The Box O' Truth vs Rags Pics - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Box O' Truth vs Rags Pics (Page 2 of 4)

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:41:04 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:

3. If the North Koreans seemed uneffected by the .30 Carbine rounds, they were probably not being hit. Because clothing won't stop a 30 Carbine.

Incorrect Test Parameters

You would need to wet and freeze/partially freeze the clothing layers

I understand your objections, but I think out tests are valid.

The clothing of the North Koreans was not frozen solid, but might have had a slightly frozen exterior of ice on the surface.

From my observations, that would not have stopped the 30 carbine.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:41:25 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Loaded magazines worn in a chest righ mag the biggest difference. M855 only pentrates a few inches of flesh after passing through an AK chest rig.

Can you get some cheap steel AK mags and shoot through those?

I guess if there is enough interest and enough donations on the website at www.theboxotruth.com/ I could shoot some up.

It's all a matter of expense.

PP donation inbound. I really enjoy these tests.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:43:35 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:

3. If the North Koreans seemed uneffected by the .30 Carbine rounds, they were probably not being hit. Because clothing won't stop a 30 Carbine.

Incorrect Test Parameters

You would need to wet and freeze/partially freeze the clothing layers

Did you notice the part about the .30carbine going through everything, exploding the bottle and taking a chunk out of the cement block....

I think the contrast between the carbine and all of the pistol rounds was quite revealing.

Thanks again, love your test Old_Painless.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:43:39 AM EDT

[#4]

Conclusion...bullets work better on people when they are naked.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:44:11 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

PP donation inbound. I really enjoy these tests.

Many thanks.

IM or e-mail me suggestions, as you have in the past. I appreciate it.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:45:15 AM EDT

[#6]

Hrmmm. Ok from now on in cold weather (like we have that in Fl), I'm going to carry FMJ in one magazine, and hollowpoints in another magazine. The HP's are just in case a naked guy jumps me.

*damn! Monkey beat me.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:47:10 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Awesome test as usual O_P.

Re: the M-1 carbine in Korea: I'd read the theory that the silk underwear/clothing the Koreans used would get infused with and stiffen from sweat and that was why the carbine was perceived to be a less than capable weapon. YES, it's a technicality. The BO'T vs. Rags test stands on its own. In all honesty I think the controversy is bunk- the l'il carbine served well in WWII as Audie Murphy and many others will testify.

Great stuff!

Edit: FFYR beat me to it!

Given the poor history of the .30-40 Krag and the early .303, poor performance of the .30 Carbine is probably to be expected. The 7.62x39 seems to also offer poor performance, except in this case the result is more Americans surviving. All the above rounds tend to punch .30 holes (actually somewhat smaller) deep into living tissue.

The .30 carbine probably didn't develop such a poor rep in WW2 due to the nature of the conflict. European warefare doesn't seem to require good bullet performance, probably due to cultural reasons. In the Pacific, the Japs largely died defending bunkers, at least when the carbine became common (M1917s and M1911s worked well for the Raiders on Guadacanal).

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:47:27 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Some loads that do really well through heavy clothing are:

CCI/Speer 124Gn (+P) GDHP 9mm
Winchester Ranget RA9T 147Gn 9mm

Woohoo! My carry round!

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:49:12 AM EDT

[#9]

I'll update the site in a bit. This third world internet is being third worldish lately.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:51:48 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I'll update the site in a bit. This third world internet is being third worldish lately.

No problem old buddy.

You're my hero.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:53:18 AM EDT

[#11]

Ol Painless, thanks for the pics and the info! It's always fun and informative to see what you've done! I think the Box 'O Truth will become an ARFCOM legend!

About the .30 Carbine, tho, I think what was happening in Korea was that the little bastards were usually hyped up on some kind of narcotic, and the .30 Carbine, though it penetrated, didn't do enough damage, so the little bastards could keep going for a short time. I even read it once saying that if one of the little bastards was hit in the heart, and the heart was destroyed, he could still go for about 8 seconds before he keeled over.

I think the .30 Carbine is a very underappreciated round. With some good soft point or hollow point rounds, it's a kick ass carbine. I think I'm gonna have to get another M1 Carbine someday...

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:54:20 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Given the poor history of the .30-40 Krag and the early .303, poor performance of the .30 Carbine is probably to be expected. The 7.62x39 seems to also offer poor performance, except in this case the result is more Americans surviving. All the above rounds tend to punch .30 holes (actually somewhat smaller) deep into living tissue.

The .30 carbine probably didn't develop such a poor rep in WW2 due to the nature of the conflict. European warefare doesn't seem to require good bullet performance, probably due to cultural reasons. In the Pacific, the Japs largely died defending bunkers, at least when the carbine became common (M1917s and M1911s worked well for the Raiders on Guadacanal).

I agree completely.

The question seemed to be, "Did the thick clothing of the North Koreans stop the .30 Carbine from penetrating into the commies?"

The answer is , No.

The non-expanding, non-fragmenting .30 Ball Carbine ammo was not a great "knock-down" round, but it penetrated their clothing.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:55:48 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Thanks for including the .30carbine in this test, I will point to it every time someone recites the winter clothing myth.

Before we label this a myth, how about a test where you refrigerate and freeze the ammunition to see the differences in terminal effects? A chrony would probably be better, but not as much fun.

In Korea, they were around zero degrees Fahrenheit. Could have slowed the chemical reaction in the powder enough to blunt terminal effects. Plus wet down insulation could be quite challenging for a bullet.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:56:29 AM EDT

[#14]

Well, with the donations that have come in already, and pending the free time that Old_Painless has (hahah, that shouldn't be a problem), I think another BoT article could come along soon.

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:58:45 AM EDT

[#15]

Very good, fellas. Have you discussed trying a vehicle door yet?

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:59:17 AM EDT

[#16]

OP,

If you could get a safe setup for firing together, how about firing against some sheet metal? I always hear that .45ACP will punch through the sheet metal on a car but that 9mm P will not. Maybe space out two or three sheets with your water jug behind it and see what happens?

Let em scrounge around, might have a couple of SA80 mags you could use to test the "loaded magazine saved his life" test. Heck, you could probably get people to donate USA mags to the cause, seems to be all the mags are good for!

Posted: 3/1/2005 11:59:23 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks for including the .30carbine in this test, I will point to it every time someone recites the winter clothing myth.

Before we label this a myth, how about a test where you refrigerate and freeze the ammunition to see the differences in terminal effects? A chrony would probably be better, but not as much fun.

In Korea, they were around zero degrees Fahrenheit. Could have slowed the chemical reaction in the powder enough to blunt terminal effects. Plus wet down insulation could be quite challenging for a bullet.

Or maybe they just missed and chose to blame the gun. Where are the storys about the far less powerfull handgun/subgun rounds bouncing off clothing? Its a myth. Period.

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:02:56 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

I think the .30 Carbine is a very underappreciated round. With some good soft point or hollow point rounds, it's a kick ass carbine. I think I'm gonna have to get another M1 Carbine someday...

I like the M-1 carbine, and would like to have one. That said, given 16" and 14.5" ARs firing M193 and the heavy bullet (69 gr, 75 gr, and 77 gr) loads, the carbine is hard to justify on practicle grounds.

I'm not convinced of .30 carbine SPs or JHPs. I would be concearned about either over expansion (and poor penetration), or lack of expansion (and tiny wound channels). I need to see some good test results first, properly calibrated. The rounds that get the development (funding) tend to be 5.56, 9mm, .45 and .40. The .30 carbine is something of an orphin in this day and age.

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:03:30 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Very good, fellas. Have you discussed trying a vehicle door yet?

A .22lr will blow thru a ford truck door.

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:05:13 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
OP,

If you could get a safe setup for firing together, how about firing against some sheet metal? I always hear that .45ACP will punch through the sheet metal on a car but that 9mm P will not. Maybe space out two or three sheets with your water jug behind it and see what happens?

Let em scrounge around, might have a couple of SA80 mags you could use to test the "loaded magazine saved his life" test. Heck, you could probably get people to donate USA mags to the cause, seems to be all the mags are good for!

I was thinking the same thing.

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:05:25 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Very good, fellas. Have you discussed trying a vehicle door yet?

I am working on it.

Stay tuned.

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:06:14 PM EDT

[#22]

My summary.

Use hollow points on shirtless, redneck white trash in the summer.

Use my AR during the winter

Thanks OP

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:07:58 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
My summary.

Use hollow points on shirtless, redneck white trash in the summer.

Use my AR during the winter

Thanks OP

rofl

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:16:03 PM EDT

[#24]

another great installment of the TBOT

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:20:23 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:

I think the .30 Carbine is a very underappreciated round. With some good soft point or hollow point rounds, it's a kick ass carbine. I think I'm gonna have to get another M1 Carbine someday...

I like the M-1 carbine, and would like to have one. That said, given 16" and 14.5" ARs firing M193 and the heavy bullet (69 gr, 75 gr, and 77 gr) loads, the carbine is hard to justify on practicle grounds.

I'm not convinced of .30 carbine SPs or JHPs. I would be concearned about either over expansion (and poor penetration), or lack of expansion (and tiny wound channels). I need to see some good test results first, properly calibrated.

It's been done. Go to tactical forums.

www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000084#000000

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:25:12 PM EDT

[#26]

Newsflash!

Old hollowpoint designs suck against clothing!

I can't even remember how many times I've stated that Hydra-shok's suck compared to new designs. Thanks OP for helping prove my point.

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:27:20 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Newsflash!

Old hollowpoint designs suck against clothing!

I can't even remember how many times I've stated that Hydra-shok's suck compared to new designs. Thanks OP for helping prove my point.

You're welcome.

It says something about my age that I still have Black Talons and Hydroshocks in inventory. I guess it's time to shoot 'em up.

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:31:31 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Newsflash!

Old hollowpoint designs suck against clothing!

I can't even remember how many times I've stated that Hydra-shok's suck compared to new designs. Thanks OP for helping prove my point.

You're welcome.

It says something about my age that I still have Black Talons and Hydroshocks in inventory. I guess it's time to shoot 'em up.

Do you have any Winchester Ranger-T's in any caliber? They would be an excellent addition to this experiment.

Federal Tacticals and some of the newer Gold-Dot's as well.

I might have some 147gr 9mm Rangers and some 180gr .40 Rangers to spare.

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:35:34 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
" We were surprised by the difference the clothing made in the pistol rounds performance. It sure seemed to make a big difference in whether the bullets expanded or not."

This tendency is well documented. The clothing plugs the hollowpoint turning it into JSP/Ball profile. FBI has been testing for it for at least 10 years. Modern bullet designs, and the Black Talon and Hydroshok are not modern, are designed to expand even after passing through heavy clothing.

Some loads that do really well through heavy clothing are:

CCI/Speer 124Gn (+P) GDHP 9mm
Winchester Ranget RA9T 147Gn 9mm

Also Ranger SXT in .40S&W and PMC Starfire Eldorado in .40S&W, both 180 grain loads. We tested them in 4 layers of denim then into the ballistic gelatin and still got 6-8 inches of penetration with good expansion.

Good Job OP on the thread, awesome job ! ! !

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:36:01 PM EDT

[#30]

Another great job OP & Tman !!

I love everytime I see a new BoT has been posted.

Keep up the good work.

LB

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:39:41 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Will you adopt me?

G23c

Are you a really pretty woman with lots of money?

Normally I would lie, but I don't think that will work.

G23c

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:43:38 PM EDT

[#32]

I love these
thanks

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:45:59 PM EDT

[#33]

I have some 230-grain gold dots and 230-grain ranger-t +p's.

I could send a few if ya need 'em.

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:48:29 PM EDT

[#34]

Great job

I'm now wondering how much cloth/material until the .30 carbine no longer penetrates. Also, the distance might have been a bit further out if possible ~50-100yds

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:52:50 PM EDT

[#35]

That was beautyful stuff. Reminds me of those summer target shotting days. (sniff)
I'm still wiping the tears from my eyes.

Great photos..(sniff)

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:54:54 PM EDT

[#36]

Another great entry in the series! I never tire of reading these.

Posted: 3/1/2005 12:55:35 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Newsflash!

Old hollowpoint designs suck against clothing!

I can't even remember how many times I've stated that Hydra-shok's suck compared to new designs. Thanks OP for helping prove my point.

You're welcome.

It says something about my age that I still have Black Talons and Hydroshocks in inventory. I guess it's time to shoot 'em up.

Do you have any Winchester Ranger-T's in any caliber? They would be an excellent addition to this experiment.

Federal Tacticals and some of the newer Gold-Dot's as well.

I might have some 147gr 9mm Rangers and some 180gr .40 Rangers to spare.

I have some Ranger 127gr +P+ SXT RA9TA, some Ranger RA9MMJHP 115 gr, some 147 gr Hydra-Shock P9HS2G1 and some 185gr SilvertipHP X45SHP2 .45ACP I could donate.
IM me an addy if you want a few.

Posted: 3/1/2005 1:02:38 PM EDT

[#38]

Thanks again OP
Keep up the good work.

Posted: 3/1/2005 1:03:37 PM EDT

[#39]

When is the "Box of Rotting Flesh" test? (For Zombies of course!)

You should try a leather jacket and a T-shirt in the box.

Posted: 3/1/2005 1:05:00 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

I have some Ranger 127gr +P+ SXT RA9TA, some Ranger RA9MMJHP 115 gr, some 147 gr Hydra-Shock P9HS2G1 and some 185gr SilvertipHP X45SHP2 .45ACP I could donate.
IM me an addy if you want a few.

IM sent.

And folks, due to the several kind offers for ammo to test, as soon as I get it in, I'll do another series of tests and post an update.

Thanks to all my good friends for the assistance.

Posted: 3/1/2005 1:20:25 PM EDT

[#41]

Want to try some 124gr +P GDHPs too? I have some of those I can send to you. Let me know!

Posted: 3/1/2005 1:20:45 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
When is the "Box of Rotting Flesh" test? (For Zombies of course!)

You should try a leather jacket and a T-shirt in the box.

LOL

Related:

Box of Aliens

(I've been, uh, "probe free" for 33 years now and it better stay that way)

Box of Tiger Meat (in case I ever, you know, get attacked by a Tiger)

Box of Mimes (I. Hate. Mimes)

Box of Power Tools That Have Cut Me ('cause if you don't read the directions and use a power tool, it might attack you... It is a miracle I have all my digits, and yes, I now read all manuals...)

Posted: 3/1/2005 1:37:12 PM EDT

[#43]

Naked or not, I don't want to be shot with nothin'.

Posted: 3/1/2005 1:40:13 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:e]

It's been done. Go to tactical forums.

www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000084#000000

Great link! Someone linked to that nice front rail system! Damn, now I'm gonna have to save up for an M1 Carbine, and get the rail, and decide what optic to put on it... hehehe

Like it was said, the M1 Carbine is a great rifle WITH THE RIGHT AMMO. The soon to be availability of Wolf ammo in .30 Carbine will make practice ammo cheap... maybe we'll see a resurgence of Carbines in the close future.

Posted: 3/1/2005 1:57:34 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
When is the "Box of Rotting Flesh" test? (For Zombies of course!)

You should try a leather jacket and a T-shirt in the box.

Would that box consist of those old left wing liberals in the news media?

Posted: 3/1/2005 2:09:25 PM EDT

[#46]

Did the XM-193 fragment or just tumble throught the milk jug? I cant tell from the picture whether the hole in the pine board is a fragment or a bullet

also great job

Posted: 3/1/2005 2:13:53 PM EDT

[#47]

Good test, thanks.

Posted: 3/1/2005 2:15:24 PM EDT

[#48]

As usual, another fine job from OP.
Great work and thanks for posting.

Posted: 3/1/2005 2:53:43 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:

I have some Ranger 127gr +P+ SXT RA9TA, some Ranger RA9MMJHP 115 gr, some 147 gr Hydra-Shock P9HS2G1 and some 185gr SilvertipHP X45SHP2 .45ACP I could donate.
IM me an addy if you want a few.

IM sent.

And folks, due to the several kind offers for ammo to test, as soon as I get it in, I'll do another series of tests and post an update.

Thanks to all my good friends for the assistance.

Old_Painless,

I have three AK-47 30 round mags that I can donate. Two have dents in the side making them jam up easily but I can load 29 or 30 rounds in them no problem. The third one has a messed up feed lip but will also accept 29 or 30 rounds. I can fill these with Wolf 7.62X39. I have an SA-80 mag that I have tried in vain to fix. The top of the mag is slightly too wide for the mag well and no amount of tinkering with a vice has worked. I can fill this one with some SA ammo (1983 vintage).

I also have ?5 aftermarket .45 1911 mags and ?4 aftermarket Sig P220 mags that I can fill with 230 gr. ball (I have a box of Korean).

IM or Email me if you want them for testing. Thanks again for your efforts as they are well appreciated.

Posted: 3/1/2005 3:09:55 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Did the XM-193 fragment or just tumble throught the milk jug? I cant tell from the picture whether the hole in the pine board is a fragment or a bullet

also great job

It appeared that the bullet was in a single piece as it hit the first board, traveling sideways.

Needless to say, it blew the water jug to smitherines.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Box O' Truth vs Rags Pics (Page 2 of 4)

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