The Real "Missing Link"... - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Real "Missing Link"... (Page 2 of 5)

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:13:29 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:. I don't know your specific beliefs so I made a wide allowance.

Science is nothing more than truth. Within science is scientific fact (provable knowns) and scientific theory (best guesses based upon existing evidence). When theories become provable knowns they become scientific fact. When disproven they are no longer anything.

And I agree with science and God not being mutually exclusive. Science has no real evidence there is or isn't a God so he cannot be scientifically disproven any more than he can be scientifically proven. And IF the day comes that the existence of God is proven then God will become scientific fact.

Couldnt have said it better.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:14:11 PM EDT

[#2]

These are the rather comprehensive fossil records of Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (Neanderthal) and Homo sapiens sapiens (Cro Magnon) which we know for a FACT both existed and were BOTH species of men who used tools, lived in caves and made fire.

Well thats it! We did evolve from apes! And I guess apes evloved from a pile of goop.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:14:22 PM EDT

[#3]

Phillip E. Johnson's "Darwin on Trial." is a good start. As an ex-Berkeley prof specializing in the logic of arguments, he sets these "facts" in their proper context(s).

Because I didn't want to get caught up in schlock arguments, I read book reviews in top science journals. Nature, for one, reviewed this book and attacked it squarely, saying - among other things - that Johnson had merely "ressurrected those same old Creationist arguments" (or words to that effect - forgive me, but it's been about a year).

However, none actually attempted to dispute the actual points. He has since participated in a number of debates with famous naturalistic evolutionists over the years (most notably Michael Ruse). William Provine of Cornell (at first a scathing critic) used to invite him to speak to his evo biol undergrad and grad students, and Johnson's aforementioned book was required reading for the course(s).

BTW, Johnson is often referred to as an "anti-evolutionist." On the contrary, he is "anti-" any suspect "evidence" and has made foes of plenty of literal creationists, as well.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:16:16 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I really admire a well thought out , logically presented response

Ya its so simple, an idiot could understand it.....wait...i guess not.

You are 100% correct .....

Now please explain it to me

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:18:11 PM EDT

[#5]

Heres scientific fact. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. But where the heck did all the matter from what the earth and universe were created come from? I guess it evolved.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:18:36 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I've never had speciation explained to me in a manner I view as sufficiently convincing.

And I think its quite plausible a theory otherwise, Just tell me how chromosomal frequency changes in small seperated populations... as mating between chromosomally similar but imperfect numeric matches leads to steril offspring (Donkey, Ligers, Tions, etc).
You have it wrong.

Donkey + Horse = MULE.

And some Ligers and Tigons have been born fertile.

"A note about ligers and tigons: A cat born to a tiger father and a lion mother is known as a Tigon. Tigons are very similar to ligers in many ways, but are quite a bit different also. We know of at least one documented instance of a tigon being born fertile. The offspring was fathered by a tiger so it was called a ti-tigon. We have been presented with other examples of tigon/liger ofspring, including a very nice looking female tig-liger.
This note is presented for informational purposes only. We do not have a tigon at Sierra Safari Zoo nor do we expect Hobbs to sire any cubs. "

www.sierrasafarizoo.com/animals/liger.htm

I thought ligers were bred for their strength and skill at magic?

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:18:50 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
God created us. We didnt evolve from one celled oranisms over billions of years we did not evolve from apes. Darwin was an idiot.
Wow, that makes you sound smart as hell.

"Someone who scientists all around the world tout as a genius i think is a moron."

Try giving evidence of your beliefs

Actually, many prominent scientists do *not* believe Darwin was a genius. That's not to say they believe he is a moron, either, even if only because to do so would be career suicide.

Though oftentimes considered synonymous, "Darwinian evolution" and "naturalistic evolution" are in fact, not.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:23:58 PM EDT

[#8]

The bombardier beetle uses a binary chemical to defend itself. Separate the chemicals are harmless, but put them together and they form a type of acid. Now the heck did that thing evolve? Wouldn’t have killed itself off trying to learn how to keep the chemicals separate?

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:27:26 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
The bombardier beetle uses a binary chemical to defend itself. Separate the chemicals are harmless, but put them together and they form a type of acid. Now the heck did that thing evolve? Wouldn’t have killed itself off trying to learn how to keep the chemicals separate?

yeah, youre right, an all mighty being just snapped his fingers and created it instead, that sound sooo much more believable.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:29:51 PM EDT

[#10]

yeah, youre right

Thank you. And I guess im right about matter not being able to be created or destroyed...right? Or did matter evolve over billions of years too?

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:30:35 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
These are the rather comprehensive fossil records of Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (Neanderthal) and Homo sapiens sapiens (Cro Magnon) which we know for a FACT both existed and were BOTH species of men who used tools, lived in caves and made fire.

Well thats it! We did evolve from apes! And I guess apes evloved from a pile of goop.

Your inability to learn is astounding.

Evolution and Darwin NEVER said humans evolved from apes. Read my first post it addresses that ill informed notion.

And when confrontated by fact and evidence you go off into nonsensical ill informed tangents.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:30:54 PM EDT

[#12]

Uh, the Bible itself has evolved. Does one realize that there were are many volumes before the King James? Mr James put together his scrapbook and through out others and selectively chose his adaptation of one version of the WORD. Natural selection. How many parts of the old testement evolved out of Greek and Homeric mythology.

This is not speculation. Why does Christianity survive the tests of time? Because it to has evolved. We are in no way following the Bible traditions of lore. We leave the changes to the clerics who transform the words into functional realities of today.

To deny the facts of the real world is in itself a sin as God created man into flesh. God created all things in his way(evolution does not exist). That is to say he created all forms of all animals and man to have ever existed. How he did it is redundant. He created modern man in an instant as so he created earlier man(not us today) separate. What is so hard to understand this way? It doent pit science against religion.

The spontaneous change that occurs in every species that ever existed is Gods doing. So I beg not to argue.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:31:52 PM EDT

[#13]

an all mighty being just snapped his fingers and created it instead, that sound sooo much more believable

Now that ive presented some evidence , I guess you at a loss for an explination.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:32:04 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Heres scientific fact. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. But where the heck did all the matter from what the earth and universe were created come from? I guess it evolved.

That is actually easy.

The matter humans are made from is carbon, a very common element manufactured in the process of solar fusion.

We actually know that one. If you took the time to actually read my first post you'd learn that all life forms on Earth are carbon based.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:33:47 PM EDT

[#15]

That is actually easy.

The matter humans are made from is carbon, a very common element manufactured in the process of solar fusion.

We actually know that one. If you took the time to actually read my first post you'd learn that all life forms on Earth are carbon based.

Ya...but where the hell did carbon come from.....its matter too isnt it?

And how the heck did solar fusion start? I guess it figured itself out.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:35:36 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
yeah, youre right

Thank you. And I guess im right about matter not being able to be created or destroyed...right? Or did matter evolve over billions of years too?

Did you learn NOTHING in school?

E=mc2

Matter was NOT created. It can't be created or destroyed, which thankfully you DO know. However the Bible suggests differently that God simply created what didn't exist prior.

However matter can be converted to and from energy. Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared. We proved this both ways already.

We converted matter into energy over Hiroshima and do it all the time in nuclear plants.

And we produced matter from energy (not created but converted) at tremendous costs to run the equation backwards to prove it could be done.

The matter of the universe came from the conversion of pure energy (the Big Bang) into space and time itself.

Now where that energy came from or if it was once matter (from a prior universe) is something we obviously don't know. We weren't there.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:36:32 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
yeah, youre right

Thank you. And I guess im right about matter not being able to be created or destroyed...right? Or did matter evolve over billions of years too?

Nope , your wrong there too ......

Quarks are “ Created “ in a rarefied environment and can be measured so they are therefore
" Matter " , but they disappear without a trace .

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:37:05 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
an all mighty being just snapped his fingers and created it instead, that sound sooo much more believable

Now that ive presented some evidence , I guess you at a loss for an explination.

i presented evidence my self, more than, "God must have created it." you are too close minded to even dicuss something with, so I choose to just read at this point.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:38:05 PM EDT

[#19]

So matter came from solar fusion....and solar fusion started how?

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:39:01 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
yeah, youre right

Thank you. And I guess im right about matter not being able to be created or destroyed...right? Or did matter evolve over billions of years too?

Nope , your wrong there too ......

Quarks are “ Created “ in a rarefied environment and can be measured so they are therefore
" Matter " , but they disappear without a trace .

I believe they too will be subject to E=mc2.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:39:39 PM EDT

[#21]

And where the heck did space,,,never ending space come from? I guess it evolved too?

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:42:07 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
So matter came from solar fusion....and solar fusion started how?

Man do I have to teach you everything from Middle School science?

Solar fusion began when the matter of the universe began to collect due to the force of gravity. With enough matter simply elements like hydrogen began to compact enough to begin the process of fusion.

If enough matter is not present to start this process a star is not born and it will remain a large ball of gas, a good example of which is Jupiter.

With a little more mass Jupiter could have been a second star (sun).

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:42:08 PM EDT

[#23]

And from solar fusion we get carbon...which I guess explains where water, and metals, and everything else came from.....it makes so much sense now.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:42:11 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
And where the heck did space,,,never ending space come from? I guess it evolved too?

all you seem to be able to do is doubt things, I havent once seen you prove that a god created any of the objects that you specify...

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:43:21 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

We can create amino acids all day long. But we cannot give them "life."

...................................................................................................................................

But certainly something happened between amino acids and the first single cell forms of life.

And THAT is the "missing link" I'd like to see.

There's a huge problem before AA can even think about becoming proteins.

Life contains proteins made exclusively of 100% left handed AA.

We can attempt to simulate the primordial ooze on a laboratory and create, at best, a 55/45 chiral mixture of left/right handed amino acids.

There is not even a PLAUSIBLE THEORY, not even AN IMAGINATION of how the left ones can become separated and exclusively become part of a protein.

Something did happen in the beginning. God made it happen. You can look at a stapler and a mouse and immediately see the stapler is created by intelligence, but why not the mouse?

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:44:14 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quarks are “ Created “ in a rarefied environment and can be measured so they are therefore
" Matter " , but they disappear without a trace .

I believe they too will be subject to E=mc2.

I agree .............. Eventually .

That's why I initially responded that we just don't know enough
to answer MANY questions .

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:44:51 PM EDT

[#27]

Solar fusion began when the matter of the universe began to collect due to the force of gravity

No shit!? How did gravity come into being? I guess it evloved too.

So your saying that matter just one day formed and gravity pulled it all into one big ball causing solar fusion...which in turn created matter?

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:45:29 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
And from solar fusion we get carbon...which I guess explains where water, and metals, and everything else came from.....it makes so much sense now.

Solar fusion creates all the elements up to and including iron.

Then a star begins to die. If it supernovas the violence of the explosion will create the rest of the elements on the periodic table up to and including uranium. These include the metals.

Water is a combination of two fusion created elements hydrogen (the most common element in the universe) and oxygen. Two hydrogens and one oxygen make water, H20.

I must say I'm astounded. You are capable of wrapping your brain around a complex notion such as a ominpotent God but don't know where water comes from.

Amazing.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:45:57 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
And where the heck did space,,,never ending space come from? I guess it evolved too?
all you seem to be able to do is doubt things, I havent once seen you prove that a god created any of the objects that you specify...

You dont want to reply to this? ahhh, didnt think so. Well, Im off for a shower, I guess Ill come read the rest of your drivel later.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:47:33 PM EDT

[#30]

So where did the matter to creat solar fusion come from?

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:47:35 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
And where the heck did space,,,never ending space come from? I guess it evolved too?

Space and time began with the big bang.

You probably believe science suggested the big bang was an explosion of matter into space but that is not correct.

It was space itself that was created from a conversion of pure energy.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:49:03 PM EDT

[#32]

and...there off and running!

'darwin' takes an early lead on the inside rail, followed by 'god amighty'! two lengths back it's 'cromagnon's daddy' leading by a upright nose over 'miss lucy' as they head into the the turn!

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:49:10 PM EDT

[#33]

It was space itself that was created from a conversion of pure energy.

And you know this how....I guess you were there to wittness it right? Simply amazing.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:50:34 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
It was space itself that was created from a conversion of pure energy.

And you know this how....I guess you were there to wittness it right? Simply amazing.

Cosmic Background Radiation
that's how.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:50:45 PM EDT

[#35]

Space and time began with the big bang.

So before the "big bang" there was no space and no time....wow...were you there?

So one day the universe decided..."Hey im going to big bang myself to get things started"

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:50:46 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:

We can create amino acids all day long. But we cannot give them "life."

...................................................................................................................................

But certainly something happened between amino acids and the first single cell forms of life.

And THAT is the "missing link" I'd like to see.

There's a huge problem before AA can even think about becoming proteins.

Life contains proteins made exclusively of 100% left handed AA.

We can attempt to simulate the primordial ooze on a laboratory and create, at best, a 55/45 chiral mixture of left/right handed amino acids.

There is not even a PLAUSIBLE THEORY, not even AN IMAGINATION of how the left ones can become separated and exclusively become part of a protein.

Something did happen in the beginning. God made it happen. You can look at a stapler and a mouse and immediately see the stapler is created by intelligence, but why not the mouse?

Finally someone who KNOWS SOMETHING.

God bless you sir.

As stated we don't HAVE A CLUE how one became the other.

We have no proof of ANYTHING, not even God.

We don't know.

I know a stapler is made by man because we have that evidence.

We know a mouse evolved from a earlier species because we have that evidence.

We have NOTHING to show us how AAs became life. We only know they did.

If that was actually God, when we get that evidence we will finally know.

Currently we don't have a shred of evidence or even a clue how it happened. As you pointed out.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:52:37 PM EDT

[#37]

If you fold up a hankie just right and snap it open a duck comes out and if you have a tophat there might be a rabbit in it. I saw it on TV.
Also, if something really strange happens a monkey can come out of your bum. Someone told me that.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:54:15 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Solar fusion began when the matter of the universe began to collect due to the force of gravity

No shit!? How did gravity come into being? I guess it evloved too.

So your saying that matter just one day formed and gravity pulled it all into one big ball causing solar fusion...which in turn created matter?

Not what I said at all.

Matter was created with the big bang, converted from energy.

Now gravity is something we don't know everything about. However if you drop a book on the floor you will see absolute evidence it exists. And the ineherent gravity in ALL matter brought the simple elements (such as hydrogen) of the early universe together into gas balls of varios sizes.

Some became stars.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:54:17 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Quoted:
And where the heck did space,,,never ending space come from? I guess it evolved too?

Space and time began with the big bang.

You probably believe science suggested the big bang was an explosion of matter into space but that is not correct.

It was space itself that was created from a conversion of pure energy.

Nova recently had a show on string theory and the existence of parallel or alternate dimensions. The Big Bang may have been the brief interaction of two such dimensions (one ours). Heavy, heavy shit man. Everything is energy when you boil it down.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:54:46 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
It was space itself that was created from a conversion of pure energy.

And you know this how....I guess you were there to wittness it right? Simply amazing.

Did you witness Creationism ?

If not , then how can you say that's how it happened ?

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:55:13 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
It was space itself that was created from a conversion of pure energy.

And you know this how....I guess you were there to wittness it right? Simply amazing.

Spectral doppler run backwards.

I'd explain that but you ain't up for it trust me. It's a bit harder than where does water come from.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:56:31 PM EDT

[#42]

I have the answer.

I WORK with the missing link!

CJ

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:56:57 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
It was space itself that was created from a conversion of pure energy.

And you know this how....I guess you were there to wittness it right? Simply amazing.

Cosmic Background Radiation
that's how.

That was evidence that it DID happen not how. The how was when we ran spectral doppler on the universe and discovered it was not a steady state universe as previously believed.

Running that expansion backwards gave us a rather obvious conclusion.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:57:50 PM EDT

[#44]

Evolution and creationism are both frame works to interprete evedence.
As a creationist I don't dispute the existance of dinosaurs or unique animals that might have humanistic forms.
What I dispute is the Darwinian interprtation that says, without proof ,these are some form of sub-human.
The problem with Neandertal, Cro-Magnam, etc. for the evolutionist is that the are complete, fully funtioning creatures. What I mean is they are fully developed, perfectly designed creatures.
A true missing link would be a half way between creature. Think about any part of your body, it is perfectly designed for it's job. A true missing link is not just a smaller version of a current animal.

Also, DNA does not have an experimental part to it, it makes the same thing over and over again. When we have a mutation in the genetic code it causes a loss of information, not a gain.
Some how the evolutionist has to show, without any true transitional forms, that we went from goo (no information) to the most complex, perfectly designed machines known in the universe.

BTW Moses didn't write the early parts of Genisis, He compiled writings passed down to him from his forfathers. Read the accounts carefully, they were obviosly written by the people who went thru them.

And finally, throwing out a laundry list of fancy names of creatures and then saying nobody can dispute all of these things is just trying to overwelm the reader with info. Each one of these creatures CAN be disputed to not be any sort of sub-human. Just because they aren't apes doesn't mean by default they are sub-human.
Neadertal Buried their dead, played music on insterments they made, made jewlry, hunted with weapons, painted cave walls, built fires, etc. Sounds pretty human to me, even if they were butt frickin ugly.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:58:03 PM EDT

[#45]

Spectral doppler run backwards.

No shit!?

Sounds like its really accurate and important...it must be if it unlocked the secrets to the universe.

No really...im not impressed

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:58:59 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Space and time began with the big bang.

So before the "big bang" there was no space and no time....wow...were you there?

So one day the universe decided..."Hey im going to big bang myself to get things started"

Actually there is a "pulse theory" of the Universe which suggests the universe converts from energy to matter and back to energy in a continuous cycle.

Where the original energy or matter came from or when that cycle (if it is one) began is anyones guess.

NOBODY knows.

Posted: 1/9/2005 6:00:00 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Spectral doppler run backwards.

No shit!?

Sounds like its really accurate and important...it must be if it unlocked the secrets to the universe.

No really...im not impressed

Actually it is about 4th grade level science. Not sure you could handle it.

Posted: 1/9/2005 6:00:05 PM EDT

[#48]

Actually there is a "pulse theory" of the Universe which suggests the universe converts from energy to matter and back to energy in a continuous cycle.

So basically your guessing how it happend.....sounds VERY scientific.

Posted: 1/9/2005 6:00:47 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

We can create amino acids all day long. But we cannot give them "life."

...................................................................................................................................

But certainly something happened between amino acids and the first single cell forms of life.

And THAT is the "missing link" I'd like to see.

There's a huge problem before AA can even think about becoming proteins.

Life contains proteins made exclusively of 100% left handed AA.

We can attempt to simulate the primordial ooze on a laboratory and create, at best, a 55/45 chiral mixture of left/right handed amino acids.

There is not even a PLAUSIBLE THEORY, not even AN IMAGINATION of how the left ones can become separated and exclusively become part of a protein.

Something did happen in the beginning. God made it happen. You can look at a stapler and a mouse and immediately see the stapler is created by intelligence, but why not the mouse?

Finally someone who KNOWS SOMETHING.

God bless you sir.

As stated we don't HAVE A CLUE how one became the other.

We have no proof of ANYTHING, not even God.

We don't know.

I know a stapler is made by man because we have that evidence.

We know a mouse evolved from a earlier species because we have that evidence.

We have NOTHING to show us how AAs became life. We only know they did.

If that was actually God, when we get that evidence we will finally know.

Currently we don't have a shred of evidence or even a clue how it happened. As you pointed out.

Well, now that we both agree that we don't know anything, perhaps we can get somewhere

Posted: 1/9/2005 6:01:44 PM EDT

[#50]

Where the original energy or matter came from or when that cycle (if it is one) began is anyones guess.

OHHHH so when it comes down to it you cant explain how this crazy universe started.....thank you.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Real "Missing Link"... (Page 2 of 5)

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