The two Planes in Russia were shot down by the Russian military. - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The two Planes in Russia were shot down by the Russian military. (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 8/26/2004 5:01:45 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
The new Russian S400 and S500 SAMs have ranges in the 300-500mi range.

The Bear has always favored ground directed interceptors and SAMs.

They do favor SAMs and ground control. Russian command and control is a lot more rigid and centralized than in the US military. Their methods were designed during the days of the Red Army to keep control of the masses of poorly trained (by Western standards) people they had. The techniques they use today are legacy from those days, although there have been efforts to change. Most of those have gotten nowhere due to money issues. Might want to recheck those range numbers, though. For some reason, even today, Russian capabilities are overblown.

But the reason it's so difficult to believe that they shot down their own airplanes is because of the rigidity of the command structure. The information would have been kicked all the way up to Putin, he would have made the political decision to shoot down the aircraft, and then it would have been passed down to the guys in the field (if it didn't happen that way, The Neutral Observer would be shocked). Only then would the interceptors have been scrambled or the SAM crews woken up.

An hour to do this in? Not likely.

Posted: 8/26/2004 5:13:46 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Spoke to some relatives and friends today from Russia. The word is the planes were hi-jacked by Chechen terrorists and the Russians responded with force because they were afraid they were going to crash the planes into one of the nuclear facilities which has 4 reactors.

What happened to the 5 or 6 missing passengers that checked their luggage and didn't show for the flight? This looked like a bombing based on that info...

Posted: 8/26/2004 5:15:56 PM EDT

[#3]

If they were hijacked and shot down by the russkies, then good on em!

I hate bloody terrorists.

Posted: 8/26/2004 5:50:27 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I still vote to give EVERY passenger a Taser Gun.

As long as the passengers have the terrorists outnumbered they are mathematically guaranteed to be subdued.

IMHO

Da' Lab

"I said more peanuts, bitch!" ZZZZap.

Damn I spit my coke on he screen .

Posted: 8/26/2004 5:57:06 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
extra layers of tinfoil added to head.

Posted: 8/26/2004 8:23:03 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Spoke to some relatives and friends today from Russia. The word is the planes were hi-jacked by Chechen terrorists and the Russians responded with force because they were afraid they were going to crash the planes into one of the nuclear facilities which has 4 reactors.

What happened to the 5 or 6 missing passengers that checked their luggage and didn't show for the flight? This looked like a bombing based on that info...

Sounds like a bombing to me aswell. Im just dropping a dime on whats being talked or rumored about in Russia. We may never know what exactly happened, well at least not anytime in the near future.

Posted: 8/26/2004 8:26:57 PM EDT

[#7]

It would appear that the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few.

Posted: 8/26/2004 8:27:21 PM EDT

[#8]

The world may never know.

CRC

Posted: 8/27/2004 12:09:17 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Sad, but I hope it's true. Word gets out that we just take out any hi-jacked airline, then the hijackers will stop doing it. There is no value to them anymore.

TXL

Why would that stop them from doing it? Thats their whole purpose, kill the passangers and instill fear in people.

Posted: 8/27/2004 5:16:28 AM EDT

[#10]

Chechen explosive residue found: http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/reuters20040827_88.html

Chechen Islamic Terrorists claim hijacking: http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/reuters20040827_13.html

TNO: They wouldn't launch the interceptors or activate the SAMs so that they could be ready if the orders came?

Posted: 8/27/2004 5:34:24 AM EDT

[#11]

Make no mistake about it, once terrorists take over a jet it then becomes a bomb ready to kill thousands at the drop of a hat. They do not care if people are hurt they would rather it be filled with people to possibly keep the Government from shooting it down. You do not see them taking over Fed-Ex or UPS plains do ya. Nothing to stop the government from shooting that sucker down huh.

In fact even if they shoot a loaded jet down they still get what they wanted more dead people.

Better to make damn sure that they can't take jets. No damned if you do damned if you don't type deals then.

Posted: 8/27/2004 8:19:54 AM EDT

[#12]

Clearly looks like it was bombs planted by the Chechnyans.

They found residue from a type of explosive that was used in the apartment building bombs in Moscow (Hexogene)

Islamic web site claiming responsibilty.

Russians are looking at two females, one on each plane, who have Chechnyan names and are the only two people that no one has called to claim the bodies or to check on them.

Posted: 8/27/2004 8:50:21 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Make no mistake about it, once terrorists take over a jet it then becomes a bomb ready to kill thousands at the drop of a hat. They do not care if people are hurt they would rather it be filled with people to possibly keep the Government from shooting it down. You do not see them taking over Fed-Ex or UPS plains do ya. Nothing to stop the government from shooting that sucker down huh.

In fact even if they shoot a loaded jet down they still get what they wanted more dead people.

Better to make damn sure that they can't take jets. No damned if you do damned if you don't type deals then.

Unless you have armed crew members onboard as a line of defense against boxcutter-wielding hijackers. Naaaah, on second thought it makes more sense to shoot down a passenger-filled airliner than give pistols to the pilots.

Posted: 8/27/2004 8:54:49 AM EDT

[#14]

Hexogen=
Plastic-bonded explosives (PBX) with a high content of explosive components (80-85%) are obtained by varying the hexogen granulometric composition and the optimization of polyurethane binder composition based on polyether polyol. Hexogen with bimodal, trimodal and continual particle size distributions is used. The best characteristics of production and full reproducibility of PBX quality are achieved by using the trimodal RDX. Physical, chemical and mechanical characteristics, shock sensitivity and detonation parameters for the Chapman-Jouguet (CJ) condition are determined. The maximum values of detonation parameters are achieved with the composition of 84% hexogen and 16% polyurethane binder (D=8120 m/s, P=220 kbar). These results are compared with the measured detonation velocity and the pressure results of composite explosives based on octogen and PBX theoretical detonation parameters.

Also called cyclonite, or hexogen, RDX is one of the main explosives in torpedoes, rockets, and bomb warheads. It is also used as in detonators, blasting caps, and demolition charges. It can also be used as a rat poison, and was used for medicinal purposes in the early twentieth century.

Posted: 8/27/2004 9:08:47 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

TNO: They wouldn't launch the interceptors or activate the SAMs so that they could be ready if the orders came?

Russians usually don't do things that way.

Posted: 8/27/2004 9:10:27 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Hexogen=
Plastic-bonded explosives (PBX) with a high content of explosive components (80-85%) are obtained by varying the hexogen granulometric composition and the optimization of polyurethane binder composition based on polyether polyol. Hexogen with bimodal, trimodal and continual particle size distributions is used. The best characteristics of production and full reproducibility of PBX quality are achieved by using the trimodal RDX. Physical, chemical and mechanical characteristics, shock sensitivity and detonation parameters for the Chapman-Jouguet (CJ) condition are determined. The maximum values of detonation parameters are achieved with the composition of 84% hexogen and 16% polyurethane binder (D=8120 m/s, P=220 kbar). These results are compared with the measured detonation velocity and the pressure results of composite explosives based on octogen and PBX theoretical detonation parameters.

Also called cyclonite, or hexogen, RDX is one of the main explosives in torpedoes, rockets, and bomb warheads. It is also used as in detonators, blasting caps, and demolition charges. It can also be used as a rat poison, and was used for medicinal purposes in the early twentieth century.

RDX is one of the chief components of C-4, if The Neutral Observer remembers correctly. Plus a whole bunch of other things. RDX is one of the better explosives out there, as far as general utility goes.

Posted: 8/27/2004 9:18:16 AM EDT

[#17]

Now that more information is availible to the Russian public, sit back and watch the fireworks.

Those that think the guys on AR-15 are bloodthirsty in their calls for vengeance...well, you ain't seen nothing until you've seen the Russian people pissed off.

Posted: 8/27/2004 9:24:49 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Sad, but I hope it's true. Word gets out that we just take out any hi-jacked airline, then the hijackers will stop doing it. There is no value to them anymore.

TXL

I honestly think 9/11 has ruined hijacking, at least in the US. They told them that they were going to be ok as long as they did as they were told, and then they wound up being flown into buildings. I don't know about you, but if I'm on a hijacked plane, I'm fighting back with whatever I can.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Posted: 8/27/2004 12:35:22 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The new Russian S400 and S500 SAMs have ranges in the 300-500mi range.

The Bear has always favored ground directed interceptors and SAMs.

They do favor SAMs and ground control. Russian command and control is a lot more rigid and centralized than in the US military. Their methods were designed during the days of the Red Army to keep control of the masses of poorly trained (by Western standards) people they had. The techniques they use today are legacy from those days, although there have been efforts to change. Most of those have gotten nowhere due to money issues. Might want to recheck those range numbers, though. For some reason, even today, Russian capabilities are overblown.

But the reason it's so difficult to believe that they shot down their own airplanes is because of the rigidity of the command structure. The information would have been kicked all the way up to Putin, he would have made the political decision to shoot down the aircraft, and then it would have been passed down to the guys in the field (if it didn't happen that way, The Neutral Observer would be shocked). Only then would the interceptors have been scrambled or the SAM crews woken up.

An hour to do this in? Not likely.

We had to "overestimate" the capabilities in order to get the budget to meet/beat aforementioned capabilities in the arms race....... and, yes, IMHO, the ends did justify the means.

A remnant of that?

Posted: 8/27/2004 12:38:29 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
The world may never know.

CRC

What is, "How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop," Alex?

http://www.tootsie.com/memoriesLicksMachine.html

Posted: 8/27/2004 12:45:23 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Sad, but I hope it's true. Word gets out that we just take out any hi-jacked airline, then the hijackers will stop doing it. There is no value to them anymore.

TXL

I honestly think 9/11 has ruined hijacking, at least in the US. They told them that they were going to be ok as long as they did as they were told, and then they wound up being flown into buildings. I don't know about you, but if I'm on a hijacked plane, I'm fighting back with whatever I can.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

+1.

For the record, and FWIW, no Texans were on board any of the hijacked planes. One was in the WTC, and three in the Pentagon, or vice versa. I seriously doubt any "old school" Aussies were on board, either. It's that whole "Crocodile Dundee" mentality:

"That's not a knife. Now THAT'S a knife."

<slash "3x">

"Just ~~kids~~ terrorists having fun!"

Posted: 8/27/2004 12:48:26 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sad, but I hope it's true. Word gets out that we just take out any hi-jacked airline, then the hijackers will stop doing it. There is no value to them anymore.

TXL

I honestly think 9/11 has ruined hijacking, at least in the US. They told them that they were going to be ok as long as they did as they were told, and then they wound up being flown into buildings. I don't know about you, but if I'm on a hijacked plane, I'm fighting back with whatever I can.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

+1.

For the record, and FWIW, no Texans were on board any of the hijacked planes. One was in the WTC, and three in the Pentagon, or vice versa. I seriously doubt any "old school" Aussies were on board, either. It's that whole "Crocodile Dundee" mentality:

"That's not a knife. Now THAT'S a knife."

<slash "3x">

"Just ~~kids~~ terrorists having fun!"

P.S. This is not to say that all the ppl on all the planes were sheep, or even that all non-Texans are. You don't have to be from Texas to have a "Texan" (or "old-school-Aussie-Mc-J") mentality.

Posted: 8/27/2004 1:52:16 PM EDT

[#23]

They are now saying it was a sucide bombing by a muslim women on each plane. In each case a muslim woman bought a ticket less than an hour before the flight and was the last person on the plane.

Posted: 8/27/2004 2:51:51 PM EDT

[#24]

From a "Weekly Strategic Breifing" that I receive.

* Chechen terrorists behind attack on Russian aircraft - There is
mounting evidence that Chechen terrorists were behind the almost
simultaneous crash of two Russian passenger aircraft yesterday. Both planes
took off from a Moscow airport and were bound for destinations in the
southern regions of the area - Volgograd and the Black Sea resort of Sochi.
Both pilots managed to activate the hijack alert system shortly before the
planes vanished from radar screens and in both cases the crash killed all on
board. The death toll is currently at 89. In the early hours of the incident
the moderate Chechen opposition denied having anything to do with the attack
but elements of the Chechen insurgency have been threatening some kind of
violence against Russia in the days leading up to Presidential elections in
the war ravaged region.

* Planes behaved erratically and pilots sent warnings - Initial
investigations have revealed some very disturbing connections and indicate
that the two planes had been intended for more damaging missions. There are
also indications that the Russian military played a bigger role in the
situation than has been reported thus far. The accounts are jumbled at this
point and it may take some time to discover the truth amid the rumors but
some facts have started to emerge. The two planes had already deviated from
their course by a considerable distance before the hijacking alert was
activated and both appeared to be headed towards a target. One was on its
way back towards Moscow and the other was heading for the Black Sea resort
where Vladimir Putin is currently on holiday. The intent seemed to be to
replicate the 9/11 attack in the US and it is also apparent that the Russian
Air Force had been monitoring the aircraft for several minutes as attempts
were made to determine why the planes were changing course. It has been
reported that both planes exploded in the air and at altitudes of some
30,000 feet.

* Very likely that Russian Air Force shot both planes down - There
are persistent stories that indicate that both planes were deliberately shot
down by either ground based missiles or by Russian military aircraft.
Accounts have been collected from anonymous sources that state that at least
six Russian fighter planes had intercepted the two commercial airliners and
that after repeated warnings and attempts to force a landing the MIGs fired
missiles and brought the jets down. The Russian military had indicated in
previous statements that aircraft that appeared to acting in suspicious ways
would be shot down and it now appears that this threat has been carried out.
Another factor that lends credence to the theory that the planes were being
used as a weapon is that there appeared to be no passengers on either flight
that held special significance to either al-Qaeda or the Chechens. There
were a small group of local Jewish officials, no Americans and no high
ranking Russian officials. They were ordinary flights full of ordinary
people.

Posted: 8/27/2004 3:42:28 PM EDT

[#25]

How quickly some of you guys forget.

Up to 9/11 every domestic hijacking of a commercial airline that I’m aware of resulted in a diversion to Cuba where the hijacker was thrown into jail, the plane refueled, and the passengers arrived at their destination a few hours late.

The risk of bringing down an airliner and killing everyone on board to avoid a side trip to Cuba really wasn’t in the cards.

That changed after the first three planes hit their targets. The passengers on Flight 93 made the change, yet there’s no reason to believe they were any different than the passengers on the other three flights – except that they knew what was happening.

I don’t for a minute doubt that Peggy Olsen would have put up a fight if she had known what was going on – she seemed to be a pretty feisty lady.

Knowledge is power.

Posted: 8/27/2004 6:05:56 PM EDT

[#26]

My wife just read on the one of the Russian newspaper Internet sites that the AQ just claimed responsibility for the bombing of the two planes. Supposedly, it was the work of the "Black Widows" which is a female Chechnian Moslem terrorist group that planted the bombs. The Chechnyan Presidential election will be on Sunday.

wganz
¶

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The two Planes in Russia were shot down by the Russian military. (Page 2 of 2)

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