Quoted: Another proposal.  Anyone who takes public aid is drafted first.  I have federal loans for school, and have no problem being told that I was going first as a condition of taking those loans.  Don't know what I'd do, I have a bad back, but if there is anything that I can do, go for it.

Quoted: We're all responsible for the decisions we make in life. Hell of a thought, huh? Personally, I don't WANT the goverment to absolve me of such responsibilities. You stated that you want to be drafted, but then you say that your leaving would be abandoning poeple who depend on you. So you're saying that you want an excuse to abandon your responsabilities. Think it through. All I'm donig is paraphrasing what you say

Have you ever heard the phrase "have your cake and eat it too" or "between a rock and a hard place" or "a lose-lose proposition"? Any of those ring a bell? Obviously, you are entitled to your enlightened opinion. The fact of the matter is that sometimes you can't have your cake and it eat too. For example, I'd like to see the world, too. If I was FORCED to see the world for whatever reason (job shipped me out, for example) it would be an easier decision because no choice would be involved.

Quoted: blue] Nope, I've made a wagon load of mistakes, and am sure that I'll make more. But... I take full and unmitigated responsibility for my actions, including my mistakes. I don't want anyone to "force" me into doing what I want so I can rationalize away the consequences of my actions. I'm sorry that you feel it's a "nasty little insult", but wanting the goverment to take responsibility for your life and for difficult decisions does indeed appear to be a lack of fortitude to me. How would you characterize it? Do you honestly think it's GOOD to want the goverment to make the difficult decisions in your life for you?

Oh boy... so are you implying that I don't take responsibility for my actions? Once again, an unfounded assumption about me, whom you've not bothered to learn anything about. I don't just "feel" that your comment boiled down to a personal attack (insult), it did. Of course, my English isn't all that good. If not an insult, what does it mean when one stranger says to another that they are lacking in fortitude? Is that a compliment? Was that a constructive observation? Or...was it simply a hack at somebody you've never met? hmm, I'm just too slow to get my mind around that one. Has everyone ever told you "if you can't say anything nice, keep your mouth shut"? What purpose does your remark serve? Were you trying to motivate me? Trying to make yourself feel better about yourself? What's the goal other than to try to knock someone down a notch. You could have kept your personal feelings about me to yourself. If you have issues with me and the way I run my life, you ought to come take it up in person instead of launching electronic insults from relative anonymity, my fortitude expert.

Quoted: I responded directly to your post, and limited my response to the contents of your post. You catagoricially stated that you wished the goverment would draft you so you could serve without having to take responsibility for the consequences of doing so. I replied only to that statement. The fact that you read my reply as a condemnation of your whole life says a lot about how you feel.

Responded directly? Really? I don't recall inviting personal attacks. In any case, as I predicted, your failure to know shit about me has caused you to retreat to the few lines of text in my post. Apparently, I am defined by the language used in a text posting and there is no dimension, depth or consideration behind any of that language. My whole being is defined by the single post and that language is your shield against my accusation that you don't know shit about me or what I do or what responsibilities I do have. I hope it DOES say a lot about what I feel. In case we aren't on the same wavelength, I'm pissed off because nobody can say shit without some knoe-it-all telling them how their way is infinitely inferior.... no good advice or constructive words of wisdom... just..."this is what's wrong with you." How incredibly helpful and insightful.

Quoted: So, my unfounded assumption was correct then? Or it...wasn't? Guess I'm missing your point there. My "assumption" was based on your statement "how much crap could I possibly get from those close to me if I complied with a draft?". I guess I simply don't see it as unfounded or an assumption, rather a paraphrasing of your statement.

Insofar as your assumption was that somehow what some unidentified individuals might think something and that therefore, solely on the basis of those potential thoughts, I base my decisions, you were dead wrong....but what do I know...you're the courageous guy here telling me how it is.

Quoted: Absolutely true. I recently passed up an oppertunity to work as a contract medic overseas [Edit / clarification; An oppertunity to apply fr such a position] because I have kids, stable jobs, a wife and a mortgage. The thing is, I really don't wish that someone would "force" me to go so I could dodge out on those responsibilities without feeling guilty. By your own statement, you do

Please oh please post that quote.... that's YOUR interpretation of a few lousy lines of text. You didn't want the position? You didn't feel conflicted? You never feel conflicted? Must be nice. No wonder why I have a hard time taking responsibility for some things. Unlike you, apparently, I am sometimes left with two poor choices. It's a bear to have two bad choices, and even worse when you mistakenly pick the worse of the two. It's nice, just once in a while, not to be the one who made a decision that turned out to be costly.

Quoted: Listen to this carefully: Wanting the goverment to make difficult decisions regarding your personal life so you don't have to is bad. That is the grand sum of my point here.

Then why the fuck didn't you just say that? Why did you have to get personal? Huh? What's the excuse? There's no reason...instead, you make a bunch of assumptions, don't bother to ask any questions or try to understand...don't bother to consider that the post is written in the context of my life and don't bother to consider that text posts are not the clearest most effective means of communication and then you blast me to show your superiority. Feeling good about yourself, smart guy?

Quoted: Nice not to have to take responsibility for your own life? Maybe, but the price is waaaay too high. In both of my jobs, I deal with people who refuse to take responsibility for their own lives, and with the goverment programs which allow them to do so. If you want to be like them, at least admit it. If you don't, then stop wishing aloud that the goverment would "force" you to do something that you believe would be abandonment of your family and responsibilities.

My own life? now you're just making shit up...there's nothing to that effect...don't just add words where you see fit and then attribute them to me....  talk about dodging the issues and setting up a straw man...still waiting to see an apology for the personal attack...none yet...just a lot of back end rationalization as to why personal attacks on others are ok... Why the fuck should I stop "whining"? Why don't you just ignore me if it's that hard on you.

The post was nothing more than an endorsement of the draft, an expression of a willingness to serve and an admiration of the Israeli system that builds such service into citizenship, making the whole concept one that is easier on the populace since it is a matter of course and people come to expect it. Nobody asks why you skipped school, left work, left your family, etc. when EVERYONE does it. The post was nothing more and nothing less. Any "wishing aloud" or "lack of fortitude" or "dodging of responsibility" that you see so glaringly in the post is a product of your own imagination. I can't understand why you felt so compelled to take a shot at me since you don't know me but if you want a piece, I'll send you my address and you can feel free to come straighten me out in person.

You may see me as a gutless irresponsible coward, but whatever the case, I don't feel the need to belittle others in order to justify my own existence.

Well, I am a local board member of the SSS where I live, and we had our first training session this past March for a special needs draft - specifically a medical skills draft. This is the first training I've had in my 9 years as a board member that wasn't just regarding general draft scenarios. There was also talk about, and articles specifically about, a special needs draft for computer and linguistics skills that were informally discussed during and after the training session.

Maybe I'm still old school, but if I and my wife were younger and the draft was expanded to include my wife, I'd have a real problem with that. I've never quibbled about serving myself, but it would take one hell of a national emergency before I'd be convinced that the draft should be extended to all females. It didn't happen in WWII with full mobilization for a two front war, so where's the justification for any of today's scenarios?

I think that the Government would be well advised to give the issue serious consideration before capriciously extending the draft to women. I really don't think that the government would want to deal with a second front at home when they come to take wives and mothers away from their families involuntarily.

Quoted: Quoted: We're all responsible for the decisions we make in life. Hell of a thought, huh? Personally, I don't WANT the goverment to absolve me of such responsibilities. You stated that you want to be drafted, but then you say that your leaving would be abandoning poeple who depend on you. So you're saying that you want an excuse to abandon your responsabilities. Think it through. All I'm donig is paraphrasing what you say Have you ever heard the phrase "have your cake and eat it too" or "between a rock and a hard place" or "a lose-lose proposition"? Any of those ring a bell? Obviously, you are entitled to your enlightened opinion. The fact of the matter is that sometimes you can't have your cake and it eat too. For example, I'd like to see the world, too. If I was FORCED to see the world for whatever reason (job shipped me out, for example) it would be an easier decision because no choice would be involved. Quoted: blue] Nope, I've made a wagon load of mistakes, and am sure that I'll make more. But... I take full and unmitigated responsibility for my actions, including my mistakes. I don't want anyone to "force" me into doing what I want so I can rationalize away the consequences of my actions. I'm sorry that you feel it's a "nasty little insult", but wanting the goverment to take responsibility for your life and for difficult decisions does indeed appear to be a lack of fortitude to me. How would you characterize it? Do you honestly think it's GOOD to want the goverment to make the difficult decisions in your life for you? Oh boy... so are you implying that I don't take responsibility for my actions? Once again, an unfounded assumption about me, whom you've not bothered to learn anything about. I'm not assuming anything, I'm responding to your direct statement " . I'd like to be drafted, frankly. Sure I could sign up... but then I have to deal with the backlash in my personal life." I never said you didn't take responsibility for your actions. I quoted your statement that you didn't WANT said responsibility. I don't just "feel" that your comment boiled down to a personal attack (insult), it did. Of course, my English isn't all that good. If not an insult, what does it mean when one stranger says to another that they are lacking in fortitude? Once again, how whould you characterize a wish that the goverment would absolve one of the personal responsibility of a difficult decision? Is that a compliment? Nope Was that a constructive observation? It could have been, if it had been taken as such. Unfortunately, you can't give insight to someone who lacks it. Or...was it simply a hack at somebody you've never met? hmm, I'm just too slow to get my mind around that one. Has everyone ever told you "if you can't say anything nice, keep your mouth shut"? I'm lucky enough that the people in my life offer me honest feedback, whether it's "your flys open" or "you have a chunk of snot hanging from your nose" or "dude, your messing up a great relationship. Pull your head out of your butt and knock it off". Negative feedback has done more for me in my life than positive feedback. What purpose does your remark serve? Were you trying to motivate me? Yup Trying to make yourself feel better about yourself? Nope. I don't compare myself to strangers in cyber space. What's the goal other than to try to knock someone down a notch. Bluntly, to try to convert someone from a desire to have the goverment run their lives over to a belief that such desires are a bad thing. You didn't answer my question; Do you honestly believe that wanting the goverment to make a decision like that so you don't have to is a GOOD thing? You could have kept your personal feelings about me to yourself. I don't have personal feelings about you. I addresses a statement you made on a public forum. As I pointed out in my last post, thats ALL I addressed. Your belief that I'm condeming everything you are is coming from YOU, not me. Go to my last post, and see ehat I defined as the grand sum of my statement. If you have issues with me and the way I run my life, you ought to come take it up in person instead of launching electronic insults from relative anonymity, my fortitude expert. Quoted: I responded directly to your post, and limited my response to the contents of your post. You catagoricially stated that you wished the goverment would draft you so you could serve without having to take responsibility for the consequences of doing so. I replied only to that statement. The fact that you read my reply as a condemnation of your whole life says a lot about how you feel.   Responded directly? Really? I don't recall inviting personal attacks. In any case, as I predicted, your failure to know shit about me has caused you to retreat to the few lines of text in my post. Apparently, I am defined by the language used in a text posting and there is no dimension, depth or consideration behind any of that language. My whole being is defined by the single post and that language is your shield against my accusation that you don't know shit about me or what I do or what responsibilities I do have. I hope it DOES say a lot about what I feel. In case we aren't on the same wavelength, I'm pissed off because nobody can say shit without some knoe-it-all telling them how their way is infinitely inferior.... no good advice or constructive words of wisdom... just..."this is what's wrong with you." How incredibly helpful and insightful. Once again, you posted a comment on a public forum, in which the general idea is for people to respond to others comments. I responded to your comment, and only your comment. I've already agreed that I don't know you. I've already repeatedly stated that I was addressing only the content of your post, and that I wann't commenting on any other aspect of your life or personality. Guy, it's the internet. It's a public discussion board. Calm down. Quoted: So, my unfounded assumption was correct then? Or it...wasn't? Guess I'm missing your point there. My "assumption" was based on your statement "how much crap could I possibly get from those close to me if I complied with a draft?". I guess I simply don't see it as unfounded or an assumption, rather a paraphrasing of your statement. Insofar as your assumption was that somehow what some unidentified individuals might think something and that therefore, solely on the basis of those potential thoughts, I base my decisions, you were dead wrong....but what do I know...you're the courageous guy here telling me how it is. Didn't you say "how much crap could I possibly get from those close to me if I complied with a draft?" and "Now that you've raised the issue, yes, I do care about what a select few people think."? Can you please show me where I said that I believed that there weren't other things weighing into your decision? Quoted: Absolutely true. I recently passed up an oppertunity to work as a contract medic overseas [Edit / clarification; An oppertunity to apply fr such a position] because I have kids, stable jobs, a wife and a mortgage. The thing is, I really don't wish that someone would "force" me to go so I could dodge out on those responsibilities without feeling guilty. By your own statement, you do Please oh please post that quote.... Here ya go...". I'd like to be drafted, frankly. Sure I could sign up... but then I have to deal with the backlash in my personal life"   And later, "Sometimes, it's nice to not have to take responsibility once in a while." that's YOUR interpretation of a few lousy lines of text. That is indeed, a literal interpretation of a few lines of text. Your absolutely right. You made a statement. I responded to that statement. Would you like to argue about what the meaning of "is" is next? You didn't want the position? You didn't feel conflicted? You never feel conflicted? Must be nice. No wonder why I have a hard time taking responsibility for some things. Unlike you, apparently, I am sometimes left with two poor choices. Yup, making difficult decisions sucks. My whole point is that it's still better than abdicating responsibility for your life. It's a bear to have two bad choices, and even worse when you mistakenly pick the worse of the two. Been there. Done that. Still won't surrender personal responsibility to avoid having to do it again. WHo do you think mapped my life out for me? Do you really believe that most of us don't make difficult decisions? It's nice, just once in a while, not to be the one who made a decision that turned out to be costly. That's what i love the most about my marrige. I have someone to consult with, someone to make such decisions with now. I still find the idea of wanting the goverment to do it for me to be stomach turning. Quoted: Listen to this carefully: Wanting the goverment to make difficult decisions regarding your personal life so you don't have to is bad. That is the grand sum of my point here. Then why the fuck didn't you just say that? Why did you have to get personal? Huh? Tell me, who do you think is reading more into a couple of lines of text? I simply asked (Not stated, asked) " You'd like the goverment to "make" you do what you lack the fortitude to do on your own?" Are you familiar with paraphrasing as a communication tool? Do you get this worked up every time someone appears to you to be misinterpeting a statement of yours? What's the excuse? There's no reason...instead, you make a bunch of assumptions, don't bother to ask any questions Go back and count how many of the sentences in my first post ended with question marks, and compare that to the number of sentences ending in periods. or try to understand...don't bother to consider that the post is written in the context of my life and don't bother to consider that text posts are not the clearest most effective means of communication and then you blast me to show your superiority. Feeling good about yourself, smart guy? Nope. Feeling crappy about getting dragged into it with someone who states that they wish the goverment would draft them so they didn't have to make that decision themselves, and then trys to defend that position with hyperbole and offended dignity. Quoted: Nice not to have to take responsibility for your own life? Maybe, but the price is waaaay too high. In both of my jobs, I deal with people who refuse to take responsibility for their own lives, and with the goverment programs which allow them to do so. If you want to be like them, at least admit it. If you don't, then stop wishing aloud that the goverment would "force" you to do something that you believe would be abandonment of your family and responsibilities. My own life? now you're just making shit up...there's nothing to that effect...don't just add words where you see fit and then attribute them to me.... Can I quote again here? " Sometimes, it's nice to not have to take responsibility once in a while." ". I'd like to be drafted, frankly. Sure I could sign up... but then I have to deal with the backlash in my personal life." WHose life are we talking about, if not yours? WHat are we talking about if we're not talking about making decisions in our lives? talk about dodging the issues and setting up a straw man...still waiting to see an apology for the personal attack...none yet...just a lot of back end rationalization as to why personal attacks on others are ok... Why the fuck should I stop "whining"? Speaking of adding words, why is "whining' in quotations" For that matter, where did the "lone wolf stone cold ninja killers" and "that unless you sign up for the military you are gutless shit who is good for nothing. " stuff come from?  Why don't you just ignore me if it's that hard on you. The post was nothing more than an endorsement of the draft, an expression of a willingness to serve and an admiration of the Israeli system that builds such service into citizenship, making the whole concept one that is easier on the populace since it is a matter of course and people come to expect it. And a stated desire that the goverment would draft you, preventing you from having to deal with the backlash signing up would cause in your personal life. Nobody asks why you skipped school, left work, left your family, etc. when EVERYONE does it. The post was nothing more and nothing less. Any "wishing aloud" or "lack of fortitude" or "dodging of responsibility" that you see so glaringly in the post is a product of your own imagination. Can I quote yet again? ". I'd like to be drafted, frankly. Sure I could sign up... but then I have to deal with the backlash in my personal life. " "Sometimes, it's nice to not have to take responsibility once in a while." I can't understand why you felt so compelled to take a shot at me since you don't know me but if you want a piece, I'll send you my address and you can feel free to come straighten me out in person. Want a piece, Dude, I already told you, I don't swing that way.  Are you really going to revert to internet threats? That's it then Sparky. You and me, behind the monkey bars at recess. You may see me as a gutless irresponsible coward, Are those more of those 'added words' that you aluded to earlier, or one of those assumptions that you keep accusing me of making? I never said any such thing. I simply expressed my view that wanting the goverment to make difficult personal decisions for you so you don't have to is a bad thing. but whatever the case, I don't feel the need to belittle others in order to justify my own existence.

Back to quoting again; "Fuck you and your small-minded assumptions" "Sorry I can't be as smart/strong/well-read/courageous/heroic/patriotic/[insert holier than thou adjectives here] as you" "As a matter of fact, fuck you".  Compare that to my simple question of "You'd like the goverment to "make" you do what you lack the fortitude to do on your own?" I haven't been belittling you, and haven't hurled the insults and profanity that you have. Please, prove me wrong. Quote my insults and profanity for me.

Would if you have been honorable discharged and age 31, completed your 8 year commitment. can they still draft you? I work in the IT field to.

So you're saying that you want an excuse to abandon your responsabilities.

I never said you didn't take responsibility for your actions.

Oh yeah, apparently I just fail to grasp the distinction between your positive assertion that I want an excuse to abandon my responsibility and the theme that I'm irresponsible. Sounds a lot like double talk to me.

Once again, how whould you characterize a wish that the goverment would absolve one of the personal responsibility of a difficult decision?

Still having a VERY hard time finding the word "wish" anywhere in my post. I would characterize the desire not to have any responsibilities as the human condition. The tenor of your most recent posts suggests that you too, might like to have less responsibility. Even if I'm imagining that, I'm sure that many others would agree that having less responsibilities would be a nice thing, once in a while.

It could have been, if it had been taken as such. Unfortunately, you can't give insight to someone who lacks it.

What the hell does "If it had been taken as such" mean? Talk about dodging responsibility. Instead of taking responsibility for what your words are likely to mean to someone, it's their fault if they didn't get it. That's rich.

I'm lucky enough that the people in my life offer me honest feedback, whether it's "your flys open" or "you have a chunk of snot hanging from your nose" or "dude, your messing up a great relationship. Pull your head out of your butt and knock it off". Negative feedback has done more for me in my life than positive feedback

Same here..... but last I checked, you're not what most people would consider a "person in my life." I'm only minimally more familiar with you than someone living in another solar system. Your remark might have been appropo were you my best pal, who knew even one genuine fact about me. Instead, you're playing armchair QB as a total stranger. Apparently, however, nobody ever told you to keep it to yourself. Your remark to the effect that you can't give someone insight should have stopped you. If you knew that it was impossible to provide someone lacking in fortitude about their own deficiencies, why bother? Why not keep your mouth shut? What were you hoping to accomplish? Apparently nothing constructive.

Bluntly, to try to convert someone from a desire to have the goverment run their lives over to a belief that such desires are a bad thing. You didn't answer my question; Do you honestly believe that wanting the goverment to make a decision like that so you don't have to is a GOOD thing?

I don't want the government to run my life. I have no desire to allow the government to run my life. This series of posts STRONGLY suggests that I don't like to be told how to think and act, as a general proposition. You have taken short, imprecise statements and distorted what you perceive as the driving ideas behind those statements and generalized the entire subject matter into oblivion. Just because one could postulate from my post that I want the government to spoon feed me my life, doesn't make it so. The generalizations are reflected in your question. If you asked whether or not I supported the institution of a draft, if necessary (let's not argue about the meaning of necessary, ok?) I would say yes. And if you asked if I would participate, I would say gladly. I HAVE made a decision. My decision is that, at this time in my life, I am not volunteering. Would I rather have a choice than not? yes. Would I be negatively impacted if I did not have a choice? almost certainly. Would I be positively impacted? potentially...obviously as humans, we have certain limitations that include not knowing what the future holds.

. I don't have personal feelings about you. I addresses a statement you made on a public forum. As I pointed out in my last post, thats ALL I addressed. Your belief that I'm condeming everything you are is coming from YOU, not me. Go to my last post, and see ehat I defined as the grand sum of my statement

Turnabout is fair play. Answer my question, now. If that was the sum of your post, then why did you feel it was necessary to take a shot at me? No need to get personal, period.

I responded directly to your post, and limited my response to the contents of your post. You catagoricially stated that you wished the goverment would draft you so you could serve without having to take responsibility for the consequences of doing so. I replied only to that statement. The fact that you read my reply as a condemnation of your whole life says a lot about how you feel.

I beg you to point out where I stated that you were condemning my "whole life." I never said "wished." I do think that military service would have something to offer me. I suppose it would have been more accurate to say that I desired an opportunity to serve but that the costs of doing so right now were too great to justify enlistment at this time. I guess this is one of the reasons that I'm so annoyed that people get personal here. I was simply posting a random thought/opinion and hadn't carefully drafted my statement as to totally preclude some personal attack out of nowhere. This has been a consistent problem on this board. It happens on so many threads to so many people.

I'd also like to point out that no matter how one gets into military service, there is no way to avoid "taking responsibility for the consequences." The nature of consequences is that they occur. If they didn't, they wouldn't be consequences. Believe it or not, I have to live with everything that happens in my life.

Once again, you posted a comment on a public forum, in which the general idea is for people to respond to others comments. I responded to your comment, and only your comment. I've already agreed that I don't know you. I've already repeatedly stated that I was addressing only the content of your post, and that I wann't commenting on any other aspect of your life or personality. Guy, it's the internet. It's a public discussion board. Calm down.

Hm, I should calm down and probably should never have bothered to express my opinion since it has done nothing to further discussion. I should probably just recognize that what I have to say has no validity. If I thought the above was remotely close to an apology, I'd be willing to accept it and chalk this up to experience.

Didn't you say "how much crap could I possibly get from those close to me if I complied with a draft?" and "Now that you've raised the issue, yes, I do care about what a select few people think."? Can you please show me where I said that I believed that there weren't other things weighing into your decision?

Since you didn't say, you couldn't have implied it? The fact that you are prepared to make assessments without asking whether or not there are other considerations suggests that you don't care about those other factors, presumably because you didn't need them to make your eagle-eye evalaution.

I don't have personal feelings about you. I addresses a statement you made on a public forum. As I pointed out in my last post, thats ALL I addressed. Your belief that I'm condeming everything you are is coming from YOU, not me. Go to my last post, and see ehat I defined as the grand sum of my statement

And tell me again, what your point has to do with my personal failings, specifically, my apparent lack of fortitude.

Here ya go...". I'd like to be drafted, frankly. Sure I could sign up... but then I have to deal with the backlash in my personal life" And later, "Sometimes, it's nice to not have to take responsibility once in a while." that's YOUR interpretation of a few lousy lines of text. That is indeed, a literal interpretation of a few lines of text. Your absolutely right. You made a statement. I responded to that statement. Would you like to argue about what the meaning of "is" is next?

No thanks on the meaning of "is".... I've had enough double talk, thanks. That's not an "interpretation," it's a statement.

The thing is, I really don't wish that someone would "force" me to go so I could dodge out on those responsibilities without feeling guilty. By your own statement, you do

THIS is an interpretation. This is your interpretation, not mine. I have not suggested or stated explicitly (as you have claimed) that I want to abandon people at home. That is the precise difficulty, my conflicting desires. Have you never had conflicting desires, or worse still, mandates? I think most folks have. You have generalized and warped my statements to mean far beyond what is contained in the text.

Yup, making difficult decisions sucks. My whole point is that it's still better than abdicating responsibility for your life.

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't recall my post saying anything about an intent to abdicate all responsibility in my life. My last post makes clear ( I thought) what the purpose of my post was. An expression of limited endorsement of certain ideas or values. You're argument is akin to suggesting that anyone who supports the draft thinks that the military should come take you away in the dead of night at gunpoint and shoot you if you refuse. I'm amazed at all the things I have apparently communicated in my barely noticeable, short post when I intended very little.

Been there. Done that. Still won't surrender personal responsibility to avoid having to do it again. WHo do you think mapped my life out for me? Do you really believe that most of us don't make difficult decisions?

Hope you're not seeking a medal. It's a fact of life. What I do believe is that most people pass the buck, particularly when they've made a difficult decision that turned out to be wrong. It's my opinion that most people LOVE to make ALL the decisions...they just refuse to take credit for the poorly made ones.

.... Can I quote again here? " Sometimes, it's nice to not have to take responsibility once in a while." ". I'd like to be drafted, frankly. Sure I could sign up... but then I have to deal with the backlash in my personal life." WHose life are we talking about, if not yours? WHat are we talking about if we're not talking about making decisions in our lives?

Sure quote all you like... run them together... better yet... just quote one word at a time and put all the words together until they mean what you'd like them to mean.... There's a significant difference between not taking responsibility for one's choices in life and not being opposed to not having to take responsibility for some of the things that happen to a person. Your sentence was "Nice not to have to take responsibility for your own life?" This statement is a far cry from anything that was said and is a total distortion of the entire substance of this discussion. If you want to argue, that's fine but don't play semantics. That I desire to not be responsible for my own life was never said and never implied. Any assertion to the contrary is ridiculous.

Speaking of adding words, why is "whining' in quotations" For that matter, where did the "lone wolf stone cold ninja killers" and "that unless you sign up for the military you are gutless shit who is good for nothing. " stuff come from?

What does why whining is in quotes have to do with anything. YOu characterized my post as whining. I certainly was not going to adopt your characterization but I did want to address it. That's why? any more questions? It was a word that you did in fact use so I'm not sure why it's being raised in a discussion about "adding words" (you used that phrase too, so don't ask about the quotes). While you never used those other words, I never attributed them to you did I? I didn't not accuse you of making that assessment nor did I quote you or say "you said" as your posts have tended to do, in my view, quite erroneously.

And a stated desire that the goverment would draft you, preventing you from having to deal with the backlash signing up would cause in your personal life.

Oh yes... do it again... retreat into some out of context statement with no background that was casually posted and not expected to draw any serious response, much less personal attack. You've got me... that justifies anything you could say about me, doesn't it? It must mean that you're right and that I have no fortitude.

Want a piece, Dude, I already told you, I don't swing that way.  Are you really going to revert to internet threats? That's it then Sparky. You and me, behind the monkey bars at recess.

What are you trolling for a date? This is your second reference to homosexuality. Talk about the monkey bars...

? I never said any such thing. I simply expressed my view that wanting the goverment to make difficult personal decisions for you so you don't have to is a bad thing

If that was really all, I would have agreed with you.

Compare that to my simple question of "You'd like the goverment to "make" you do what you lack the fortitude to do on your own?" I haven't been belittling you, and haven't hurled the insults and profanity that you have. Please, prove me wrong. Quote my insults and profanity for me.

I haven't accused you of profanity and wouldn't care because it doesn't bother me. A "profane" word is the same as any other word with a similar meaning except that it tends to convey more emotion. Sorry if I have exposed you to something that hurts or frightens you.

As to the insults, are you now at long last, attempting to correct my (apparent misinterpretation) interpretation that your foritude remark was a rhetorical question that was designed as a personal stab? Any reason you didn't "correct" me earlier? Your posts are full of rhetorical questions that are really posited as declaratory statements. Can you really deny that with a straight face? The placing of a question mark at the endo f a string of words does not automatically a question make.

Quoted: So you're saying that you want an excuse to abandon your responsabilities. I never said you didn't take responsibility for your actions. Oh yeah, apparently I just fail to grasp the distinction between your positive assertion that I want an excuse to abandon my responsibility and the theme that I'm irresponsible. Sounds a lot like double talk to me. There is a difference between a desire and an act. You state that you "want" to be drafted. You also state that you believe you would be abandoning responsibilities if you chose to or were forced to leave home to serve. I know nothing about how you actually answer the responsibilities in your life. I simply addressed your statement that you "wanted" to be made to do something that woul include abandoning other responsibilities. Once again, how whould you characterize a wish that the goverment would absolve one of the personal responsibility of a difficult decision? Still having a VERY hard time finding the word "wish"  anywhere in my post. "want" and "wish" are often used synonoms. If it offends you this much though, please allow me to correct "wish' with "want". I would characterize the desire not to have any responsibilities as the human condition. I'd charctarize it as immaturity. The tenor of your most recent posts suggests that you too, might like to have less responsibility. Less self-responsibility? Nope. Not at all. I am tired of taking care of others who refuse to take care of themselves, but since it's my bread and butter, I can't complain too much.  Even if I'm imagining that, I'm sure that many others would agree that having less responsibilities would be a nice thing, once in a while. I would be dismayed to learn that most people want less self-responsibility. Although, people like Kennedy and feinstein do indeed want to take self-responsibility away from people, and everything from out Elementary schools to our court systems are deemphasizing the concept of self responsibility, so you might be right. All these pesky responsibilities do get in the way. Why, did you know that by having a firearm, I'm taking a huge responsibility in how it's stored, used, etc? Maybe Feinstein's right. If we go along with her, it's one less responsibility we'd have to face. It could have been, if it had been taken as such. Unfortunately, you can't give insight to someone who lacks it. What the hell does "If it had been taken as such" mean? Talk about dodging responsibility. Instead of taking responsibility for what your words are likely to mean to someone, it's their fault if they didn't get it. That's rich. Dodging responsibility? Nope. I stand by my words. You made a statement. I paraphrased it back. Instead of saying "wow, what I said could be taken that way", you decided to be insulted. I'm lucky enough that the people in my life offer me honest feedback, whether it's "your flys open" or "you have a chunk of snot hanging from your nose" or "dude, your messing up a great relationship. Pull your head out of your butt and knock it off". Negative feedback has done more for me in my life than positive feedback Same here..... but last I checked, you're not what most people would consider a "person in my life." I'm only minimally more familiar with you than someone living in another solar system. Your remark might have been appropo were you my best pal, who knew even one genuine fact about me. Instead, you're playing armchair QB as a total stranger. Apparently, however, nobody ever told you to keep it to yourself. Your remark to the effect that you can't give someone insight should have stopped you. If you knew that it was impossible to provide someone lacking in fortitude about their own deficiencies, why bother? Why not keep your mouth shut? What were you hoping to accomplish? Apparently nothing constructive. Guy, did I tap your phone and make comments on your conversation? Were you talking with a friend in a restaruant when I butted into your conversation? Or did you post your comments on a PUBLIC DISCUSSION BOARD of which I'm a member? Are you guninely getting pissed that someone responded to a comment you made in a public forum? If you don't want AR-15.com members responding to your thoughts, don't post them on AR-15.com. Bluntly, to try to convert someone from a desire to have the goverment run their lives over to a belief that such desires are a bad thing. You didn't answer my question; Do you honestly believe that wanting the goverment to make a decision like that so you don't have to is a GOOD thing? I don't want the government to run my life. By your earlier statement, you want them to draft you. If you're drafted, they will be running your life for the duration of your service. I have no desire to allow the government to run my life. See my last comment This series of posts STRONGLY suggests that I don't like to be told how to think and act, as a general proposition. It's a good thing you're not active duty then. That's pretty much the idea, at least the 'act' part. You have taken short, imprecise statements and distorted what you perceive as the driving ideas behind those statements and generalized the entire subject matter into oblivion. I took a short, fairly precise statment, and paraphrased it back to the originator. Instead, or at least as wel as, expounding on it, he took my response as a verbal attack, assumed I was condeming his whole life and life style, and responded accordingly. Since then, I have stated multiple times that I wasn't commenting on anything other than his statement. However, he keeps expanding on the theme in an attempt to villify what I'm saying in order to make defending his position easier. Just because one could postulate from my post that I want the government to spoon feed me my life, doesn't make it so. The generalizations are reflected in your question. If you asked whether or not I supported the institution of a draft, if necessary (let's not argue about the meaning of necessary, ok?) I would say yes. And if you asked if I would participate, I would say gladly. I HAVE made a decision. My decision is that, at this time in my life, I am not volunteering. Would I rather have a choice than not? yes. Would I be negatively impacted if I did not have a choice? almost certainly. Would I be positively impacted? potentially...obviously as humans, we have certain limitations that include not knowing what the future holds. . I don't have personal feelings about you. I addresses a statement you made on a public forum. As I pointed out in my last post, thats ALL I addressed. Your belief that I'm condeming everything you are is coming from YOU, not me. Go to my last post, and see ehat I defined as the grand sum of my statement Turnabout is fair play. Answer my question, now. If that was the sum of your post, then why did you feel it was necessary to take a shot at me? No need to get personal, period. Ahh, the crux of the matter. You stated that you wanted the goverment to draft you, so you could serve without enduring the backlash in your personal life. I subsequently responded that wanting the goverment to "make" you do something you would otherwise not do seemed to me to reflect a lack of fortitude. You subsequently put your statement into a broader context, and I expounded on my views. But, when push comes to shove, you DID say that you wanted the goverment to "make" you serve. Taking that statement, and that statement alone, don't you feel that it communicates an unwillingness to do something voluntarily and a desire to have that free will removed? You can cal that whatever you want. I find the idea repugnant. I responded directly to your post, and limited my response to the contents of your post. You catagoricially stated that you wished the goverment would draft you so you could serve without having to take responsibility for the consequences of doing so. I replied only to that statement. The fact that you read my reply as a condemnation of your whole life says a lot about how you feel. I beg you to point out where I stated that you were condemning my "whole life." I never said "wished." No, you said "wanted" rather than "wished". I do think that military service would have something to offer me. I suppose it would have been more accurate to say that I desired an opportunity to serve but that the costs of doing so right now were too great to justify enlistment at this time. Sounds like a calm, rational assessment of your situation. It also has an entirely different meaning than your initial post. I guess this is one of the reasons that I'm so annoyed that people get personal here. I was simply posting a random thought/opinion and hadn't carefully drafted my statement as to totally preclude some personal attack out of nowhere. This has been a consistent problem on this board. It happens on so many threads to so many people. I have to recognize that I spend my life around firefighters and paramedics. That exacerbates my habit of being very blunt in my opinions. We aren't a particularly sensitive or politically correct group, and don't watch Oprah much. I'm also sensatized to the subject of personal responsibility and freedoms, from both of my jobs.  If you feel I was too blunt, I sincerely apologize. While I honestly don't construe my statement as a personal attack, you clearly do. Truth be told, we appear to have similar views overall. I'd also like to point out that no matter how one gets into military service, there is no way to avoid "taking responsibility for the consequences." The nature of consequences is that they occur. If they didn't, they wouldn't be consequences. Believe it or not, I have to live with everything that happens in my life. You and I both know people who don't take responsibility for the choices they make. Unfortunately, as anyone who has served in the military can attest, they exist in that environment too. One example that comes easily to mind is the reservist physician who made her way through medical school on goverment money, then refused to deploy during Gulf-1. Much to the dismay of many, she was given a general discharge, upgraded to honorable a few years later. She catagorically stated that she enlisted to get through school, and always intended to refuse to deploy if a war broke out. Once again, you posted a comment on a public forum, in which the general idea is for people to respond to others comments. I responded to your comment, and only your comment. I've already agreed that I don't know you. I've already repeatedly stated that I was addressing only the content of your post, and that I wann't commenting on any other aspect of your life or personality. Guy, it's the internet. It's a public discussion board. Calm down. Hm, I should calm down and probably should never have bothered to express my opinion since it has done nothing to further discussion. I should probably just recognize that what I have to say has no validity. If I thought the above was remotely close to an apology, I'd be willing to accept it and chalk this up to experience. If I'd meant it as an apology, I would have phrased it in the same way I did the apology above. In the words of my lifting buddy, "less oprah, more Arnold". If you don't learn MORE from dissenting opinions than you do from agreeing ones, then you'll find yourself not learning much. Again, I'm sorry you found this exchange to be emotionally difficult. Didn't you say "how much crap could I possibly get from those close to me if I complied with a draft?" and "Now that you've raised the issue, yes, I do care about what a select few people think."? Can you please show me where I said that I believed that there weren't other things weighing into your decision? Since you didn't say, you couldn't have implied it? The fact that you are prepared to make assessments without asking whether or not there are other considerations suggests that you don't care about those other factors, presumably because you didn't need them to make your eagle-eye evalaution. Ahh, the difference between an implication and an assumption is a blurry one, isn't it? We make assessments on limited data on an almost constant basis. However, paraphrasing is a great way to find out more about what the other person is trying to say. I don't have personal feelings about you. I addresses a statement you made on a public forum. As I pointed out in my last post, thats ALL I addressed. Your belief that I'm condeming everything you are is coming from YOU, not me. Go to my last post, and see ehat I defined as the grand sum of my statement And tell me again, what your point has to do with my personal failings, specifically, my apparent lack of fortitude. I addresed this issue above. Once again, and try to follow along here, I'm not addressing your personal failings. Other than your desire to have sex with me, I have no idea what your personal failings are. I addressed your stated "want" (must avoid the wish word) to be drafted in contrast to your unwilingness (for apparently entirely appropriate reasons) to enlist. Take two steps back and think about what you said in your first post. Yes, you've made it clear since that it didn't accurately reflect what you meant, but honestly think about what you said. Was my response really all that far out in left field? Honestly, if I hadn't responded, I would have walked away thinking you were a little wanker who wasn't able to nut up enough to walk into the recruiters. These exchanges have shown me that isn't the case. Seems like a useful exchange to me. Here ya go...". I'd like to be drafted, frankly. Sure I could sign up... but then I have to deal with the backlash in my personal life" And later, "Sometimes, it's nice to not have to take responsibility once in a while." that's YOUR interpretation of a few lousy lines of text. That is indeed, a literal interpretation of a few lines of text. Your absolutely right. You made a statement. I responded to that statement. Would you like to argue about what the meaning of "is" is next? No thanks on the meaning of "is".... I've had enough double talk, thanks. That's not an "interpretation," it's a statement. Do you know what 'literal interpretation' means? I took your statement at face value. The thing is, I really don't wish that someone would "force" me to go so I could dodge out on those responsibilities without feeling guilty. By your own statement, you do THIS is an interpretation. This is your interpretation, not mine. I have not suggested or stated explicitly (as you have claimed) that I want to abandon people at home. That is the precise difficulty, my conflicting desires. Have you never had conflicting desires, or worse still, mandates? I think most folks have. You have generalized and warped my statements to mean far beyond what is contained in the text. Dude, read that last paragraph. If you don't desire to do one of the things, how can you have conflicting desires? I have conflicting desires and even mandates (Spider Robinson used the word "antinomy", defining it as being faced with two contradictory and equally necessary choices at the same time. ) I really, honestly don't have any problem whatsoever with the idea that such situations are frustrating, maddening, etc. I simply find "wanting" the goverment to make that type of decision for the individual to be abhorrent. That's what your first post said, that's what my first post was in response to. Yup, making difficult decisions sucks. My whole point is that it's still better than abdicating responsibility for your life. I agree wholeheartedly. I don't recall my post saying anything about an intent to abdicate all responsibility in my life. nope, not an intent, sinply a "want" (Must'nt use the "wish" word)My last post makes clear ( I thought) what the purpose of my post was. An expression of limited endorsement of certain ideas or values. You're argument is akin to suggesting that anyone who supports the draft thinks that the military should come take you away in the dead of night at gunpoint and shoot you if you refuse. I'm amazed at all the things I have apparently communicated in my barely noticeable, short post when I intended very little. My response was never about the draft. I haven't sorted out my mixed feelings about compulsery service vs responsibility to society. My post addressed only your statemetn in which you said you wanted to be drafted, as it would let you avoid the backlash of enlisting. Your last post did indeed make what you meant a little clearer. You still have me defending my original post though. Been there. Done that. Still won't surrender personal responsibility to avoid having to do it again. WHo do you think mapped my life out for me? Do you really believe that most of us don't make difficult decisions? Hope you're not seeking a medal. It's a fact of life. ding ding ding. That's my point. What I do believe is that most people pass the buck, particularly when they've made a difficult decision that turned out to be wrong. It's my opinion that most people LOVE to make ALL the decisions...they just refuse to take credit for the poorly made ones. Yup, absolutely. That's why I tend to speak up when I hear people saying things like 'I wish the goverment would make this decision for me'. .... Can I quote again here? " Sometimes, it's nice to not have to take responsibility once in a while." ". I'd like to be drafted, frankly. Sure I could sign up... but then I have to deal with the backlash in my personal life." WHose life are we talking about, if not yours? WHat are we talking about if we're not talking about making decisions in our lives? Sure quote all you like... run them together... better yet... just quote one word at a time and put all the words together until they mean what you'd like them to mean.... There's a significant difference between not taking responsibility for one's choices in life and not being opposed to not having to take responsibility for some of the things that happen to a person. Your sentence was "Nice not to have to take responsibility for your own life?" That was a direct, cut and paste quote, Your statement, not mine. This statement is a far cry from anything that was said and is a total distortion of the entire substance of this discussion. If you want to argue, that's fine but don't play semantics. That I desire to not be responsible for my own life was never said and never implied. Any assertion to the contrary is ridiculous. If it was never said and never implied, how did it enter the conversation? But... Listen closely and hang on here, my posts were only   addressing   the   contents   of   your   posts   and   were   never   a   condemnation   of   you   or   your   life. You're working awfully hard to be offended here. Speaking of adding words, why is "whining' in quotations" For that matter, where did the "lone wolf stone cold ninja killers" and "that unless you sign up for the military you are gutless shit who is good for nothing. " stuff come from? What does why whining is in quotes have to do with anything. YOu characterized my post as whining. Where? when?I certainly was not going to adopt your characterization but I did want to address it. That's why? any more questions? It was a word that you did in fact use so I'm not sure why it's being raised in a discussion about "adding words" (you used that phrase too, so don't ask about the quotes). While you never used those other words, I never attributed them to you did I? by implication, yes. I didn't not accuse you of making that assessment nor did I quote you or say "you said" as your posts have tended to do, in my view, quite erroneously. And a stated desire that the goverment would draft you, preventing you from having to deal with the backlash signing up would cause in your personal life. Oh yes... do it again... retreat into some out of context statement with no background that was casually posted and not expected to draw any serious response, much less personal attack. You've got me... that justifies anything you could say about me, doesn't it? It must mean that you're right and that I have no fortitude. Want a piece, Dude, I already told you, I don't swing that way.  Are you really going to revert to internet threats? That's it then Sparky. You and me, behind the monkey bars at recess. What are you trolling for a date? This is your second reference to homosexuality. Talk about the monkey bars... It's my second response to your sexually explicit directive. ? I never said any such thing. I simply expressed my view that wanting the goverment to make difficult personal decisions for you so you don't have to is a bad thing If that was really all, I would have agreed with you. Compare that to my simple question of "You'd like the goverment to "make" you do what you lack the fortitude to do on your own?" I haven't been belittling you, and haven't hurled the insults and profanity that you have. Please, prove me wrong. Quote my insults and profanity for me. I haven't accused you of profanity and wouldn't care because it doesn't bother me. A "profane" word is the same as any other word with a similar meaning except that it tends to convey more emotion. Sorry if I have exposed you to something that hurts or frightens you. Ahh, so 'fuck you' and 'go fuck yourself' aren't insults, but "lacking fortitude" is. I see. As to the insults, are you now at long last, attempting to correct my (apparent misinterpretation) interpretation that your foritude remark was a rhetorical question that was designed as a personal stab? Any reason you didn't "correct" me earlier? Your posts are full of rhetorical questions that are really posited as declaratory statements. Can you really deny that with a straight face? The placing of a question mark at the endo f a string of words does not automatically a question make. Sorry, still working on the idea that 'fuck you' isn't an insult but "lacks intestinal fortitude" is.

You know, I love verbal fencing .My Father had a Jesuit education and my Mother was a Litigator by trade. But let's boil this down. You said you wanted the goverment to draft you so you could serve without having to face the backlash from enlisting. I said that wanting the goverment to force you to do something so you could avoid the consequence of making a decision to do so was a pussy move. You then said that wasn't what you meant. In light of your correction, everything else is moot.

Sorry you didn't get to serve. It was one of the best experiences of my life. Sorry I wasn't more sensative towards your feelings, it's pretty evident that I struck a nerve. I'm used to dealing with a different type of person.

Ok, well since there's a "let's boil this down" paragraph, I'm going to ignore the rest of the post because I frankly haven't got time for it.

At long last, you admit that you weren't asking any legitimate question but that you were calling me a pussy. Regardless of what I meant, that is uncalled for, end of story. That's the reason why I have gotten so bent out of shape. I'm not so retarded that I couldn't pick up on such a blatant shot. That having been said, I was less than nice to you but, particularly in light of your admission that the fortitude statement was a crack, I feel you deserved it.

I don't want to appear to be backpedaling here, either and I hope that you don't intend to suggest that with your post. If asked to serve, I would gladly do so. I think it would be a great opportunity. Yes, a part of me would like to serve and yes, being drafted would take a little of the personal responsibility out of the equation. I suppose, in some way it's a bit analogous to high school football for me. I wanted to get into shape but didn't know how and wasn't motivated enough to do it on my own. I signed up for football...did I enjoy running in 100 degree heat? did I enjoy frequent ass kickings? nope, not a bit and I rarely played. Despite all that, I reaped enormous physical benefits, knowledge and a good helping of self-discipline and motivation. I don't know about you, but I got plenty of flaws and I can't always accomplish things on my own. Sometimes it's nice to have someone push you. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's all I got right now.

I, like so many others, weigh my priorities and make the best decisions I can about what's right with what limited knowledge I have. I try to carefully consider the direction I take with my life as often as I can. You are damn right your poke at me strikes a nerve. Every time I'm not able to help someone that seeks my help, it creates a sore spot. The fact that I have taken your comment so seriously ought to suggest that I am not merely a sniveling baby but a conscientious person who has seriously thought about the implications of some of these things.

I'm sorry I got  bent out of shape instead of just closing the browser window and letting it go like I should have.

Yeah, have the military draft everyone upto the age of 35. That would free up a huge number of jobs for everyone else; thus, solving the unemployee problem.  

Quoted: I've always been enamored with the Israeli practice of compelling military service for able bodied individuals. I'd like to be drafted, frankly. Sure I could sign up... but then I have to deal with the backlash in my personal life. The draft would give me a way out... how much crap could I possibly get from those close to me if I complied with a draft? Explaining why I chose to voluntarily leave would be a lot more difficult.

I will be much more restrained than I could be based on your latest post.

You posted a comment on an internet forum, and then complained that people (in this case tommytrauma) commented on your post?

I don't think tommytrauma got personal at all. He didn't questions your mother's genus or species, the identity of your father; he didn't make an implication or assertion that you'd be perfect as a guest on "Springer", or invite you to copulate with yourself or him.

None of these. he simply said:

Quoted: You'd like the goverment to "make" you do what you lack the fortitude to do on your own?

Which must be the statement that you interpreted as a personal slam, err, excuse me, the "nasty little insult".

I think it was an observation made on a statement you posted that could have been used (if you had posted looking for direction, rather than simply voicing frustration at your current predicament) in a "constructive" manner. But it would be up to you how to interpret and use what was presented. You took it in an offensive light, and based your reply in that fashion. No matter what tt said from that point forward, you were viewing it as a personal attack.

I, tt, and probably most of the other folks on ARFCOM don't know you from the Angel Gabriel. We interpret who you are by the content and character of your posts - without body language, interpersonal positioning, eye contact, nature of handshake, enunciation, posture, and overall appearance, it's kinda all we got to go on! It's the nature of the beast.

There is also a BIG difference between wanting fewer responsibilities and wanting someone else to make them for you.

I remember living quite comfortably as a college age kid, paying Mom & Dad a token rent, and living like a king on $150/wk. No worries, no ulcers, more hair, less fat!

Nowdays, $150 is an average trip to the grocery store for me, my wife, and daughter.

Would I like fewer responsibilities? Sure! If only someone would:

pay off my mortagage or pay my rent

pay off my car note

pay my business insurance for 20+ years

pay me the $1500 to replace the tools that were stolen from my truck (and not covered by above insurance)

raise my Daughter (wake up in the middle of the night when I'd really rather sleep, hold her when she's sick, change her diaper... you know, the "icky" side of parenting)

Be my wife's partner (sounding board, foot rubber, occasional driver - personal stuff excerpted!)

I could sleep all night, not have my debts and not have to worry about anybody else or their problems!

The only problem with that attitude is, barring the appearance of a 2 garbage bags full of $100 bills, the alternative to a mortgage or rent is homelessness, or no choice in where you live.

Somebody else paying for the car decides what car you get to drive, when you get to drive, adn where you'll go

somebody else paying your business expenses tells you when and how and where to work, and what field you'll do it in.

Somebody else raising my Daughter takes away and shame I'd feel at her failures... but it also takes away any pride I'd have at her accomplishments.

And if somebody else is "there" for my wife, I kinda lose the "feel good" rights to our relationship, now don't I?

Sounds a lot like the old Soviet Union (the human race's largest and most catastrophic lab experiment in social studies) gone even more horribly awry! No thanks. Having little money and lots of worries sucks, but I'll take it for the little victories my family can share.

Quoted: I haven't accused you of profanity and wouldn't care because it doesn't bother me. A "profane" word is the same as any other word with a similar meaning except that it tends to convey more emotion.

From Dictionary.com -

Pro*fane [/size=3 adj. 1. Marked by contempt or irreverence for what is sacred. 2. Nonreligious in subject matter, form, or use; secular: sacred and profane music. 3. Not admitted into a body of secret knowledge or ritual; uninitiated. 4. Vulgar; coarse. tr.v. pro·faned, pro·fan·ing, pro·fanes 1. To treat with irreverence: profane the name of God. 2. To put to an improper, unworthy, or degrading use; abuse.

While the use of profanity certainly isn't new around here, it does tend to paint someone with a rather broad stroke as being either immature or incapable of "polite" conversation (especially as the initiant in an otherwise civil discussion). Remember the above quote about how others see you through your postings, since it is the only means we have? While "f*ck you" might be an appropriate greeting or comeuppance at a bowling alley or motorcycle shop (yes, I'm familiar with both, TYVM), I certainly doubt that it would be viewed as socially acceptable at the Chicago Lyric Opera, or on the "Op-Ed" pages of the Tribune or Sun Times. It's only somewhat more acceptable here, and generally, on a limited basis. Oh, no one (unless you're really excessive about it) will actually tell you to stop.

They'll just start ignoring your posts, expecting behavior akin to your previous.

If you were, in your own fashion, bemoaning your current situation rather than looking for a way to absolve yourself of personal resposibility (IN THIS ISSUE ONLY), then that's fine. (I understand your frustration - when the last round of activity "ramped up" I was on the phone to a combat disabled former EOD buddy of mine, talking about ways in despite my PMR; but with whose help I finally realized that I couldn't keep my house, my car, and food on the table, even on an O-1 salary, and I kind of like staying in one place, home-wise) But you might want to [categorize] your post next time (ie [rant][kvetch][moan]). Then people will let you express yourself without expectation of real analysis of the content of your post.

If that's not the case, I think you said it best.

Quoted: Has everyone ever told you "if you can't say anything nice, keep your mouth shut"?