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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:17:09 PM EDT
[#1]
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Regardless of which it is, its now reality. In certain environments, it is not normal for a young boy to be carrying a rifle in public. Period. It does not matter why, or how it got to be this way, it simply is. The reaction to such an act is dictated by that truth, not by the way you wish it was, or how it used to be. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You gotta ask yourself now if that's cause or effect? Regardless of which it is, its now reality. In certain environments, it is not normal for a young boy to be carrying a rifle in public. Period. It does not matter why, or how it got to be this way, it simply is. The reaction to such an act is dictated by that truth, not by the way you wish it was, or how it used to be. Ever shoot a kid (or adult for that matter) for just carrying a rifle in a field? Is that acceptable in this new reality? Do you know if he pointed it at the cop? Do you feel comfortable saying it was ok to kill the kid (young man) given the facts that have been presented so far? What I was leading to with the cause/effect thing is can we place some blame on the kids for escalating violence in schools and other places, or is violence also coming from other areas? The media? Movies and TV? Could it be possible it's also coming from the police, who seem to be pretty violent in much of CA? |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:18:27 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:19:55 PM EDT
[#3]
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what an ignorant post. I'm so thankful knowing there are pure american badasses like yourself that if faced with a similar situation would just do a front flip roll and kick the gun out of the persons hands, but I guess you wouldn't even have to do that because you would just know immediately it was a toy and not a real AK  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He is a firearms expert. what an ignorant post. I'm so thankful knowing there are pure american badasses like yourself that if faced with a similar situation would just do a front flip roll and kick the gun out of the persons hands, but I guess you wouldn't even have to do that because you would just know immediately it was a toy and not a real AK There's some merit to his post. I've been in a similar situation, except the kid was holding a toy pistol and was around 8-10 probably. The threat wasn't tipping the scales for me to shoot. That being said, this was a 13yr old who looked a lot older, holding a rifle. It's too hard to pass judgment without knowing if he pointed the rifle at the cop or not. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:21:06 PM EDT
[#4]
fuck him.
he killed a kid with a toy. hope he eats his gun. I don't care if you "disagree". |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:21:31 PM EDT
[#5]
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There's some merit to his post. I've been in a similar situation, except the kid was holding a toy pistol and was around 8-10 probably. The threat wasn't tipping the scales for me to shoot. That being said, this was a 13yr old who looked a lot older, holding a rifle. It's too hard to pass judgment without knowing if he pointed the rifle at the cop or not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He is a firearms expert. what an ignorant post. I'm so thankful knowing there are pure american badasses like yourself that if faced with a similar situation would just do a front flip roll and kick the gun out of the persons hands, but I guess you wouldn't even have to do that because you would just know immediately it was a toy and not a real AK There's some merit to his post. I've been in a similar situation, except the kid was holding a toy pistol and was around 8-10 probably. The threat wasn't tipping the scales for me to shoot. That being said, this was a 13yr old who looked a lot older, holding a rifle. It's too hard to pass judgment without knowing if he pointed the rifle at the cop or not. none of us were there, but bottom line is this, if the reported stories is what really happened then I would submit that even a "threat expert" would have shot and probably quicker than 7 seconds |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:22:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryThat is the tell all. Some of these "toy" rifles look like the real thing. It's also difficult to ascertain a person's age and intentions, just by looking. A gun should be considered a lethal threat until it's dropped, or the person carrying it is stopped. My 2 cents. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:23:06 PM EDT
[#7]
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none of us were there, but bottom line is this, if the reported stories is what really happened then I would submit that even a "threat expert" would have shot and probably quicker than 7 seconds Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He is a firearms expert. what an ignorant post. I'm so thankful knowing there are pure american badasses like yourself that if faced with a similar situation would just do a front flip roll and kick the gun out of the persons hands, but I guess you wouldn't even have to do that because you would just know immediately it was a toy and not a real AK There's some merit to his post. I've been in a similar situation, except the kid was holding a toy pistol and was around 8-10 probably. The threat wasn't tipping the scales for me to shoot. That being said, this was a 13yr old who looked a lot older, holding a rifle. It's too hard to pass judgment without knowing if he pointed the rifle at the cop or not. none of us were there, but bottom line is this, if the reported stories is what really happened then I would submit that even a "threat expert" would have shot and probably quicker than 7 seconds You really think so? I doubt it, but that's just me. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:25:30 PM EDT
[#8]
check out my above post with link, that damn thing looks identical to my Romanian AK sitting in the safe right down to the stainless charging handle. Point that at me, dont drop it (again according to reports) and I'm firing
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:26:59 PM EDT
[#9]
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check out my above post with link, that damn thing looks identical to my Romanian AK sitting in the safe right down to the stainless charging handle. Point that at me, dont drop it (again according to reports) and I'm firing No reports of pointing it anywhere, though, as far as I've seen. Actually it's curious that the statements have not cleared that up. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:28:26 PM EDT
[#10]
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That is the tell all. Some of these "toy" rifles look like the real thing. It's also difficult to ascertain a person's age and intentions, just by looking. A gun should be considered a lethal threat until it's dropped, or the person carrying it is stopped. My 2 cents. Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is the tell all. Some of these "toy" rifles look like the real thing. It's also difficult to ascertain a person's age and intentions, just by looking. A gun should be considered a lethal threat until it's dropped, or the person carrying it is stopped. My 2 cents. Exactly. And cops know that. So a cop should know it's just as likely that a kid roaming around in a field has an Airsoft gun, as it is he has an actual AK. This is a really slippery slope. Exercising a Constitutional right shouldn't be a 'guilty until proven innocent' situation. Please understand I'm not saying "good shoot" or "bad shoot", that's not up to me.. I just think this is a fucked up situation, and questions need to be asked to try and find out how to prevent it in the future. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:29:01 PM EDT
[#11]
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none of us were there, but bottom line is this, if the reported stories is what really happened then I would submit that even a "threat expert" would have shot and probably quicker than 7 seconds Based upon the Dallas shooting of a reported mentally challenged man, an officer's report of what happened has ZERO credibility. Maybe it is factual...maybe not. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:29:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Toy guns are not a good toy.
They have the same ability as a real gun to make someone fear for their life. It doesn't seem too complicated. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:29:38 PM EDT
[#13]
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No reports of pointing it anywhere, though, as far as I've seen. Actually it's curious that the statements have not cleared that up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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check out my above post with link, that damn thing looks identical to my Romanian AK sitting in the safe right down to the stainless charging handle. Point that at me, dont drop it (again according to reports) and I'm firing No reports of pointing it anywhere, though, as far as I've seen. Actually it's curious that the statements have not cleared that up. If you wait until the gun is pointed directly at you, you are behind the curve. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:30:01 PM EDT
[#14]
The linked article states that the police story is that the kid was facing away, was challenged by the police and turned towards them with the gun.
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:30:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Regardless of which it is, its now reality. In certain environments, it is not normal for a young boy to be carrying a rifle in public. Period. It does not matter why, or how it got to be this way, it simply is. The reaction to such an act is dictated by that truth, not by the way you wish it was, or how it used to be. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You gotta ask yourself now if that's cause or effect? Regardless of which it is, its now reality. In certain environments, it is not normal for a young boy to be carrying a rifle in public. Period. It does not matter why, or how it got to be this way, it simply is. The reaction to such an act is dictated by that truth, not by the way you wish it was, or how it used to be. +1 EXACTLY All this back in the day talk is just that back in the day. You have to deal with the times as they are now. Depending on where you're located there are kids doing shoot'em ups and gang banging. I used to play with all kinda real looking toy guns too but I wouldn't let my son today walk down the street with one. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:31:35 PM EDT
[#16]
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Based upon the Dallas shooting of a reported mentally challenged man, an officer's report of what happened has ZERO credibility. Maybe it is factual...maybe not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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none of us were there, but bottom line is this, if the reported stories is what really happened then I would submit that even a "threat expert" would have shot and probably quicker than 7 seconds Based upon the Dallas shooting of a reported mentally challenged man, an officer's report of what happened has ZERO credibility. Maybe it is factual...maybe not. True |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:32:01 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: what an ignorant post. I'm so thankful knowing there are pure american badasses like yourself that if faced with a similar situation would just do a front flip roll and kick the gun out of the persons hands, but I guess you wouldn't even have to do that because you would just know immediately it was a toy and not a real AK Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: He is a firearms expert. what an ignorant post. I'm so thankful knowing there are pure american badasses like yourself that if faced with a similar situation would just do a front flip roll and kick the gun out of the persons hands, but I guess you wouldn't even have to do that because you would just know immediately it was a toy and not a real AK Id'ing a threat is not just about the threat, its about the environment. So yeah, kid in a street with dead bodies with hostile acts, or reports of shots fired with dead/shot people- yeah=dead kid. None of that, no hostile actions, environment that does not support pre-drawn conclusions but you see a kid with a gun=DRT no, just no. Engage the brain before the trigger ETA this is not about just IDing a AK. Where does this entire scene take place, in front of a neighborhood. A puzzle is not one piece |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:32:21 PM EDT
[#18]
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If you wait until the gun is pointed directly at you, you are behind the curve. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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check out my above post with link, that damn thing looks identical to my Romanian AK sitting in the safe right down to the stainless charging handle. Point that at me, dont drop it (again according to reports) and I'm firing No reports of pointing it anywhere, though, as far as I've seen. Actually it's curious that the statements have not cleared that up. If you wait until the gun is pointed directly at you, you are behind the curve. Bullshit. This wasn't Doc Holiday. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:32:46 PM EDT
[#19]
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Exactly. And cops know that. So a cop should know it's just as likely that a kid roaming around in a field has an Airsoft gun, as it is he has an actual AK. This is a really slippery slope. Exercising a Constitutional right shouldn't be a 'guilty until proven innocent' situation. Please understand I'm not saying "good shoot" or "bad shoot", that's not up to me.. I just think this is a fucked up situation, and questions need to be asked to try and find out how to prevent it in the future. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That is the tell all. Some of these "toy" rifles look like the real thing. It's also difficult to ascertain a person's age and intentions, just by looking. A gun should be considered a lethal threat until it's dropped, or the person carrying it is stopped. My 2 cents. Exactly. And cops know that. So a cop should know it's just as likely that a kid roaming around in a field has an Airsoft gun, as it is he has an actual AK. This is a really slippery slope. Exercising a Constitutional right shouldn't be a 'guilty until proven innocent' situation. Please understand I'm not saying "good shoot" or "bad shoot", that's not up to me.. I just think this is a fucked up situation, and questions need to be asked to try and find out how to prevent it in the future. I appreciate your perspective on it. That's why I love this place. 
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:33:48 PM EDT
[#20]
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Exactly. And cops know that. So a cop should know it's just as likely that a kid roaming around in a field has an Airsoft gun, as it is he has an actual AK. This is a really slippery slope. Exercising a Constitutional right shouldn't be a 'guilty until proven innocent' situation. Please understand I'm not saying "good shoot" or "bad shoot", that's not up to me.. I just think this is a fucked up situation, and questions need to be asked to try and find out how to prevent it in the future. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That is the tell all. Some of these "toy" rifles look like the real thing. It's also difficult to ascertain a person's age and intentions, just by looking. A gun should be considered a lethal threat until it's dropped, or the person carrying it is stopped. My 2 cents. Exactly. And cops know that. So a cop should know it's just as likely that a kid roaming around in a field has an Airsoft gun, as it is he has an actual AK. This is a really slippery slope. Exercising a Constitutional right shouldn't be a 'guilty until proven innocent' situation. Please understand I'm not saying "good shoot" or "bad shoot", that's not up to me.. I just think this is a fucked up situation, and questions need to be asked to try and find out how to prevent it in the future. In CA, open carry of any firearm is illegal (dumb law, but there you go). So these 2 deputies attempt a stop on someone violating that law, give commands to drop the rifle (because it looks very close to the real thing unless you're basically holding it), he doesn't drop it for 7 seconds, and he gets lit up. On the face of it, given how realistic the rifle looks, and that it takes maybe 2 seconds to process and comply with a "drop it!" command, and 7 seconds is plenty of time to repeat it at least one or two more times and still gain compliance...it doesn't sound like this is a bad shoot. Tragic, yes. Bad shoot? Probably not. As an aside, the "witness" in the article who said the Deputy kept shooting after the kid was down looks like exactly the kind of credible information source I'd rely on in an investigation....if I were a moron. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:33:57 PM EDT
[#21]
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The kid not only was holding what he thought was an AK. The kid allegedly refused to drop it when ordered to do so. I give him the benefit of the doubt in this case. +1 From the picture in the other thread it looked realistic. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:35:17 PM EDT
[#22]
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I didn't read much more of the last thread after it became a circle jerk, but was it ever said that the kid pointed the gun at the cops? 
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:35:43 PM EDT
[#23]
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Bullshit. This wasn't Doc Holiday. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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check out my above post with link, that damn thing looks identical to my Romanian AK sitting in the safe right down to the stainless charging handle. Point that at me, dont drop it (again according to reports) and I'm firing No reports of pointing it anywhere, though, as far as I've seen. Actually it's curious that the statements have not cleared that up. If you wait until the gun is pointed directly at you, you are behind the curve. Bullshit. This wasn't Doc Holiday. No, it wasn't, and Trayvon Martin was a scrawny kid with a bag of skittles, yet this same place all but gave Zimmerman the keys to the city for what he did. The point is, there was no way of knowing who the kid was, and what he was capable of. I, for one, would not suggest gambling on the possibility it might be a kid with a toy gun when there is a very real chance its not. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:35:50 PM EDT
[#24]
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Uhh? Did you mean to respond to a different post?  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I didn't read much more of the last thread after it became a circle jerk, but was it ever said that the kid pointed the gun at the cops? There's a photo at the scene. It looked real enough to call Darwin and ask his opinion. Uhh? Did you mean to respond to a different post? Nope. This one. Did you see the pics? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2474903/Boy-13-carrying-toy-gun-shot-dead-cops-AFTER-hit-ground.html |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:35:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Some of us can talk about what we did as kids and what we got away with/what didnt raise any concerns. I graduated HS in 1985 in Jacksonville Florida. Pretty big town with pretty big schools. You could still carry a pocket knife to school and during hunting season you would see the occasional truck with a long gun in a rack in the window in the student parking lot. We didnt have a cop assigned to the school and we had the cops come to our school only a couple times in the 3 years I was there. We had a Dean of Boys and a Dean of Girls who handled discipline, including "swatting" that ass or suspending students when we fought, got out of line with the faculty or got caught skipping out of class.
I dont recall violence in schools then at the level we have seen from the mid 90's to now. There's alot more overage of youth violence now. As far as "toy guns" there was the thread with the Akron officer's body cam footage of a guy pulling an "toy gun" and getting shot. Not alot of controversy in that thread over the shooting, so it can happen. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:36:04 PM EDT
[#26]
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fuck him. he killed a kid with a toy. hope he eats his gun. I don't care if you "disagree". Your post makes me laugh because of its absurdity...then sad because I know you are serious. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:36:22 PM EDT
[#27]
I handed a gunsmith friend of mine a reasonably high end airsoft AR once. He hefted it and looked for a few seconds before asking me what caliber it was. I laughingly told him "6mm."
That being said, I have yet to see a believable airsoft AK that would pass in person visual muster. The difference between thirty years ago and today is that thirty years ago, LEOs weren't in mortal terror of armed civilians. I see this frequently reflected in my local guys. The culture has changed, and the culture of law enforcement seems to be trending to instinctive distrust of non-LEO bearing arms. In Sonoma California, I can see where the idea of a 13 year old gang banger bearing arms isn't out of the question. I can see where a LEO there seeing a 13 year old holding an AK wouldn't necessarily process "kid with toy" before his hindbrain told him "gangbanger with gun!" Situation sucks and it's hard to let the shoot slide, but without additional information, I can't categorically place blame on the individual rather than the fucked up culture that has created the incident. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:36:59 PM EDT
[#28]
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I didn't read much more of the last thread after it became a circle jerk, but was it ever said that the kid pointed the gun at the cops? http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/faux-crow-pie.jpg OK? |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:37:27 PM EDT
[#29]
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Nope. This one. Did you see the pics? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2474903/Boy-13-carrying-toy-gun-shot-dead-cops-AFTER-hit-ground.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I didn't read much more of the last thread after it became a circle jerk, but was it ever said that the kid pointed the gun at the cops? There's a photo at the scene. It looked real enough to call Darwin and ask his opinion. Uhh? Did you mean to respond to a different post? Nope. This one. Did you see the pics? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2474903/Boy-13-carrying-toy-gun-shot-dead-cops-AFTER-hit-ground.html My question wasn't if it looked real or not... |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:38:25 PM EDT
[#30]
This comes from a heightened sense of threats. A kid rolled down the back window while I was checking the ID cards of the driver and passenger in the front seat. I looked down in time to smell smoke and what looked like the barrel of a pistol. I stopped when I heard crying. The muzzle of my GAU cleared the back door and rammed into the interior of the vehicle. To this day I am so glad that I hesitated. It made me sick at the time, and I still think of it every day. Oh did I mention it was just a cap-gun? Yeah I should have used more situational awareness, I was working close to 18 hours a day in Europe at a U.S. Air Base. We had an active terrorist threat with bombs going off in military installations daily. I can certainly empathise with this deputy. I know the fear he felt, the only difference was he was faster than me. making a decision.
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:38:28 PM EDT
[#31]
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A kid walking around in a neighborhood next to a field, no dead bodies, no dead animals, people talking to the kid, but still no dead people its a clue. Id'ing a threat is not just about the threat, its about the environment. So yeah, kid in a street with dead bodies with hostile acts, or reports of shots fired with dead/shot people- yeah=dead kid. None of that, no hostile actions, environment that does not support pre-drawn conclusions but you see a kid with a gun=DRT no, just no. Engage the brain before the trigger Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He is a firearms expert. what an ignorant post. I'm so thankful knowing there are pure american badasses like yourself that if faced with a similar situation would just do a front flip roll and kick the gun out of the persons hands, but I guess you wouldn't even have to do that because you would just know immediately it was a toy and not a real AK Id'ing a threat is not just about the threat, its about the environment. So yeah, kid in a street with dead bodies with hostile acts, or reports of shots fired with dead/shot people- yeah=dead kid. None of that, no hostile actions, environment that does not support pre-drawn conclusions but you see a kid with a gun=DRT no, just no. Engage the brain before the trigger so you're on a suspicious person call, you encounter a hoodie wearing person holding an AK, doesnt respond to commands to drop it. Then according to reports starts to raise it at you. And you're telling me that before I do anything I should "check the environment" like what? hold my finger in the air for wind direction? Look around to see if there is a dead body he already killed? How much time do you think you have in a situation like that? |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:38:51 PM EDT
[#32]
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If you wait until the gun is pointed directly at you, you are behind the curve. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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check out my above post with link, that damn thing looks identical to my Romanian AK sitting in the safe right down to the stainless charging handle. Point that at me, dont drop it (again according to reports) and I'm firing No reports of pointing it anywhere, though, as far as I've seen. Actually it's curious that the statements have not cleared that up. If you wait until the gun is pointed directly at you, you are behind the curve. Being ahead of the curve is not the sole criteria. However, that kid showed up on my property with that that toy and started to turn around with it and I'd be ready to go bang too, My dad never let me roam the street with my M-16 BB gun or the other pellet pistols, They were used in the privacy of my own yard only. It was clearly explained that it looked just like one and anyone I met might very well treat it as though it were the real thing. I took that to heart and it made complete sense. In fact I distinctly remember being told that if I even saw a police officer while I had it to put it down immediately. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:40:39 PM EDT
[#33]
So, from what I gather from this knobgobbling, is, a kid in a field with a rifle is not a threat.
13-year olds kill people all the time. Hell, the Jonesboro school shooting was committed by a 13 and 11 year old, and SURPRISE!! They did it from an empty field next to the school. Little jackass had a gun. Little jackass did not drop said gun. Little jackass got shot. I have no problem with this. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:40:42 PM EDT
[#34]
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No, it wasn't, and Trayvon Martin was a scrawny kid with a bag of skittles, yet this same place all but gave Zimmerman the keys to the city for what he did. The point is, there was no way of knowing who the kid was, and what he was capable of. I, for one, would not suggest gambling on the possibility it might be a kid with a toy gun when there is a very real chance its not. That's your choice, but you see that sometimes leads to killing innocent kids. I'm not saying what happened here is right/wrong because there's not enough evidence. I'm saying that, as officials of the government, you better be damned certain you're right before going ahead, even to the point of taking a chance on taking a bullet. The burden of service dictates that, unfortunately sometimes. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:41:03 PM EDT
[#35]
Remember the Supreme Court set the standards. Police actions are not judged like a Monday night quarterback. Rather, what would a similarly trained and experienced officer have responded. If someone pointed what I thought was a gun at me, I'd shoot him too.
I think the deputy regrets his action. No one in their right mind would want to shoot a kid with a toy gun. Problem is that the gun could not be distinguished from a real one. It's a tragedy that could have been avoided. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:42:23 PM EDT
[#36]
7 Seconds from command to slide lock? I dont think I could ACCURATELY dump a G 17 in seven seconds.
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:43:32 PM EDT
[#37]
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Sorry but I call bullshit on this. We used to walk around with replica guns in the late 80s/early 90s all the time (I had an Uzi that was full size and weight, indistinguishable from the real thing unless you tried to remove the mag, my buddy had an M16) and we were never hassled or shot at. Kids used to walk around with actual guns in more rural areas, without incident. Something has changed, and it's not kids liking guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I blame the parents for buying it for him and letting him walk around without the orange tip. I have an airsoft AK and AR15 for a little training at home. They are full metal and nearly as heavy as the real deal. If they had real barrels, they would be just as heavy. They are full scale and from 20 feet away, you can't tell the difference. The only way to know is the orange tip. But then again, someone could paint the flash hider orange on a real gun, so it's a luck of the draw for the cop if he comes upon one. I feel sorry for both the cop and the kid, but that's what you get when you have stupid parents breeding stupid kids. He simply shouldn't be walking around the neighborhood with it. Sorry but I call bullshit on this. We used to walk around with replica guns in the late 80s/early 90s all the time (I had an Uzi that was full size and weight, indistinguishable from the real thing unless you tried to remove the mag, my buddy had an M16) and we were never hassled or shot at. Kids used to walk around with actual guns in more rural areas, without incident. Something has changed, and it's not kids liking guns. You're right, something has changed. But the end result is still the same, kid is dead. Our society has changed, young kids ARE shooting and killing innocent people, we have had a few recently (one right here in Sparks Nevada) so Cops now have knowledge of kids killing people. Some other names come to mind, Adam Lanza, Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris...all not much older than this dead kid. So the times have changed, THEY HAVE "CHANGED". Kids are killing the same as adults, cops know these cases well and act from training, information and experience. It's shitty it has to be this way, but it's the society we have created. 
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:44:13 PM EDT
[#38]
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That's your choice, but you see that sometimes leads to killing innocent kids. I'm not saying what happened here is right/wrong because there's not enough evidence. I'm saying that, as officials of the government, you better be damned certain you're right before going ahead, even to the point of taking a chance on taking a bullet. The burden of service dictates that, unfortunately sometimes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No, it wasn't, and Trayvon Martin was a scrawny kid with a bag of skittles, yet this same place all but gave Zimmerman the keys to the city for what he did. The point is, there was no way of knowing who the kid was, and what he was capable of. I, for one, would not suggest gambling on the possibility it might be a kid with a toy gun when there is a very real chance its not. That's your choice, but you see that sometimes leads to killing innocent kids. I'm not saying what happened here is right/wrong because there's not enough evidence. I'm saying that, as officials of the government, you better be damned certain you're right before going ahead, even to the point of taking a chance on taking a bullet. The burden of service dictates that, unfortunately sometimes. I don't remember that being part of my oath, and interestingly enough, the Supreme Court agrees with me. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:48:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
7 Seconds from command to slide lock? I dont think I could ACCURATELY dump a G 17 in seven seconds. You need more practice. BTW; guns were not "dumped" |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:49:29 PM EDT
[#40]
That gun looks real and from one article I read "was real."
I keep reading "pellet gun." If it was a pellet gun and not an airsoft it actually WOULD be a deadly weapon. As an LEO I can tell you right now if a 13yo pointed that gun at me outside of training REGARDLESS of the circumstances I am going to be shooting. The investigation will bring the truth out. Someone be sure and post any updates! |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:49:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's your choice, but you see that sometimes leads to killing innocent kids. I'm not saying what happened here is right/wrong because there's not enough evidence. I'm saying that, as officials of the government, you better be damned certain you're right before going ahead, even to the point of taking a chance on taking a bullet. The burden of service dictates that, unfortunately sometimes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No, it wasn't, and Trayvon Martin was a scrawny kid with a bag of skittles, yet this same place all but gave Zimmerman the keys to the city for what he did. The point is, there was no way of knowing who the kid was, and what he was capable of. I, for one, would not suggest gambling on the possibility it might be a kid with a toy gun when there is a very real chance its not. That's your choice, but you see that sometimes leads to killing innocent kids. I'm not saying what happened here is right/wrong because there's not enough evidence. I'm saying that, as officials of the government, you better be damned certain you're right before going ahead, even to the point of taking a chance on taking a bullet. The burden of service dictates that, unfortunately sometimes. Nobody and I mean NOBODY that I have ever met in LE would agree with this. There is no way in Hell I am going to "chance" taking a bullet from an AK in order to make sure its real or the age of the person holding it. I mean seriously, I see you're in the military, if this was a 13 yoa boy in Afghanistan pointing that "toy" you're telling me you would wait and "chance" getting shot because it "might" be fake? No fucking way. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:50:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't remember that being part of my oath, and interestingly enough, the Supreme Court agrees with me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No, it wasn't, and Trayvon Martin was a scrawny kid with a bag of skittles, yet this same place all but gave Zimmerman the keys to the city for what he did. The point is, there was no way of knowing who the kid was, and what he was capable of. I, for one, would not suggest gambling on the possibility it might be a kid with a toy gun when there is a very real chance its not. That's your choice, but you see that sometimes leads to killing innocent kids. I'm not saying what happened here is right/wrong because there's not enough evidence. I'm saying that, as officials of the government, you better be damned certain you're right before going ahead, even to the point of taking a chance on taking a bullet. The burden of service dictates that, unfortunately sometimes. I don't remember that being part of my oath, and interestingly enough, the Supreme Court agrees with me. The Supreme Court argument has lots its luster lately, given how many times they've been foregone morals in the past. Either way, we agree to disagree. That's why I can't be law enforcement, because I would assume the lives of the citizens I'm paid to protect are more valuable than my own. What a joke that would be at the department, huh? |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:51:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Supreme Court argument has lots its luster lately, given how many times they've been foregone morals in the past. Either way, we agree to disagree. That's why I can't be law enforcement, because I would assume the lives of the citizens I'm paid to protect are more valuable than my own. What a joke that would be at the department, huh? You made a wise decision, and we thank you. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:53:33 PM EDT
[#44]
No orange tip because the whole BARREL forward of the gas block is gone..... If I was a "firearms expert" and written several articles and taught classes etc..my first instinctive thought is that "AK" doesn't look "right"....it may not be real.... but it's moot point now as the cop made a bad call and now has to live with it.... |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:54:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nobody and I mean NOBODY that I have ever met in LE would agree with this. There is no way in Hell I am going to "chance" taking a bullet from an AK in order to make sure its real or the age of the person holding it. I mean seriously, I see you're in the military, if this was a 13 yoa boy in Afghanistan pointing that "toy" you're telling me you would wait and "chance" getting shot because it "might" be fake? No fucking way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No, it wasn't, and Trayvon Martin was a scrawny kid with a bag of skittles, yet this same place all but gave Zimmerman the keys to the city for what he did. The point is, there was no way of knowing who the kid was, and what he was capable of. I, for one, would not suggest gambling on the possibility it might be a kid with a toy gun when there is a very real chance its not. That's your choice, but you see that sometimes leads to killing innocent kids. I'm not saying what happened here is right/wrong because there's not enough evidence. I'm saying that, as officials of the government, you better be damned certain you're right before going ahead, even to the point of taking a chance on taking a bullet. The burden of service dictates that, unfortunately sometimes. Nobody and I mean NOBODY that I have ever met in LE would agree with this. There is no way in Hell I am going to "chance" taking a bullet from an AK in order to make sure its real or the age of the person holding it. I mean seriously, I see you're in the military, if this was a 13 yoa boy in Afghanistan pointing that "toy" you're telling me you would wait and "chance" getting shot because it "might" be fake? No fucking way. Yep and I did, except he was holding a pistol (another with pipe on shoulder) and was around 8-10ish. I assessed the threat, figured a pistol shot wouldn't likely touch me at 30yds and moving, and didn't want to kill a kid it was indeed a toy. Almost lost my temper and shot at him anyway, but remembered the backstop rule. Thought about it a LOT since then, and it still impacts the way I look at things. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:54:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Supreme Court argument has lots its luster lately, given how many times they've been foregone morals in the past. Either way, we agree to disagree. That's why I can't be law enforcement, because I would assume the lives of the citizens I'm paid to protect are more valuable than my own. What a joke that would be at the department, huh? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No, it wasn't, and Trayvon Martin was a scrawny kid with a bag of skittles, yet this same place all but gave Zimmerman the keys to the city for what he did. The point is, there was no way of knowing who the kid was, and what he was capable of. I, for one, would not suggest gambling on the possibility it might be a kid with a toy gun when there is a very real chance its not. That's your choice, but you see that sometimes leads to killing innocent kids. I'm not saying what happened here is right/wrong because there's not enough evidence. I'm saying that, as officials of the government, you better be damned certain you're right before going ahead, even to the point of taking a chance on taking a bullet. The burden of service dictates that, unfortunately sometimes. I don't remember that being part of my oath, and interestingly enough, the Supreme Court agrees with me. The Supreme Court argument has lots its luster lately, given how many times they've been foregone morals in the past. Either way, we agree to disagree. That's why I can't be law enforcement, because I would assume the lives of the citizens I'm paid to protect are more valuable than my own. What a joke that would be at the department, huh? That's funny. My agency has covered the priority of life numerous times in training. The LEO is #3 on that list. Bad guy is last. But clearly you're an expert on law enforcement. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:55:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nobody and I mean NOBODY that I have ever met in LE would agree with this. There is no way in Hell I am going to "chance" taking a bullet from an AK in order to make sure its real or the age of the person holding it. I mean seriously, I see you're in the military, if this was a 13 yoa boy in Afghanistan pointing that "toy" you're telling me you would wait and "chance" getting shot because it "might" be fake? No fucking way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No, it wasn't, and Trayvon Martin was a scrawny kid with a bag of skittles, yet this same place all but gave Zimmerman the keys to the city for what he did. The point is, there was no way of knowing who the kid was, and what he was capable of. I, for one, would not suggest gambling on the possibility it might be a kid with a toy gun when there is a very real chance its not. That's your choice, but you see that sometimes leads to killing innocent kids. I'm not saying what happened here is right/wrong because there's not enough evidence. I'm saying that, as officials of the government, you better be damned certain you're right before going ahead, even to the point of taking a chance on taking a bullet. The burden of service dictates that, unfortunately sometimes. Nobody and I mean NOBODY that I have ever met in LE would agree with this. There is no way in Hell I am going to "chance" taking a bullet from an AK in order to make sure its real or the age of the person holding it. I mean seriously, I see you're in the military, if this was a 13 yoa boy in Afghanistan pointing that "toy" you're telling me you would wait and "chance" getting shot because it "might" be fake? No fucking way. He's a member of the "do as I say, not as I do" crowd. In this same situation he'd have shot too. He knows it, just won't admit it. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:56:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's funny. My agency has covered the priority of life numerous times in training. The LEO is #3 on that list. Bad guy is last. But clearly you're an expert on law enforcement. Shhh...they can't know our secrets. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:56:39 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bullshit. This wasn't Doc Holiday. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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check out my above post with link, that damn thing looks identical to my Romanian AK sitting in the safe right down to the stainless charging handle. Point that at me, dont drop it (again according to reports) and I'm firing No reports of pointing it anywhere, though, as far as I've seen. Actually it's curious that the statements have not cleared that up. If you wait until the gun is pointed directly at you, you are behind the curve. Bullshit. This wasn't Doc Holiday. I'm calling bullshit on you and your ignorant post. Anyone who carries a gun for a living and deals with multiple shitbags on a daily basis knows you don't wait to have the business end of a weapon pointed at you before taking action. I know the jbt was probally just looking to gun down a innocent child. Give me a fucking break. Where were the parents? I'm guessing probably not at work. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:57:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's funny. My agency has covered the priority of life numerous times in training. The LEO is #3 on that list. Bad guy is last. But clearly you're an expert on law enforcement. No, but i'm becoming an expert on useless fuckstick cops every day. It would actually be interesting to see this training though, since it interests me. I'll have to ask some cop friends about it tomorrow. It's called "priority of life"? |
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