Quoted: Quoted: Can  we just declare war on a country with some modern aircraft and see how they do?  This speculation is getting old. We should make a bet with Russia. Russia can get 10 of their best pilots, and put them in any of their country's production aircraft of choice. We put 10 of ours in Raptors. Whoever wins the simulation (no live fire, LOL!) gets ultimate bragging rights. I'd put my money on those Raptors, however.

I'm sure that's already been done.  Anyone know how the F22 has done against the latest MiG's/Sukhoi's, or have they not bothered because we are invincible?  Sorry if I missed it.

Quoted: i3.tinypic.com/vr50cl.jpg i3.tinypic.com/vr4w0i.jpg Looks like the USN has a great and worthy replacement for the F-14 in the F-18F

Now that P-51s have heads up displays, lets build thousands of them for the numerical advantage!

Quoted: Whats this about 2 F-117's being shot down in Kosovo?  I only remember 1.  And Damn Klinton for not bombing the wreckage.  The Serbs shipped it to the Russians and Chinese immediatly.   I do agree that we don't have nearly enough of them though.  We should definatly buy more of them. -K

The one wreck was taken into the Chinese embassy in Kosovo and promptly blown up. The coordinates were the only ones in the war determined by the CIA.

Quoted: Can  we just declare war on a country with some modern aircraft and see how they do?  This speculation is getting old.

Agreed.

Quoted: Quoted: Can  we just declare war on a country with some modern aircraft and see how they do?  This speculation is getting old. We should make a bet with Russia. Russia can get 10 of their best pilots, and put them in any of their country's production aircraft of choice. We put 10 of ours in Raptors. Whoever wins the simulation (no live fire, LOL!) gets ultimate bragging rights. I'd put my money on those Raptors, however.

Why not Israel? Given their small area of air space  they need to know how to  deal with very tight turns.

I just want our Air Force to be able to fuck China's shit up when the time comes.

If the USAF really wanted to make everything in the sky obsolete they would get of their @sses and finish the ABL. I don't even like Boeing but I recognize that a laser-armed 747 that can shoot down multiple scuds from 100+ miles would also be able to shoot down ANY fighter. Hell, it could also take out any air to air missile or UAV.

Of course, that would mean no fighter pilots, so the USAF won't do it.

Quoted: Whats this about 2 F-117's being shot down in Kosovo?  I only remember 1.  And Damn Klinton for not bombing the wreckage.  The Serbs shipped it to the Russians and Chinese immediatly.   I do agree that we don't have nearly enough of them though.  We should definatly buy more of them. -K

Although only 1 crashed, IIRC the other was was badly damaged and barely made it home. Although not 'shot down' per se, it was most definately rendered 'non operational'.

Quoted: Why not Israel? Given their small area of air space  they need to know how to  deal with very tight turns.

Mainly because I thought their tactics and equipment were too much like ours.

Going up against Israeli F-15s isn't much different than pitting Raptors against our own.


However, an Su-37 would be a completely different story...

Quoted: Quoted: Can  we just declare war on a country with some modern aircraft and see how they do?  This speculation is getting old. We should make a bet with Russia. Russia can get 10 of their best pilots, and put them in any of their country's production aircraft of choice. We put 10 of ours in Raptors. Whoever wins the simulation (no live fire, LOL!) gets ultimate bragging rights. I'd put my money on those Raptors, however.

a few years ago, the russians made exactly this challenge to the rest of the world.

the sukhoi design bureau challenged any fighter, any pilot, any time, anywhere, to fight a flanker WVR.

no one, repeat no one, had the stones to call their bet.

Quoted: no one, repeat no one, had the stones to call their bet.

More like nobody had the desire. Why give the enemy a look at your best? For Western nations, it would make no sense.

Quoted: Quoted: Tehranasaurus_Rex  =  vito113   naah, vito would at least post pics www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-22-19990601-f-0000l-001.jpg Miss him and his insights. You always need a wiseass to keep you on your feet.

Speaking of ANdy, where did he go? I haven't seen him in a while...

Quoted: If the USAF really wanted to make everything in the sky obsolete they would get of their @sses and finish the ABL. I don't even like Boeing but I recognize that a laser-armed 747 that can shoot down multiple scuds from 100+ miles would also be able to shoot down ANY fighter. Hell, it could also take out any air to air missile or UAV. Of course, that would mean no fighter pilots, so the USAF won't do it.

ABL is in work, right now.  This is a big deal and it's way more complicated than sticking a couple of lights from Edmund Scientific in the cargo bay of a freighter.  Everything has to be invented from scratch, or at best, integrated from scratch to make a viable machine.

Quoted: Um wrong on several counts... But hey, I'm not a media expert. Given the 4 criteria: (1) See the enemy first; Raptor prolly has the most advanced radar and fire control in the world not to mention passive sensors and awacs integration (2) outnumber the enemy; Ok, its boned there cuz congress won't buy it. (3) outmaneuver the enemy to fire: Raptor is fast it can supercruise i.e. supersonic w/o afterburner (speed=life), plus it has thrust vectoring = highly manuverable (4) kill the enemy quickly; it uses the best US missles, and has off boresight capability. Better or at least equal to other top fighters.

Wasn't its radar/avionics unit replaced with that from the F-18 Super Hornet?

Quoted: I guess, I'm thinking F-14.............. it wasn't the aircraft's ability that got it replaced, it was it's maint. per flight hour requirements. I thought state of the art design, included ease of maint in the design.

I was concerned about that too. However, after reading some posts by aviators with experience operating with the F-14 right here on arfcom, they didn't seem to think it was that big of a loss.

It was quite a surprising thread for me.

A Raptor can leave his own radar turned off and datalink, using the radar from another Raptor (say, 50 miles behind him), or link with an Aegis cruiser, AWACS, or Patriot battery.

The pilot doesn't "have" to turn on his own radar to see you.

As for ACM, one article I read that told about individual Raptor pilots going up against multiple F-15Cs had an F-22 driver compare it to "clubbing baby seals."

Sure, the Corps is going to get a lot of mileage out of that HUD shot where a Raptor pilot apparently made a big mistake, but keep in mind a shot like that will be the exception and not the rule.

By the way, that article was a prime example of a "journalist" expressing an opinion with no knowledge to back it up.

I'm sure that people who have no background in aviation will now think that the 22 is a dog, but that's the way the media manipulates the uninformed on political matters, too.

I still think our best bet is to axe the F-35, bulk purchase F-22/a's and develop a naval version to placate the squids. If weapons procurement programs are going to continue to be this drawn out and expensive the current high-low mix concept the USAF has with the F-15/F-16 is completely unworkable. It makes more sense from a force perspective and a financial perspective to develop the best fighter you can and let the economies of scale bring the unit cost down.

The only saving grace of the F-35 is the fact that the air force has the foresight to put the drive shaft equipped engines on their conventional take off variant to eventually mount a high powered mid-infrared solid state laser on them.

That being said seeing how the ABLs flight test program goes is going to be really exciting. If that thing works as advertised it is going to change the way we fight the war in the air. I can only imagine a second generation ABL that's based around flight ready solid state or free electron lasers that won't have to 'reload' after a dozen or so firings.


Edited to add: And as far as our British and Ausi allies I say we just go ahead and offer them both full strength versions of the Raptor, it's not like BAE couldn't produce the AESA radar nativley if it had the funding or desire to do so. Make it a trade deal we sell the UK raptors in exchange for getting a liscence to produce the Meteor, which we need badly, in the US. If we don't get the Meteor we need to boost funding to ATK Thiokol and get their scram jet powered cruise missile and AAM into production soon.

Whats this ABL you guys are mentioning?

Quoted: Whats this ABL you guys are mentioning?

www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/

Quoted: Quoted: Whats this ABL you guys are mentioning? www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/

I keep thinking "Reagan Star Wars"
We've moved our lasers from space based satellites to airplanes.

Either way, looks kick ass. Hope they get it working.