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Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:20:20 AM EDT
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QFT
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This isn't Obama.  Don't get me wrong, he's part of the problem, but it's not him.

The fact that student loans are, in large part, guaranteed by the gov't allows allows lender to lend to whomever, wherever, whenever with no consequence from the risk involved.

The universities, knowing this, can charge whatever they want, knowing that the students will get the loans to go to college.

This is amplified by the fact that the mentality of today is that you MUST go to college, no matter what the major or what your life goal is.  YOU MUST GO!

Couple this with one of the largest, if not the largest drawdown in the labor force in the last century and you've got a student loan debt crisis staring you in the face.  There simply aren't enough jobs for the "college graduates" to fill.


QFT


Except it is not true.

TRG
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:20:32 AM EDT
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Y'all's logic is flawed.

Are car loans the reason cars are so expensive?

TRG
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If car loans were given out to anyone with a pulse, were made non-dischargeable, and car ownership was pushed by society as the end rather than a means, yeah... car prices would skyrocket.

Oh, and the car was sold in 4 pieces over a period of 4 years.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:22:33 AM EDT
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NO, I paid mine and so should they.
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There's an easy fix to the student loan crisis: make the debt dischargeable in bankruptcy. It won't ever happen, but this would cause lenders to be much more strict in their underwriting.


NO, I paid mine and so should they.


While I agree with the sentiment..... you do realize that risk in loaning is what makes it feasible to charge interest and make money for loans right? Currently there is no risk for Student Loans. So the theory of charging interest and making money form loans really doesn't apply. Yet banks are trying to make it apply with the help of .gov.

I'm all for them making money but they need to do it the same way we do..... with the risk included. It would filter a lot this "everyone gets free money" style of lending we currently have. And solve the student loan crisis overnight.

Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:23:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:24:06 AM EDT
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 I would just like to thank the OP and the other posters on this board for so graciously paying off my student loans!  
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So who thinks this leads down a road to where the gov will forgive student loans?



 I would just like to thank the OP and the other posters on this board for so graciously paying off my student loans!  


Wow, advertising your in the FSA, pretty ballsy.

I went to college on the GI Bill, and student loans.  I paid of my last of about $30K in about 5 years.
Getting an education that allowed me to earn a living was not that hard to do.  It had nothing to do with x,y, or z studies though.

TXL
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:25:45 AM EDT
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Y'all's logic is flawed.

Are car loans the reason cars are so expensive?

TRG
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Mostly yes.

Who would be able to afford their car if they had to pay cash up front?  The US would be full of used cars probably.

The idea is that the price point is set where the demand curve meets the supply curve every time.  It doesn't matter which one you move (post WW2 car availability/today's low car loan rates) the price will adjust accordingly.  Basic Adam Smith/invisible hand stuff.

Same deal with college tuition.  Part of society thinks higher education is a "right" and most of society expects kids to go to college right after high school.  The demand is artificially high and student loans make the demand worse.  And that's not even looking at the supply side . . .
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:25:46 AM EDT
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If I sign a contract in good faith, I pay what I owe.
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Nowadays, we're called suckers.

But at least we're not alone.  All my friends are suckers too.

TXL
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:25:53 AM EDT
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You can't be serious.

No one is forcing anyone to go to an expensive school.  There are still reasonably priced state schools.
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Maybe someone will finally hold univiserties accountable for what they charge?


This is a big part of the problem

You can't be serious.

No one is forcing anyone to go to an expensive school.  There are still reasonably priced state schools.


Even state schools are ridiculously expensive compared to 20-25 years ago, before the government mandated cheap loans, and the universities raised tuition in response to the glut of (artificial) demand.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:25:57 AM EDT
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Of course, feel free to give me some examples of people that were FORCED to go to college, and forced to pay tuition.  In my experienced, college is something that people voluntarily choose to do.
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When was the last time you were in a high school guidance counselor's office?

In America, not Sweden.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:26:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:27:25 AM EDT
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lol

no
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The University of Miami can charge 35,000 per year for an undergraduate degree because of student loans.

The cheap, non-dischargeable money from the government has caused tuition hikes.


lol

no


Oh? So raising tuition 5% the semester after the stock market lost three quarters of its value and the job market evaporated was dictated by market forces?
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:27:41 AM EDT
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That is entirely incorrect.

Government-backed loans come out of the treasury now.
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I thought that the .gov had removed government backed student loans from the market place.

IIRC, only 1 bank can now offer them to students.  This would mean JP Morgan will get out, because the .gov guarantee is no longer available.

TXL


That is entirely incorrect.

Government-backed loans come out of the treasury now.


I guess I poorly worded my post.  I meant to say, that it used to be all banks could make government backed loans to students, and that is no longer avail.

I did not know the loans were now coming from the Treasury though.

TXL
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:28:04 AM EDT
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There's an easy fix to the student loan crisis: make the debt dischargeable in bankruptcy. It won't ever happen, but this would cause lenders to be much more strict in their underwriting.


NO, I paid mine and so should they.



Support FSA?
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:28:41 AM EDT
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Support FSA?
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There's an easy fix to the student loan crisis: make the debt dischargeable in bankruptcy. It won't ever happen, but this would cause lenders to be much more strict in their underwriting.


NO, I paid mine and so should they.



Support FSA?


Yeah, dude. Its that simple.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:30:23 AM EDT
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If car loans were given out to anyone with a pulse, were made non-dischargeable, and car ownership was pushed by society as the end rather than a means, yeah... car prices would skyrocket.

Oh, and the car was sold in 4 pieces over a period of 4 years.
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Don't forget subsidies and over-lending.  I graduated with 12K in student loans in 2000.  I was offered over 30K over the course of three years.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:35:02 AM EDT
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yea but people can just be poor their whole life and never able to pay
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Tired of getting fucked by students who aren't going to pay?


Student loan debt can't be discharged


yea but people can just be poor their whole life and never able to pay


And they better plan on their social security getting garnished until the day the die if they don't pay it off before hand , also any income tax refunds and soon to be inheritances.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:35:18 AM EDT
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If car loans were given out to anyone with a pulse, were made non-dischargeable, and car ownership was pushed by society as the end rather than a means, yeah... car prices would skyrocket.

Oh, and the car was sold in 4 pieces over a period of 4 years.
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Y'all's logic is flawed.

Are car loans the reason cars are so expensive?

TRG


If car loans were given out to anyone with a pulse, were made non-dischargeable, and car ownership was pushed by society as the end rather than a means, yeah... car prices would skyrocket.

Oh, and the car was sold in 4 pieces over a period of 4 years.


Not once, in 12 years of teaching college, have I ever heard a board member, administrator, faculty member or support staff say, "Let's charge more, there are all these easy loans they can get!  We'll double our tuition and be rich!"

Rates of tuition are not arbitrary. We have oversight boards that answer to taxpayers and lawmakers.

We don't get to just jump up and double our tuition on a whim.

Our rates of tuition are used to offset the lack of funding given to us by Local, State and Federal tax money.

Have you seen the amount of coverage in the news about college funding being cut?  We are a subsidized, socialist, concept.  There is no reason to hide that fact.  

We cannot, and do not, survive on DIRECT payment from our customers (students).  Their rate of pay is lowered because other people (non-students, property owners and tax payers) are picking up part of their check.  When that rate of subsidy decreases, and our services and cost of business increase, we go back to the main customer (students) and tell them they must pay more.

People are bitching because the person who SHOULD be paying for everything themselves (students) are now being told they must pick up more of the tab.

I'm left scratching my head why people think this is a bad thing?

Do y'all really want more socialism or more capitalism in the college system?

This, again, had nothing to do with the availability of student loans.

TRG
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:39:20 AM EDT
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Not once, in 12 years of teaching college, have I ever heard an board member, administrator, faculty member or support staff say, "Let's charge more, there are all these easy loans they can get!  We'll double our tuition and be rich!"

Rates of tuition are not arbitrary. We have oversight boards that answer to taxpayers and lawmakers.

We don't get to just jump up and double our tuition on a whim.

Our rates of tuition are used to offset the lack of funding given to us by Local, State and Federal tax money.

Have you seen the amount of coverage in the news about college funding being cut?  We are a subsidized, socialist, concept.  There is no reason to hide that fact.  

We cannot, and do not, survive on DIRECT payment of our customers (students).  Their rate of pay is lowered because other people (non-students, property owners and tax payers) are picking up part of their check.  When that rate of subsidy decreases, and our services and cost of business increase, we go back to the main customer (students) and tell them they must pay more.

People are bitching because the person who SHOULD be paying for everything themselves (students) are now being told they must pick up more of the tab.

I'm left scratching my head why people think this is a bad thing?

Do y'all really want more socialism or more capitalism in the college system?

This, again, had nothing to do with the availability of student loans.

TRG
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I'm not talking about a fraudulent scheme. I'm talking about market forces.

Those market forces have been disrupted by nondischargeable student loans.

And the trend pre-dates the present downturn in state funding.

Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:39:38 AM EDT
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lol

That system is already in place.  It's called THE MARKET.  You might have heard of it.


Of course, feel free to give me some examples of people that were FORCED to go to college, and forced to pay tuition.  In my experienced, college is something that people voluntarily choose to do.
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Maybe someone will finally hold univiserties accountable for what they charge?


lol

That system is already in place.  It's called THE MARKET.  You might have heard of it.


Of course, feel free to give me some examples of people that were FORCED to go to college, and forced to pay tuition.  In my experienced, college is something that people voluntarily choose to do.


The professor understands it!  Attending college and taking student loan debt is optional, paying it back should not be optional.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:39:49 AM EDT
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Not once, in 12 years of teaching college, have I ever heard a board member, administrator, faculty member or support staff say, "Let's charge more, there are all these easy loans they can get!  We'll double our tuition and be rich!"

Rates of tuition are not arbitrary. We have oversight boards that answer to taxpayers and lawmakers.

We don't get to just jump up and double our tuition on a whim.

Our rates of tuition are used to offset the lack of funding given to us by Local, State and Federal tax money.

Have you seen the amount of coverage in the news about college funding being cut?  We are a subsidized, socialist, concept.  There is no reason to hide that fact.  

We cannot, and do not, survive on DIRECT payment of our customers (students).  Their rate of pay is lowered because other people (non-students, property owners and tax payers) are picking up part of their check.  When that rate of subsidy decreases, and our services and cost of business increase, we go back to the main customer (students) and tell them they must pay more.

People are bitching because the person who SHOULD be paying for everything themselves (students) are now being told they must pick up more of the tab.

I'm left scratching my head why people think this is a bad thing?

Do y'all really want more socialism or more capitalism in the college system?

This, again, had nothing to do with the availability of student loans.

TRG
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...and I bet they're still teaching Keynesian economics with a straight face in the next building over as we type.



Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:41:09 AM EDT
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When was the last time you were in a high school guidance counselor's office?

In America, not Sweden.
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Of course, feel free to give me some examples of people that were FORCED to go to college, and forced to pay tuition.  In my experienced, college is something that people voluntarily choose to do.


When was the last time you were in a high school guidance counselor's office?

In America, not Sweden.


Do they put a gun to your head now and say if you don't go you die? What if they told you to jump off a cliff. Would you?

Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:41:44 AM EDT
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Yeah, dude. Its that simple.
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There's an easy fix to the student loan crisis: make the debt dischargeable in bankruptcy. It won't ever happen, but this would cause lenders to be much more strict in their underwriting.


NO, I paid mine and so should they.



Support FSA?


Yeah, dude. Its that simple.


Apparently.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:42:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:45:45 AM EDT
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So who thinks this leads down a road to where the gov will forgive student loans?



I think that would be hilarious---the IRS will want their cut of anything forgiven, and unless I am much mistaken, if you accept a loan forgiveness your credit gets shot for 7 years.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:45:59 AM EDT
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You are one of the smartest people on this board but your understanding of markets and economics is lacking on this topic. I don't say that as an insult, but just an observation ... Just as I hope you'd give me a friendly correction if I misunderstood something about law.
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Damnit now I have to read more.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:46:54 AM EDT
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Student loans are my last debt.  They will be paid off by the end of thr year.  I suspect Obama will forgive all loans right after I pay mine off.  
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Which will be good----if they are forgiven before they are paid off, you could face negative credit rating repercussions, as well as both paying tax on the amount forgiven and losing any tax deduction you may now get for interest payments.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:47:16 AM EDT
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Y'all's logic is flawed.

Are car loans the reason cars are so expensive?

TRG
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Comparing car loans to student loans is absolutely ridiculous.

An auto loan is quite a bit more difficult to get, because it is much more risky for the lender than a student loan. Federally backed and subsidized student loans are cheap, and available to nearly anyone that wants them. Auto loans are not.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:51:07 AM EDT
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Link

The largest bank in the United States will stop making student loans in a few weeks.

JPMorgan Chase has sent a memorandum to colleges notifying them that the bank will stop making new student loans in October, according to Reuters.


The official reason is quite bland.

"We just don't see this as a market that we can significantly grow," Thasunda Duckett tells Reuters. Duckett is the chief executive for auto and student loans at Chase, which means she's basically delivering the news that a large part of her business is getting closed down.

The move is eerily reminiscent of the subprime shutdown that happened in 2007. Each time a bank shuttered its subprime unit, the news was presented in much the same way that JPMorgan is spinning the end of its student lending.*

-more-







This is because the DOE is forcing private banks out, and they are streamlining so that student loans are all from the government.


*did someone mention housing?

Yep, it's another housing bubble

Four months ago something troubling happened in the housing market. The home price affordability index tracked by the National Association of Realtors slipped below it's long-term trend line, marking a possible beginning of a housing bubble.

On Monday, we got the fourth month of home affordability data coming in below trend, which is a strong confirmation that the housing market is once again in a bubble. (The NAR index is published with a two-month delay, so the latest numbers are for July).

The affordability index measures the household income needed to qualify for a traditional mortgage on a median-priced single family home. So it's looking at a mortgage with a 20 percent down payment and a monthly payment below 25 percent of income at the currently effective rate on conventional mortgages.

When the index is at 100, that means that a household earning the median income has exactly the amount it needs to qualify for a conventional mortgage on a median-priced home. When it is above 100, it signals that the median income is higher than needed to qualify for a mortgage. An AI score of 130, for example, would indicate that households earning the median income would have 30 percent more income than needed to qualify.

-more-

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQuvaDUXDSq9qREKUhnYxdZrueuFwtQGXVsIrlS2­samz_Urxhvn
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This is because the DOE is forcing private banks out, and they are streamlining so that student loans are all from the government.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:51:22 AM EDT
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I'm not talking about a fraudulent scheme. I'm talking about market forces.

Those market forces have been disrupted by nondischargeable student loans.

And the trend pre-dates the present downturn in state funding.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/Tuition.gif
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Not once, in 12 years of teaching college, have I ever heard an board member, administrator, faculty member or support staff say, "Let's charge more, there are all these easy loans they can get!  We'll double our tuition and be rich!"

Rates of tuition are not arbitrary. We have oversight boards that answer to taxpayers and lawmakers.

We don't get to just jump up and double our tuition on a whim.

Our rates of tuition are used to offset the lack of funding given to us by Local, State and Federal tax money.

Have you seen the amount of coverage in the news about college funding being cut?  We are a subsidized, socialist, concept.  There is no reason to hide that fact.  

We cannot, and do not, survive on DIRECT payment of our customers (students).  Their rate of pay is lowered because other people (non-students, property owners and tax payers) are picking up part of their check.  When that rate of subsidy decreases, and our services and cost of business increase, we go back to the main customer (students) and tell them they must pay more.

People are bitching because the person who SHOULD be paying for everything themselves (students) are now being told they must pick up more of the tab.

I'm left scratching my head why people think this is a bad thing?

Do y'all really want more socialism or more capitalism in the college system?

This, again, had nothing to do with the availability of student loans.

TRG


I'm not talking about a fraudulent scheme. I'm talking about market forces.

Those market forces have been disrupted by nondischargeable student loans.

And the trend pre-dates the present downturn in state funding.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/Tuition.gif


Colleges in 1980 and 1990 were not required to provide the services that we are required to provide today.

You've convinced me, tuition is the result of student loans being available, it has nothing to do with the socialist construct of subsidized education after all.

I guess it was all your experince over the last two decades, in education, that you were able to glean that loans were to blame, and not people.

TRG

Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:51:51 AM EDT
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The fact that there is lots of demand for a product/service does not mean that the market is inefficient (as the post I replied to implied, by saying universities should be "accountable" for what they charge).

The more demand there is for a product/service in a market, the more efficient that market is generally going to be (and the university market has THOUSANDS of suppliers, with huge variation in price, size, quality location, type,  etc.). It is a pretty damn efficient market, especially with the recent entrants of for-profit universities and new types of delivery.  THAT is what makes universities "accountable" for what they charge - that they are competing with thousands of other suppliers that are providing the same product.

The reasons for the rapid rise in tuition is complex, and has VERY little (if anything) to do with the availability of federal loans.  That's a simplistic and lazy explanation for a much more complex problem.  That argument suggest that the "profit margin" (whatever analog you want to use for universities) should have been RISING at universities over the past few decades, because the suggestion is being made that universities are simply charging more because of greater availability of money for prospective students.  That argument assumes that the price increases are indeed pendent from cost, which means it should translate to pure "profit.". The actual REALITY is completely different.  Most universities have been more and more squeezed, getting serverly into the red, especially during the past 5-6 years.

The primary reasons for tuition increases over the past several decades are (1) increased cost.  Universities used to have shitty dorms and primitive facilities, while students focused on classes.  NOWADAYS, lots of spoiled kids and helicopter parents expect fancy dining halls, new and luxurious dorms, modern exercise and gym facilities, etc. on campus.  As universities compete for students, this kind of stuff has become hugely important to e ale to attract students, and universities have had to plow HUGE amounts of money into facilities and infrastructure driving up cost enormously.... and (2) reduced government support.  Large state schools especially, have seen MASSIVE reductions in the money they are getting from their states over the past couple of decades.  For most, the only option for them to deal with this problem is to raise tuition - they simply have no other choice.  

You are one of the smartest people on this board but your understanding of markets and economics is lacking on this topic. I don't say that as an insult, but just an observation ... Just as I hope you'd give me a friendly correction if I misunderstood something about law.
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Of course, feel free to give me some examples of people that were FORCED to go to college, and forced to pay tuition.  In my experienced, college is something that people voluntarily choose to do.


When was the last time you were in a high school guidance counselor's office?

In America, not Sweden.



The fact that there is lots of demand for a product/service does not mean that the market is inefficient (as the post I replied to implied, by saying universities should be "accountable" for what they charge).

The more demand there is for a product/service in a market, the more efficient that market is generally going to be (and the university market has THOUSANDS of suppliers, with huge variation in price, size, quality location, type,  etc.). It is a pretty damn efficient market, especially with the recent entrants of for-profit universities and new types of delivery.  THAT is what makes universities "accountable" for what they charge - that they are competing with thousands of other suppliers that are providing the same product.

The reasons for the rapid rise in tuition is complex, and has VERY little (if anything) to do with the availability of federal loans.  That's a simplistic and lazy explanation for a much more complex problem.  That argument suggest that the "profit margin" (whatever analog you want to use for universities) should have been RISING at universities over the past few decades, because the suggestion is being made that universities are simply charging more because of greater availability of money for prospective students.  That argument assumes that the price increases are indeed pendent from cost, which means it should translate to pure "profit.". The actual REALITY is completely different.  Most universities have been more and more squeezed, getting serverly into the red, especially during the past 5-6 years.

The primary reasons for tuition increases over the past several decades are (1) increased cost.  Universities used to have shitty dorms and primitive facilities, while students focused on classes.  NOWADAYS, lots of spoiled kids and helicopter parents expect fancy dining halls, new and luxurious dorms, modern exercise and gym facilities, etc. on campus.  As universities compete for students, this kind of stuff has become hugely important to e ale to attract students, and universities have had to plow HUGE amounts of money into facilities and infrastructure driving up cost enormously.... and (2) reduced government support.  Large state schools especially, have seen MASSIVE reductions in the money they are getting from their states over the past couple of decades.  For most, the only option for them to deal with this problem is to raise tuition - they simply have no other choice.  

You are one of the smartest people on this board but your understanding of markets and economics is lacking on this topic. I don't say that as an insult, but just an observation ... Just as I hope you'd give me a friendly correction if I misunderstood something about law.



This man nailed it!

Fucking UB,  you get a 1 bedroom apartament with cable and high speed internet all utilities and a meal plan all to yourself.  When I am at the Student Union / Cafeteria I see these fucking man children every day.
Living it up like fucking royalty in the "dorms", 500$ Iphones  they dont even work and Major in Underground Lesbian Eskimo skrimshaw poetry for 5 years of their pathetic useless fucking lives.
That is the fucking problem.  Fuck you idiots, move down the street with a roomate and save like 500 bucks a month by living like a real adult.  GET A FUCKING JOB YOU FUCKING IDIOT, THE STUDENT LOANS ARE NOT YOUR MAGICAL PIGGY BANKS.

If you guys saw how much the idiots at my University spend on "student life" you would blow a fucking gasket.  They live 5-6 years of their lives as man-children with no jobs. When they are done they whine why they cant make 30$ with underwater basketweaving degree.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:52:42 AM EDT
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lol

That system is already in place.  It's called THE MARKET.  You might have heard of it.


Of course, feel free to give me some examples of people that were FORCED to go to college, and forced to pay tuition.  In my experienced, college is something that people voluntarily choose to do.
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Maybe someone will finally hold univiserties accountable for what they charge?


lol

That system is already in place.  It's called THE MARKET.  You might have heard of it.


Of course, feel free to give me some examples of people that were FORCED to go to college, and forced to pay tuition.  In my experienced, college is something that people voluntarily choose to do.




there's no real "market"

if you want to go to college, you have to pay the grossly inflated tuition

there are no bargain basement schools

the end


the whole college system has been destroyed by the fact that people are insensitive to debt and the life-crushing loans that the banks are willing to hand out.

if everyone on the planet is willing to take out a doomsday sized loan to go to college, where does that leave the 1 kid out of 100 who can peer 4 years into the future?
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:53:15 AM EDT
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Wow, advertising your in the FSA, pretty ballsy.

I went to college on the GI Bill, and student loans.  I paid of my last of about $30K in about 5 years.
Getting an education that allowed me to earn a living was not that hard to do.  It had nothing to do with x,y, or z studies though.

TXL
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So who thinks this leads down a road to where the gov will forgive student loans?



 I would just like to thank the OP and the other posters on this board for so graciously paying off my student loans!  


Wow, advertising your in the FSA, pretty ballsy.

I went to college on the GI Bill, and student loans.  I paid of my last of about $30K in about 5 years.
Getting an education that allowed me to earn a living was not that hard to do.  It had nothing to do with x,y, or z studies though.

TXL



That's how I roll




ETA: Still owe 30,000
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:59:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:00:30 AM EDT
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You've convinced me, tuition is the result of student loans being available, it has nothing to do with the socialist construct of subsidized education after all.

TRG
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The former is part and parcel to the latter.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:01:11 AM EDT
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...................
The primary reasons for tuition increases over the past several decades are (1) increased cost.  Universities used to have shitty dorms and primitive facilities, while students focused on classes.  NOWADAYS, lots of spoiled kids and helicopter parents expect fancy dining halls, new and luxurious dorms, modern exercise and gym facilities, etc. on campus.  As universities compete for students, this kind of stuff has become hugely important to be able to attract students, and universities have had to plow HUGE amounts of money into facilities and infrastructure driving up cost enormously.... and (2) reduced government support.  Large state schools especially, have seen MASSIVE reductions in the money they are getting from their states over the past couple of decades.  For most, the only option for them to deal with this problem is to raise tuition - they simply have no other choice.  ...................
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Yep, the states have cut back funding to public institutions. Tuition picks up the difference.

The schools have also grown over the years. My alma mater has more than doubled in size (although parking has shrunk!). Back in the day you could pretty well walk or 10 speed it around with no problem. The size of the campus has grown to the point where you either have to plan your schedule or resort to a car and do the old parking lot buzzard routine. Many of my favorite saloons have been bulldozed.

All of this infrastructure is a large increase in fixed costs. And students are demanding more and fancier accommodations. The literature we received when our chirren were attending (praise be they're long ago graduates) was eye opening. Apartment suites, workout facilities with the best and newest equipment (what ever happened to moldy gyms?). All of this costs money to maintain.

Oh, yeah. And the purchasing power of the good old FRN has tanked to boot.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:02:00 AM EDT
Well damn..  I refinanced mine earlier this year. I could've just ignored them and let the .gov (you) eat the bill. I failed at being FSA
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:04:52 AM EDT
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Well damn..  I refinanced mine earlier this year. I could've just ignored them and let the .gov (you) eat the bill. I failed at being FSA
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No sir you did the right thing
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:05:53 AM EDT
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The fact that there is lots of demand for a product/service does not mean that the market is inefficient (as the post I replied to implied, by saying universities should be "accountable" for what they charge).

The more demand there is for a product/service in a market, the more efficient that market is generally going to be (and the university market has THOUSANDS of suppliers, with huge variation in price, size, quality location, type,  etc.). It is a pretty damn efficient market, especially with the recent entrants of for-profit universities and new types of delivery.  THAT is what makes universities "accountable" for what they charge - that they are competing with thousands of other suppliers that are providing the same product.

The reasons for the rapid rise in tuition is complex, and has VERY little (if anything) to do with the availability of federal loans.  That's a simplistic and lazy explanation for a much more complex problem.  That argument suggest that the "profit margin" (whatever analog you want to use for universities) should have been RISING at universities over the past few decades, because the suggestion is being made that universities are simply charging more because of greater availability of money for prospective students.  That argument assumes that the price increases are independent from cost, which means it should translate to pure "profit.". The actual REALITY is completely different.  Most universities have been more and more squeezed, getting severely into the red, especially during the past 5-6 years.

The primary reasons for tuition increases over the past several decades are (1) increased cost.  Universities used to have shitty dorms and primitive facilities, while students focused on classes.  NOWADAYS, lots of spoiled kids and helicopter parents expect fancy dining halls, new and luxurious dorms, modern exercise and gym facilities, etc. on campus.  As universities compete for students, this kind of stuff has become hugely important to be able to attract students, and universities have had to plow HUGE amounts of money into facilities and infrastructure driving up cost enormously.... and (2) reduced government support.  Large state schools especially, have seen MASSIVE reductions in the money they are getting from their states over the past couple of decades.  For most, the only option for them to deal with this problem is to raise tuition - they simply have no other choice.  

You are one of the smartest people on this board but your understanding of markets and economics is lacking on this topic. I don't say that as an insult, but just an observation ... Just as I hope you'd give me a friendly correction if I misunderstood something about law.
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Of course, feel free to give me some examples of people that were FORCED to go to college, and forced to pay tuition.  In my experienced, college is something that people voluntarily choose to do.


When was the last time you were in a high school guidance counselor's office?

In America, not Sweden.



The fact that there is lots of demand for a product/service does not mean that the market is inefficient (as the post I replied to implied, by saying universities should be "accountable" for what they charge).

The more demand there is for a product/service in a market, the more efficient that market is generally going to be (and the university market has THOUSANDS of suppliers, with huge variation in price, size, quality location, type,  etc.). It is a pretty damn efficient market, especially with the recent entrants of for-profit universities and new types of delivery.  THAT is what makes universities "accountable" for what they charge - that they are competing with thousands of other suppliers that are providing the same product.

The reasons for the rapid rise in tuition is complex, and has VERY little (if anything) to do with the availability of federal loans.  That's a simplistic and lazy explanation for a much more complex problem.  That argument suggest that the "profit margin" (whatever analog you want to use for universities) should have been RISING at universities over the past few decades, because the suggestion is being made that universities are simply charging more because of greater availability of money for prospective students.  That argument assumes that the price increases are independent from cost, which means it should translate to pure "profit.". The actual REALITY is completely different.  Most universities have been more and more squeezed, getting severely into the red, especially during the past 5-6 years.

The primary reasons for tuition increases over the past several decades are (1) increased cost.  Universities used to have shitty dorms and primitive facilities, while students focused on classes.  NOWADAYS, lots of spoiled kids and helicopter parents expect fancy dining halls, new and luxurious dorms, modern exercise and gym facilities, etc. on campus.  As universities compete for students, this kind of stuff has become hugely important to be able to attract students, and universities have had to plow HUGE amounts of money into facilities and infrastructure driving up cost enormously.... and (2) reduced government support.  Large state schools especially, have seen MASSIVE reductions in the money they are getting from their states over the past couple of decades.  For most, the only option for them to deal with this problem is to raise tuition - they simply have no other choice.  

You are one of the smartest people on this board but your understanding of markets and economics is lacking on this topic. I don't say that as an insult, but just an observation ... Just as I hope you'd give me a friendly correction if I misunderstood something about law.



OK,

suppose their were no student loans available

or say the loans were capped off at $15,000

I guess all the universities would just teach to empty classrooms?

because who could afford to got to the 1000s of grossly overpriced regional colleges?

who's going to foot the bill for $50k a year per student?


if there's no money supply, then there's no money



this whole tuition thing is nothing more than a housing type bubble

give a toxic loan to 100,000 people, watch the tidal wave of money drive the prices up


Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:06:24 AM EDT
Around here you always heard that the state university system was losing money and that justified tuition increases.

Then SURPRISE, an audit showed a huge slush fund at UW.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/outrage-grows-as-uw-admits-it-did-not-draw-attention-to-cash-r59lh2e-204159081.html


Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:10:44 AM EDT
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Around here you always heard that the state university system was losing money and that justified tuition increases.

Then SURPRISE, an audit showed a huge slush fund at UW.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/outrage-grows-as-uw-admits-it-did-not-draw-attention-to-cash-r59lh2e-204159081.html


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State universities have also been starting to piss off residents and their parents by lowering the number of slots available at their marquee locations in favor of out of state and foreign students paying full freight.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:11:06 AM EDT
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there's no real "market"

if you want to go to college, you have to pay the grossly inflated tuition

there are no bargain basement schools

the end


the whole college system has been destroyed by the fact that people are insensitive to debt and the life-crushing loans that the banks are willing to hand out.

if everyone on the planet is willing to take out a doomsday sized loan to go to college, where does that leave the 1 kid out of 100 who can peer 4 years into the future?
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Maybe someone will finally hold univiserties accountable for what they charge?


lol

That system is already in place.  It's called THE MARKET.  You might have heard of it.


Of course, feel free to give me some examples of people that were FORCED to go to college, and forced to pay tuition.  In my experienced, college is something that people voluntarily choose to do.




there's no real "market"

if you want to go to college, you have to pay the grossly inflated tuition

there are no bargain basement schools

the end


the whole college system has been destroyed by the fact that people are insensitive to debt and the life-crushing loans that the banks are willing to hand out.

if everyone on the planet is willing to take out a doomsday sized loan to go to college, where does that leave the 1 kid out of 100 who can peer 4 years into the future?


Hopefully with a scholarship.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:12:12 AM EDT
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Yep, the states have cut back funding to public institutions. Tuition picks up the difference.

The schools have also grown over the years. My alma mater has more than doubled in size (although parking has shrunk!). Back in the day you could pretty well walk or 10 speed it around with no problem. The size of the campus has grown to the point where you either have to plan your schedule or resort to a car and do the old parking lot buzzard routine. Many of my favorite saloons have been bulldozed.

All of this infrastructure is a large increase in fixed costs. And students are demanding more and fancier accommodations. The literature we received when our chirren were attending (praise be they're long ago graduates) was eye opening. Apartment suites, workout facilities with the best and newest equipment (what ever happened to moldy gyms?). All of this costs money to maintain.

Oh, yeah. And the purchasing power of the good old FRN has tanked to boot.
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...................
The primary reasons for tuition increases over the past several decades are (1) increased cost.  Universities used to have shitty dorms and primitive facilities, while students focused on classes.  NOWADAYS, lots of spoiled kids and helicopter parents expect fancy dining halls, new and luxurious dorms, modern exercise and gym facilities, etc. on campus.  As universities compete for students, this kind of stuff has become hugely important to be able to attract students, and universities have had to plow HUGE amounts of money into facilities and infrastructure driving up cost enormously.... and (2) reduced government support.  Large state schools especially, have seen MASSIVE reductions in the money they are getting from their states over the past couple of decades.  For most, the only option for them to deal with this problem is to raise tuition - they simply have no other choice.  ...................

Yep, the states have cut back funding to public institutions. Tuition picks up the difference.

The schools have also grown over the years. My alma mater has more than doubled in size (although parking has shrunk!). Back in the day you could pretty well walk or 10 speed it around with no problem. The size of the campus has grown to the point where you either have to plan your schedule or resort to a car and do the old parking lot buzzard routine. Many of my favorite saloons have been bulldozed.

All of this infrastructure is a large increase in fixed costs. And students are demanding more and fancier accommodations. The literature we received when our chirren were attending (praise be they're long ago graduates) was eye opening. Apartment suites, workout facilities with the best and newest equipment (what ever happened to moldy gyms?). All of this costs money to maintain.

Oh, yeah. And the purchasing power of the good old FRN has tanked to boot.



yeah, and if the money supply wasn't there, in the form of these grossly oversized loans, this sort of thing would not be happening

because it simply would be impossible to get students in the door at the required cost

Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:13:06 AM EDT
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Y'all's logic is flawed.

Are car loans the reason cars are so expensive?

TRG
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The University of Miami can charge 35,000 per year for an undergraduate degree because of student loans.

The cheap, non-dischargeable money from the government has caused tuition hikes.




This should be quoted again. When in school my tuition started going up significantly each semester for the last year and a half. Before that it was very minor increases, then it was 300, then 400, then 600, and then I graduated so I have no clue how high it is now. But they were able to continue getting the increases so they kept pushing the envelope. The government made this all possible by getting involved. You could also see the demographics of the student body shifting towards the end.



Y'all's logic is flawed.

Are car loans the reason cars are so expensive?

TRG


Imagine for a moment if you had to pay for a new car with cash you saved.  What would happen to the car industry and the price of new cars? (what's the concept called again?  Supply / De...De... De...??)
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:17:27 AM EDT
Might have trouble making cutbacks by firing all those unpaid interns teaching the classes. Oh shit! THey'll have to cut back on top heavy administration positions geared toward special interest/ identity groups. THat's racist/ sexist. Government will need to step up and pay the bill for those admin jobs....
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:18:00 AM EDT
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Are you planning on participating in some type of .gov loan forgiveness program?  If you do you would become a card carrying member of the FSA.
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My wife and I were going to pay off a bunch of student loans and reduce our debt and such (we've got a chunk of cash) but decided to wait in case there's some "forgiveness" stupidity coming down the pipe.


Are you planning on participating in some type of .gov loan forgiveness program?  If you do you would become a card carrying member of the FSA.


Goddamn right. I wrote a huge fucking check last April 15th to the IRS.

I don't view it as being FSA, I view it as getting my money back..
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:20:51 AM EDT
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It's sad to see these kids take loans to go to cooking and art schools.  And then they're saddled with debt.  
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I suppose it is, but it shows a lack foresight.  Don't get me wrong, I think student loans are a legitimate and useful tool for those who want to go to college, especially for graduate students.  With that being said, people need to give a little more thought to what they're going into debt for.  You have to be able to pay that loan off and live after getting your master's or PhD.  If you're getting your PhD in something you can make good money at (physician, psychologist, engineer, law, and pharmacy all come to mind) and it's something you want to do, then it's worthwhile.  If you're getting it in art history or basket weaving, things are going to be hard after you're done.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:22:54 AM EDT
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Goddamn right. I wrote a huge fucking check last April 15th to the IRS.

I don't view it as being FSA, I view it as getting my money back..
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My wife and I were going to pay off a bunch of student loans and reduce our debt and such (we've got a chunk of cash) but decided to wait in case there's some "forgiveness" stupidity coming down the pipe.


Are you planning on participating in some type of .gov loan forgiveness program?  If you do you would become a card carrying member of the FSA.


Goddamn right. I wrote a huge fucking check last April 15th to the IRS.

I don't view it as being FSA, I view it as getting my money back..


And how should those of us that paid back their student loans and also wrote big tax check feel about it? Shouldn't we get a refund for the bills we already paid back?
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:24:29 AM EDT


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Student loan debt can't be discharged
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Quoted:

Tired of getting fucked by students who aren't going to pay?




Student loan debt can't be discharged


Yet...



My SIL didn't pay.  Instead of a tax return she got a notice it was applied to her student loans.  She finally paid them off doing it this way (why, I can't say) and she's now 40.



Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:27:20 AM EDT
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Spotted your problem
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Talking with some guys last night about houses, loans, etc.  One guy bought his house is 2008 for 178K.  Had it appraised a short time back for a refi, appraisal comes in at 102K.  Bank says no refi and rightly so.

A few months ago he gets a call from the bank saying he now qualifies for some some super duper federal loan program.  Appraisal magically comes in at 132K and the bank refi's him from 7% down to 3.25%.

Yeaaaa for the magic money.


Spotted your problem



Missed it by that much. Couple of months later could have got it for 30- 50% less.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 8:29:29 AM EDT
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When universities start getting desperate, you'll see them close down the community college "loophole" that's becoming very popular-you do your 100-200 level courses there for low tuition, and transfer your junior year to the "brand name" college for your 300 and 400 level courses and the prestigious name on your degree.
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Around here, all of the community colleges are going to 4 year programs.
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