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Posted: 1/26/2006 10:43:06 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 1/26/2006 10:45:37 AM EDT
[#2]
 Like that was even possible 
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Posted: 1/26/2006 10:48:46 AM EDT
[#3]
slight modification 
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Posted: 1/26/2006 10:52:25 AM EDT
[#4]
I'll have to see it to believe it.  Nascar has a firm grip on the series, teams, and sponsors. They control the whole show like it or not, and NO ONE will challenge them. Formula 1 is in disaray. The US Grand Prix proves it. Another example F1 couldn't police traction control....so they made it legal. NASCAR thought it might be an issue(which it was) and Helton simply said "if your caught with TC your NEVER racing in NASCAR again, your owner won't be racing in NASCAR again, your crew chief won't be racing in NASCAR again". Polar opposites....... |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 11:07:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Wooo a ban on traction control!
 I'm glad I got in on the pre-ban trac ctrl for my car! 
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Posted: 1/26/2006 11:22:09 AM EDT
[#6]
toyota wont dominate because NASCAR changes the rules mid season to penalize who ever is dominating that season. Toyota will not be allowed to harness its resources to develop technology to win. Auto racing has traditionally been the proving grounds for new technology and we have many many safety advances thanks to F1 competition. (anti lock brakes, air bags, traction control) but not NASCAR, pushrod V8s, rear drum brakes, and 7.5 inch wheels....what kind of technology is going to trickle down to production models from that? its masturbation and a waste of time. NASCAR is pro wrestling on wheels. a completely merritless excerize designed to enrich its participants and entertain the mindless hordes
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Posted: 1/26/2006 11:27:29 AM EDT
[#7]
Don't watch....it's simple. know what you speak of before posting BTW, have you ever heard of aerodynamics? |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 11:28:43 AM EDT
[#8]
I meant as far as technology but you are right F1 will likely never get a handle on the corruption that saturates that circuit. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 11:57:21 AM EDT
[#9]
I'm NA$CAR fan going back to the 60's. I don't really have a problem with the Toyota deal but am rapidly losing interest in the IROC style of "balancing the playing field".
I understand the business side of wanting every sponsor to have a chance of seeing their car in victory lane. In the true scope of things, it won't happen if you are not one of the big 5 teams(Evernham, Gibbs, Hendrick, Penske or Roush). Instead of 43 cars having a chance to win, the reality is only 25 cars have that opportunity. The attempt at trying to make that business model succeed is what fuels my displeasure. You have cars that require a brand name written on them in order to allow them to be distinguished from a competing brand. The engines are tested and when one team finds an edge that creates a few more horsepower, NA$CAR tells all the other teams the secret. Edge Gone!! It's an orchestrated show really, not a race. The ONLY difference between NA$CAR and WWF is that NA$CAR hasn't figured out how to pick the winner ahead of time. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 12:01:49 PM EDT
[#10]
Nascar has Car templates for aero work F1 teams Like Ferrari have the own full size wind tunnel that they are using 365days of the year to tweak ther cars, A F1 car can drive on a ceiling up side down aslong as they maintane 120 mph. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 12:03:05 PM EDT
[#11]
$500 million a year in one sector of racing?  Are you sure about that?
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Posted: 1/26/2006 12:05:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Thats right. Ferrari spends $350 million a year only because they dont have to play catch up like Toyota. Michael Schumacher makes $80 mil a year he is the second highest paid athlete in the world |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 12:06:27 PM EDT
[#13]
Well...there goes the neighborhood!
It will be a good thing to let the new blood into the sport, it will probably help with new technologies being shared and over-all performance enhanced. What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday, will be a good thing to the sport. And yes...it is still the #1 spectactor sport in America.
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Posted: 1/26/2006 12:08:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Most of the top teams are running 2 tunnels full-time now. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 12:21:46 PM EDT
[#15]
This is NOT a good thing it makes for awful racing... like F1 this year awful. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 12:31:22 PM EDT
[#16]
They took away downforce from F1 cars last year by raising the front wing. Open wheel cars have been running with that much, or more, downforce for the last 30 years and there has been plenty of good racing. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 12:33:32 PM EDT
[#17]
They need to take away more... a lot more. Really the races have not been good for quite awhile, little or NO passing. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 12:49:33 PM EDT
[#18]
I agree, it was horrible last year. But, that's the turbulance caused by the wings generating the majority of downforce. Removing downforce from the front of the car was exactly the wrong thing to do. Going back to underbody/venturi aero like ChampCar, and replacing the carbon brakes with steel, to open up the braking zones, would go a long way to solving F1's passing problems. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 12:56:25 PM EDT
[#19]
BTW, Ford Taurus is out this year. Ford Fusion is in.
Michael Waltrip is in Toyota truck series, so the jump from DEI to Toyota was inevitable. But I still think he sucks as a driver. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 1:50:59 PM EDT
[#20]
Not so fast.....NASCAR does use templates, but all the teams use wind tunnels and those Cup cars that are used at tracks like Daytona/Talladega are way more "slippery" than any open wheel car ever produced. The aero technology I spoke of was what was being transfered to production autos. What do you think is more important to Detroit........less wind resistance or downforce?
One of the reason multi-team owners like Roush have an advantage over a single team owner is aero numbers transfer from car to car. You can send one car to the windtunnel and get info for 5 race teams. Testing set-ups doesn't always transfer from driver to driver. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 1:55:06 PM EDT
[#21]
I would wager there is probably more aero difference in the NASCAR templates between the “brands/models” than between any of the F1 teams. Talk cookie cutter then talk F1… what 20 cars between a handful of teams. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 2:08:12 PM EDT
[#22]
I would almost guarantee that you are right. The only difference between the cars at Daytona/Talladega, when the restricer plates are used, is aero. All of the engines are within 10 hp for the entire field, and the top teams that spend hours in the windtunnel tweaking the area outside of the templates are going to be the fastest. The F1 speeds never reach fast enough (one straightaway that speeds hit 200 mph on the entire curcuit?) for anything other than down force to matter and physics eventually take over and air will only push so hard on so many square inches of surface area. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 2:25:08 PM EDT
[#23]
I saw the Indy cars at MIS last year, and the first year they ran there. Yes, empty stands, really. They close off large portions of the stands when they run there. If somebody wants to bitch about NASCAR, and they tell me rally or some of the sport car series are better, I can respect that. But nobody can tell me indy car, or champ are better. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 2:32:43 PM EDT
[#24]
Each Teams car's in F1 are quite abit differnt in terms of Aero
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Posted: 1/26/2006 2:35:04 PM EDT
[#25]
I will guarantee you both are completely wrong. The Nascar common template makes different manufacturers cars almost indistinguishable. It also restricts the teams from making all but the slightest tweaks. Contrast that with F1 who are able to add any aerodynamic device they want to any non-movable (i.e. not the suspension) part of the car. An average F1 team will spend more time and money making more changes to the front wing than the entire Nascar field spends on the entire car. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 2:45:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Cars.
Eh. 
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Posted: 1/26/2006 2:47:52 PM EDT
[#27]
I think we are talking about two different things. I am talking the numbers that teams use in windtunnel testing. I can't remember the term. But there is a drag term used that is expressed with a number. You take and put the fastest F1 car in the tunnel and adjust to max downforce read that number. Take the slowest F1 car adjust to max downforce, read that number. The difference the 2 F1 cars, will be less than the pole winner of the Daytona 500 vs the number of the 43rd starting car. Cup cars don't have that kind of adjustment. They have to massage the metal skin. F1 guys turn a screw. Certainly the adjustments that F1 cars have vary greatly, but the maximum settings are going to very close between manufactures because the total surface area is virtually identical. No matter how much money you throw at it physics eventually takes over Add to that that those teams are never going to race in full downforce trim because they would be too slow. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 3:00:04 PM EDT
[#28]
coefficient of drag I'll dispute that one too. In F1 you have teams with a half billion dollar budget and teams with a 50 million dollar budget. They all have to develop their own engines. The HP difference in field is ~125HP. The lower budget teams have to make up the difference in aero. Your average NASACR car has only ~1200lbs of downforce to work with at speed. An F1 car can make that much change by taking one or two elements out of the rear wing. The wide range in budget and the total amount of downforce available to adjust is just not there in NASCAR. They do race in full downforce trim at Monoco. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 3:02:22 PM EDT
[#29]
It won't be anytime until Honda and Nissan join the fray.
Good. GM, Ford and Chrysler get their asses handed to them daily at the dealership, might as well happen on the racetrack, too. Ford and GM need to learn you can't polish turds. SG |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 3:35:08 PM EDT
[#30]
They spend $500k on a front wing? On every car? Thats kind of pricey...I guess the whole F-1 car cost about 20-30 million $$$? Did not know that |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 3:40:36 PM EDT
[#31]
as a long time nascar fan it sucks on the day that ford was closing 14 plants and 35000 more workers being let go read the rules jap boys the rules state an iron block v-8 engine sold to the public they never made an iron block v-8 all nascar has turned into is money i hope the france family chokes on the jap cash just my humble thought
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Posted: 1/26/2006 6:37:25 PM EDT
[#32]
Wanna see a real race? Right around 6AM,watch as the Toyota employees race on Cherry Blossom Way,trying to beat the lights,for the honor of having yet another day of perfect attendance.
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Posted: 1/26/2006 6:46:32 PM EDT
[#33]
Why those crafty Japs!  Too bad NASCAR will still suck. The fan reaction ought to be interesting though. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 7:18:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Toyota had their eyes on Nextel cup ever since they started running trucks in the Craftsman Truck Series in 2004. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 7:52:08 PM EDT
[#35]
krpind,
i know what im talking about, or at least i have a decent idea. ive got family that makes their living in NASCAR, very wealthy, houseboats, scarabs, an airplane, big money. and they talk about NASCAR the way some idiots defend pro wrestling. its rediculous. they need to pull all their rediculous rules that stop innovation. if the new ford body is trashing everyone else....let them keep dominating until the other companies build a better product. dont change the rules mid-season to handcap the dominate play. how do we benefit from NASCRAP? tell me what chevys current line of front drive 6cyl crap has in common with a "stock" car other than a vaguely similar body shape. nascar is gay. i say hold them to the body shape and let them run anything under the hood that they want. give them some displacement rules and have at it. big V8's down to quadrouple turbo 4's whatever is fast. as it stands now they cant even run fuel injection. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 8:07:38 PM EDT
[#36]
it might make NASCAR interesting
 ETA: competition is good |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 8:35:27 PM EDT
[#37]
DvlDog, With all due respect, NASCAR hasn't used rear drum brakes, or 7.5 in wheels in the modern era for sure!(1972 to present) The aero technology that Nascar teams and factories get are relayed directly to engineers to help acheive the fuel mileage that is mandated by the .gov I have a friend who makes a portion of his living from NASCAR drivers and Executives, he is nothing like you describe your friends are. If you don't enjoy it why complain if someone else does? |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 8:43:12 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 1/26/2006 8:47:20 PM EDT
[#39]
The big 3 will do just like their biggest fan base does, they will whine instead of innovate. They will fall far behind the curve and blame the consumers who are intelligent enough to spend money on quality vehicles. Sad to say and I hope I am wrong. It just seems GM Ford and Chevy re just reflections of ther hardcore supporters. If they would wake up and see the competition for what it is they can be the best manufacturers in the world. Sadly it seems many of their fan base still want flimsly poorly engineered garbage that is absolutely undrivable after 5-7 yrs. As long as folks keep buying that crap, it will encourag them to build it. I would think that the loss of sales would make them more competetive. Unfortunatly price is the only thing they think of when it comes to comptetion, not quality. I hope domestics make a comeback but I refuse to be a fool and continue to buy their crap. They are screwing us and many enjoy it. Like many people with a measurable degree of even rudimentary intelligence, I prefer to spend my money on quality(especially in the tens of thousands), not matter who makes it. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 9:59:32 PM EDT
[#40]
it doesnt hurt me if someone else likes it, i just think all that talent and all that money could be used to make some amazing stuff and its not. its wasted on making dinosaur technology go fast. if NASCAR could run anything since its inception we might all be driving 400hp cars that get 50mpg by now. but since theres no competitive forces to push innovation we havent seen anything new or exciting from detroit in decades. what little innovation we have seen from detroit has been technology aquired from their purchase of european marques. meanwhile the japanese who run F1, touring car, and WRC have come up with reliable light weight engines with some of the highest specific outputs of any production engines ever. dont get me wrong, im no ricer. ive got a driveway full of detroit iron.
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Posted: 1/26/2006 10:21:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Is there an American equivalent to the Touring Car Championships of Europe? (Where they race tweaked production cars around twisty circuits and bash into each other a lot)
Rain won't stop them either. Let's see a NASCAR turn on its headlights and windshield wiper.  And what the devil is the deal with truck racing in America? It looks like NASCAR chassis with a pick-up truck fiberglass body. -This- is truck racing.  NTM |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 10:25:14 PM EDT
[#42]
pretty popular in Australia and South America I think. I'd watch it 
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Posted: 1/26/2006 10:28:35 PM EDT
[#43]
And Europe. The US makes such great trucks, it's a shame not to see Peterbilts chasing Freightliners or Macks around.
Actually, how about caravan racing? Just think of all the aerodynamic achievements in the world of caravaning that could result from this sport. (There is a recognised season for this)   NTM |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 10:51:45 PM EDT
[#44]
Well Nascar cars SHOULD have a lower coefficient of drag than F1 cars, considering they have fenders. Those 4 big fat tires sticking out in the air cause a bunch of drag. Which is aside from the fact that downforce is more important than low drag when you have 900 HP, and you have to make tight turns in a car that weighs 600kg. Compare that to a Cup car that weighs 3400 lbs. There just is no comparison. But the point stands that Nascar cars are all built off templates, and the potential design choices are drastically limited. Just look at all the different designs of bargeboards on F1 cars, they are all drastically different. And bargeboards are about one of the smallest aerodynamic details on a car. Then you have things like ferrari's aerodynamic chimneystacks, instead of just surface cooling vents. There are more differences in each single peice of bodywork than there are in a whole nascar car. Just go look at some of the features here: http://www.formula1.com/insight/technical_analysis/team/2006/7/230.html And these peice of bodywork change on a weekly basis. There is probably more aerodynamic variation in a single team's cars at two different races than between any two nascar cars |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 10:54:48 PM EDT
[#45]
Oh, our equivalent of a touring car championship would probably be the Speed World challenge. http://www.world-challenge.com/ Then there is the ALMS for sporst car/ GT racing. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 11:47:11 PM EDT
[#46]
Um...You know the Toyotas use a Chevy SB2 engine right? 
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:33:37 AM EDT
[#47]
Um...You know the Toyotas use a Chevy SB2 engine right?
Make that an SB-2 block, not complete engine! As for the coefficient of drag discussion, back in the 70's Road and Track had a comparison between the late Al Holbert's Porsche Can-Am car and the late Tim Richmonds Folgers/Hendrick Monte Carlo. The Monte went 224 MPH vs 208 for the Porsche, mainly due to the Porsche body's downforce drag(coefficient of friction). A line from the article stuck with me. The Monte Carlo is shaped like a brick, but a very efficient brick! |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 4:55:50 AM EDT
[#48]
Fair enough. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:04:33 AM EDT
[#49]
How did I miss this last night? Oh well. Nope NOT coefficient of drag It is a single word like......bar. The european equivilant of psi. When NASCAR engineers state wind tunnel number the number isn't lbs, or psi, it is like 140 "bar" Whatever the word is I can't remember. So F1 guys show up at The Grnd Prix of Monoco, arguably their biggest race, and are set on full downforce from the weeks of tunnel testing and NEVER change the wing settings.........you want me to believe that? |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:20:46 AM EDT
[#50]
Without Toyota,the Bodine's wouldn't have a job.
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