AM EDT
[#38]
Does it count if I draw a circle with a Sharpie ? What If I write trans instead of full ? I have a lower I will donate for a test case right now ?
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:02:36 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Begs the question of how they would interpret a lower that has 'NO STEP' (or something similar) where the letter 'O' is near the dreaded pin hole location? I could see someone engraving their SBR lower with their trust name in that manner. Pin hole or just a letter in a Trust name? |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:04:19 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATF has already confiscated a member's finished 80% lower from a well known anodizer's shop after agents who were there on an unrelated matter saw the engraving. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So... it's a pre-op trans-functional semi-automatic to automatic firearm? They might say that, but until they actually arrest you for it, I don't think they truly believe it. ATF has already confiscated a member's finished 80% lower from a well known anodizer's shop after agents who were there on an unrelated matter saw the engraving. Uh-oh, better call Nolo. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:07:44 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you can drill out the hole, but an auto sear won't fit unless the inside of the rear of the reciever is opened up. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:07:52 AM EDT
[#42]
What would "Dave" have done?
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:08:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends on your definition of the moment of fabrication. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days. An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM. "readily restored to..." That has to be the angle they're taking; they'll argue that marking the hole makes it easy to drill. If you wanted to troll ATF you could do an engraved 3rd hole in the wrong place by 1mm. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:10:39 AM EDT
[#44]
Since the third pin hole issue, I have always known it was a no no to make any dimple, marks, or anything indicating where to drill on the receiver without a jig. I'm surprised people are surprised by this.
I think we should all write letters.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:17:07 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you can drill out the hole, but an auto sear won't fit unless the inside of the rear of the reciever is opened up. I get the feeling that the guys who are so worried about having accuracy as in to engrave a third pin in the exact sear hole position, will probably also be buying lower shelf lowers to keep accurate. It would be even worse if someone engraved pins in a fake offset and have a high shelf or fenced lower
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:17:29 AM EDT
[#46]
They would shit over a lower marked like that with a binary trigger installed.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:17:33 AM EDT
[#47]
Wasn't that the old atf? Will be interesting to see If the post 1/20 atf feels the same about things or starts trying to do all them back... Maybe Trump should tell them to make it into a machine gun to prove their case.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:17:42 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://i.imgur.com/HLBFvb3.jpg Lol. That's a good one. Someone posted this the other day:  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:18:05 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't get why people are so up in arms about this shit. I don't get why people want to have "fake" pinholes. I can't stand imitation or fake shit like that, many go as far (in order to comply legally) to make the engravings out of spec.... why? You now not only have a fake hole that is obvious, but you now have a fake hole in the wrong location. Since the third pin hole issue, I have always known it was a no no to make any dimple, marks, or anything indicating where to drill on the receiver without a jig. I'm surprised people are surprised by this. I think we should all write letters. I don't care why someone wants something engraved on their lower. It doesn't hurt me so why should I care? People aren't up in arms about engraving, they're up in arms about a government taking people's property under ridiculous pretense. If you can't see why people would have a problem with that then you're in the wrong place. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:20:21 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't get why people are so up in arms about this shit. I don't get why people want to have "fake" pinholes. I can't stand imitation or fake shit like that, many go as far (in order to comply legally) to make the engravings out of spec.... why? You now not only have a fake hole that is obvious, but you now have a fake hole in the wrong location. Since the third pin hole issue, I have always known it was a no no to make any dimple, marks, or anything indicating where to drill on the receiver without a jig. I'm surprised people are surprised by this. I think we should all write letters. You should move to California. Why the fuck does it matter what someone else wants to do with their property? |
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