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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:41:08 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Much more video here. Interesting.  http://youtu.be/G7_b6DsZe2Y
Looks like the game is 1CCW handgun vs. 2 trained riflemen. Some guys did ok, all things considered. Too bad the story broke the way it did without analysis. I can't tell if defender shots were discounted due to "body armor" on the attackers. The attackers in this video are not going a murderous killing spree, they are room clearing. Paris shooters didn't need to spend the time room clearing nor did they need the training, because the chances of someone being armed was nil. Lives would have probably been saved had the attackers had to spend time clearing rooms and neutralizing CCW. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:43:29 AM EDT
[#2]
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I've seen that one before, too. It was put on by NBC or some such network, and it was completely skewered to make the bad guy win every time. They tried it with a few different people, none of whom were particularly proficient with firearms. They put the "good guy" in the same seat every time, so the "bad guy" knew exactly where the "good guy" was, and the "bad guy" knew that he was armed and knew ahead of time what the scenario was going to be. Hardly realistic at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I watched a youtube video where they performed a test on some college campus. They gave a guy a handgun to conceal and had him sit at a table with a bunch of other people. Then they had someone burst into the room and "start shooting". The guy with the handgun didn't even get his shirt pulled up to grab his handgun before he was "dead". Their conclusion from running the test was that carrying a firearm was useless, which was exactly what they were going for. The guy who was conceal carrying was not familiar with handguns, so that made it easier to make the exercise turn out the way they wanted it to. It also showed me that even though you carry and practice often sometimes things are not going to happen the way you imagine they will. I've seen that one before, too. It was put on by NBC or some such network, and it was completely skewered to make the bad guy win every time. They tried it with a few different people, none of whom were particularly proficient with firearms. They put the "good guy" in the same seat every time, so the "bad guy" knew exactly where the "good guy" was, and the "bad guy" knew that he was armed and knew ahead of time what the scenario was going to be. Hardly realistic at all. I remember that one too ! I was a complete JOKE ! The "active shooter" knew BEFOREHAND where the CCW person was seated. In other words the active shooter, bust through door and immediately opened up on the CCW guy -- who barely knew how to hold a gun. The purpose of carrying concealed is that the perpetrator HAS NO IDEA WHEN AND WHERE the rounds are coming from. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:43:32 AM EDT
[#3]
The best you can hope for as a CCW holder is to kill or wound one of them and hope the others bail out. Either way, you are probably going to end up dead, but at least you had a CHANCE to take one or two of them with you...
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:47:56 AM EDT
[#4]
Besides the dipshits thinking that they were going to successfully counter well trained terrorists (even if sim'd), let's take a moment for consistency and call them out for politicizing this tragedy. We routinely shit on anti-gunners for dancing in the blood of victims when they instantly politicize shootings, our side shouldn't be doing the same by staging re-enactments less than 10 days after a mass murder just to try and score political points.
That sort of shit is tasteless regardless of side. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:48:20 AM EDT
[#5]
wounding or killing one terrorist and having to other run away is a significant improvement over what happened in Paris
Apparently this is where the left considers a dead unarmed victim morally superior to an armed would be victim who kills their attacker. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:53:57 AM EDT
[#6]
If my career choice led me to pick on Muslims who were known to be violent and had firebombed by office once before, I would have gotten armored entry doors and interior doors that were also bullet resistant. My cubicles would likewise be ballistic barriers and I'd have the layout such that it's harder to just burst in spraying.
I'd also pack not just pistols but shotguns or as other quip, sub-guns like a sub-2000 which gives much more stability vs. a pistol in such ranges... But the bottom line is that rifles are better than pistols and surprise/aggression almost always has an advantage over shock. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:02:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It seems to me that even though defender was defeated the fact that he got at least one and caused the attack to play out longer is still a huge win. The police are now facing only one attacker who now has less ammo available. If the police were afforded a couple more minutes response time then it is possible the other gunman would have been subdued or killed. It almost certainly would have saved the lives of the cops outside. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:15:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If my career choice led me to pick on Muslims who were known to be violent and had firebombed by office once before, I would have gotten armored entry doors and interior doors that were also bullet resistant. My cubicles would likewise be ballistic barriers and I'd have the layout such that it's harder to just burst in spraying. I'd also pack not just pistols but shotguns or as other quip, sub-guns like a sub-2000 which gives much more stability vs. a pistol in such ranges... But the bottom line is that rifles are better than pistols and surprise/aggression almost always has an advantage over shock. You are thinking like an American, Nuts cut off compassionate euro pussies are incapable of such thought! |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:18:25 PM EDT
[#9]
Any normal CCWer in that situation would've ran just like an unarmed person would do. There is no point in being a martyr.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:19:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd bet they killed her anyway! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wasn't it Texas where a CCW holder tried to take on a shooter outside a courthouse? He was killed..  ..but he did try to defend everyone that day...Anyway, I think the scenario is a little off. Did the BGs in Paris sneak into the building or come in blazing? I thought they were shooting it up outside the building. That would give someone with a gun an opportunity to get ready. If they did sneak in, carry guy is at a disadvantage to start. Two trained rifleman attacking vs reactive defense. Most ranges don't help, not allowing quick draw point shooting and/or movement. Best hopes would be lay down some fire to allow a get away. If lucky you might be able to take a BG out and recover his rifle.... I'd bet they killed her anyway! |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:21:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Besides the dipshits thinking that they were going to successfully counter well trained terrorists (even if sim'd), let's take a moment for consistency and call them out for politicizing this tragedy. We routinely shit on anti-gunners for dancing in the blood of victims when they instantly politicize shootings, our side shouldn't be doing the same by staging re-enactments less than 10 days after a mass murder just to try and score political points. That sort of shit is tasteless regardless of side. From listening to their interview it sounds like they were approaching it from more of a technical perspective, as a real world test of online speculation. They should have known that 1) it would be immediately politicized 2) the defender would fail almost every time. At best, you kill one, defender gets killed, victims maybe get some extra time. And the media still treats it as total failure. They were honest with their results, I'll give them that. They should have waited though. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:28:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd bet they killed her anyway! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wasn't it Texas where a CCW holder tried to take on a shooter outside a courthouse? He was killed.. ..but he did try to defend everyone that day...
Anyway, I think the scenario is a little off. Did the BGs in Paris sneak into the building or come in blazing? I thought they were shooting it up outside the building. That would give someone with a gun an opportunity to get ready. If they did sneak in, carry guy is at a disadvantage to start. Two trained rifleman attacking vs reactive defense. Most ranges don't help, not allowing quick draw point shooting and/or movement. Best hopes would be lay down some fire to allow a get away. If lucky you might be able to take a BG out and recover his rifle.... I'd bet they killed her anyway! They didn't kill her. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:29:29 PM EDT
[#13]
There are an infinite number of variables and the situation can never be replicated. I will still take my chances with my sidearm.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:34:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Civilians need machineguns to have a chance.
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:36:01 PM EDT
[#15]
The people in that office were pretty much screwed. The biggest opportunity a ccw would of had to kill them would of been outside the office or try to ambush them when they got in their car. However, if video guy in the window had a rifle he could of done serious damage if he knew how to shoot.
The biggest thing I take away from this and other events like the Mall massacre in Africa is that even though Shields and similar guns are more comfortable youre not going to be able to reload them quick enough. |
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:47:34 PM EDT
[#16]
I commented on this when the original thread(s) was going on. Its not that CCW is bad and isn't a case for NOT carrying, but sometimes you have to accept multiple guys with rifles and a plan are going to shit stomp you. Your training is probably better focused on evasion rather then shooting a gun in that kinda scenario.
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