So why didn't Koresh set an ambush? - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - So why didn't Koresh set an ambush? (Page 2 of 12)

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:27:53 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Looks like you may be showing your "cop" colors...by back tracking and lying your way out of the position you have put yourself in. Ever do that in court?

Online he can't plant stuff so it is harder to backtrack...

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:27:55 PM EDT

[#2]

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And here all these years I thought they HAD ambushed the officers. If it wasn't an ambush, I don't know what you'd call it.
"ATF shot first". Yeah,rrriiiggghhhtt. Only a Koresh apologist would really think that.

Exactly, it was just like that time Vickie Weaver attacked Lon Horiuchi armed with a baby. Only his skill and training saved his life that day. These guys are just trying to protect themselves while doing a difficult job. Shooting dogs and kids in the back is hard work.

More defense of another nutcase who , as did Koresh, had the option of surrendering early-on, or turning himself in long before anything bad might have happened to anyone else present.

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:28:13 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Why not ask "why didn't he just walk out"?
That, whether you like it or not, is how the system works.

It is inconcievable that anyone would say things like "why not arrest him in town where there would not be a fight" and then say "the BD's weren't violent" "no way the BD's fired first". Those two thought processes are not reconcilable.

As this has been hashed and rehashed no one knows who did what first......because NO ONE is going to admit to it......NEITHER side.

There is MORE than enough blame to go around, regardless of what your opinion is of the .gov or the BD's.

OH.....IBTL

So you are saying that EVERY time someone has a warrant after them, the ATF is going to raid their home? He didn't walk out because the BD'S HAD ALREADY BEEN FIRED ON!

Would you have? Especially when the FBI wouldn't allow the media to cover this? Sounds like a set up to knock off the assaulted and have as few witnesses as possible.

And you are right about one thing. Neither side will admit to who fired first. But it is pretty clear by the evidence...where's the front door?

And this thread was about FIGHTING HOLES! It wasn't about blame. The cops started with the blame game on this thread.

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:28:43 PM EDT

[#4]

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Most of these threads are like train-wrecks or retarded people falling down during the 100 meter at the Special Olympics... you just have to watch

quoted before edited...

No need to quote that... I have no intention of editing anything. Your tinfoil might be giving you mixed signals about that though.

It just shows you as an asshole...you like to make fun of mentally challenged ppl? Wouldn't that make you self hating??
- oh I'm so hurt. Seems I offneded one of the supposed "bleeding hearts" around here. Take your false "offended" feelings elsewhere.

Why would you be hurt? You come across as a little man who got a badge to get back for all those times your head was dumped in a toilet as a youth. We are all impressed Mr. Patrolman. You don't need to impress us with your tough talk...

{squeezecockerp7m8}waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, someone isn't all pissed off because of my internet tough talk and attempted putdowns, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa{/squeezecockerp7m8}

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:30:27 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

You started by calling ME an appoligist because I didn't say "Koresh ambushed the ATF".

Looks like you may be showing your "cop" colors...by back tracking and lying your way out of the position you have put yourself in. Ever do that in court?

Or would you like to explain yourself further?

You may not agree with me on this subject, but at least I didn't start calling people names and trying to disrupt an honest question.

I am not "lying" about anything. Nor am I calling you or anyone else a name.As has been stated, the whole "koresh is such a victim, boo hoo on him" thing is worn out. Maybe they need to tack a thread so the same thing doesn't have to get beat to death all the time. Anyone who thinks ol' David is a victim needs their head examined.

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:32:17 PM EDT

[#6]

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Most of these threads are like train-wrecks or retarded people falling down during the 100 meter at the Special Olympics... you just have to watch

quoted before edited...

No need to quote that... I have no intention of editing anything. Your tinfoil might be giving you mixed signals about that though.

It just shows you as an asshole...you like to make fun of mentally challenged ppl? Wouldn't that make you self hating??
- oh I'm so hurt. Seems I offneded one of the supposed "bleeding hearts" around here. Take your false "offended" feelings elsewhere.

Why would you be hurt? You come across as a little man who got a badge to get back for all those times your head was dumped in a toilet as a youth. We are all impressed Mr. Patrolman. You don't need to impress us with your tough talk...

{squeezecockerp7m8}waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, someone isn't all pissed off because of my internet tough talk and attempted putdowns, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa{/squeezecockerp7m8}

WTF would I care what some internet prick with a badge thinks?

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:32:36 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Asking a dead man why he didn't walk out, has as much merit as asking why didn't he ambush the ATF.

Come on.........you know by now your post was going to start a thread like this

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:34:39 PM EDT

[#8]

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And here all these years I thought they HAD ambushed the officers. If it wasn't an ambush, I don't know what you'd call it.
"ATF shot first". Yeah,rrriiiggghhhtt. Only a Koresh apologist would really think that.

Exactly, it was just like that time Vickie Weaver attacked Lon Horiuchi armed with a baby. Only his skill and training saved his life that day. These guys are just trying to protect themselves while doing a difficult job. Shooting dogs and kids in the back is hard work.

More defense of another nutcase who , as did Koresh, had the option of surrendering early-on, or turning himself in long before anything bad might have happened to anyone else present.

In your logic: saw shotgun bbl. = shoot child

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:35:33 PM EDT

[#9]

Didn't Koresh INVITE the ATF to inspect the weapons they had,
and the ATF declined the invitation?
The ATF knew Koresh went to town everyday.
They could have quietly arrested him.
Koresh knew this as well.
The ATF were dead-set on a televised dynamic entry.

Idiots.

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:36:47 PM EDT

[#10]

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Quoted:

Asking a dead man why he didn't walk out, has as much merit as asking why didn't he ambush the ATF.

Come on.........you know by now your post was going to start a thread like this

No actually I didn't. I haven't read the other thread yet and the title of the other Waco thread made me think of my question.

I am not as diabolical as you would believe. I just ask what's on my mind. I would hope people would talk like adults from the start, but that doesn't seem to be possible in America anymore.

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:37:25 PM EDT

[#11]

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Most of these threads are like train-wrecks or retarded people falling down during the 100 meter at the Special Olympics... you just have to watch

quoted before edited...

No need to quote that... I have no intention of editing anything. Your tinfoil might be giving you mixed signals about that though.

It just shows you as an asshole...you like to make fun of mentally challenged ppl? Wouldn't that make you self hating??
- oh I'm so hurt. Seems I offneded one of the supposed "bleeding hearts" around here. Take your false "offended" feelings elsewhere.

Why would you be hurt? You come across as a little man who got a badge to get back for all those times your head was dumped in a toilet as a youth. We are all impressed Mr. Patrolman. You don't need to impress us with your tough talk...

{squeezecockerp7m8}waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, someone isn't all pissed off because of my internet tough talk and attempted putdowns, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa{/squeezecockerp7m8}

WTF would I care what some internet prick with a badge thinks?

then why keep responding? Tinfoil aliens making you do so?

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:37:41 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
In your logic: saw shotgun bbl. = shoot child

No, saw shotgun barrel= charges, court case and warrant. Weavers paranoia= standoff where people get shot.

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:39:32 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:

You started by calling ME an appoligist because I didn't say "Koresh ambushed the ATF".

Looks like you may be showing your "cop" colors...by back tracking and lying your way out of the position you have put yourself in. Ever do that in court?

Or would you like to explain yourself further?

You may not agree with me on this subject, but at least I didn't start calling people names and trying to disrupt an honest question.

I am not "lying" about anything. Nor am I calling you or anyone else a name.As has been stated, the whole "koresh is such a victim, boo hoo on him" thing is worn out. Maybe they need to tack a thread so the same thing doesn't have to get beat to death all the time. Anyone who thinks ol' David is a victim needs their head examined.

And anyone who defends the FBI/ATF actions before, during and after the RR/Waco incidents needs their heads examined as well.

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:44:17 PM EDT

[#14]

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In your logic: saw shotgun bbl. = shoot child

No, saw shotgun barrel= charges, court case and warrant. Weavers paranoia= standoff where people get shot.

Actually, more like

ATF tries to get Weaver to spy on Aryan Nation, Weaver refuses = ATF entraps Weaver to saw down a shotgun = charges = court case and warrents = weavers refusing to come down off the mountain = Men in camoflage with suppressed MP5s in their backyard = dog shot because it would have revealed USM position = Kevin Harris shoots USM = USMs shoot kevin harris in back

Hmm...why did weaver saw that bbl down?
Hmm...why did they try to get weaver on NFA charges?
Was it because he wouldn't go to bat for them to spy on the Aryan Nations?
So they decided, we'll get this SOB, and tried to entrap him on charges of a sawed off shotty?
Why did ATF tell the military that Weaver was running a meth lab?

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:44:21 PM EDT

[#15]

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Most of these threads are like train-wrecks or retarded people falling down during the 100 meter at the Special Olympics... you just have to watch

quoted before edited...

No need to quote that... I have no intention of editing anything. Your tinfoil might be giving you mixed signals about that though.

It just shows you as an asshole...you like to make fun of mentally challenged ppl? Wouldn't that make you self hating??
- oh I'm so hurt. Seems I offneded one of the supposed "bleeding hearts" around here. Take your false "offended" feelings elsewhere.

Why would you be hurt? You come across as a little man who got a badge to get back for all those times your head was dumped in a toilet as a youth. We are all impressed Mr. Patrolman. You don't need to impress us with your tough talk...

{squeezecockerp7m8}waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, someone isn't all pissed off because of my internet tough talk and attempted putdowns, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa{/squeezecockerp7m8}

WTF would I care what some internet prick with a badge thinks?

then why keep responding? Tinfoil aliens making you do so?

I'm not your type dude...I don't have a dog...

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:45:56 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
In your logic: saw shotgun bbl. = shoot child

No, saw shotgun barrel= charges, court case and warrant. Weavers paranoia= standoff where people get shot.

With guys like you on the side of law, no wonder some are paranoid...

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:47:32 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
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In your logic: saw shotgun bbl. = shoot child

No, saw shotgun barrel= charges, court case and warrant. Weavers paranoia= standoff where people get shot.

Actually, more like

ATF tries to get Weaver to spy on Aryan Nation, Weaver refuses = ATF entraps Weaver to saw down a shotgun = charges = court case and warrents = weavers refusing to come down off the mountain = Men in camoflage with suppressed MP5s in their backyard = dog shot because it would have revealed USM position = Kevin Harris shoots USM = USMs shoot kevin harris in back

Hmm...why did weaver saw that bbl down?
Hmm...why did they try to get weaver on NFA charges?
Was it because he wouldn't go to bat for them to spy on the Aryan Nations?
So they decided, we'll get this SOB, and tried to entrap him on charges of a sawed off shotty?
Why did ATF tell the military that Weaver was running a meth lab?

If tc had been working the Deloreon drug entrapment he probably would have taken a minigun to his whole family...

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:54:28 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
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In your logic: saw shotgun bbl. = shoot child

No, saw shotgun barrel= charges, court case and warrant. Weavers paranoia= standoff where people get shot.

Actually, more like

ATF tries to get Weaver to spy on Aryan Nation, Weaver refuses = ATF entraps Weaver to saw down a shotgun = charges = court case and warrents = weavers refusing to come down off the mountain = Men in camoflage with suppressed MP5s in their backyard = dog shot because it would have revealed USM position = Kevin Harris shoots USM = USMs shoot kevin harris in back

Hmm...why did weaver saw that bbl down?
Hmm...why did they try to get weaver on NFA charges?
Was it because he wouldn't go to bat for them to spy on the Aryan Nations?
So they decided, we'll get this SOB, and tried to entrap him on charges of a sawed off shotty?
Why did ATF tell the military that Weaver was running a meth lab?

Actually...FBI tries to get Randy to spy on Aryan Nations.
- A FBI informant tries to get Randy to cut down a shot gun for him (leverage against Randy if he does it).
- Randy says no.
- Informant keeps it up. Randy says no.
- Informant keeps it up. Randy finally says ok because he needed the money.
- Randy is busted.
- Court date is set.
- Court date is changed and Randy doesn't get notification of it.
- Randy now has warrant out for his arrest for FTA.
- Randy decides to stay put when he finds out from a friend that the government is after him and pulled the trick they did.
- US Marshall Service sets up surviellence on Randy's "compound" (Shack with a shed)
- US Marshall Service was watching Randy's home for over a year before Randy screwed himself.
- US Marshalls in full camo looking like Army soldiers ready for battle are surprised by Sams (Randy's dog)
- US Marshall shoots dog.
- Sam Weaver and Kevin Harris are small game hunting when this happens and see the dog get shot.
- Sam and Kevin shoot at the US Marshall (killing him) then starts to run back to the house.
- Another US Marshall shoots Sam in back as he runs away.
- Kevin is shot in the firing. Kevin get's back to house.

...then it all starts.

Weaver was aquitted on all charges brought against him except for the sawed off shotgun. And after the court case was over, most of the jury said they would have aquitted him of the NFA violations as well.

Randy wins a 3.2 million dollar wrongful death lawsuit against the government.

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:56:51 PM EDT

[#19]

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And here all these years I thought they HAD ambushed the officers. If it wasn't an ambush, I don't know what you'd call it.
"ATF shot first". Yeah,rrriiiggghhhtt. Only a Koresh apologist would really think that.

Exactly, it was just like that time Vickie Weaver attacked Lon Horiuchi armed with a baby. Only his skill and training saved his life that day. These guys are just trying to protect themselves while doing a difficult job. Shooting dogs and kids in the back is hard work.

More defense of another nutcase who , as did Koresh, had the option of surrendering early-on, or turning himself in long before anything bad might have happened to anyone else present.

You mean the former green beret who refused to be an infomant and was lied to when they claimed he would lose his home?

Or do you mean the nutcase whose 13 year old child was shot in the back as he ran for home? The one whose dog was shot because it barked at the Feds who were hiding on his property?

Good thing they shot that dog or it may have blown their cover and exposed their hiding place.

Goddamn brilliant police work I tell ya. They should print a manual.

Posted: 12/23/2005 2:59:43 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Didn't Koresh INVITE the ATF to inspect the weapons they had,
and the ATF declined the invitation?

The ATF didn't decline, they just thought it would be more to accept the invitation in the form of a daylight raid.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:08:02 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
In your logic: saw shotgun bbl. = shoot child

No, saw shotgun barrel= charges, court case and warrant. Weavers paranoia= standoff where people get shot.

Not exactly how that one happened.

US Marshalls were doing survellence when Sammy Weaver and a family friend Kevin walked near their position while hunting with the family dog. Frustrated that the dog exposed their hide by barking the dog was shot with a suppressed MP5.

Not knowing who the assholes hiding in the bush were who just killed his dog 13 year old Sammy Weaver fires at the US Marshalls, killing one. The Marshalls fired back as Sam and Kevin ran for home and Sammy Weaver was shot in the back and killed.

US Marshalls initially filed false reports that indicated they DID NOT shoot first and they further claimed they did not fire at all until a US Marshall was shot and killed. Later investigations by the US Marshalls office proved that the first reports filed were absolutely untrue.

Vickie Weaver was shot when illegal ROE were put into place that allowed FBI snipers to shoot on sight any traget of opportunity. While sniper Lon Horiuchi claims he was targeting Randy Weaver as he ran to his front door with his daughter after being fired upon, Vickie Weaver was shot and killed as she stood in the door holding their baby.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:09:12 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
In your logic: saw shotgun bbl. = shoot child

No, saw shotgun barrel= charges, court case and warrant. Weavers paranoia= standoff where people get shot.

Actually, more like

ATF tries to get Weaver to spy on Aryan Nation, Weaver refuses = ATF entraps Weaver to saw down a shotgun = charges = court case and warrents = weavers refusing to come down off the mountain = Men in camoflage with suppressed MP5s in their backyard = dog shot because it would have revealed USM position = Kevin Harris shoots USM = USMs shoot kevin harris in back

Hmm...why did weaver saw that bbl down?
Hmm...why did they try to get weaver on NFA charges?
Was it because he wouldn't go to bat for them to spy on the Aryan Nations?
So they decided, we'll get this SOB, and tried to entrap him on charges of a sawed off shotty?
Why did ATF tell the military that Weaver was running a meth lab?

Just a correction, it was 13 year old Randy Weaver who was shot in the back and killed. Kevin was shot but lived.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:12:17 PM EDT

[#23]

The ATF were dead-set on a televised dynamic entry.

ATF's funding was up for debate on capital hill. They needed a nice television photo op.

They named the operation "Showtime".

All the planning was for best stage effect.

ATF wanted a "show and tell", tables of guns and stacks of ammo to show on TV, to show how they (ATF) was essential to the safety of America, and therefore should get more funding.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:12:22 PM EDT

[#24]

From "why didn't koresh use fighting holes" to "this is how Vicki Weaver died".

ARFCOM....

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:12:22 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Not exactly how that one happened.

US Marshalls were doing survellence when Sammy Weaver and a family friend Kevin walked near their position while hunting with the family dog. Frustrated that the dog exposed their hide by barking the dog was shot with a suppressed MP5.

Not knowing who the assholes hiding in the bush were who just killed his dog 13 year old Sammy Weaver fired at the US Marshalls. The Marshalls fired back as Sam and Kevin ran for home and Sammy Weaver was shot in the back and killed. Kevin shot and killed one Marshall in the exchange of gunfire.

US Marshalls initially filed false reports that indicated they DID NOT shoot first and they further claimed they did not fire at all until a US Marshall was shot and killed. Later investigations by the US Marshalls office proved that the first reports filed were absolutely untrue.

Vickie Weaver was shot when illegal ROE were put into place that allowed FBI snipers to shoot on sight any traget of opportunity. While sniper Lon Horiuchi claims he was targeting Randy Weaver as he ran to his front door with his daughter after being fired upon, Vickie Weaver was shot and killed as she stood in the door holding their baby.

I am aware of the facts of the case. Those officers wouldn't have needed to BE on that hill observing if Weaver had taken the slightest bit of interest in his legal case. I know there'll be someone who posts "oh, he had the wrong court date". Well guess what: there are plenty of people who don't keep track of their case, they figure they'll go through their lives and wait for LE to catch up with them someday off in the distant future. Til then, its "not their problem". The average guy facing charges would be in constant contact with their lawyer and know when they had to be in court, and not force officers to go looking for them. As with Koresh, I have no sympathy.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:13:05 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
The ATF were dead-set on a televised dynamic entry.

ATF's funding was up for debate on capital hill. They needed a nice television photo op.

They named the operation "Showtime".

All the planning was for best stage effect.

ATF wanted a "show and tell", tables of guns and stacks of ammo to show on TV, to show how they (ATF) was essential to the safety of America, and therefore should get more funding.

And that is very true.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:18:17 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Not exactly how that one happened.

US Marshalls were doing survellence when Sammy Weaver and a family friend Kevin walked near their position while hunting with the family dog. Frustrated that the dog exposed their hide by barking the dog was shot with a suppressed MP5.

Not knowing who the assholes hiding in the bush were who just killed his dog 13 year old Sammy Weaver fired at the US Marshalls. The Marshalls fired back as Sam and Kevin ran for home and Sammy Weaver was shot in the back and killed. Kevin shot and killed one Marshall in the exchange of gunfire.

US Marshalls initially filed false reports that indicated they DID NOT shoot first and they further claimed they did not fire at all until a US Marshall was shot and killed. Later investigations by the US Marshalls office proved that the first reports filed were absolutely untrue.

Vickie Weaver was shot when illegal ROE were put into place that allowed FBI snipers to shoot on sight any traget of opportunity. While sniper Lon Horiuchi claims he was targeting Randy Weaver as he ran to his front door with his daughter after being fired upon, Vickie Weaver was shot and killed as she stood in the door holding their baby.

I am aware of the facts of the case. Those officers wouldn't have needed to BE on that hill observing if Weaver had taken the slightest bit of interest in his legal case. I know there'll be someone who posts "oh, he had the wrong court date". Well guess what: there are plenty of people who don't keep track of their case, they figure they'll go through their lives and wait for LE to catch up with them someday off in the distant future. Til then, its "not their problem". The average guy facing charges would be in constant contact with their lawyer and know when they had to be in court, and not force officers to go looking for them. As with Koresh, I have no sympathy.

Obviously you don't.

tc556guy...

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:20:55 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Not exactly how that one happened.

US Marshalls were doing survellence when Sammy Weaver and a family friend Kevin walked near their position while hunting with the family dog. Frustrated that the dog exposed their hide by barking the dog was shot with a suppressed MP5.

Not knowing who the assholes hiding in the bush were who just killed his dog 13 year old Sammy Weaver fired at the US Marshalls. The Marshalls fired back as Sam and Kevin ran for home and Sammy Weaver was shot in the back and killed. Kevin shot and killed one Marshall in the exchange of gunfire.

US Marshalls initially filed false reports that indicated they DID NOT shoot first and they further claimed they did not fire at all until a US Marshall was shot and killed. Later investigations by the US Marshalls office proved that the first reports filed were absolutely untrue.

Vickie Weaver was shot when illegal ROE were put into place that allowed FBI snipers to shoot on sight any traget of opportunity. While sniper Lon Horiuchi claims he was targeting Randy Weaver as he ran to his front door with his daughter after being fired upon, Vickie Weaver was shot and killed as she stood in the door holding their baby.

I am aware of the facts of the case. Those officers wouldn't have needed to BE on that hill observing if Weaver had taken the slightest bit of interest in his legal case. I know there'll be someone who posts "oh, he had the wrong court date". Well guess what: there are plenty of people who don't keep track of their case, they figure they'll go through their lives and wait for LE to catch up with them someday off in the distant future. Til then, its "not their problem". The average guy facing charges would be in constant contact with their lawyer and know when they had to be in court, and not force officers to go looking for them. As with Koresh, I have no sympathy.

If you aware of the facts of the case you are aware that ATF LIED to the Weavers and claimed they would LOSE THEIR HOME if they didn't cooperate with ATF.

You do know that part right?

You do know THAT is why they failed to appear right?

You do know that the Weaves HONESTLY BELIEVED if they showed up and failed to cooperate at a ATF INFORMANT that their HOME WOULD BE SEIZED and that it was ALL A LIE TOLD BY ATF.

So they should have just showed up and LOST THEIR HOME because he wouldn't be a ATF INFORMANT...is that really your position on this one?

Is that the kind of cooperation with a government agency you are advocating?

Randy wasn't just facing NFA charges. He did show up to talk to ATF remember?

It was only when he was told that he would LOSE HIS HOME IF HE DIDN'T COOPERATE that he failed to appear.

And it was because of this BLATANT LIE told by ATF AGENTS that he was acquitted of all charges.

Are you aware of those facts of the case?

When a government agency states that they are gonna ILLEGALLY SEIZE YOUR HOME are you really advocating that the average American should "cooperate"?

And is it further your position that if they DO NOT cooperate with such an agency then they rightly deserve to be killed with their family members?

Is that really what you think?

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:21:32 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Obviously you don't.

Obviously another Weaver apologist.
With some of the responses here, it is clear who I am arguing with tonight: people who largely have an adversarial relationship with LE and an ingrained distrust of LE in general. I consider the source.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:23:46 PM EDT

[#30]

tc556guy..."As with Koresh, I have no sympathy.

That is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS. But neither do a lot of people. Neither do I.

But a LOT of people know the difference between tranny and REAL Freedom. I don't think you do.

Lets just blame ALL the public for ALL of the problems of this country. Crap, let's just let every POLITICIAN AND LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER off the hook. We've already done it in Waco and in Ruby Ridge, so let's do it for real. Ok, all you public servants, do what EVER you want. It's ok!

No repercussions for you, LOOK we've done it before, let's do it for ALL of the future.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:24:29 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

And is it further your position that if they DO NOT cooperate with such an agency then they rightly deserve to be killed with their family members?

Is that really what you think?

I think he should have cooperated, period. Sought legal counsel and cooperated.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:26:13 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
it is clear who I am arguing with tonight: people who largely have an adversarial relationship with LE and an ingrained distrust of LE in general.

I wonder why that is...

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:27:43 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
it is clear who I am arguing with tonight: people who largely have an adversarial relationship with LE and an ingrained distrust of LE in general.

I wonder why that is...

Paranoia and probably in some cases extensive run-ins with LE.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:29:34 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
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And is it further your position that if they DO NOT cooperate with such an agency then they rightly deserve to be killed with their family members?

Is that really what you think?

I think he should have cooperated, period. Sought legal counsel and cooperated.

So, you are saying he should have become an informant?

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:30:13 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

And is it further your position that if they DO NOT cooperate with such an agency then they rightly deserve to be killed with their family members?

Is that really what you think?

I think he should have cooperated, period. Sought legal counsel and cooperated.

So, you are saying he should have become an informant?

Yup. If thats what cooperation entailed, yes.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:32:07 PM EDT

[#36]

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Most of these threads are like train-wrecks or retarded people falling down during the 100 meter at the Special Olympics... you just have to watch

quoted before edited...

No need to quote that... I have no intention of editing anything. Your tinfoil might be giving you mixed signals about that though.

It just shows you as an asshole...you like to make fun of mentally challenged ppl? Wouldn't that make you self hating??
- oh I'm so hurt. Seems I offneded one of the supposed "bleeding hearts" around here. Take your false "offended" feelings elsewhere.

Why would you be hurt? You come across as a little man who got a badge to get back for all those times your head was dumped in a toilet as a youth. We are all impressed Mr. Patrolman. You don't need to impress us with your tough talk...

{squeezecockerp7m8}waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, someone isn't all pissed off because of my internet tough talk and attempted putdowns, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa{/squeezecockerp7m8}

WTF would I care what some internet prick with a badge thinks?

then why keep responding? Tinfoil aliens making you do so?

I'm not your type dude...I don't have a dog...

oh how original. Come up with that all by yourself?

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:34:28 PM EDT

[#37]

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it is clear who I am arguing with tonight: people who largely have an adversarial relationship with LE and an ingrained distrust of LE in general.

I wonder why that is...

Paranoia and probably in some cases extensive run-ins with LE.

So, if you call .gov on murder you are paranoid?

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:36:20 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
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Quoted:

And is it further your position that if they DO NOT cooperate with such an agency then they rightly deserve to be killed with their family members?

Is that really what you think?

I think he should have cooperated, period. Sought legal counsel and cooperated.

So, you are saying he should have become an informant?

Yup. If thats what cooperation entailed, yes.

You are quite the patriot...threads like these are great for weeding out the JBT sympathizers...

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:36:55 PM EDT

[#39]

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Obviously you don't.

Obviously another Weaver apologist.
With some of the responses here, it is clear who I am arguing with tonight: people who largely have an adversarial relationship with LE and an ingrained distrust of LE in general. I consider the source.

Well, you have one point right. ANYBODY that you allow authority to change your life, should be watched like a hawk. Or didn't you get the memo on that?

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.

Patrick Henry, speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

I am commonly opposed to those who modestly assume the rank of champions of liberty, and make a very patriotic noise about the people. It is the stale artifice which has duped the world a thousand times, and yet, though detected, it is still successful. I love liberty as well as anybody. I am proud of it, as the true title of our people to distinction above others; but...I would guard it by making the laws strong enough to protect it.

Fisher Ames, letter to George Richard Minot, June 23, 1789

On the other hand, the duty imposed upon him to take care, that the laws be faithfully executed, follows out the strong injunctions of his oath of office, that he will "preserve, protect, and defend the constitution." The great object of the executive department is to accomplish this purpose; and without it, be the form of government whatever it may, it will be utterly worthless for offence, or defence; for the redress of grievances, or the protection of rights; for the happiness, or good order, or safety of the people.

Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, 1833

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:37:17 PM EDT

[#40]

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oh how original. Come up with that all by yourself?

The old stand by used to be the donut shop, but I keep up with the current trends...

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:39:21 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
You are quite the patriot...threads like these are great for weeding out the JBT sympathizers...

And what exactly is your objection to LE using informants to monitor and ultimately end criminal activity?

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:39:33 PM EDT

[#42]

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it is clear who I am arguing with tonight: people who largely have an adversarial relationship with LE and an ingrained distrust of LE in general.

I wonder why that is...

Paranoia and probably in some cases extensive run-ins with LE.

Yep, it's all paranoia...

Attitudes such as yours are the reasons why LE in this country has gone downhill.
An institutionalized "us vs. them" attitude

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:40:20 PM EDT

[#43]

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Well, you have one point right. ANYBODY that you allow authority to change your life, should be watched like a hawk. Or didn't you get the memo on that?

It goes beyond that for the bashers.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:40:44 PM EDT

[#44]

I'm amazed this abortion of a thread hasn't been locked yet.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:41:08 PM EDT

[#45]

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Well, you have one point right. ANYBODY that you allow authority to change your life, should be watched like a hawk. Or didn't you get the memo on that?

It goes beyond that for the bashers.

But anyone who critiques LE is a basher, correct?
Who cares what we "scrotes" think anyway.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:41:15 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Attitudes such as yours are the reasons why LE in this country has gone downhill.
An institutionalized "us vs. them" attitude

It didn't start with officers, thats for sure. Examine yourself in the mirror.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:42:02 PM EDT

[#47]

An institutionalized "us vs. them" attitude

- oh and there isn't any "us vs them" coming from non-LEOs?

Pot meet kettle.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:43:10 PM EDT

[#48]

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Well, you have one point right. ANYBODY that you allow authority to change your life, should be watched like a hawk. Or didn't you get the memo on that?

It goes beyond that for the bashers.

But anyone who critiques LE is a basher, correct?
Who cares what we "scrotes" think anyway.

I care what citizens think.

It goes beyond "critique"; I have seen many an officer explain WHY LE operates as it does in a calm, rational and clear manner, yet the bashers insist on clinging to their misconceptions and diatribes because they simply and totally hate LE.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:45:28 PM EDT

[#49]

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Attitudes such as yours are the reasons why LE in this country has gone downhill.
An institutionalized "us vs. them" attitude

It didn't start with officers, thats for sure. Examine yourself in the mirror.

Where did it start then?
Citizens aren't bred from birth to have contempt for LE, so where does it come from?

FWIW, I am no basher.
Father is a 30 yr+ LE, and I'm going into LE after I graduate.

Posted: 12/23/2005 3:45:43 PM EDT

[#50]

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Well, you have one point right. ANYBODY that you allow authority to change your life, should be watched like a hawk. Or didn't you get the memo on that?

It goes beyond that for the bashers.

Maybe...but not for me. I like Freedom. And I don't follow Kool Aid drinkers. And that means ANYBODY. Republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives, preachers, police officers, etc.

I KNOW what the Constitution and the Bill of Rights mean and I will NOT allow my Freedom or the truth to be tossed around like it was a rag doll.

You can say what you want about Weaver and Koresh, but you are not right. You just have your "opinion". If you don't follow the Constitution, then you are just as guilty as Al Queda for being against our Freedom. You are either FOR Freedom and the Constitution or you are against it. Period!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - So why didn't Koresh set an ambush? (Page 2 of 12)

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