I know I will probably catch flak over it but I hate war. There's nothing glorious about it, but we gotta do what is necessary. My last day of IRR was on the 5th, I know I am safe from going, but I feel for my friends that are still active duty wondering where they will be tomorrow.

You and I are about the same age and have kids the same age.

I feel the same way, I'd go back in the Navy in a minute if I could spare my son's being drafted, and if I could kick some ass to get rid of all this anger I feel towards the enemies of our nation.

Xanadu

Amen

garandman,

Relax, there are a lot of teenagers posting on these boards, obviously.  Not a single one has ever come close to a real fight, they just play video games.  They've never even had a bloody nose from picking a fight with someone bigger than them, so give 'em some slack and try to understand where it's coming from.  Once life kicks them in the ass a time or two, they might get a clue.  

The US unilaterally attacking Iraq under these circumnstances really upsets me.  Whoever said that it is un-American is right on.  We've seen how this can play out--Gulf of Tonkin anyone?  The US did everything it could to get involved in SE Asia and 58,000+ Americans plus somewhere over 1 million Vietnamese lost their lives because of it.  The generation of people who lost that war are the ones who want to fight Iraq really, really badly.  They have a deep-seated hatred of themselves, or something.  Very compulsive, to say the least.  I will never understand why that particular generation is so rigid in its thinking and destructive in it actions.  

The worst part of all is that these assholes are going to wait until after the November elections, when they are free from any possible retaliation (other than marches and protests, I guess) on the homefront before they send thousands of people over to see whether the Iraqis love their homeland enough to defend it with their lives.  I gotta think that this time around isn't going to be the "cake walk" that the Gulf War was.  At least this time there isn't a draft (aka slavery).  

One thing that bugs me about all of this is that this war plays right into the hands of the UN, an organization that promotes world socialism and wants its own army and power to tax.  The US should not be involved in the UN, its goals have nothing to do with promoting capitalism or freedom around the world.  World domination is not the road to free trade or peace, it's just a higher layer of control.

By attacking Iraq, the US sets a precedent whereby any country that doesn't bow down to the UN will be targeted for destruction. How can this ever be good for American sovereignty or the sovereignty of any country for that matter?  

Oh, and the photo is probably a fake...

Kill em all and let Allah and Buddas fat ass sort em out!!

It's time for a good old fashioned field day in the desert.

Semper-Fidelis to God, Country and Corps!!

03 out!!  [sniper]

I've yet to meet a combat war vet who took any joy in war or in killing civilians.  Let us never glorify war and the taking of innocent lives or in burying our children.  

We made a serious error in letting Saddam continue in power.  I've never understood the concept of just pissing your enemy off and let him regain his strength.  

It's time to take out Saddam and any other country that has waged war against us for the past ten years.  Let's do it right this time.  

If this photo is faked, then the Navy [url=http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/images/in-news.html]faked it[/url].  In case you truly doubt it's authenticity, click the "Hi-rez" link at the end of the photo's description.

-kill-9

I live in Everett, WA, The Abe's homeport. I'm going to forward this to the local paper.

Buddhism is not really a religion.  It's more of a philosophy and a way of life.  There is little or no emphasis on an afterlife, but rather is a way to achieve happiness in one's lifetime.

Anyway...

I was declared unfit for service (I tried to enlist in the Marine Corps) when my knees were x-rayed at the request of the M.E.P.S. doctor.  As it turns out, the underside of my kneecaps are shaped funny and the patella can "run out of its track" during exertion (their explanation).  I forgot what the condition is called, but the last word is "retropatella."  I have occasional pains in my right knee, but my knees have never "given out" on me (and I hike, run, SCUBA, etc.)

I try not to sound too gung-ho and if I say things like "ooh-rah" or "Semper Fidelis" I'm only showing my support, and NOT being some pathetic groupie.

If my country decides that it needs me, and chooses to overlook my "problem" I'll be happy to enlist.  Until then, I'll give our armed forces 110% of my support.  

Let's turn their beaches to glass and show 'em our ass!

By the way...
USAF Security Police K-9, 1983-1988

I'm slightly too old to re-enlist, but if they would be willing to waive it (and if I can fake my way through the hearing test with my bum left ear), then just stick my ass back in uniform, point me in the right direction and tell me who you want dead.

I am 100% in favor of going after Iraq.  I was in the Army, and I hate to think of any American being sent into harms way, but it must be done.  War is more justified and necessary now, than at any time in our Nations history.

I will gladly go if needed.

[size=6][b]LETS ROLL!!Ditto[/b][/size=6][/quote]

73 Easting- do it again.

I want peace, but I don't kid myself about what it will take.

I would forgive, but nobody is asking.

I understand I cannot speak for others.
I cannot blame them for not listening if someone were asking. I didn't lose anyone I knew, so what is that worth anyway?

The lesson I take from that tragedy is that there is no amount of veangence that will make up for an ounce of preemption, prevention, preparation, and action.

There is no amount of Middle Eastern real estate that I would trade for having a child settle for a memory of a parent.

I have never seen war, but it has scarred my family for generations. When the Poles resisted Khan's hordes, they sent a message into the future I won't forget. You may not ask for war, but you damn well better be prepared to give it when it is needed.

When Chaimberlain appeased Hitler, He sent a message I won't forget either. If you are willing to pay a price for peace, you'd better bring a blank check. The price of freedom must always include putting up with the whining of  the syncophants demanding an environmental impact report for the grass your horse is about to walk on, but God help you if you give them the reigns.

There is a time for peace, and it is when I am sure of my neighbors good intentions, or when it doesn't matter.

It is time for war.

Not to shift gears here but I heard a funny one by the late great Sam Kinison. Went something like this:

"Us Americans have a sick sense of humor. First we invent this smart bomb that has pinpoint accuracy. And what do we do for some fun? We put a fucking camera on the front of it!!! this is so the Generals can watch the explosion over and over and over again!! Can you imagine these guys all sitting around playing it over again??" "LETS WATCH IT AGAIN...PLAY IT AGAIN....WAIT A MINUTE WAIT A MINUTE.... [b]FREEZE FRAME!!!!!!!!!"[/b]

Then Kinison goes on to say:

"Now the Iraqi's have a similar missile to ours. What they do is launch a scud from the trunk of their car, then go home and turn on CNN and see where it lands!!"

MAN HE WAS FUNNY!!!!

Garandman I sometimes wonder if you are some liberal democrat or something, mainly because you seem very crafty at twisting things out of context and then turning a conversation towards something that was not even said.

Your examples of my "logic" and trying to compare it towards Hitler is a nice emotional arguement, but is weak in facts! You sir made a complete fool out of yourself, I find it very funny and entertaining! Nice trick!

It is quite obvious that you did not read my posts, all you saw was civilian and you went off on your one track minded tiriad!

Next time try to stay on the topic of conversation.

I had also gave  reasons why I would rejoice, I find it interesting that you made no mention of those! Oh well I guess the facts are just to much for you! You would rather puke out some emotional dribble.

[img]http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=redray&album_id=86221&image_id=39&show=image¶m=79212[/img]

Dude! That Navy photo page is KICK-ASS! LOTS of new wallpaper material!

One a slightly seperate note, however, the THING they're tacking onto the SPRUANCE-class destroyers is just plain FUGLY!

Edited to add: Even if it DOES look as if the ship is giving someone the finger!

[img]http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/destroyers/radford/rad-souda.jpg[/img]

Zaphod,
are you in the Bay Area (California)? that looks like Suisun Bay, where some of our ships are mothballed.

Okay. Here's a first. I'm going to come to Garandman's defense (not that he needs my help, but what the hell....)

I do not believe that G-Man's outrage at the comment concerning dancing to the news of civilian deaths is based on any love for the Iraqis. It is, rather, based on a belief that only the guilty should suffer our revenge.

This is a correct and admirable position to take, especially after having been kicked in the teeth as hard as we were on 9/11.

I should say, however, that I do not share his view, correct as it may be. While I will hardly be dancing when CIVILIANS are killed (the death of military forces, however, is entirely a different animal), I will admit that I will say a quiet and smug, "Take that, you bastards!" It's not that I'm eager to see innocent life destroyed, but don't expect me to shed any tears over them, either.

Recall that these same people have repeatedly celebrated any evil that has befallen us, and have seemed to be completely uninterested in removing Hussein from power.

Just because someone wants only the guilty to die (and I'm sure he does), it doesn't make him a liberal (who would probably prefer we just lose the war to make GW look bad).

I think the primary difference between those with G-Man's position and those of us who could care less about collateral damage is one of degree. The former wants restricted warfare to achieve a given end, while the latter wants unrestricted war to ensure a quick, devastating, and emotionally-shattering victory.

My .223...

Kalifornia? HELL NO! I'm in sunny South Florida (apparently the preferred home of terrorists in America, if the news is accurate!).

Actually, that ship is not being mothballed. It is a new mast with new radars and sensors inside it. The reason it looks the way it does is because it is designed to reduce radar cross-section a la Stealth. They began installing them around 1997 or so...

I still say it's friggin' ugly, though, no matter how well it works.

So, big deal, you've got boys 4 and 5.  You have twelve years to reconsider your position.

My own son is in the 101st Air Assault.  He's a real dirt soldier in a weapons platoon, not some support staffer holed-away in a bunker.  They've been getting ready, doing urban warfare training, for months.  There are people here thinking we're going to take 10-20,000 men and clear the streets of Baghdad doing house to house fighting.  You've got images of desert warfare in mind, and you are so, so wrong.  This one is going to be HARD.  Baghdad is NOT open desert and its NOT Kabul.

It is SO EASY to talk big when you've got no skin in the game!

I am spending many a sleepless night thinking about this.  I drive long commutes when I can't think off anything else but my 19-year old boy, with so much smarts and potential, so many reasons to live a long, happy life... lying dead in the streets of Baghdad.

I have poured my life into the raising of my children.  I was the one that told my son he should consider the military, and I supported his desire to become an infantryman.  I support him 100%, and I support the overthrow of Saddam 100%.

But if you think patriotism makes you throw parental love out the window, you've got another thing coming.  I for one hope you never have to face this.  You think its so easy.

Before someone calls me a cry-baby or calls me un-American, I say "stuff-it."  I'm not looking for sympathy.  I'm just saying a lot of people with nothing to lose are thinking this will be a big walk in the park.  It's easy to sit on the sidelines and yell go-get-'em, isn't it?  You've got another thing coming.

To everyone here that will go to war: my earnest and heartfelt prayers are for your safe return.

FWIW, '66-81. A number of MOS's.
It won't start as house to house. We have to get troops to Baghdad first. And they will get there. Lots of dead enemy soldiers and POW's. Loss ratio will be a little higher than the last Gulf War, but still not terrible (as in high cost; one life lost is terrible). Saddam has re-armed, but he doesn't have the new tech weapons we have now. (The item I work on searches for a new target while engaging/destroying the current one.)  

I truly respect your opinion.

Getting to Baghdad will be like Desert Storm.  But I've got to believe that Saddam knows he can't beat us in the open with our CAS.

If he has anything like a brain, he'll have his troops hunkered down in every apartment building, every high-rise, every shop, plaza and square.  Baghdad is a BIG, and ancient city.

Just picture this: Baghdad has 3.8 MILLION inhabitants.  Picture every one of them under attack.  Picture one in ten of them wanting to fight back in any way possible.  Picture one in 100 of them fully armed and determined to repel the invaders.  Maybe they're not well trained, but they're defending their homes, their businesses, their children.  How would YOU react in this situation?  Fight like mad with everything you've got?  Well, they will too.

Desert Storm wasn't easy, but it was picture perfect for our military strength.  Airpower won the day.  Heavy armor ruled the ground.  Resistance was pounded to dust from 40,000 feet, or at 500 feet from the cockpit of a CAS fighter.

This one will not be like that.  Picture house-to-house, block-to-block mayhem, mile after mile.  Sure, it can be done.  Our fathers did it in WW2 across France, hedgerow-to-hedgerow, village-to-village.  But it took a LONG, LONG time and there were heavy casualties.

After Desert Storm, does America have the stomach for this?

You know, my [b]worst[/b] nightmare isn't that my son will be killed.

[b][i]My worst nightmare is that he will be killed and the fickle American public will lose their stomach and call it quits and he will have died for nothing, and no-one will care or honor his memory for what he's done.[/b][/i]

While I generally agree with garandman that targeting civilians is wrong and beneath us, we have done it on occasion.  Two examples I can think of are Hiroshima and Nagasaki; by killing a couple of hundred thousand civilians, we saved millions of [b]Japanese[/b] lives.  As well as thousands of Americans.  It is hard to argue that it was not the "best" option.

But the bombing of cities in Germany was a marked failure, and was only successful once the technology was refined to point that specific industrial target could be hit.  The most effective raids involved very few civilian casualties.  The firebombing of Japanese cities did very little for the war effort, even the great Tokyo raid that killed over 100,000.  In general, killing civilians does very little to help you win a war.

I doubt targeting civilians in this war will accomplish much, except if you are going to exterminate the whole Muslim world.  Maybe that is the lesson on Hiroshima; bombing civilians is only effective if it carries the implicit threat of annihilating the entire civilization.

And the US is not ready to even mention such a threat.  So targetin civilians at this point is likely to do nothing, or just make us more enemies.

Another thought:  I don't know how hard the fight in the cities will be, but they were saying how we would take 100,000 casualties in the first Gulf War too.  Arabs have a history of getting the crap kicked out of them by Western armies, whether in cities or not.  The US Army and Marines have a history of being highly effective at urban warfare.  It is lots better than guerilla warfare, because if they stand and fight we can use our overwhelming firepower.  I bet you will not find many living North Vietnamese veterans from the battle of Hue.

They could surprise us, but I doubt it.  Western armies excel at fixed fighting, and Arab armies suck at it.  They are good at guerilla warfare, and we have a hard time with it.  They are playing to our strengths.

CM,

I have no sons; only two daughters who are 14 months and 28 minths old, respectively.

Still, in no way will I, nor the overwhelming majority of people on this board, ever call you unAmerican or otherwise for being concerned for the safety of your son, or for calling that he be employed as a military asset in a manner befitting his training and which maximizes the odds of achieving victory.

Sure, we have a lot of rah-rah- types here. So what? Those who are young will learn with age and experience. Those of us who are older, or who once wore the Uniform, know better, and while we are rah-rah in our own way, we recognize that to assume an invasion of Iraq will be a cakewalk is to adopt an arrogance that is extremely dangerous in war.

I want to thank you and your son. You for raising him to be a fine man, him for choosing to serve the forces which now guard my home and my family. I want us to destroy Iraq so that neither your home nor mine are threatned. I also recognize that your son may be killed.

I will not pretend to understand the stress you must feel as a man whos son may be going to war, but I understand that such is his duty, that he knows it, and that he will make all of us proud. After that, we simply must put our trust in his training (the best there is), his leadership (at least we have a Prez with a pair, now), and in Almighty God, who I can assure you is on OUR side.

Hang in their, buddy...

Sounds like someone who has a REALLY good understanding of 'Nam, and stateside, in teh years after 'Nam.

Brother -

I understand what yer sayin'. I too think its all too easy for teh politicians and the hawks to advocate war, when tehy stand to lose no one, and its NOT their sons that will be dying.

I'm ready to go to war, BUT only if its TRULY necessary.

The worst thing a parent will ever have to do is bury his own child. I, for ONE, don't take your risk of loss lightly.

Carbine Man,  as a former Rakkasan, I pray your son comes home safe.  Thank you for raising him to believe in this country.  

I hope and pray that when we send our troops, we allow them to do what must be done.  Godspeed to all.

Oh we will, God gives grace when we ask.

And I should add, my kid is raring to go.  Can't wait to earn a conflict ribon!

my cousin was in the curved part of the 'R'

he said they had to stand out there for an hour and a half while a "bunch of damned retards with tape measures ran around barking 'move left', 'back up', etc."

thanks for the link, he hadn't seen this picture yet so i sent it to him

Hee-hee! THAT'S the spirit!