My only question is "why does (did) the SWAT units wait until everything is over?" I thought the idea of the SWAT units are to END the problem at hand, not wait until it's over and clean up? If that were the case, regular beat cops could do that.

Not a flame, not "armchair quarterbacking", just want to know.

No_Expert

edited cuz it was a double tap

No_Expert

Alright, hold on a sec, I read this for the first time after it had been edited and did'nt see any attitude, hence my question.
Para069, I've never been an LEO, but I'll bet I've fired as many or more rounds in combat than you have.  Don't assume those of us not in LE have never seen the uglier side of what people can do to each other.

 If an individual had the answers asked here he could solve a lot of our countries problems. As a Leo for a lot of years I can only comment on my personal feelings and observations
 I think Med-cop answered it well. The teams are ready to go, want to go, sometimes would give anything to go. The brass makes that decision in most cases. It does seem that everyone wants to jump on the "let's bash the cops" themes. It's frustrating to feel that the LEO have access to something that citizens do not. Whether that be hi-caps, full autos, or training and other equipment. I think that the opinions we read so often automatically put the LEO's on the defensive. We get all lumped together as JBT's. For most of us, especially the ones posting here, we feel the same way about civil rights and the constitution as most of you. So it is frustrating to go to a site where most of the people have similar concerns and interests, and get slammed all the time.
  We can't tell you why a team did'nt go sooner, we don't know anymore about the situation than anyone else. We read the same newspaper you do. I've been on several call outs where things ended well. Never made the news. You generally only hear about the bad endings. You don't hear about the call out at 0200 that ended well. You try to get home to clean up and work your next shift. I've never personally been on a nite time no knock warrant. They are very rare in AR. If you want to lash out, why do it here. You are preaching to the choir.

No_Expert...

If you go back and read my other posts you can get an answer to this.  I just don't really feel like typing it all again.  I have posts on the first and second page and they both try to explain this....also, seb127 has one just above this response that helps.

medcop

CIB, read the opening question again, but this tme every time it say LEO or cop subsitute for whatever branch of the service you were in, Think how it reads then.

"fired more rounds in combat......"  Thank you.

Most people would say that military combate and an LE shootout have very little in common. In LE you have to account for what justified you firing a round in the first place, then you have to be able to account for every round you fire. You are responsible for anything and everything you hit. LE "combat" is often at close range both "parties" are moving and shooting, there are often "innocent" people within feet of the shootout. You are armed with a weapon that can kill but will most likely discomfort the other person, so that a determined BG can continue moving and shooting after he has been hit, foten after several hits.  

Just rushing in often results in a shoot out, and most likely more people being injured.

Citizens don't like it when LEO's injure people, either through recklessness, or neglignece. They like to "hold LEO's accountable". Either criminally or civily or both. They also like to fire LEO's that used force, that the public doesn't agree with even if the use of force was legally justifiable. THey also don't like to pay for counselling for a LEO involved in a shooting, that is changing somewhat.

Plus since we are comparing LEO's to military somewhat...... What happens if on your first night of basic training you slip and fall and destroy your knee?? Medical retirement from the military. If it is a duty related injury you will get retirement and lifelong medical care for free. If you are a LEO and get hurt of duty, too bad so sad. If you are a LEO who is injured on duty it is possbile that you could be barred from ever returning to work but be given a pittance of a workers comp settlement, based on earnings, years of service, age at time of injury etc.

Guys you seem to think I'm bashing LEO's, I'm not.  First I asked what was up with the armchair commando thing, and you lined me out on that.  Second, I said I question everything the gov't does, that still stands.  Thirdly I simply pointed out Para069's misconception that just because I'm not LEO I don't understand what it is about, or have "the guts to do it" refering to entering a hostile situation there.  I don't think I've entered the debate any further than that.  I would like to point out that remarks like the one made by Paratrooper_Kai specifically "In the world of Law enforcement it is us versus everyone" is'nt helping you guys out any.  All in all though I'm pro LEO, I know and hangout with about 4 cops regularly, matter of fact one just got on with the Arkansas State Police Tac Team.  You ought to hear us go around over some of this stuff!  

OK guys. I'm the one that convinced Tippie to unlock this thread. I think there are some issues that need to be discussed

Here is what I said to him:
[i]
I'm no cop hater, but some of their tactics piss me off. They are willing to put their lives on the line to do no knock searches just to seize evidence or a "criminal", and sometimes they kill a bunch of innocents But then they stand around when a murderer is killing innocents, and they don't do a damn thing! Like some said, maybe its the brass and not the swat members themselves that is the problem, but I think that the discussion was going pretty good.[/i]

He also asked me to post some rules to keep the discussion civil:

-No broadbased attacks on LEOs
-Don't say anything you wouldn't say to a cops face
-No Personal attacks
-Keep the discussion civil
-Keep the language to the way you would talk to your mom

There are some issues that need discussing, but please keep it to them, and not accusing each other of hating the other side. Tippie said he will lock this in a second if it gets out of hand.

Please let's make this worthwhile.

As a side note, I'm seen as an anti-LEO by some around here. I think that is unjustified. I've donated to the Law Enforcement Legal Defense Fund and to the Law Enforcement Alliance of American. There are a lot of good cops out there keeping us safe, and doing what most of us couldn't do. SWAT serves a purpose, but only for Hostage Rescue(in my view anyway). They put their lives on the line, and they don't get anything but trashed on. There are some bad cops out there, like any profession, but cops need to engage the citizens more too, and not defend these bad cops.

Thank You.

Fe-fi-fo-fom, I smell a tax payer. What an ahole... doesn't he know who he works for and is ACCOUNTABLE to?

I haven't had a problem answering questions, but I still think the original question was a bash/question equally. The fact that you don't understand the return fire after the original volley kinda makes me wonder.

It's tough to defend the why they didn't go in sooner questions, because the same people are asking why did they try to go in so quick in the Beck shoot out or the guy in Arizona recently, that was debated on this board.

Those are often darn tough decisions based on limited info. If you go in "too soon" your trigger happy, if you go in too late your a coward. In truth as the event is unfolding it's often tough to get enough reliable info to try and gauge when is "right" to go in. Of course if you ask 10 people when would be the right time to go in you would get 11 answers, from 3 minutes ago, to never ever.

As to the paratroopers remark he is stating a truism. BG's don't want to be caught, citizens often don't like it when police use force, (face it police use of force, even proper for a situation, often is not very pretty. Higher ups, who are there to stand near you when something goes right, are suddenly AWOL when you make one of those "tough calls". Getting sued is becoming more and more prevalent, even when the "Suer" was the one in the wrong.

Did you re-read the start of the post like I suggested?

Why didn't they go in?

That seems like a good question. Why didn't SWAT go in? That is not a fair question.

Even if the agency involved has a full time SWAT Team, it will probably still take a team 20-30 minutes to get to the scene and get assembled.

The "average" active shooter incident only lasts about 20 minutes.

The progressive, well-trained PDs around the country have adapted their policies and order the first responding officers to form a team and go directly to the shooter and stop them. I do not know why that did not happen in Indiana, although my first, uniformed guess would be that te Departments that were involved have not trained for this type of incident or adapted their policies for it.

I guess we'll see...

When your through here why don't you go find wahtever NFL team you like and tell them how they f-ed up and how you could do it better........After all you "pay" them because the TV networks pay them to televise the games so the networks can sell advertising time that you'll watch.

I just want to talk about the:

US vs. THEM

issue mentioned by some of the people on this post.

For those of you who don't know me...Yes, I am a LEO and Yes, I am on a REACT Team (our version of SWAT) Yes, I am very proud of what I do and I love my job.  

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the public for the most part only gets to see when Law Enforcement makes a mistake. and I mentioned before. They are only human.  Now when LE makes a mistake the public finds every little thing to complain and Bxxxxx about.  No one stops and thinks about when they do something right and that doing right is more than 99% of the time.  I think it goes...one bad apple spoils the bunch.well; one mistake is the same thing in the public’s eye.  One mistake and they are branded evil from then on.

LE gets the US vs. THEM attitude because no one ever steps up and says something nice to them when they do good.

I have been in LE for several years now...I know of [b]two[/b] times I have received a "Thanks" for something I did for a regular citizen.  I mean true honest thanks.  You know...both times will stick with me until the day I die!  People wonder why LEO get that attitude of us vs. them...well, for the most part and I really hate to say it..people don't care about Law Enforcement Officers until 1) they need help or 2) LE makes a mistake.

If you really want to make a LEO day...heck, maybe even his week..and possibly give him or her a memory that will last forever...the next time you see one at a store or what have you....go up to them and extend your hand and just tell them thank you for what they do.  You will probably get a surprised look from them or even a look of dis-trust..why?  Because this never happens.

LEO do get bitter when all they hear from the public they serve is well they screwed up this, they gave me a ticket, they bla, bla, bla.  

This is what makes the US vs. THEM mentality.

People in LE are obviously not in it for the money....most are truly in it because they want to help...they know they can't change the world, but they sure as hell want to try and make a difference.

Mike (thebeekeeper1) I just want to say that what you said to me on the board and in that email makes my list go from two to [b]three[/b].  You don't know how much that means to me...thank you.

It is nothing but a dream..and I can never see it happen, but imagine life without crime when people can all just get along.  I say this will probably never happen because here we are...for the most part a bunch of strangers and we are arguing on topics such as this over the Internet on a computer.

If I have offended anyone..I am sorry..I said it before and I say it again...I am only human.

medcop

Unfortunately this is the problem with cops today. Everyone they meet is a piece of human slime and even when they find out they're not slime, the cops still treat them like it.  
I've never been arrested in my life.  I've had one traffic ticket in 32 years.  I'm an eagle scout and the epitomy of a good citizen.
In the last month I've gone from a cop loving citizen who looked up to and admired them to one who hates them and their "better than thou attitude".  I'm tired of guys who think that because they got a piece of gold tin on their lapels that they are better than the rest of us.  
I actually had a cop berate me for trying to stop someone from breaking the law and then tell me that he didn't care what the other people were doing that if I didn't stop trying to stop them he would arrest ME.

I know there are a lot of good cops on this board.  Palmer, Hunduh, Ronin, Waverunner and others that I've forgotten.  I sincerely appreciate what you've done for us and our country, especially in the last three months.  But from now on,  every cop is going to have to prove himself to me.  I find myself distrusting and hating every cop I see till they prove that they show that they understand they're just citizens like us,  but with slightly different jobs.

Go ahead,  flame away. I know that 99.9% of all cops are decent guys but show me a cop that doesn't really believe he's better than the rest of "us" and I'll show you a guy that's not really a cop at all.

Swatties are just like normal cops only worse.  this summer I watched three swat types storm a house,  shoot the shit out of a 450 lb guy that could barely walk,  then walk out in the front yard high fiving each other like they just won the superbowl.  I don't care how bad you think you are,  when you shoot someone, you shouldn't be high fiving each other. (Incidentally, the huge fat guy who three guys shot at close range with 12 G shotguns LIVED, how good could they be?)  

Anyway,  dream on cops, you think you're gods but you're not.

crashburnrepeat

PS-To all the good cops who don't think they're better than us cause they got a badge,  THANK YOU for your sacrifices.  

seb127 and palmer and hunduh and others,  I hadn't considered this point but I know it's true.  All the guys that are on this board are like "us" and are part of "our" community.  the ones that don't think they are better than the rest of us.  You're the guys I was talking about when I said THANK YOU.  I know we're preaching to the choir but we're hoping that some day, somewhere in a briefing room when one of your JBT collegues is wondering why civies give you so much crap,  you'll educate him.  Get him thinking.  Teach him that having a badge doesn't make him better than the average law abiding joe but just different.

To those LEO's on this board and with our interests,  thanks for the job you do and your sacrifices.  It's a big deal and we appreciate it.

matt
crashburnrepeat

I am amazed at some of you people.  

Our law enforcement is made up of regular citizens just like you or me.  The thankless job they have, the meager pay (for what they risk), the constant criticism....

It isn't the SWAT team's fault that human slime commits the acts they do.  I am sure that any man put in their position wants to help innocents and hostages.  Wouldn't you?

Accept the fact that human slime exists.  How else do you explain wife-beaters, drug-dealers, kiddie porn...  Do you think they are "just a product of their environment"?  Everyone has the power to make their own choices in life.  Excuses like "their upbringing", or poverty don't fly.

Elias.  Blame Janet Reno if you blame anyone.  The enlisted Army Ranger in the field doesn't get to choose his mission anymore than these SWAT professionals get to choose theirs.  I am sure they have to do things by the book or you armchair quarterbacks will certainly raise a fit when they don't.  

Where in my post did I call YOU an armchair warrior, does the shoe fit?

[red]Personal attack?[/red]

Here we go AGAIN! The tax thing. I certainly don't work for YOU, I happen to pay taxes just like most poor slobs in this country, so I guess I pay myself and such, accountable to myself.

stator: cut it out. Either offer argue in a civilized manner or get out. We don't need your type here.

OLY-You make some good points, especially about the higher ups. Something not many of us think about.

beekeeper: you also bring up some points. A lot of the cases that go to review board are politically motivated. In fact, I was reading about one in the LELDF involving the Volpe case in NY. The front desk cop got ramroded into being convicted.

medcop: I here what you are saying about the US vs THEM mentality. In my opinion the media fuels it. Its just like guns. They only show the good guys and not the bad. Oh, and I'll take your advice and go up to a cop and just say thank you. I'll let you know what happens.

crashburnrepeat: I think are just seeing that bad sad. Yes there are bad cops, but don't paint all cops with that brush. I see you changed you mind a bit. If a cop treats you bad, talk to there supervisor. If a cop treats you good, THANK THEM.

I think there needs to be major communication between cops and citizens. Its a two way street. Cops need to interact and talk to citizens in situations that aren't because of an "incident", and vise versa for citizens. Cops need to be involved in the community and citizens need to engage cops in friendly banter. We don't need this harsh hatred between one another.

Until we can walk in their shoes, and know what restrictions they're held to, all we can do is make assumptions.  Let's end this one.