Quoted: ... Why can't one be critical of this? IIRC, Israel would've been crushed in a certain year, in a certain war, if it hadn't been for US, British, and French (IIRC) planes flying airstrikes day and night while the US poured in airlift after airlift of military aid...  just a friendly reminder. ...

Wow, usually it's the Americans with such blind revisionist concepts of their importance in certain historical events.

Prior to 1973, US military support to Israel was very small, during the 1973 war, support only arrived after Sharon was right outside Cairo and the Egyptian Third Army was cut off from its supply lines on the other side of the Suez.

The Egyptians and Syrians were getting far more support from the Russians than we had ever given the Israelis.

Ironically, today the US gives more money and hardware to Egypt than we do Israel.  Nobody ever starts threads asking what we get in return for it. though.

I agree that Wikipedia is one of the best internet source for GOOD information - both "sides" contributing and arguing has resulted in pretty good compromise articles over the years, leaving facts in and taking emotional and sensationalist rhetoric out.

Quoted: The role of the United States in the end times has been on my mind since the 3rd grade.   How you look at the world depends on what you believe. Think about this our government years ago was briefed on the end times as per christian beliefs. Why would our government entertain religous beliefs? As stated in earlier posts we are generally a judeao-christian country and policy makers have personal beliefs that influence U.S. foreign policy, no?

I think that's why we have the Ark of the Covenant stored away in some .gov warehouse...just in case...

Quoted: do your own research.   I'm not hear to defend the state of israel, lets make that clear. (1)   But, if anyone doubts the relationship is two way, they simply DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH. (2)  period.   Which neatly coincides with the fact that anti-semitic movements ALWAYS start with the uneducated classes and spurred on by some populist elites, e.g. the jews did this, and not only that, but here's how it affects YOU, the people.  Whether it be Jews owning banks and taking the middle classes' money (European anti-semitism), Jews starting wars to take the elite's money (American pre-war anti-semitism, and even now we told bush to invade iraq, right?), Jews worldwide keeping the black muslim man oppressed and stunted (nation of islam anti-semitism) , the Elders of Zion keeping the arab every-man poor despite vast arab resources (post war Islamic anti-semitism), or Jews in a DC lobby sending our money to Israel (modern american anti-semitism). (3) I could give a rats ass about israel, I AM NOT A BIG FAN. (4)  But I see RIGHT through the anti-Israel crowd.

1.  You are not here to defend but you are here to judge? I am not sure I get you.

2. I dont recall anyone saying or even bringing a shadow of a doubt to the FACT that the relationship is two-way. However, two-way does not imply a fair trade or equal rewards. Just a thought. Yes, I know that the world isn't fair.

3. How is that anti-semitic? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it wasn't a big secret or anything that there is a significant Jewish lobby in DC that works to ensure the continued US support of Israel. Say that is anti-semitic?

4. Just a tad curious, so may I ask why not?

Quoted: some more numbers here, mostly in relations to the Palistinians, but these really don't matter as ANY rational person would prefer the Issraelis over the Pali's in ANY poll, contest, etc......

Agreed.

Quoted: Quoted: The role of the United States in the end times has been on my mind since the 3rd grade.   How you look at the world depends on what you believe. Think about this our government years ago was briefed on the end times as per christian beliefs. Why would our government entertain religous beliefs? As stated in earlier posts we are generally a judeao-christian country and policy makers have personal beliefs that influence U.S. foreign policy, no? There are layers of reasoning for the U.S. backing of Israel and yes I do believe they would turn on us to defend themselves.   I hope and pray we do not turn our backs on Israel, because if we do I'm afraid that could be the very reason why there is no mention of U.S. involvement in biblical prophecy - we simply aren't around or no longer are the super power we are today. What if the whole reason for the birth of our country was to fulfill bible prophecy. The defeat of nazi Germany and the stage set for the rebirth of Israel and a powerful country to support and help Israel defend itself. The expulsion of the jews from Spain? 1492? Who was one of the first to step foot in the new world? www.israzon.com/products/09/big/T-26_big.jpg I might be misreading this, but are you saying that there is even a remote possibilty that if the US were to stop supporting Israel, that alone would be sufficient to end the US's superpower-hood?

Tis a belief. Without my beliefs I see no reason for existance.  I see things one way as per the good book, vol 10 revision 1. It's a religious thing for me. Might not work for you, however that's the beauty of it.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl.gif www.virtualdissent.com/dissent/images/smilies/hitler.gif I'm no zionist, but I'm also not afraid to point out that 99.99999999999% of all israel haters hide behind other rhetoric acuse they aren't balls enough to admit they hate Jews.  Say you don't, fine - I simply don't believe you.  If you sincerely can't justify american support for israel, then you simply don't know enough about hte relationship. Then educate us, please, or are we unworthy? do your own research.   I'm not hear to defend the state of israel, lets make that clear.   But, if anyone doubts the relationship is two way, they simply DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH.  period.   Which neatly coincides with the fact that anti-semitic movements ALWAYS start with the uneducated classes and spurred on by some populist elites, e.g. the jews did this, and not only that, but here's how it affects YOU, the people.  Whether it be Jews owning banks and taking the middle classes' money (European anti-semitism), Jews starting wars to take the elite's money (American pre-war anti-semitism, and even now we told bush to invade iraq, right?), Jews worldwide keeping the black muslim man oppressed and stunted (nation of islam anti-semitism) , the Elders of Zion keeping the arab every-man poor despite vast arab resources (post war Islamic anti-semitism), or Jews in a DC lobby sending our money to Israel (modern american anti-semitism). I could give a rats ass about israel, I AM NOT A BIG FAN.  But I see RIGHT through the anti-Israel crowd.

I never questioned that the relationship WAS NOT two way.  I asked an honest question:  HOW?  I really don't know, which is why I started this thread.  The darn trolls on this board have everyone on the lookout for any potential argumentative topic, and it makes it hard to ask an honest question without someone thinking you are trying to instigate a crap storm.  

Trust me, bro, I am NOT trying to start anything besides a free history lesson for me (and others with open minds).  I want to be educated in the matter, and we have a lot of educated folks here.  

I am a born-again Christian that is looking for a few things to help me along:

1.  I want to know the political climate, and I do not.  Admittadly, I should, and I have already admitted my head was buried in the sand for far too long.

2.  I am curious to know what our relationship with the nation of Israel holds in prophecy.  That is, the situation with Iran as a nuclear power obviously proves America and Israel need each other as perhaps never before.  What say the biblical experts here from America, and what say the Jewish people?  From what I understand, same bible but with a little different approach in the interpretation.  

3.  I understood the Jewish people here in America to hold Israel as their doctrine - much like Mexican people are true to Catholicism.  Is this not right?  A stereotype?

See, I am seeking answers, bro.  I am here to learn, not to argue.  You obviously have a great knowledge and insight to my questions, so I'm asking you to please participate heavily in this dicussion.  If anyone starts slamming on you for being Jewish, I'll immediately contact staff and request that person's comments be removed - you don't even respond to them.

Just reply to those of us trying to understand through honest motivations.  

Quoted: do your own research.

Thanks for the help.

Quoted: OK, I have to ask:  why the regret?  Did I say something that will open a can of worms?  If I did, it was completely unknowingly.  I was trying to put the terminology into an analogy I could understand better. Granted, there are FAR more details to this, but I was just trying to get the jist, like learning to add before beginning algebra.   Why be afraid to be a part of the thread?  As long as everyone minds their P's and Q's, we can all learn something here.  Your posted definition is the first hint of the definition of Zionism I had been exposed to.

No, no, I just realized that I opened a can of worms by even thinking of mentioning that there are two sides to this and that there are more shades of grey here than black and white.

I am afraid because I don't want this thread to be locked, see someone banned, or worst case, end up being called a racist or something just because I question the actions of the state of Israel.

Zionism (and Anti-Zionism) is a very touchy and complex subject. That is why I too asked chapperjoe for some input. By the way, one of/the main (not sure which) Jewish group that opposes Israel is "Neturei Karta". I think I am going to check out their website again.

The orthordox Israel haters.... are they not opposed to Israel due the fact that their long awaited messiah is supposed to be involved in Israel as nation, so to them this secular state is all wrong and therefore they must oppose it.

Then we have criteria for being a "real" jew. The criteria all depends on whom your asking, Ultra-orthordox, reform jews, the state of Israel. All that makes a guy like me ask  someone, "So is your mother jewish also?

sorry not trying to go off topic... if you're Christian I would suggest if you haven't already reading/ listening to Hal Lindsey or Dave Hunt.

Quoted: Pro-Israel sentiment rises with increased knowledge -- 66 percent of those who follow international affairs ''very closely" support Israel, compared with 52 percent of those who don't pay close attention to foreign news.

I know some very educated people, who have LIVED in Israel, who would disagree with you.

I'm not saying they're right (I disagree with them on almost all things political), but I think telling people to do their own researc or quoting polls is a pretty poor way of answering an honest question.

Quoted: Quoted: I might be misreading this, but are you saying that there is even a remote possibilty that if the US were to stop supporting Israel, that alone would be sufficient to end the US's superpower-hood? Tis a belief. Without my beliefs I see no reason for existance.  I see things one way as per the good book, vol 10 revision 1. It's a religous thing for me. Might not work for you, however that's the beauty of it.

Fair enough. I have no quarrel here.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The role of the United States in the end times has been on my mind since the 3rd grade.   How you look at the world depends on what you believe. Think about this our government years ago was briefed on the end times as per christian beliefs. Why would our government entertain religous beliefs? As stated in earlier posts we are generally a judeao-christian country and policy makers have personal beliefs that influence U.S. foreign policy, no? There are layers of reasoning for the U.S. backing of Israel and yes I do believe they would turn on us to defend themselves.   I hope and pray we do not turn our backs on Israel, because if we do I'm afraid that could be the very reason why there is no mention of U.S. involvement in biblical prophecy - we simply aren't around or no longer are the super power we are today. What if the whole reason for the birth of our country was to fulfill bible prophecy. The defeat of nazi Germany and the stage set for the rebirth of Israel and a powerful country to support and help Israel defend itself. The expulsion of the jews from Spain? 1492? Who was one of the first to step foot in the new world? www.israzon.com/products/09/big/T-26_big.jpg I might be misreading this, but are you saying that there is even a remote possibilty that if the US were to stop supporting Israel, that alone would be sufficient to end the US's superpower-hood? Tis a belief. Without my beliefs I see no reason for existance.  I see things one way as per the good book, vol 10 revision 1. It's a religous thing for me. Might not work for you, however that's the beauty of it.

OK, I am a little confused.  Help me clear this up.

Israel is purported to be the victor at the end of what we understand to be WW3, right?  But there is the mention of the Eagle and the Bear (once insisted as the USSR and USA during the cold war), and supposedly we are the factors that instigates the holocaust - yes or no?  (Honest question, as mine always are).  

So, if Israel is to be the eventual victor, and the US turns our backs in support of them, we will fall with the other defeated nations after defeating a few of our own?  In other words, we'll be there at first, but in the end we really won't make a difference as we will be out of power?

Man, I have read and read and read Revelations, and I still cannot make heads or tails of any of this.  

Quoted: The orthordox Israel haters.... are they not opposed to Israel due the fact that their long awaited messiah is supposed to be involved in Israel as nation, so to them this secular state is all wrong and therefore they must oppose it. Then we have criteria for being a "real" jew. The criteria all depends on whom your asking, Ultra-orthordox, reform jews, the state of Israel. All that makes a guy like ask  someone, "So is your mother jewish also?

Despite the rather confusing grammar/formulations/whatever you want to call it, I agree. I think?

Mix

wwII partition
Zionism
Holocaust
Atomic weapons
Lobby and Spying in US
Arab hatred
Arab self-hatred
Arab envy
Creaky Arab govts.
Love/Hate in US for Israel
Love/Hate for Arab Oil
Love/Hate of Arabs for US $$$$
Love/Hate of Israel for US $$$$
Christian Muslim Holy Sites
fall of USSR, (lose a large tyrant, get a bunch of small ones)

Quoted: Quoted: Pro-Israel sentiment rises with increased knowledge -- 66 percent of those who follow international affairs ''very closely" support Israel, compared with 52 percent of those who don't pay close attention to foreign news. I know some very educated people, who have LIVED in Israel, who would disagree with you. I'm not saying they're right (I disagree with them on almost all things political), but I think telling people to do their own researc or quoting polls is a pretty poor way of answering an honest question.

While I am nowhere as knowledgable or educated as Zaphod, I will agree with him here, as his argument makes perfectly good sense to me.

Quoted: Mix wwII partition Zionism Holocaust Atomic weapons Lobby and Spying in US Arab hatred Arab self-hatred Arab envy Creaky Arab govts. Love/Hate in US for Israel Love/Hate for Arab Oil Love/Hate of Arabs for US $$$$ Love/Hate of Israel for US $$$$ Christian Muslim Holy Sites fall of USSR, (lose a large tyrant, get a bunch of small ones)

That's about 95% of it right there, IMO.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" Are you serious? The quote is legit, if that's what you are asking.  It's been used as propaganda by Muslim extemists like Qutb, Taymiyya, and OBL himself.   So, in essence, the quote means that they will see God only after they kill all the Jews?   For those Muslims who believe in their own version of the Apocolypse, yes.  The Age of Sacred Terror by Daniel Benjamin and Steven Simon does a good job explaining the history of Islam, and how Muslims in the age of the Caliphate actually PROTECTED Jews, until the Muslims lost a lot of their power and a more "fundamental" version of Islam became mainstream.  The rest, as they say, is history.

Yea, they "protected" the Jews the same way the mafia "protects" store owners - they made them pay the jizya, an opressive tax designed to coax them into becoming muslims.

Quoted: 3. How is that anti-semitic? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it wasn't a big secret or anything that there is a significant Jewish lobby in DC that works to ensure the continued US support of Israel. Say that is anti-semitic? 4. Just a tad curious, so may I ask why not?

3. if 69% of american favors a certain course of action, then THEY are the lobby.  AIPAC has nothing on the american voter in terms of influece.  Stating taht US policy towards israel is guided by the israel lobby is thus anti-semtic cuase it seeks to place 'blame' for the relationship on a bunch of Jews and israelis, when the 'blame' belongs to the 69% of american who support israel.

4. It's a judaism thing.  gets kinda dirty, very shiite-sunni kinda way.  to sum it up:

I'm a religious Jew.  

Herzl's STATED GOAL was to replace the TORAH (the jewish code of law and way of life) with the LAND as the central component of Judaism in a future Israel.  

He succeeded.  And now Israel is almost completely anti-religious - not secular, not ambivalent, not irrelgious, but ANTI-relgious-Judaism.  

Religious Jews know that there is NOTHING more improtant than the torah (well, human life yes, but the land of israel not even close) and if ANY religious Jew from all time up until the 1900's was asked whether they would rather live a persecuted miserable life with Torah or live peacefully in the land of Israel without the Torah, they would choose the harder life with the torah.

Some (okay msot) ultra-orthodox hassidim go too far and are ANTI-zionist but that's ridiculous.  As I said before, human life is more importnat that almost anything, and Jewish life is pbviously sacred to Jews.  Seeing as the State of Israel houses millions of Jews - religious or not - then you can't be a jewish anto-zionist as that places jews in danger.

So my position is that I love and pray for the jews in israel as well as that Israel, and the region, shoul see peace soon.  BUT unlike my zionist brethren, I do not pray for the governmnet or the state of israel.

In my humble opnion, the United States is FAR more tolerant and acccepting of religious judaism than israel is.  You'd be surprised how virulent the anti-religious establishment is in israel.  America, whether the libs like it or not, is a religious country and Israel is not.

There's more to this, e.g. zionists have basically rewritten history (zionists are THE original revisionists) to show hwo the state of israel is the first step to teh messiah, yada yada.   I'd say that less than 15% of Israelis observe the torah.  The messiah is NOT coming home to that.  sorry folks.

If I really feel like pissing off a rabid zionist (read: my family) I use my good ol' dependable line, the one that makes zionists recoil like a liberal seeing an assault weapon:

Hitler may have killed 6 million jewish bodies, but the State of Israel killed 6 million jewish souls.  

I can and have defended that statement to the point where they mumble something about 'you're crazy' and walk away looking at me like I'm crazy.  I'll say it again.  The state of israel has all but destroyed Judaism there.  

and that's why I'm not a big fan.

Quoted: ....

you do NOT want to be a 'protected minority' in an islamic state.

Quoted: Quoted: Mix wwII partition Zionism Holocaust Atomic weapons Lobby and Spying in US Arab hatred Arab self-hatred Arab envy Creaky Arab govts. Love/Hate in US for Israel Love/Hate for Arab Oil Love/Hate of Arabs for US $$$$ Love/Hate of Israel for US $$$$ Christian Muslim Holy Sites fall of USSR, (lose a large tyrant, get a bunch of small ones) That's about 95% of it right there, IMO.

So, is Israel a Palestinian nation?  Again, and as always, honest question.

What's the difference besides religion?

Teach me here people, that's why I am here.  I look at this like a free college history lesson, and I'm going to soak up all the information I can by asking lots of questions, so please be patient with me.  

Quoted: but I think telling people to do their own researc or quoting polls is a pretty poor way of answering an honest question.

I've never been good at answering questions, that's why I suggested everyone do their own research.  Anything I say will come off as slanted (even though I'm not a zionist, mind you)......

Quoted: While I am nowhere as knowledgable or educated as Zaphod, I will agree with him here, as his argument makes perfectly good sense to me.

You give me too much credit, I'm afraid.

I support Israel right now simply because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. On September 10th, 2001, I was on the verge of agreeing with the people I mentioned above (after all, they lived there, so they MUST know better, right?). All that changed on September 11th.

I also recognize that we have more in common with Israel culturally, historically, and politically, than we do with any Arab nation. Finally, I find it reprehensible that an entire region is hell-bent on destroying them simply out of jealousy.

All these things make my support for Israel pretty steadfast, but I can't lose sight of the fact that they're not angels.

So, I appreciated the original point of this thread, and came in to see if I could learn something.

Not much so far, except that some stereotypes of Jews are being played out, which is unfortunate.

Quoted: That's about 95% of it right there, IMO.

So, is Israel a Palestinian nation?  Again, and as always, honest question.


depends what you mean by Palestine.  The original Philistines were conquered by the incoming Jews in teh era of the Prophets, they stayed a little while, caused some trouble, stole the ark (BIIIIIG mistake) got their asses handed to them and seeing as they were a sea-going folk, settles on Crete.  so really the Cretens are the real Philistines, though I won't argue against the Palisteniens being cretens.

the name was just rejuvinated by the british (as it was by many conquerers).  pre-state there were palestinian jews and palestian arabs.  Jews took teh 48 deal, they didn't.  the palestinian jews became israelis, the palestinian arabs stayed palestinian arabs as they had no nation to call there own.

Quoted: Not much so far, except that some stereotypes of Jews are being played out, which is unfortunate.

a common and weak defense..........

Quoted: Herzl's STATED GOAL was to replace the TORAH (the jewish code of law and way of life) with the LAND as the central component of Judaism in a future Israel.   He succeeded.  And now Israel is almost completely anti-religious - not secular, not ambivalent, not irrelgious, but ANTI-relgious-Judaism. <snip> In my humble opnion, the United States is FAR more tolerant and acccepting of religious judaism than israel is.  You'd be surprised how virulent the anti-religious establishment is in israel.  America, whether the libs like it or not, is a religious country and Israel is not. <snip> I'll say it again.  The state of israel has all but destroyed Judaism there.

You serious?

Wow. First I've heard of that. That's awful!

How can that be?  I always thought the religion and the culture were so intermixed as to be inseperable?

Let me ask you this, could you give a quick rundown on the factions, as you see them? I'll admit to being very confused, and your post above has honestly floored me.

Please keep going. This stuff is amazing!

Quoted: Quoted: Not much so far, except that some stereotypes of Jews are being played out, which is unfortunate. a common and weak defense..........

I'll apologize, as you started giving better answers. You can't deny that your first ones were pretty "If you don't get it, you're stupid" in tone. After posting above, I was going back to specifically edit that entry, as it was obviously no longer true.

posting with baby in one arm is tough business

Quoted: posting with baby in one arm is tough business

Just bounce its head off the keyboard for the Space Bar and ENTER. Makes it easier!

Quoted:

at least we agree about the Simpson girl.  Wasn't she a nice Christian singer a while ago?  WTF?

Quoted: Quoted: While I am nowhere as knowledgable or educated as Zaphod, I will agree with him here, as his argument makes perfectly good sense to me. You give me too much credit, I'm afraid. I support Israel right now simply because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. On September 10th, 2001, I was on the verge of agreeing with the people I mentioned above (after all, they lived there, so they MUST know better, right?). All that changed on September 11th. I also recognize that we have more in common with Israel culturally, historically, and politically, than we do with any Arab nation. Finally, I find it reprehensible that an entire region is hell-bent on destroying them simply out of jealousy. All these things make my support for Israel pretty steadfast, but I can't lose sight of the fact that they're not angels. So, I appreciated the original point of this thread, and came in to see if I could learn something. Not much so far, except that some stereotypes of Jews are being played out, which is unfortunate.

Well, hang in there guy.  I knew there was a chance this thread could possibly turn to crap, but many people here know me as a nice person that asks honests questions; so my hope is that the standard nonsense of GD would stay away from this thread out of respect for a man (me) trying to better himself.  There are a lot of "know it all's" here, but there are also a LOT of people more than willing to entertain what they view as stupid questions and answer them as honestly as possible.  

If we can keep the bashing out of this, and stop any personal attacks, I think this thread could be extremely educational.  That's my hope, anyway.  

If chapperjoe doesn't get chased away by fools itching for an argument, I hope he will be one of those people that sees my questions as nothing more than honest inquiries and helps to learn me what Israel is all about.  better he help me than Google, IMO.  

Just hang in there, bro.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Not much so far, except that some stereotypes of Jews are being played out, which is unfortunate. a common and weak defense.......... I'll apologize, as you started giving better answers. You can't deny that your first ones were pretty "If you don't get it, you're stupid" in tone. After posting above, I was going back to specifically edit that entry, as it was obviously no longer true.

I hear you.  Like i said, I hate these arguments, but feel lik eif I don't chime in no one will, and I 'm a horrible person to do this, cause a) I clearly have an opnion on this already and b) I'm not a farking zionist!  can't one of them chime in!

Happy Easter you internet commando's. Or Passover. Palm sunday..whatever

I'm going to go watch this movie USHPIZIN i rented from blockbuster.

                                   

Quoted: Quoted: at least we agree about the Simpson girl.  Wasn't she a nice Christian singer a while ago?  WTF?

Who knows? She may even be one now. I try not to be too judgemental when it comes to people's relationships with Christ, as mine is far from perfect.

Once again and always, forgive me if I get antsy.  they were having similar conferences and discussions in Nuremberg in the early 30's, Spain and the Vatican at the turn of the last millenium, Moscow, Jedda, etc.  Never ends up well for the Jews, whether Israel is involved or not.

Remember that confererence to end racism that Condi boycotted.  you think that was mere anti-zionism?

really gets my goat.  Obvisouly, I'm not accusing anyone here of anything approaching anti-semitism.  Sorry if I came off that way.  it's just there are some in and leading this crowd that are too overt to ignore.

Quoted: Happy Easter you internet commando's. Or Passover. Palm sunday..whatever I'm going to go watch this movie USHPIZIN i rented from blockbuster.

I've heard about it, it's a religious flick, first of its kind actually - never saw it.  competely relgiious, production, cast, crew, etc.

Quoted: I hear you.  Like i said, I hate these arguments, but feel lik eif I don't chime in no one will, and I 'm a horrible person to do this, cause a) I clearly have an opnion on this already and b) I'm not a farking zionist!  can't one of them chime in!

Oh, hey, man! Sound off!

Your observation on the apparent separation between the state of Israel and the Hebrew faith is the FIRST eye-opening revelation I've heard about that region in a LONG time, and really opens up new doors to explain the mess over there. Hell, it may even explain the positions of the folks I mentioned above!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Not much so far, except that some stereotypes of Jews are being played out, which is unfortunate. a common and weak defense.......... I'll apologize, as you started giving better answers. You can't deny that your first ones were pretty "If you don't get it, you're stupid" in tone. After posting above, I was going back to specifically edit that entry, as it was obviously no longer true. I hear you.  Like i said, I hate these arguments, but feel lik eif I don't chime in no one will, and I 'm a horrible person to do this, cause a) I clearly have an opnion on this already and b) I'm not a farking zionist!  can't one of them chime in!

But your opinions are welcome, bro.

I am not here looking for information to pass judgement.  I am here looking for any information that will help me be better informed.  There is a huge difference.

Speak your peace.  It will not be used as ammo against you.  If a troll or basher shows up, I'll IM staff and ask them to remove their comments - just don't reply to them, and staff will clearly see we are using the site responsibly to be better people through knowledge.  They lock threads when the insults fly, not when one person tries to interrupt.

If people disagree with your views, that's fine.  But they had better do it respectfully and thoughtfully, or they'll have a few PM's.  

Quoted: Happy Easter you internet commando's. Or Passover. Palm sunday..whatever I'm going to go watch this movie USHPIZIN i rented from blockbuster.

Whatever you call it, Happy Easter to you, too, bro.  How old is the baby?  Might want to wait until the soft spot is hard before using it as a space bar pusher tool  

Quoted: Quoted: 3. How is that anti-semitic? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it wasn't a big secret or anything that there is a significant Jewish lobby in DC that works to ensure the continued US support of Israel. Say that is anti-semitic? 4. Just a tad curious, so may I ask why not? 3. if 69% of american favors a certain course of action, then THEY are the lobby.  AIPAC has nothing on the american voter in terms of influece.  Stating taht US policy towards israel is guided by the israel lobby is thus anti-semtic cuase it seeks to place 'blame' for the relationship on a bunch of Jews and israelis, when the 'blame' belongs to the 69% of american who support israel. 4. It's a judaism thing.  gets kinda dirty, very shiite-sunni kinda way.  to sum it up: I'm a religious Jew.   Herzl's STATED GOAL was to replace the TORAH (the jewish code of law and way of life) with the LAND as the central component of Judaism in a future Israel.   He succeeded.  And now Israel is almost completely anti-religious - not secular, not ambivalent, not irrelgious, but ANTI-relgious-Judaism.   Religious Jews know that there is NOTHING more improtant than the torah (well, human life yes, but the land of israel not even close) and if ANY religious Jew from all time up until the 1900's was asked whether they would rather live a persecuted miserable life with Torah or live peacefully in the land of Israel without the Torah, they would choose the harder life with the torah. Some (okay msot) ultra-orthodox hassidim go too far and are ANTI-zionist but that's ridiculous.  As I said before, human life is more importnat that almost anything, and Jewish life is pbviously sacred to Jews.  Seeing as the State of Israel houses millions of Jews - religious or not - then you can't be a jewish anto-zionist as that places jews in danger. So my position is that I love and pray for the jews in israel as well as that Israel, and the region, shoul see peace soon.  BUT unlike my zionist brethren, I do not pray for the governmnet or the state of israel. In my humble opnion, the United States is FAR more tolerant and acccepting of religious judaism than israel is.  You'd be surprised how virulent the anti-religious establishment is in israel.  America, whether the libs like it or not, is a religious country and Israel is not. There's more to this, e.g. zionists have basically rewritten history (zionists are THE original revisionists) to show hwo the state of israel is the first step to teh messiah, yada yada.   I'd say that less than 15% of Israelis observe the torah.  The messiah is NOT coming home to that.  sorry folks. If I really feel like pissing off a rabid zionist (read: my family) I use my good ol' dependable line, the one that makes zionists recoil like a liberal seeing an assault weapon: Hitler may have killed 6 million jewish bodies, but the State of Israel killed 6 million jewish souls.   I can and have defended that statement to the point where they mumble something about 'you're crazy' and walk away looking at me like I'm crazy.  I'll say it again.  The state of israel has all but destroyed Judaism there.   and that's why I'm not a big fan.

3. Fair enough. I didn't mean any offense, I just meant that a good lobby can help to raise public attention/awareness and thus can make that 69% support Israel. That's all.

4. Interesting. I always knew that things weren't all hunky dory between "real" Jews (Does anyone actually say that?) and the nation of Israel, a mostly, as I have always believe, secular state, but I never knew that things were quite as bad as you say. Very interesting. It certainly sheds new light on the reason reason many of the mostly religious settlers opposed the Gaza pullout so vehemently... It's sad to see a people "lose" their religion. I've seen it happen with Italy.

I like your conciseness and rather blunt honesty with the statement that I highlighted in green. I may be just a gentile, but I can very much respect your position and I understand full well why you feel the way you do. Thanks for the explanation.

Quoted: You serious? Wow. First I've heard of that. That's awful! How can that be?  I always thought the religion and the culture were so intermixed as to be inseperable? Let me ask you this, could you give a quick rundown on the factions, as you see them? I'll admit to being very confused, and your post above has honestly floored me. Please keep going. This stuff is amazing!

My reaction (partly) too! It is amazing stuff! Let me get out a notebook and pen and put on my reading glasses (just kidding, about the glasses that is).

The baby is almost 2 months now.  She's a blessing in so many ways.



This movie USHPIZIN is bringing out some emotion in me.

Quoted: Prior to 1973, US military support to Israel was very small, during the 1973 war, support only arrived after Sharon was right outside Cairo and the Egyptian Third Army was cut off from its supply lines on the other side of the Suez. The Egyptians and Syrians were getting far more support from the Russians than we had ever given the Israelis. Ironically, today the US gives more money and hardware to Egypt than we do Israel.  Nobody ever starts threads asking what we get in return for it. though.

I think this answer makes the most sense. We basically pay Israel not to get in the shit with the arabs. We also pay the arabs not to get in the shit with Israel. I guess the main reason is it would upset our oil supply if there is too much conflict in the area.

Quoted: www.israelmilitary.com/images/bigimg36874.jpg

ASSAULT WEAPONS IN CHURCHES!

CALL SARAH BRADY!

AAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!! {Zaphod runs and hides}

Everything you ever wanted to know about our relationship with Israel.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=455666&page=1

Quoted: Everything you ever wanted to know about our relationship with Israel. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=455666&page=1

that's the newest version of protocols of the elders of Zion.  Like him or not (as my rabbi said), Dershowitz iis on our side. When he heard that this emanted from HArvard he stayd up fro 48 hours writing a 40 page response that I heard is magnificent but haven't seen.

the good news is that harvard has REALLY distanced themselves from this document.
the better news was the timing.  The SAME WEEK this document came out purporting what I said above (israel lobby is harming america, basically), the SAME WEEK, a gallup poll came out showing the stronges tsupport for Israel EVER across this great country of ours.  69% means not only evangelicals, not only jews, but everyone except university pofessors and the die-hard american first Buchanazis overwhelmingly support not only ISrael versus her foes, but israel in general.  

There was simply no better course of action that could have happened.  No article, dershowitz or not, has the affect of that poll.  

It was a great moment for America in general and shows just how out of step the univeristy professors are with america.  And once again, not just middle america, or left or right.  this is almost ALL of america, since the rest of the percentage is don't care, negative or ambivalent, e.g. not split 69-31.

Quoted: Quoted: Everything you ever wanted to know about our relationship with Israel. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=455666&page=1 that's the newest version of protocols of the elders of Zion.  Like him or not (as my rabbi said), Dershowitz iis on our side. When he heard that this emanted from HArvard he stayd up fro 48 hours writing a 40 page response that I heard is magnificent but haven't seen. the good news is that harvard has REALLY distanced themselves from this document. the better news was the timing.  The SAME WEEK this document came out purporting what I said above (israel lobby is harming america, basically), the SAME WEEK, a gallup poll came out showing the stronges tsupport for Israel EVER across this great country of ours.  69% means not only evangelicals, not only jews, but everyone except university pofessors and the die-hard american first Buchanazis overwhelmingly support not only ISrael versus her foes, but israel in general.   There was simply no better course of action that could have happened.  No article, dershowitz or not, has the affect of that poll.   It was a great moment for America in general and shows just how out of step the univeristy professors are with america.  And once again, not just middle america, or left or right.  this is almost ALL of america, since the rest of the percentage is don't care, negative or ambivalent, e.g. not split 69-31.

And the anti-semite card has been played. Bravo!

You just called 31% of America (if your figures are even accurate) some sort of nazis. I think you are dillusional.

This document makes perfect and rational arguments, that you can't counter with anything but.... "duh... that's anti-semitic."

Quoted: Quoted: Prior to 1973, US military support to Israel was very small, during the 1973 war, support only arrived after Sharon was right outside Cairo and the Egyptian Third Army was cut off from its supply lines on the other side of the Suez. The Egyptians and Syrians were getting far more support from the Russians than we had ever given the Israelis. Ironically, today the US gives more money and hardware to Egypt than we do Israel.  Nobody ever starts threads asking what we get in return for it. though. I think this answer makes the most sense. We basically pay Israel not to get in the shit with the arabs. We also pay the arabs not to get in the shit with Israel. I guess the main reason is it would upset our oil supply if there is too much conflict in the area.

not gonna say that's not true.  And if so it's a fine use of our tax dollars.  paying for peace?  what's wrong with that.  especailly with the returns we get from ISrael (no one is saying its an equal return, but it IS nice.)...

especially the newest one. We are way beyond chicken wire now.  Think about it this way.  American funded research in israel resulted ina system that will save american soldiers lives.  Can you put a price on that?  (someone say israel is the reason we're in Iraq and reveal your true self)





don't get me started on egypt.  I think we'll have all that money soon when teh brotherhood wins either by population or ballot.  Mubarak is very tenuous and he's started to push his son into a succesor role, which mainstream egypt straight out WILL NOT accept.  Like the pali's, those peopl ejust want a fair ballot already, and the brotherhood will win and to tell you the truth, i think they'll play ball.  The only thing that keeps anyone in power in egypt is our money, and they will need it, plus they are not huge fans of hamas or al queda.  When zwahiri left to become #2, rahman kinda took over, then he left and the brotherhood went quasi-legit to get some votes.  nonetheless, I think there's gonna be a restructruring of that relationship soon.  Our money is either gonna go to goo duse, e.g. democracy promotion post-mubarak, or the brotherhood won't play ball and as a tarrorist group will be cut off.

Quoted: .... . And the anti-semite card has been played. Bravo! You just called 31% of America (if your figures are even accurate) some sort of nazis. I think you are dillusional. This document makes perfect and rational arguments, that you can't counter with anything but.... "duh... that's anti-semitic."

and you just showed how antisemitism starts with the uneducated.....

a)I called bachanan a nazi.  I have and will.  he's a populist anti-semite jew hating bastard.  he IS a nazi, he would be RIGHT home next to hitler.  he's a son of a bitch, a danger to jews and danger to america.  he is the archetype of intolerance and the inventor of your 'I'm not ani-semetic, cause you jsut played the anti-semitism card' tactic that even helen keller sees through.  I hope he dies a painful slow tortuous death and this country will be better off for it.

b) I specifically mentioned that the remaining 31% was not all anti-israel (since the rest of the percentage is don't care, negative or ambivalent, e.g. not split 69-31.)  Do you need pictures or a pie graph?  I thought that part was pretty clear.  Way to try twist my words though.

c) I said that there is no better argument that a poll that ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY disrpoves the hypothesis of the Mearshimer paper.  I stand by that statement.  Their 'points' notwithstanding, (the points ALWAYS make sense, its how you twist them to mate with YOUR point that's open to argument) their thesis is that the Israel lobby works against US interests.  The poll showed how US intersts are CLEARLY AND OVERWHELMINGLY aligned with the goals of the israel lobby and thus the israel lobby, while no doubt working in ISrael's interests, are in reality just carrying otu THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

(if your figures are even accurate)

those blue looking sentences on the clever-doohicky TV-looking thing in front of you are called hyperlinks.  they go to a realtively well known organization called 'gallup' who polls.  polling is when you ask people questions about how they feel.  you then tabulate.....


well, you get it.  If you don't, you just prove my point.  again.

and this is worth repeating in large print because it is unassailable, (that means that if one were to decide to argue against it, one would not be able to.  And if you're having trouble, 'decided' means to choose one way or another, and 'argue' means to fight or take the other side.  Sorry for the multi-syllabic words)  

c) I said that there is no better argument that a poll that ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY disrpoves the hypothesis of the Mearshimer paper. I stand by that statement. Their 'points' notwithstanding, (the points ALWAYS make sense, its how you twist them to mate with YOUR point that's open to argument) their thesis is that the Israel lobby works against US interests. The poll showed how US intersts are CLEARLY AND OVERWHELMINGLY aligned with the goals of the israel lobby and thus the israel lobby, while no doubt working in ISrael's interests, are in reality just carrying otu THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.