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Posted: 8/30/2015 5:42:17 PM EDT
[#1]
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A conventional three man Army sniper team has 3 M4 carbine, 1 M320, 1M2010, 1 M110, 1 M107, often also has M14 or Mk12 the unit managed to get a hold of. Its not even possible to carry all the weapons at once.Who do you think decides which weapon the team members must carry? The golf bag system of rifle issue and selection has been part of the US military since they started issuing AR10s without turning in bolt guns, while also issuing out XM3, Mk12s, M25, M14EBR and other non MTOE rifles. SOCOM units have even a larger selection. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Popular or just what was issue? The guys in the photos didn't make the selection. Most guys with the Mk12 option went that way. I liked the Mk11 and M110 when they became the standard, because they were not the M24, but I carried the Mk12 without thinking twice about any of those rifles. So you don't think MARSOC, Rangers, or CAG can't get MK12s if they wanted to? That they are stuck with AR10s because nothing else is available? Of course they made the selection. A conventional sniper team has at least four rifles to choose from to carry, M40/M24/M2010/Mk13 bolt action, a SR25/M110/Mk11 AR10 rifle, a MK11/DM/M4 AR15, or a M107/M82 SASR. You think they can't pick and choose what they want to bring on missions? SOCOM snipers have even a more diverse array of weapons to choose, and amazingly enough, many choose 7.62. But I guess they are all ignorant. 
I'm sure all things are possible somewhere, but I don't think the Mk12 is available through the JOS at this point. Having been involved in T&E for the selection of similar rifles, I can tell you that Now carries what he's given and just goes and does good work. There's very little choice A conventional three man Army sniper team has 3 M4 carbine, 1 M320, 1M2010, 1 M110, 1 M107, often also has M14 or Mk12 the unit managed to get a hold of. Its not even possible to carry all the weapons at once.Who do you think decides which weapon the team members must carry? The golf bag system of rifle issue and selection has been part of the US military since they started issuing AR10s without turning in bolt guns, while also issuing out XM3, Mk12s, M25, M14EBR and other non MTOE rifles. SOCOM units have even a larger selection. SOCOM is a big umbrella, but the selection is quite similar. I've only done a little work with conventional unit snipers in country. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:00:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What you are showing me is ground with a lot of micro terrain that can be used to walk or crawl right up to a position, devoid of trees that I might want a larger bullet to penetrate. If I were to draw a picture of terrain that the 5.56 was made for it would be either that or a mature tropical jungle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: With Turkey, it makes sense that they stick with a 7.62x51mm cartridge considering their terrain. The Germans have a good reason to stick to a battle rifle, for what reason, we'll find out soon. What you are showing me is ground with a lot of micro terrain that can be used to walk or crawl right up to a position, devoid of trees that I might want a larger bullet to penetrate. If I were to draw a picture of terrain that the 5.56 was made for it would be either that or a mature tropical jungle. Ok, I just highlighted two major points of interest in your statement. First you say that you want a larger bullet to be able to penetrate foliage, THEN you say that the 5.56x45mm cartridge is made for a mature tropical jungle, which has a shitload of foliage?  |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:17:40 PM EDT
[#3]
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SOCOM is a big umbrella, but the selection is quite similar. I've only done a little work with conventional unit snipers in country. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Popular or just what was issue? The guys in the photos didn't make the selection. Most guys with the Mk12 option went that way. I liked the Mk11 and M110 when they became the standard, because they were not the M24, but I carried the Mk12 without thinking twice about any of those rifles. So you don't think MARSOC, Rangers, or CAG can't get MK12s if they wanted to? That they are stuck with AR10s because nothing else is available? Of course they made the selection. A conventional sniper team has at least four rifles to choose from to carry, M40/M24/M2010/Mk13 bolt action, a SR25/M110/Mk11 AR10 rifle, a MK11/DM/M4 AR15, or a M107/M82 SASR. You think they can't pick and choose what they want to bring on missions? SOCOM snipers have even a more diverse array of weapons to choose, and amazingly enough, many choose 7.62. But I guess they are all ignorant.
I'm sure all things are possible somewhere, but I don't think the Mk12 is available through the JOS at this point. Having been involved in T&E for the selection of similar rifles, I can tell you that Now carries what he's given and just goes and does good work. There's very little choice A conventional three man Army sniper team has 3 M4 carbine, 1 M320, 1M2010, 1 M110, 1 M107, often also has M14 or Mk12 the unit managed to get a hold of. Its not even possible to carry all the weapons at once.Who do you think decides which weapon the team members must carry? The golf bag system of rifle issue and selection has been part of the US military since they started issuing AR10s without turning in bolt guns, while also issuing out XM3, Mk12s, M25, M14EBR and other non MTOE rifles. SOCOM units have even a larger selection. SOCOM is a big umbrella, but the selection is quite similar. I've only done a little work with conventional unit snipers in country. Other than the occasional scout platoon leader overstepping their expertise, no one but sniper team leaders or section leaders have the ability to tell a B4 that he has to bring his M110/Mk11, in lieu of other rifles they have issued to the team. The rare occasion was being told to bring the M107, for vehicles or other hard target interdiction. Ranger sniper teams are issued Mk-12s too. Why are they still predominately carrying AR10s over AR15s in Afghanistan? Because they don't know any better? I really don't know why you're arguing this, nobody in their right mind favors 5.56 over 7.62 unless they know the ranges will be shorter. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:25:03 PM EDT
[#4]
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Yes, keep on schooling him on Army sniping programs.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Popular or just what was issue? The guys in the photos didn't make the selection. Most guys with the Mk12 option went that way. I liked the Mk11 and M110 when they became the standard, because they were not the M24, but I carried the Mk12 without thinking twice about any of those rifles. So you don't think MARSOC, Rangers, or CAG can't get MK12s if they wanted to? That they are stuck with AR10s because nothing else is available? Of course they made the selection. A conventional sniper team has at least four rifles to choose from to carry, M40/M24/M2010/Mk13 bolt action, a SR25/M110/Mk11 AR10 rifle, a MK11/DM/M4 AR15, or a M107/M82 SASR. You think they can't pick and choose what they want to bring on missions? SOCOM snipers have even a more diverse array of weapons to choose, and amazingly enough, many choose 7.62. But I guess they are all ignorant.
I'm sure all things are possible somewhere, but I don't think the Mk12 is available through the JOS at this point. Having been involved in T&E for the selection of similar rifles, I can tell you that Now carries what he's given and just goes and does good work. There's very little choice A conventional three man Army sniper team has 3 M4 carbine, 1 M320, 1M2010, 1 M110, 1 M107, often also has M14 or Mk12 the unit managed to get a hold of. Its not even possible to carry all the weapons at once.Who do you think decides which weapon the team members must carry? The golf bag system of rifle issue and selection has been part of the US military since they started issuing AR10s without turning in bolt guns, while also issuing out XM3, Mk12s, M25, M14EBR and other non MTOE rifles. SOCOM units have even a larger selection. Yes, keep on schooling him on Army sniping programs. 
I'm enjoying this debate greatly. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:25:23 PM EDT
[#5]
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Other than the occasional scout platoon leader overstepping their expertise, no one but sniper team leaders or section leaders have the ability to tell a B4 that he has to bring his M110/Mk11, in lieu of other rifles they have issued to the team. The rare occasion was being told to bring the M107, for vehicles or other hard target interdiction. Ranger sniper teams are issued Mk-12s too. Why are they still predominately carrying AR10s over AR15s in Afghanistan? Because they don't know any better? I really don't know why you're arguing this, nobody in their right mind favors 5.56 over 7.62 unless they know the ranges will be shorter. I don't work with Batt, but I was under the impression that the Mk12 was gone from there, too, unless they have some that haven't needed to go back yet to end up confiscated. As for weaponeering, I've always done my own without interference, but it comes down to which platform fits the mission and is actually available. I can only think of two guys I've worked with who wouldn't fight for a Mk12, and they were both former Marines. I brought one to the light, eventually. And I must not be in my right mind, right there with the guys who have lamented the end of the Mk12 with me over their beers. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:25:34 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:36:10 PM EDT
[#7]
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Ok, I just highlighted two major points of interest in your statement. First you say that you want a larger bullet to be able to penetrate foliage, THEN you say that the 5.56x45mm cartridge is made for a mature tropical jungle, which has a shitload of foliage?
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With Turkey, it makes sense that they stick with a 7.62x51mm cartridge considering their terrain. The Germans have a good reason to stick to a battle rifle, for what reason, we'll find out soon. What you are showing me is ground with a lot of micro terrain that can be used to walk or crawl right up to a position, devoid of trees that I might want a larger bullet to penetrate. If I were to draw a picture of terrain that the 5.56 was made for it would be either that or a mature tropical jungle. Ok, I just highlighted two major points of interest in your statement. First you say that you want a larger bullet to be able to penetrate foliage, THEN you say that the 5.56x45mm cartridge is made for a mature tropical jungle, which has a shitload of foliage?
When you have a forest with real trees you can shoot where you think the enemy might be. Through logs or whatever. When the forest is full of leaves you can't see well enough to do that. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:40:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When you have a forest with real trees you can shoot where you think the enemy might be. Through logs or whatever. When the forest is full of leaves you can't see well enough to do that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: With Turkey, it makes sense that they stick with a 7.62x51mm cartridge considering their terrain. The Germans have a good reason to stick to a battle rifle, for what reason, we'll find out soon. What you are showing me is ground with a lot of micro terrain that can be used to walk or crawl right up to a position, devoid of trees that I might want a larger bullet to penetrate. If I were to draw a picture of terrain that the 5.56 was made for it would be either that or a mature tropical jungle. Ok, I just highlighted two major points of interest in your statement. First you say that you want a larger bullet to be able to penetrate foliage, THEN you say that the 5.56x45mm cartridge is made for a mature tropical jungle, which has a shitload of foliage? When you have a forest with real trees you can shoot where you think the enemy might be. Through logs or whatever. When the forest is full of leaves you can't see well enough to do that. You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:44:18 PM EDT
[#9]
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I can have a Mk12, night vision, and we're doing this at night. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wonder if it has anything to do with the longer engagement distances encountered in theaters like Afghanistan. My unit was normally engaged from 800-1200 meters while we were in Gormach. (can't recall spelling) And from my understand that's pretty normal outside of the cities. 5.56 is next to useless at that range, which is why half way though our deployment we got a bunch of EBR's and 2 XM bolt action rifles for some of our DM's to use.
Thats beyond the range of a DM as well. So we should have just stuck with the 5.56 rifles?!?! Are you trolling? Tell you what, I'll get on a high ridge line in a fighting position, and shoot at you with 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R rifles, you take the 5.56 and the low ground. I, I can't even dude your a fucking idiot. I can have a Mk12, night vision, and we're doing this at night. I want thermal and a soda can launcher and 5 coolers of beer. I'll recruit people who know what they're about with the beer, then we'll sit around shooting the soda can launder and I'll sell or take the thermal home. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:46:21 PM EDT
[#10]
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the Germans and Norwegians had G3s fielded in Afghanistan for many years...and not just as a DMR http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/011216/11216719.jpg http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/34582699626968.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e3/21/30/e321305eb2f9a4b219067670cae41660.jpg https://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mekw6s66Yp1r9khx4o1_1280.jpg https://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5dbz6rgvk1r9khx4o1_1280.jpg http://www.strikehold.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/the-return-of-the-g3.jpg http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100625204150/military/images/6/63/65267120_OX7TKnll.jpg http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/011216/11216717.jpg I know enough to know better than to argue with the guys who have used both in combat, but thanks for sharing the pics. G3s are just old school cool, even if there are better options these days.. 
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:50:50 PM EDT
[#11]
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You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? 5.56, because I can carry three times the ammo which means I can suppress and maneuver for three times as long. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:53:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5.56, because I can carry three times the ammo which means I can suppress and maneuver for three times as long. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? 5.56, because I can carry three times the ammo which means I can suppress and maneuver for three times as long. For LMGs, yes, for their purpose is to suppress the enemy and allow other members of the squad or friendlies to flank. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:57:13 PM EDT
[#13]
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For LMGs, yes, for their purpose is to suppress the enemy and allow other members of the squad or friendlies to flank. You have a lot of experience doing that in a fire team? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 6:59:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Too bad they just don't kick these back into production, including the round it was using.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:04:11 PM EDT
[#15]
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You have a lot of experience doing that in a fire team? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For LMGs, yes, for their purpose is to suppress the enemy and allow other members of the squad or friendlies to flank. You have a lot of experience doing that in a fire team? I was kind of thinking that fire superiority would afford me the ability to flank (or whatever) and that I could achieve that better with 5.56mm weapons. I'm not about to get into the weeds with this, but I recall not being too concerned about the caliber of our weapons being too small when sharing an orchard with some bad guys, a place in which one couldn't see more than a few feet without squatting. I just wanted to tip the scales and engage them from a position of strength, whatever that meant. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:05:40 PM EDT
[#16]
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5.56, because I can carry three times the ammo which means I can suppress and maneuver for three times as long. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? 5.56, because I can carry three times the ammo which means I can suppress and maneuver for three times as long. I thought the whole "you need a brush buster!" idea had died off. At least 5.56 lets you carry enough ammo to shoot the enemy after you chop the trees and bushes with bullets. Assuming, of course, for some reason they stayed there while you ineffectually blasted rounds at targets you can't see. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:09:48 PM EDT
[#17]
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I don't work with Batt, but I was under the impression that the Mk12 was gone from there, too, unless they have some that haven't needed to go back yet to end up confiscated. As for weaponeering, I've always done my own without interference, but it comes down to which platform fits the mission and is actually available. I can only think of two guys I've worked with who wouldn't fight for a Mk12, and they were both former Marines. I brought one to the light, eventually. And I must not be in my right mind, right there with the guys who have lamented the end of the Mk12 with me over their beers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Other than the occasional scout platoon leader overstepping their expertise, no one but sniper team leaders or section leaders have the ability to tell a B4 that he has to bring his M110/Mk11, in lieu of other rifles they have issued to the team. The rare occasion was being told to bring the M107, for vehicles or other hard target interdiction. Ranger sniper teams are issued Mk-12s too. Why are they still predominately carrying AR10s over AR15s in Afghanistan? Because they don't know any better? I really don't know why you're arguing this, nobody in their right mind favors 5.56 over 7.62 unless they know the ranges will be shorter. I don't work with Batt, but I was under the impression that the Mk12 was gone from there, too, unless they have some that haven't needed to go back yet to end up confiscated. As for weaponeering, I've always done my own without interference, but it comes down to which platform fits the mission and is actually available. I can only think of two guys I've worked with who wouldn't fight for a Mk12, and they were both former Marines. I brought one to the light, eventually. And I must not be in my right mind, right there with the guys who have lamented the end of the Mk12 with me over their beers. The Rangers had Mk12s up until 2012, and at same time they also had various AR10s and bolt guns, and they often chose 7.62. I guess it comes down to preference and personal opinion. But from my perspective (and many others), .495 G1 BC at 2,600 fps beats .340 at 2,730, especially if targets are outside 600 meters and wind is a factor. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:11:53 PM EDT
[#18]
2600 is mighty fast for 118LR.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:19:01 PM EDT
[#19]
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The Rangers had Mk12s up until 2012, and at same time they also had various AR10s and bolt guns, and they often chose 7.62. I guess it comes down to preference and personal opinion. But from my perspective (and many others), .495 G1 BC at 2,600 fps beats .340 at 2,730, especially if targets are outside 600 meters and wind is a factor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Other than the occasional scout platoon leader overstepping their expertise, no one but sniper team leaders or section leaders have the ability to tell a B4 that he has to bring his M110/Mk11, in lieu of other rifles they have issued to the team. The rare occasion was being told to bring the M107, for vehicles or other hard target interdiction. Ranger sniper teams are issued Mk-12s too. Why are they still predominately carrying AR10s over AR15s in Afghanistan? Because they don't know any better? I really don't know why you're arguing this, nobody in their right mind favors 5.56 over 7.62 unless they know the ranges will be shorter. I don't work with Batt, but I was under the impression that the Mk12 was gone from there, too, unless they have some that haven't needed to go back yet to end up confiscated. As for weaponeering, I've always done my own without interference, but it comes down to which platform fits the mission and is actually available. I can only think of two guys I've worked with who wouldn't fight for a Mk12, and they were both former Marines. I brought one to the light, eventually. And I must not be in my right mind, right there with the guys who have lamented the end of the Mk12 with me over their beers. The Rangers had Mk12s up until 2012, and at same time they also had various AR10s and bolt guns, and they often chose 7.62. I guess it comes down to preference and personal opinion. But from my perspective (and many others), .495 G1 BC at 2,600 fps beats .340 at 2,730, especially if targets are outside 600 meters and wind is a factor. One number beats the other until you have to hump it through the mountains for a few days or transition into something resembling urban operations with either that rifle or an available Mk18. There are a lot more numbers involved than the ballistic coefficient. Both projectiles can be sent where you need them. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:19:54 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ranger sniper teams are issued Mk-12s too. Why are they still predominately carrying AR10s over AR15s in Afghanistan? Because they don't know any better? I really don't know why you're arguing this, nobody in their right mind favors 5.56 over 7.62 unless they know the ranges will be shorter. Errrr. If you look at the data, mk262 shoots just about as flat as 7.62, and some data suggests it shoots alittle better. The only downside is wind effects it more. But when you can carry way more ammo and a lighter system and lighter recoil, the advantages put it ahead of a 7.62 rifle. *shrug* |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:21:22 PM EDT
[#21]
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2600 is mighty fast for 118LR. It's on the high side. 2550ish was common in the 20" tubes. My last 20" shot M118LR at 2520, which was a bit slow. IIRC, my M24s ran in the 2600s. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:22:29 PM EDT
[#22]
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Errrr. If you look at the data, mk262 shoots just about as flat as 7.62, and some data suggests it shoots alittle better. The only downside is wind effects it more. But when you can carry way more ammo and a lighter system and lighter recoil, the advantages put it ahead of a 7.62 rifle. *shrug* Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ranger sniper teams are issued Mk-12s too. Why are they still predominately carrying AR10s over AR15s in Afghanistan? Because they don't know any better? I really don't know why you're arguing this, nobody in their right mind favors 5.56 over 7.62 unless they know the ranges will be shorter. Errrr. If you look at the data, mk262 shoots just about as flat as 7.62, and some data suggests it shoots alittle better. The only downside is wind effects it more. But when you can carry way more ammo and a lighter system and lighter recoil, the advantages put it ahead of a 7.62 rifle. *shrug* Clearly, you're out of your mind. 
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:25:27 PM EDT
[#23]
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Errrr. If you look at the data, mk262 shoots just about as flat as 7.62, and some data suggests it shoots alittle better. The only downside is wind effects it more. But when you can carry way more ammo and a lighter system and lighter recoil, the advantages put it ahead of a 7.62 rifle. *shrug* Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ranger sniper teams are issued Mk-12s too. Why are they still predominately carrying AR10s over AR15s in Afghanistan? Because they don't know any better? I really don't know why you're arguing this, nobody in their right mind favors 5.56 over 7.62 unless they know the ranges will be shorter. Errrr. If you look at the data, mk262 shoots just about as flat as 7.62, and some data suggests it shoots alittle better. The only downside is wind effects it more. But when you can carry way more ammo and a lighter system and lighter recoil, the advantages put it ahead of a 7.62 rifle. *shrug* Post the numbers so we can all see. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:31:22 PM EDT
[#24]
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It's on the high side. 2550ish was common in the 20" tubes. My last 20" shot M118LR at 2520, which was a bit slow. IIRC, my M24s ran in the 2600s. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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2600 is mighty fast for 118LR. It's on the high side. 2550ish was common in the 20" tubes. My last 20" shot M118LR at 2520, which was a bit slow. IIRC, my M24s ran in the 2600s. Bolt gun numbers for 5.56 out of 24" barrels are pretty impressive, too. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:34:41 PM EDT
[#25]
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. I'm not about to get into the weeds with this, but I recall not being too concerned about the caliber of our weapons being too small when sharing an orchard with some bad guys, a place in which one couldn't see more than a few feet without squatting. I just wanted to tip the scales and engage them from a position of strength, whatever that meant. Sorry if I'm helping contribute to the derail, I just thought Valentino might like to tout his firefight credentials if he's going to talk about squad tactics in relation to the caliber debate. Back on the topic of the article, my opinion of what's going on in order of probability: 1) German military needed more 417s and someone at the newspaper is reporting it as a replacement for the G36 even though it isn't. 2) Recognizing how bad the G36 performance has been, the Germans are using a 417 order they already placed as a stopgap for some guys deploying while they figure out what 5.56 they're going to replace the G36 with. ETA: As just a guy who enjoys shooting, I'll own and shoot both and be happy about it. I'll leave the logistical and equipment discussions to the guys who know something about it. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:35:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Too bad they just don't kick these back into production, including the round it was using. http://www.armoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/STG44-Sturmgewehr.jpg Cross-bolt selector was crap and which made the trigger mechanism needlessly complex, magazines were crap unless you loaded only to 25, handguards heated up rapidly due to gas system, annnd that's about it for the negatives. Still, good rifle. Would be great if they refined the design. The Kurz cartridge would be quiet a radical change. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:41:56 PM EDT
[#27]
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Post the numbers so we can all see. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ranger sniper teams are issued Mk-12s too. Why are they still predominately carrying AR10s over AR15s in Afghanistan? Because they don't know any better? I really don't know why you're arguing this, nobody in their right mind favors 5.56 over 7.62 unless they know the ranges will be shorter. Errrr. If you look at the data, mk262 shoots just about as flat as 7.62, and some data suggests it shoots alittle better. The only downside is wind effects it more. But when you can carry way more ammo and a lighter system and lighter recoil, the advantages put it ahead of a 7.62 rifle. *shrug* Post the numbers so we can all see. Based on data from identical atmospherics checked against fired data (chronographed velocity verified at distance according to BC). My last issued SPR, 18" barrel, Mk262, HOB 2.6" Elevation 500y-2.68 mils 750y-5.62 mils 1000y-9.74 mils My last issued Mk11, 20" barrel, M118LR, HOB 2.71" Elevation 500y-3.25 mils 750y-6.41 mils 1000y-10.40 mils |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:45:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry if I'm helping contribute to the derail, I just thought Valentino might like to tout his firefight credentials if he's going to talk about squad tactics in relation to the caliber debate. (Snip) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: . I'm not about to get into the weeds with this, but I recall not being too concerned about the caliber of our weapons being too small when sharing an orchard with some bad guys, a place in which one couldn't see more than a few feet without squatting. I just wanted to tip the scales and engage them from a position of strength, whatever that meant. Sorry if I'm helping contribute to the derail, I just thought Valentino might like to tout his firefight credentials if he's going to talk about squad tactics in relation to the caliber debate. (Snip) Alright, then educate me. What are Light Machine Guns used for on the modern day battlefield? Are they not designed with the intent of providing suppressive firepower as to degrade the enemy's performance and allow friendlies to maneuver? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:47:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Alright, then educate me. What are Light Machine Guns used for on the modern day battlefield? Are they not designed with the intent of providing suppressive firepower as to degrade the enemy's performance and allow friendlies to maneuver? 
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. I'm not about to get into the weeds with this, but I recall not being too concerned about the caliber of our weapons being too small when sharing an orchard with some bad guys, a place in which one couldn't see more than a few feet without squatting. I just wanted to tip the scales and engage them from a position of strength, whatever that meant. Sorry if I'm helping contribute to the derail, I just thought Valentino might like to tout his firefight credentials if he's going to talk about squad tactics in relation to the caliber debate. (Snip) Alright, then educate me. What are Light Machine Guns used for on the modern day battlefield? Are they not designed with the intent of providing suppressive firepower as to degrade the enemy's performance and allow friendlies to maneuver?
So that's a "none", right? Mine is the same....which is why I'm not running my mouth about how things "should" be done to guys who actually do it. Might be something to consider.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:51:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So that's a "none", right? Mine is the same....which is why I'm not running my mouth about how things "should" be done to guys who actually do it. Might be something to consider. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: . I'm not about to get into the weeds with this, but I recall not being too concerned about the caliber of our weapons being too small when sharing an orchard with some bad guys, a place in which one couldn't see more than a few feet without squatting. I just wanted to tip the scales and engage them from a position of strength, whatever that meant. Sorry if I'm helping contribute to the derail, I just thought Valentino might like to tout his firefight credentials if he's going to talk about squad tactics in relation to the caliber debate. (Snip) Alright, then educate me. What are Light Machine Guns used for on the modern day battlefield? Are they not designed with the intent of providing suppressive firepower as to degrade the enemy's performance and allow friendlies to maneuver? So that's a "none", right? Mine is the same....which is why I'm not running my mouth about how things "should" be done to guys who actually do it. Might be something to consider. And John Moses Browning never served a day in a military but he designed the most effective killing machines ever devised that militaries across the globe use. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 7:55:05 PM EDT
[#31]
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And John Moses Browning never served a day in a military but he designed the most effective killing machines ever devised that militaries across the globe use.
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. I'm not about to get into the weeds with this, but I recall not being too concerned about the caliber of our weapons being too small when sharing an orchard with some bad guys, a place in which one couldn't see more than a few feet without squatting. I just wanted to tip the scales and engage them from a position of strength, whatever that meant. Sorry if I'm helping contribute to the derail, I just thought Valentino might like to tout his firefight credentials if he's going to talk about squad tactics in relation to the caliber debate. (Snip) Alright, then educate me. What are Light Machine Guns used for on the modern day battlefield? Are they not designed with the intent of providing suppressive firepower as to degrade the enemy's performance and allow friendlies to maneuver?
So that's a "none", right? Mine is the same....which is why I'm not running my mouth about how things "should" be done to guys who actually do it. Might be something to consider. And John Moses Browning never served a day in a military but he designed the most effective killing machines ever devised that militaries across the globe use.
John Moses Browning is a funny way to spell "Samuel Curran." 
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:08:02 PM EDT
[#32]
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Based on data from identical atmospherics checked against fired data (chronographed velocity verified at distance according to BC). My last issued SPR, 18" barrel, Mk262, HOB 2.6" Elevation 500y-2.68 mils 750y-5.62 mils 1000y-9.74 mils My last issued Mk11, 20" barrel, M118LR, HOB 2.71" Elevation 500y-3.25 mils 750y-6.41 mils 1000y-10.40 mils Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ranger sniper teams are issued Mk-12s too. Why are they still predominately carrying AR10s over AR15s in Afghanistan? Because they don't know any better? I really don't know why you're arguing this, nobody in their right mind favors 5.56 over 7.62 unless they know the ranges will be shorter. Errrr. If you look at the data, mk262 shoots just about as flat as 7.62, and some data suggests it shoots alittle better. The only downside is wind effects it more. But when you can carry way more ammo and a lighter system and lighter recoil, the advantages put it ahead of a 7.62 rifle. *shrug* Post the numbers so we can all see. Based on data from identical atmospherics checked against fired data (chronographed velocity verified at distance according to BC). My last issued SPR, 18" barrel, Mk262, HOB 2.6" Elevation 500y-2.68 mils 750y-5.62 mils 1000y-9.74 mils My last issued Mk11, 20" barrel, M118LR, HOB 2.71" Elevation 500y-3.25 mils 750y-6.41 mils 1000y-10.40 mils What velocities and BC are you using? I'd like to run the numbers myself to check. How about wind? And time of flight? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:08:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? 7.62 was so good for that mission, the russians fielded the AK-74. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:12:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 7.62 was so good for that mission, the russians fielded the AK-74. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? 7.62 was so good for that mission, the russians fielded the AK-74. Lots of 7.62 NATO people don't want to accept that fact. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:14:11 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What velocities and BC are you using? I'd like to run the numbers myself to check. How about wind? And time of flight? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ranger sniper teams are issued Mk-12s too. Why are they still predominately carrying AR10s over AR15s in Afghanistan? Because they don't know any better? I really don't know why you're arguing this, nobody in their right mind favors 5.56 over 7.62 unless they know the ranges will be shorter. Errrr. If you look at the data, mk262 shoots just about as flat as 7.62, and some data suggests it shoots alittle better. The only downside is wind effects it more. But when you can carry way more ammo and a lighter system and lighter recoil, the advantages put it ahead of a 7.62 rifle. *shrug* Post the numbers so we can all see. Based on data from identical atmospherics checked against fired data (chronographed velocity verified at distance according to BC). My last issued SPR, 18" barrel, Mk262, HOB 2.6" Elevation 500y-2.68 mils 750y-5.62 mils 1000y-9.74 mils My last issued Mk11, 20" barrel, M118LR, HOB 2.71" Elevation 500y-3.25 mils 750y-6.41 mils 1000y-10.40 mils What velocities and BC are you using? I'd like to run the numbers myself to check. How about wind? And time of flight? G1 .496 and .362, respectively. MK262 needs roughly a third more windage down range. I don't have TOF numbers here. ETA: velocity chronographed and verified downrange as 2520 and 2856. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:17:28 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think they want more DMRs. Politicians can say "we're doing something" and get it done. Replacing 100K rifles isn't going to happen so quickly. With 600, they can push them into DMR positions once a more permanent solution comes through. The Germans already use the 417 as a DMR, but I suppose they were going to buy more anyways. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They just jumped calibers for the hell of it?? I think they want more DMRs. Politicians can say "we're doing something" and get it done. Replacing 100K rifles isn't going to happen so quickly. With 600, they can push them into DMR positions once a more permanent solution comes through. The Germans already use the 417 as a DMR, but I suppose they were going to buy more anyways. This. This order has pretty much nothing to do with replacing the G36. They are displacing some close quarters capabilities with more DMRs, which these will be used for. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:24:54 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 7.62 was so good for that mission, the russians fielded the AK-74. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? 7.62 was so good for that mission, the russians fielded the AK-74. I think I just lost an IQ point or two from hearing that. The Russians paid attention to US developments of a intermediate cartridge that had higher velocity and less recoil. Thus they started following the same path since it was easier to train conscripts to shoot accurately in distances of 500 meters or less. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:29:17 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I just lost an IQ point or two from hearing that.
The Russians paid attention to US developments of a intermediate cartridge that had higher velocity and less recoil. Thus they started following the same path since it was easier to train conscripts to shoot accurately in distances of 500 meters or less. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? 7.62 was so good for that mission, the russians fielded the AK-74. I think I just lost an IQ point or two from hearing that.
The Russians paid attention to US developments of a intermediate cartridge that had higher velocity and less recoil. Thus they started following the same path since it was easier to train conscripts to shoot accurately in distances of 500 meters or less. Which is why all the elite special operations units around the world avoid 5.56 weapons use a version of 7.62. Conscripts like light and accurate. elite forces like heavy and not quite as accurate. hey, I watch the discovery channel and SEALs use M14s and M60s because they are elite. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:32:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which is why all the elite special operations units around the world avoid 5.56 weapons use a version of 7.62. Conscripts like light and accurate. elite forces like heavy and not quite as accurate. hey, I watch the discovery channel and SEALs use M14s and M60s because they are elite. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? 7.62 was so good for that mission, the russians fielded the AK-74. I think I just lost an IQ point or two from hearing that. The Russians paid attention to US developments of a intermediate cartridge that had higher velocity and less recoil. Thus they started following the same path since it was easier to train conscripts to shoot accurately in distances of 500 meters or less. Which is why all the elite special operations units around the world avoid 5.56 weapons use a version of 7.62. Conscripts like light and accurate. elite forces like heavy and not quite as accurate. hey, I watch the discovery channel and SEALs use M14s and M60s because they are elite. No, they use M1903s and Miami Throw Away Pistols. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:33:43 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I just lost an IQ point or two from hearing that.
The Russians paid attention to US developments of a intermediate cartridge that had higher velocity and less recoil. Thus they started following the same path since it was easier to train conscripts to shoot accurately in distances of 500 meters or less. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? 7.62 was so good for that mission, the russians fielded the AK-74. I think I just lost an IQ point or two from hearing that.
The Russians paid attention to US developments of a intermediate cartridge that had higher velocity and less recoil. Thus they started following the same path since it was easier to train conscripts to shoot accurately in distances of 500 meters or less. Wait, so you don't like 5.56, but recognize it does its mission better than 7.62 calibers do? Am I missing something? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:41:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait, so you don't like 5.56, but recognize it does its mission better than 7.62 calibers do? Am I missing something? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You are still going to have to shoot through all kinds of crap, no matter if you see it or not. If you were in a tropical jungle and there's reports of enemy movement and one of your men confirm, would you want the 5.56mm or the 7.62x51mm to shoot through possible branches, leaves, trees, and roots? 7.62 was so good for that mission, the russians fielded the AK-74. I think I just lost an IQ point or two from hearing that. The Russians paid attention to US developments of a intermediate cartridge that had higher velocity and less recoil. Thus they started following the same path since it was easier to train conscripts to shoot accurately in distances of 500 meters or less. Wait, so you don't like 5.56, but recognize it does its mission better than 7.62 calibers do? Am I missing something? I recognize all benefits and detriments of something. It's just pragmatic of me. Does 5.56 have a higher velocity and offer less recoil? Yes. Does 7.62x51 have greater energy and is less susceptible to wind drift? Yes, although I will be biased at times to this particular cartridge. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:44:27 PM EDT
[#42]
I mean, that whole "it's easier for conscripts to make hits" thing is a pretty big deal...
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:48:58 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I mean, that whole "it's easier for conscripts to make hits" thing is a pretty big deal... Wasn't too hard to make our draftees kill some Nazis and Commies back in the 40s and 50s. Then again, evolution of the soldier. Sucks but I desperately hope Germany adopts a battle rifle so we can get some surplus 308 in the future. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 8:56:45 PM EDT
[#44]
When the Army adopted the M16 they had to make the qualification course harder because scores went up by a large amount.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 9:02:14 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wasn't too hard to make our draftees kill some Nazis and Commies back in the 40s and 50s.
Then again, evolution of the soldier. Sucks but I desperately hope Germany adopts a battle rifle so we can get some surplus 308 in the future. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I mean, that whole "it's easier for conscripts to make hits" thing is a pretty big deal...
Wasn't too hard to make our draftees kill some Nazis and Commies back in the 40s and 50s.
Then again, evolution of the soldier. Sucks but I desperately hope Germany adopts a battle rifle so we can get some surplus 308 in the future. It would be nice to be able to shoot my FALs for next to nothing, again. Still have a few thousand rounds of German .308 stuck in the back. I can't break my affinity for .308, even though on an intellectual level, I realize 5.56 is as close as we're going to get to a perfect self defense/combat cartridge. My L1A1 couldn't be a better ergonomic fit if it were handmade, which is a large part of why I have that affinity. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 9:02:24 PM EDT
[#46]
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When the Army adopted the M16 they had to make the qualification course harder because scores went up by a large amount. can you imagine how hard the current qual would be with a garand? I really want to try it. Better sights, but harder reload and more recoil. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 9:03:17 PM EDT
[#47]
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It would be nice to be able to shoot my FALs for next to nothing, again. Still have a few thousand rounds of German .308 stuck in the back. I can't break my affinity for .308, even though on an intellectual level, I realize 5.56 is as close as we're going to get to a perfect self defense/combat cartridge. My L1A1 couldn't be a better ergonomic fit if it were handmade, which is a large part of why I have that affinity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I mean, that whole "it's easier for conscripts to make hits" thing is a pretty big deal...
Wasn't too hard to make our draftees kill some Nazis and Commies back in the 40s and 50s.
Then again, evolution of the soldier. Sucks but I desperately hope Germany adopts a battle rifle so we can get some surplus 308 in the future. It would be nice to be able to shoot my FALs for next to nothing, again. Still have a few thousand rounds of German .308 stuck in the back. I can't break my affinity for .308, even though on an intellectual level, I realize 5.56 is as close as we're going to get to a perfect self defense/combat cartridge. My L1A1 couldn't be a better ergonomic fit if it were handmade, which is a large part of why I have that affinity. The first step is identifying you have a problem. 
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Posted: 8/30/2015 9:03:44 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When the Army adopted the M16 they had to make the qualification course harder because scores went up by a large amount. Very interesting...not that I'm doubting you, but what was the qualification before M16? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 9:09:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Are the Germans completely ditching the G36 or are they planning on making modifications to it in order to salvage it? If they move away from the G36, what is likely to become their new standard issue weapon....the HK416 maybe?
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Posted: 8/30/2015 9:10:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It would be nice to be able to shoot my FALs for next to nothing, again. Still have a few thousand rounds of German .308 stuck in the back. I can't break my affinity for .308, even though on an intellectual level, I realize 5.56 is as close as we're going to get to a perfect self defense/combat cartridge. My L1A1 couldn't be a better ergonomic fit if it were handmade, which is a large part of why I have that affinity. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I mean, that whole "it's easier for conscripts to make hits" thing is a pretty big deal... Wasn't too hard to make our draftees kill some Nazis and Commies back in the 40s and 50s. Then again, evolution of the soldier. Sucks but I desperately hope Germany adopts a battle rifle so we can get some surplus 308 in the future. It would be nice to be able to shoot my FALs for next to nothing, again. Still have a few thousand rounds of German .308 stuck in the back. I can't break my affinity for .308, even though on an intellectual level, I realize 5.56 is as close as we're going to get to a perfect self defense/combat cartridge. My L1A1 couldn't be a better ergonomic fit if it were handmade, which is a large part of why I have that affinity. I was born to late to get into that game. So enjoy your memories as I sob after every 50 cent goes flying out the barrel of my 308 AR. |
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