Quoted: What about the illegal aliens who don't need/want a drivers license? They'd be unemployable, unable to open bank accounts, get credit, purchase titled property, OR RECEIVE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS... Thus, they'd pack up & go back, because without a card you'd be 100% locked out of the legal economy... What about US citizens who don't need/want a drivers license? A non-driving, ID-only version would be available, just like it is now... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't get one? No, but they'd be unable to work, open a bank or credit account, buy a house or car, drive, etc... The price of anonymity is that no one wants to do business with you, for liability reasons.... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't carry their papers? The rules would be no different than the present driver's license system - you carry it if you need it. this is nothing more than the US government taking a giant step down the road to serfdom. Being able to prove who you are has nothing to do with 'serfdom'... It's no different than the present system, just harder to fake & standardized/unified nationwide

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm willing to accept the risks. It's the price we pay for living in a free society. +1 What about this concept is so hard for some people to grasp? INDEPENDENT THOUGHT ALARM!!!!~ You two obviously don't know what's best for you.The government is working hard to make things better for us.Please don't stop taking your pills,citizens.

How does being able (and required) to prove who you are before you engage in commerce become a problem?

If the .gov doesn't do it, the private sector will eventually do it anyhow, simply by refusing to do business with you unless you can prove who you are (for liability reasons)...

Quoted: Quoted: Fascist propaganda? You presume the government would even want to track you... [foilhat] It's not about the government tracking anybody... It's about the ability of business owners to do business (esp business involving non-cash payment, which is 90+% of our economy) without getting ripped off... It's about making sure that everyone who gets a legal job is legally employable... It's about making sure that only YOU can spend your money & use your credit... Oh, but you're worried that 'Big Brother' wants to track your movements and count the number of purchases you made from Sportsman's Guide... Someone's delusional... Because the government has never abused power or kept records of totally innocent people before. COINTELPRO  <== read. The Final report of the Church Committee concluded:    "Too many people have been spied upon by too many Government agencies and too much information has been collected. The Government has often undertaken the secret surveillance of citizens on the basis of their political beliefs, even when those beliefs posed no threat of violence or illegal acts on behalf of a hostile foreign power. The Government, operating primarily through secret informants, but also using other intrusive techniques such as wiretaps, microphone "bugs", surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, has swept in vast amounts of information about the personal lives, views, and associations of American citizens. Investigations of groups deemed potentially dangerous -- and even of groups suspected of associating with potentially dangerous organizations -- have continued for decades, despite the fact that those groups did not engage in unlawful activity. Groups and individuals have been harassed and disrupted because of their political views and their lifestyles. Investigations have been based upon vague standards whose breadth made excessive collection inevitable. Unsavory and vicious tactics have been employed -- including anonymous attempts to break up marriages, disrupt meetings, ostracize persons from their professions, and provoke target groups into rivalries that might result in deaths. Intelligence agencies have served the political and personal objectives of presidents and other high officials. While the agencies often committed excesses in response to pressure from high officials in the Executive branch and Congress, they also occasionally initiated improper activities and then concealed them from officials whom they had a duty to inform.    Governmental officials -- including those whose principal duty is to enforce the law --have violated or ignored the law over long periods of time and have advocated and defended their right to break the law.    The Constitutional system of checks and balances has not adequately controlled intelligence activities. Until recently the Executive branch has neither delineated the scope of permissible activities nor established procedures for supervising intelligence agencies. Congress has failed to exercise sufficient oversight, seldom questioning the use to which its appropriations were being put. Most domestic intelligence issues have not reached the courts, and in those cases when they have reached the courts, the judiciary has been reluctant to grapple with them." Get real. A new system would have more holes than the old one. Don't think for a second that any technology is immune to being hacked and picked a part. People do this as a hobbie. Its why the diebold voting machines have been hacked its why every video game system that comes out gets hacked in weeks of release without the use of insider information or knowledge of their brand new proprietary hardware and software. Its why windows software constantly gets hacked despite Microsoft keeping its source code closed. There are legions of people that find weak points in large public systems for fun. Take for example New Yorks MTA. Read a 2600 or two next time you're at the bookstore. While you're at it pick up the Art of Deception and the Art of Intrusion both by Kevin Mitnick If you ask me we should get rid of the broke Social Security system all together. Therefore no more abuse. If credit card companies want to issue their own for of identification for purposes of credit thats fine. But leave the government out of it.

You do realize that you're quoting the one man most responsible for destroying our national intelligence agencies?

Frank Church fucked us over good... In the name of 'oversight' of course...

Quoted: Quoted: Dave_A 1 The United Powers of ARFCOM 0 The national ID card makes sense. It does make sense on the surface. It makes sense the same way that banning guns ends gun crime and that banning drugs eliminates junkies. This is a complex issue with complex solutions. A project this large is not to be undertaken without thorough consideration and evidence to suggest it will be successful. Hell you could completely get rid of 12 metric shit tons of paperwork that is all there to prove your identity with one piece of plastic/database entry. I would love for someone at a later date or whenever to get a bill going that would deport everyone without a National ID card.  It would be pretty sweet. When states issued driver's licenses IIRC they didn't go around and put you in communist reeducation camps or swoop into your 10 digit grid coordinate with Blackhawks and shoot your dogs. If they CAN, they eventually WILL. This is the historical lesson of omnipotent government. These things may not happen as soon as the ID card gets into circulation, and it might not happen in our lives. But it WILL happen. Monsters will gain office, and their targeted people will have nowhere to hide and no recourse to take. As far as eliminating all the other ID systems and paperwork, I think you are placing too much trust in the ability of the .gov to administer a large bureaucracy. The SSA, DHS, FAA, and the various state DMVs are examples of this. None of these are as efficient as any private businesss that keeps itself afloat. To believe the national ID project can be done correctly, by the government, on such a colossal scale is foolsih. Also, you are underestimating the ability of criminals to defraud the system. Even if the cards were tamper proof, the employees would not be. This national ID business is destined to be every bit of a failure as the SSA. What happens when a federal employee loses your ID card or information? What happens if a criminal claims your identity and secures an ID card with your name on it? What happens when a federal employee receives money or threats from someone who wants you "deleted"? You have to keep Murphy in mind here.   I prefer having to prove citizenship with multiple documents and paperwork. Instead of having to defraud only one system, an ID theft has to defraud several in order to "become" you. By the way, did you read my above post with the quotes forme the OP? It would be great if you'd quote it and add your counterpoints.

We don't have these problems in the military... And we're using the exact system that needs to be run nationwide, right now...

Both myself & 11Badass use it every day, here in Korea...

The military uses it to control access to bases, for computer logins, and to allow the encryption/signature of emals... It works... People's data doesn't get 'lost', and no one's hacked into the system and added 'new' IDs...

It's not a front-end  system like all the hack examples that have been posted in this thread (Xbox, DVDs, etc - none of that stuff 'phones home' to validate) so it IS pretty well hack-proof..

Why would it be any different on a national scale?

Quoted: The National ID card WILL be hacked/cracked. It will make it easier for ID thieves to steal our identities, because instead of stealing our DL, Social Security, etc, they'll only need to steal one card, a card you have to carry with you at all times. I leave my soc security and my permanent resident card at home because having it stolen is too much of a danger for me. That danger will be increased if you have to carry a national ID card with you at all times.

So how are you going to hack the system, if the system is separate from the card? Computer hacks focus on the front-end system (in this case the card) - in the system described above you can 'hack' the card all you want, when someone scans it it will come up 'hacked' no matter what you do to it, because no matter what you do to the card, it won't match the master file online...

And no one said anything about carrying it at all times - just when driving, or using it to prove your identity (just like your DL)...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post? Because with one central ID, you can pair it with one central database which contains all valid IDs... You can then validate every ID with a PIN number over the internet or phone, and have the system return a picture & number to cross-check against... We do it in the military already... Barring some hollywood-level 'Mission Impossible' bullshit, the system is fraud proof... Nothing you do to a possible fake will matter - no matter how convincing it is, if it doesn't validate in the system, or you don't know the PIN, it will be detected... Try that with 50 separate driver's-license/SSN combinations... Hell, the SSN is completely unverifiable....But yet we use it as if it's a valid form of ID... Hmm, that MIGHT just be something to fix... Also makes it real easy to track your citizens movements, purchases etc. Very Orwellian.  Thats why folks are anti-national ID.  One central database for everything = police state.

No, one central database for ID = your business transactions are secure and verified, and no one works or gets government aid without an ID...

Your business transactions would still be the property of the company you did business with, just like they are now...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post? Yep, its just an excuse so the feds can control you that much more, my solution is deport the fucking illegals and shut the borders(especially the southern one) tighter than a virgins...uh purse So, without ID how do you know who's illegal and who's not... And how do we accomplish, with no troops/personell to spare, something that no nation has ever been able to do (secure a border the size of the US/MX one)? Neither is viable... Birth certificates, just as we've done for years. We don't use our troops, we use the Border Patrol like they should be used, and political influence on the Mexican govt. to keep the illegals from crossing anyway. Very simple.

We have even less border patrol than military... It would take hundreds of thousands of personnel to 'seal' the border... We don't have them...

And birth certificates are practically useless as proof of ID...

The BC can belong to anyone with your name...

Quoted: Quoted: Birth certificates, just as we've done for years. We don't use our troops, we use the Border Patrol like they should be used, and political influence on the Mexican govt. to keep the illegals from crossing anyway. Very simple. We have even less border patrol than military... It would take hundreds of thousands of personnel to 'seal' the border... We don't have them... And birth certificates are practically useless as proof of ID... The BC can belong to anyone with your name...

We have more than enough Border Patrol Agents to secure the border with Mexico securing their side, and US laws to discourage illegal imigration.

They (BCs) are used in schools for child enrollment all the time. A SS card, and a state DL or ID are more than enough for adult forms of ID.

edit: clarity

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post? Yep, its just an excuse so the feds can control you that much more, my solution is deport the fucking illegals and shut the borders(especially the southern one) tighter than a virgins...uh purse So, without ID how do you know who's illegal and who's not... And how do we accomplish, with no troops/personell to spare, something that no nation has ever been able to do (secure a border the size of the US/MX one)? Neither is viable...

Here's is an interesting question (not to derail this impending trainwreck of a thread too soon, but):  Why is it necessary to keep people out of the country anyway?  This country had pretty much open imigration for years.

The way I see it, there are three kinds of people hopping the border:  most probably do want a better life with more opportunity, a minority simply want to leach off the system, and a few terrorists want to spread hate and discontent.

The solution to the first two is to simply abolish all welfare and then abolish most immigration laws.  With that out of the way, anyone wanting to come here for legitimate reasons won't have to sneak in, and they will all have an opportunity to live the american dream.  I figure without the welfare, anyone who comes here expecting a free ride will either work, leave or die.  Problem solved.

Now, we get to the boogey-men.  This will be the border patrol's full time job.  Anyone caught sneaking in is immediately arrested, interogated, and held until charged or deported.

I'm sure there will be some technicalities to hammer out (wall height and construction), but this plan would pretty much end the welfare state, allow as many people who want to be Americans as necessary, tons of new people to the labor pool, give the border patrol a real job, and most importantly: negate the need for some bullshit tracking identification system.

Quoted: So, without ID how do you know who's illegal and who's not... And how do we accomplish, with no troops/personell to spare, something that no nation has ever been able to do (secure a border the size of the US/MX one)? Neither is viable...

Great Wall of China: 3,948 miles
US Mexican Border: 1,951 miles

Quoted: I'm willing to accept the risks. It's the price we pay for living in a free society.

those who would sacrifice their freedom for security deserve neither

and besides, we pay enough already...they'll make up some fucking national ID tax or some such BS

they now charge you a $100 fee to get your haz-mat endorsement on your CDL, in the name of Homeland Security...it doesn't take any longer, they just charge extra

control=power...its elementary

Quoted: Quoted: What about the illegal aliens who don't need/want a drivers license? They'd be unemployable, unable to open bank accounts, get credit, purchase titled property, OR RECEIVE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS... Thus, they'd pack up & go back, because without a card you'd be 100% locked out of the legal economy... What about US citizens who don't need/want a drivers license? A non-driving, ID-only version would be available, just like it is now... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't get one? No, but they'd be unable to work, open a bank or credit account, buy a house or car, drive, etc... The price of anonymity is that no one wants to do business with you, for liability reasons....selling it as business huh? How about privacy...our system of credit does nothing for our society as it stands, it bankrupts hundreds of thousands...our currency isn't worth anything, imports, inflation and deficit are killing our economy and you suggest controlling the amount of privacy we are allowed as citizens of this country...the implications are far more reaching than these simple answers Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't carry their papers? The rules would be no different than the present driver's license system - you carry it if you need it. this is nothing more than the US government taking a giant step down the road to serfdom. Being able to prove who you are has nothing to do with 'serfdom'... It's no different than the present system, just harder to fake & standardized/unified nationwide

This is the problem with a single National ID.   You will be COMPELLED to use it when:

You buy something.  (the government knows now everything you buy)

When you travel.  (the government knows where you are)

Imagine having to use your National ID to get on a bus, to buy gas at a gas station, to use a toll booth on the highway, to get on a plane, to get on a subway, even taking it as far as to unlock your own house.

Imagine the government knowing EVERYTHING you buy, even ammo, guns, tannerite.  Buy the wrong things that the "GOVERNMENT" thinks is "wrong" and you become a person of interest to them.  

Boom, with a national ID they know exactly where you are at all times and can come pick your ass up.  (Minority Report:  you have not committed a crime, YOU MIGHT)

And don't forget, depending who is in power in the GOVERNMENT, they can CHANGE the definitions at ANY TIME about what type of purchases or BEHAVIOR.  

Thus at any time you could become a target of the .gov based on a POLITICIANS WHIM.

Quoted: Quoted: So, without ID how do you know who's illegal and who's not... And how do we accomplish, with no troops/personell to spare, something that no nation has ever been able to do (secure a border the size of the US/MX one)? Neither is viable... Great Wall of China: 3,948 miles US Mexican Border: 1,951 miles

Great Wall of China capable of stopping individuals from crossing? NO...

There's a big difference between stopping hordes of Mongol cavalry, and stopping people from crossing the border in small groups...

There is no wall that will stop our problem... We have to make them want to stay home (or at least illegally migrate somewhere else)....

Quoted: This is the problem with a single National ID.   You will be COMPELLED to use it when: You buy something.  (the government knows now everything you buy) When you travel.  (the government knows where you are) Imagine having to use your National ID to get on a bus, to buy gas at a gas station, to use a toll booth on the highway, to get on a plane, to get on a subway, even taking it as far as to unlock your own house. Imagine the government knowing EVERYTHING you buy, even ammo, guns, tannerite.  Buy the wrong things that the "GOVERNMENT" thinks is "wrong" and you become a person of interest to them.   Boom, with a national ID they know exactly where you are at all times and can come pick your ass up.  (Minority Report:  you have not committed a crime, YOU MIGHT) And don't forget, depending who is in power in the GOVERNMENT, they can CHANGE the definitions at ANY TIME about what type of purchases or BEHAVIOR.   Thus at any time you could become a target of the .gov based on a POLITICIANS WHIM.

Paranoia...

They could do that with most people right now if they wanted to... All they have to do is call Visa & MasterCard...

The last thing I'm worried about is the government coming up with some horrifically expensive plan to monitor how many times I go to Wal Mart...

There are better, cheaper ways to spy on people... Of course, these do not inspire mass paranoia in the same way that your above 'scheme' does....

Think about it this way:

The typical member of this site has:

Driver's License
CCW Permit/License
C&R License
Social Security Number
POV registration...
At least 1 major credit card
At least one bank account
At least one telephone

If the government wanted to track you, they can do so just as easily with or without national ID... Remember: the BANK owns your transaction records, you DON'T...

So let's cut the paranoia crap... It's not about tracking people... Sci-fi bullshit...

Quoted: Quoted: What about the illegal aliens who don't need/want a drivers license? They'd be unemployable, unable to open bank accounts, get credit, purchase titled property, OR RECEIVE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS... Thus, they'd pack up & go back, because without a card you'd be 100% locked out of the legal economy... What about US citizens who don't need/want a drivers license? A non-driving, ID-only version would be available, just like it is now... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't get one? No, but they'd be unable to work, open a bank or credit account, buy a house or car, drive, etc... The price of anonymity is that no one wants to do business with you, for liability reasons.... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't carry their papers? The rules would be no different than the present driver's license system - you carry it if you need it. this is nothing more than the US government taking a giant step down the road to serfdom. Being able to prove who you are has nothing to do with 'serfdom'... It's no different than the present system, just harder to fake & standardized/unified nationwide

so if it isn't a crime if you don't get one (including the ID-only version), how do you differentiate between a brown looking citizen and an illegal alien?  are you going to arrest him since he doesn't have papers?

Quoted: Quoted: What do you do about that? First step: Get over the insane delusional notion that you can create 'heaven on earth' where technology has solved all the world's problems and we've finally outsmarted criminals once and for all, and just accept the system as it is. There is NO chance of the national ID solving more problems than it creates. None, zip, zilch, nada.

Exactly. It's nothing more than a waste of tax dollars.

Quoted: Quoted: What about the illegal aliens who don't need/want a drivers license? They'd be unemployable, unable to open bank accounts, get credit, purchase titled property, OR RECEIVE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS... Thus, they'd pack up & go back, because without a card you'd be 100% locked out of the legal economy... What about US citizens who don't need/want a drivers license? A non-driving, ID-only version would be available, just like it is now... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't get one? No, but they'd be unable to work, open a bank or credit account, buy a house or car, drive, etc... The price of anonymity is that no one wants to do business with you, for liability reasons.... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't carry their papers? The rules would be no different than the present driver's license system - you carry it if you need it. this is nothing more than the US government taking a giant step down the road to serfdom. Being able to prove who you are has nothing to do with 'serfdom'... It's no different than the present system, just harder to fake & standardized/unified nationwide

Boy, that sounds great.

It astounds me how many people on this board actually think RealID is a good idea....

let me remind you of some very simple concepts:

1) Centralized databases are not a good thing.  How many of you have had a problem with a bill from a company because someone in a cubicle screwed up on data entry?  People make mistakes, lose hardrives (remember the VA?), leave sensitive documents lying around, etc.  Remember anything electronic can be phreaked, hacked or cracked--at least with multiple databases there are multiple targets.  One centralized database means only one attack.

2) Criminals are criminals because they break laws.  RealID is simply going to be another law to break--and will become a wonderful business opportunity for the current traffic in false identification documents.

3) All bureaucracies are subject to function creep. As I have said before, in my father's working life, Social Security numbers went from an account number "Not to be used for Identification Purposes" (yes, the cards actually had that printed on them once upon a time...) to a national Taxpayer Identification Number.  I signed up for one when I got my first summer job in high school--now, my wife and I practically weren't allowed out of the hospital until I filled out the paperwork for our newborn.  You can't assume that function creep is not going to happen to RealID, especially with the open-ended clauses this law contains.

Now, for an example of how these concepts work, remove "RealID/Homeland Security" and plug in, say, IRS or ATF, or EPA and describe in your own words what has happened with those bureaucracies over the years....

All my wooly RealID supporting friends, the slaughterhouse is this way------->  Baaah!

Quoted: Quoted: This is the problem with a single National ID.   You will be COMPELLED to use it when: You buy something.  (the government knows now everything you buy) When you travel.  (the government knows where you are) Imagine having to use your National ID to get on a bus, to buy gas at a gas station, to use a toll booth on the highway, to get on a plane, to get on a subway, even taking it as far as to unlock your own house. Imagine the government knowing EVERYTHING you buy, even ammo, guns, tannerite.  Buy the wrong things that the "GOVERNMENT" thinks is "wrong" and you become a person of interest to them.   Boom, with a national ID they know exactly where you are at all times and can come pick your ass up.  (Minority Report:  you have not committed a crime, YOU MIGHT) And don't forget, depending who is in power in the GOVERNMENT, they can CHANGE the definitions at ANY TIME about what type of purchases or BEHAVIOR.   Thus at any time you could become a target of the .gov based on a POLITICIANS WHIM. Paranoia... They could do that with most people right now if they wanted to... All they have to do is call Visa & MasterCard... The last thing I'm worried about is the government coming up with some horrifically expensive plan to monitor how many times I go to Wal Mart... There are better, cheaper ways to spy on people... Of course, these do not inspire mass paranoia in the same way that your above 'scheme' does.... Think about it this way: The typical member of this site has: Driver's License CCW Permit/License C&R License Social Security Number POV registration... At least 1 major credit card At least one bank account At least one telephone If the government wanted to track you, they can do so just as easily with or without national ID... Remember: the BANK owns your transaction records, you DON'T... So let's cut the paranoia crap... It's not about tracking people... Sci-fi bullshit...

JESUS CHRIST!!!

It is NOT paranoia CRAP.  If you WANTED to you could pretty much DUMP all those items above and still live within society.

If you use cash, then nothing to it.  If you want to drive, have a DL, but when you are REQUIRED to use an ID card to DO ANYTHING, like in Singapore (I think it is), you can be tracked almost INSTANTLY.

What if AR15.com suddenly gets deemed a threat to National Security?

What if anyone who purchases over 500 rounds of ammo is a potential terror threat?

Are you a member of a Gun Club?

Are you a member of any RKBA association?

You could be a "terrorist"

This is NOT sci-fi BULLSHIT, these are LAWS that are trying to get PASSED right NOW.

If you want big brother to track you, shove a GPS up your ass and give them all your guns, but I prefer to live in anonimity, because I don't do anything wrong.

There is NO society on this earth that you would consider free if everything the citizens there did was based upon their ID.

You really have no clue how BADLY one segment of society wants to control everything.  For that I am sorry and I hope that one day you can explain that to your progeny, that you did not realize how bad it was.

Quoted: Quoted: If my own goverment wanted to discuss my concerns about a national ID card, my response would be...... ..."do your fucking job to secure our borders, prosecute and export illegal aliens, and then we'll discuss this.  A national ID card will do no more for national security than something like ...oh I don't know.....gun control!?"     Exactly.  They refuse to do one job, and think that some centralized information about us will fix it? No.  Fix the borders.  Deport illegals.  Then we'll talk.

+1

truly spoken.

why even national ID card?  just put a chip on our forehead and forearm.  


One scan, that's all.


No chip in the forehead, no grocery buying, no nothing.

Why do I have to give up freedoms in order to make life easier for business? Or make it easier to catch criminals? Or make it hard on illegals?

This idea makes about as much sense as "ballistic fingerprinting." That makes it easier to solve gun crimes, right? Why should anyone be against a national database that matches guns to bullets?



If you want to get rid of illegals, put the onus on corporations to validate the citizenship of their potential employees. Let the free market handle this. No jobs: no illegals.

Quoted: Quoted: This is the problem with a single National ID.   You will be COMPELLED to use it when: You buy something.  (the government knows now everything you buy) When you travel.  (the government knows where you are) Imagine having to use your National ID to get on a bus, to buy gas at a gas station, to use a toll booth on the highway, to get on a plane, to get on a subway, even taking it as far as to unlock your own house. Imagine the government knowing EVERYTHING you buy, even ammo, guns, tannerite.  Buy the wrong things that the "GOVERNMENT" thinks is "wrong" and you become a person of interest to them.   Boom, with a national ID they know exactly where you are at all times and can come pick your ass up.  (Minority Report:  you have not committed a crime, YOU MIGHT) And don't forget, depending who is in power in the GOVERNMENT, they can CHANGE the definitions at ANY TIME about what type of purchases or BEHAVIOR.   Thus at any time you could become a target of the .gov based on a POLITICIANS WHIM. Paranoia...and why not? Our government is far from perfect, it has consistently raped its citizens of consitutional protections and it's only getting worse. They could do that with most people right now if they wanted to... All they have to do is call Visa & MasterCard...wrong...they can't just call a CC company, we have a thing called privacy in this country, this isn't North Korea...there are systems in place that prevent the government from just prying into our private lives..it isn't just a phone call away The last thing I'm worried about is the government coming up with some horrifically expensive plan to monitor how many times I go to Wal Mart...it isn't about monitoring your wal-mart visits...it's about being able to have a control on all of your actions if need be There are better, cheaper ways to spy on people... Of course, these do not inspire mass paranoia in the same way that your above 'scheme' does....cheaper?, since when has our government downgraded their spending? Think about it this way: The typical member of this site has: Driver's License CCW Permit/License C&R License Social Security Number POV registration... At least 1 major credit card At least one bank account At least one telephone If the government wanted to track you, they can do so just as easily with or without national ID... Remember: the BANK owns your transaction records, you DON'T... Banks cannot just surrender your transactions over to the gov without a reason So let's cut the paranoia crap... It's not about tracking people... Sci-fi bullshit...Oh Really, so you must be in charge, or perhaps you started the committee and you know all intents and purposes.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fascist propaganda? You presume the government would even want to track you... [foilhat] It's not about the government tracking anybody... It's about the ability of business owners to do business (esp business involving non-cash payment, which is 90+% of our economy) without getting ripped off... It's about making sure that everyone who gets a legal job is legally employable... It's about making sure that only YOU can spend your money & use your credit... Oh, but you're worried that 'Big Brother' wants to track your movements and count the number of purchases you made from Sportsman's Guide... Someone's delusional... Because the government has never abused power or kept records of totally innocent people before. COINTELPRO  <== read. The Final report of the Church Committee concluded:    "Too many people have been spied upon by too many Government agencies and too much information has been collected. The Government has often undertaken the secret surveillance of citizens on the basis of their political beliefs, even when those beliefs posed no threat of violence or illegal acts on behalf of a hostile foreign power. The Government, operating primarily through secret informants, but also using other intrusive techniques such as wiretaps, microphone "bugs", surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, has swept in vast amounts of information about the personal lives, views, and associations of American citizens. Investigations of groups deemed potentially dangerous -- and even of groups suspected of associating with potentially dangerous organizations -- have continued for decades, despite the fact that those groups did not engage in unlawful activity. Groups and individuals have been harassed and disrupted because of their political views and their lifestyles. Investigations have been based upon vague standards whose breadth made excessive collection inevitable. Unsavory and vicious tactics have been employed -- including anonymous attempts to break up marriages, disrupt meetings, ostracize persons from their professions, and provoke target groups into rivalries that might result in deaths. Intelligence agencies have served the political and personal objectives of presidents and other high officials. While the agencies often committed excesses in response to pressure from high officials in the Executive branch and Congress, they also occasionally initiated improper activities and then concealed them from officials whom they had a duty to inform.    Governmental officials -- including those whose principal duty is to enforce the law --have violated or ignored the law over long periods of time and have advocated and defended their right to break the law.    The Constitutional system of checks and balances has not adequately controlled intelligence activities. Until recently the Executive branch has neither delineated the scope of permissible activities nor established procedures for supervising intelligence agencies. Congress has failed to exercise sufficient oversight, seldom questioning the use to which its appropriations were being put. Most domestic intelligence issues have not reached the courts, and in those cases when they have reached the courts, the judiciary has been reluctant to grapple with them." Get real. A new system would have more holes than the old one. Don't think for a second that any technology is immune to being hacked and picked a part. People do this as a hobbie. Its why the diebold voting machines have been hacked its why every video game system that comes out gets hacked in weeks of release without the use of insider information or knowledge of their brand new proprietary hardware and software. Its why windows software constantly gets hacked despite Microsoft keeping its source code closed. There are legions of people that find weak points in large public systems for fun. Take for example New Yorks MTA. Read a 2600 or two next time you're at the bookstore. While you're at it pick up the Art of Deception and the Art of Intrusion both by Kevin Mitnick If you ask me we should get rid of the broke Social Security system all together. Therefore no more abuse. If credit card companies want to issue their own for of identification for purposes of credit thats fine. But leave the government out of it. You do realize that you're quoting the one man most responsible for destroying our national intelligence agencies? Frank Church fucked us over good... In the name of 'oversight' of course...

you sort of missed the entire point of the abuse of power by the government for years simply because they could. they took a steaming shit on the Constitution and many American's Civil Rights.

Quoted: We don't have these problems in the military... And we're using the exact system that needs to be run nationwide, right now... Both myself & 11Badass use it every day, here in Korea... The military uses it to control access to bases, for computer logins, and to allow the encryption/signature of emals... It works... People's data doesn't get 'lost', and no one's hacked into the system and added 'new' IDs... It's not a front-end  system like all the hack examples that have been posted in this thread (Xbox, DVDs, etc - none of that stuff 'phones home' to validate) so it IS pretty well hack-proof.. Why would it be any different on a national scale?

like 3 min of searching.


www.usatoday.com/tech/news/computersecurity/2004-08-30-cyber-crime_x.htm

www.pentagon.gov/releases/2006/nr20060428-12920.html

www.hackinthebox.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=20576

www.hackinthebox.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=20138

www.hackinthebox.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=19023

Oh you might like this one.
www.hackinthebox.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=20009

Hackers steal data from Defense Department’s Tricare computers Computer hackers obtained Social Security numbers, credit card information and other personal data for thousands of active and retired service members after hacking into the Defense Department’s Tricare Management Activity system in early April, Pentagon officials said Friday. Officials the personal information of more than 14,000 active and retired service members and dependents had fallen into the wrong hands. Along with Social Security numbers, hackers tapped into records that included names, partial credit card numbers and some private employer information and personal health information, said Air Force Maj. Michael Shavers, a Pentagon spokesman. The Pentagon said routine monitoring of the Tricare Management Activity’s public servers on April 5 resulted in the discovery of an intrusion and that the personal records had been compromised, leaving open the possibility of identity theft among the members affected. The information contained in the files varied and investigators do not know what, if any, criminal intent the perpetrators had, or if the information would be misused.

Quoted: Quoted: We don't have these problems in the military... And we're using the exact system that needs to be run nationwide, right now... Both myself & 11Badass use it every day, here in Korea... The military uses it to control access to bases, for computer logins, and to allow the encryption/signature of emals... It works... People's data doesn't get 'lost', and no one's hacked into the system and added 'new' IDs... It's not a front-end  system like all the hack examples that have been posted in this thread (Xbox, DVDs, etc - none of that stuff 'phones home' to validate) so it IS pretty well hack-proof.. Why would it be any different on a national scale? like 3 min of searching. www.usatoday.com/tech/news/computersecurity/2004-08-30-cyber-crime_x.htm www.pentagon.gov/releases/2006/nr20060428-12920.html www.hackinthebox.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=20576 www.hackinthebox.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=20138 www.hackinthebox.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=19023 Oh you might like this one. www.hackinthebox.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=20009 Hackers steal data from Defense Department’s Tricare computers Computer hackers obtained Social Security numbers, credit card information and other personal data for thousands of active and retired service members after hacking into the Defense Department’s Tricare Management Activity system in early April, Pentagon officials said Friday. Officials the personal information of more than 14,000 active and retired service members and dependents had fallen into the wrong hands. Along with Social Security numbers, hackers tapped into records that included names, partial credit card numbers and some private employer information and personal health information, said Air Force Maj. Michael Shavers, a Pentagon spokesman. The Pentagon said routine monitoring of the Tricare Management Activity’s public servers on April 5 resulted in the discovery of an intrusion and that the personal records had been compromised, leaving open the possibility of identity theft among the members affected. The information contained in the files varied and investigators do not know what, if any, criminal intent the perpetrators had, or if the information would be misused.

That's not the CAC system... What you saw there is 100% possible (and more likely) at the state/local/commercial level, using the present system...

The whole point of the smart-card ID is that it makes the above info useless - they can steal all they want, but can't do anything with the data...

Try again...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is the problem with a single National ID.   You will be COMPELLED to use it when: You buy something.  (the government knows now everything you buy) When you travel.  (the government knows where you are) Imagine having to use your National ID to get on a bus, to buy gas at a gas station, to use a toll booth on the highway, to get on a plane, to get on a subway, even taking it as far as to unlock your own house. Imagine the government knowing EVERYTHING you buy, even ammo, guns, tannerite.  Buy the wrong things that the "GOVERNMENT" thinks is "wrong" and you become a person of interest to them.   Boom, with a national ID they know exactly where you are at all times and can come pick your ass up.  (Minority Report:  you have not committed a crime, YOU MIGHT) And don't forget, depending who is in power in the GOVERNMENT, they can CHANGE the definitions at ANY TIME about what type of purchases or BEHAVIOR.   Thus at any time you could become a target of the .gov based on a POLITICIANS WHIM. Paranoia... They could do that with most people right now if they wanted to... All they have to do is call Visa & MasterCard... The last thing I'm worried about is the government coming up with some horrifically expensive plan to monitor how many times I go to Wal Mart... There are better, cheaper ways to spy on people... Of course, these do not inspire mass paranoia in the same way that your above 'scheme' does.... Think about it this way: The typical member of this site has: Driver's License CCW Permit/License C&R License Social Security Number POV registration... At least 1 major credit card At least one bank account At least one telephone If the government wanted to track you, they can do so just as easily with or without national ID... Remember: the BANK owns your transaction records, you DON'T... So let's cut the paranoia crap... It's not about tracking people... Sci-fi bullshit... JESUS CHRIST!!! It is NOT paranoia CRAP.  If you WANTED to you could pretty much DUMP all those items above and still live within society.Oh really? No car, no house, no credit... You do realize companies use credit checks in employment decisions, these days? And where are you going to put that cash, under your mattress? If you use cash, then nothing to it.  If you want to drive, have a DL, but when you are REQUIRED to use an ID card to DO ANYTHING, like in Singapore (I think it is), you can be tracked almost INSTANTLY. To get credit, to open a bank account, to legally get a job (2 forms - easily forged, but still required) etc... Essential functions of most folks lives... What if AR15.com suddenly gets deemed a threat to National Security? What if anyone who purchases over 500 rounds of ammo is a potential terror threat? Are you a member of a Gun Club? Are you a member of any RKBA association? You could be a "terrorist" This is NOT sci-fi BULLSHIT, these are LAWS that are trying to get PASSED right NOW. No, it's bullshit... It's about as realistic as Ron Paul getting the US back on gold standard... If you want big brother to track you, shove a GPS up your ass and give them all your guns, but I prefer to live in anonimity, because I don't do anything wrong. I prefer to be able to be reasonably sure no one's impersonating me, and that my credit is mine alone to use... There is NO society on this earth that you would consider free if everything the citizens there did was based upon their ID. The two are completely independant. A modern credit-based economy requires verifiable ID, and verifiable ID does not neccicarily equate to government tracking you... A yes-valid or no-invalid does not give them a location-of-request, or anything else - just 'is it legit' You really have no clue how BADLY one segment of society wants to control everything.  For that I am sorry and I hope that one day you can explain that to your progeny, that you did not realize how bad it was. I feel that plenty of folks over-state this...

Quoted: Quoted: Hell, the SSN is completely unverifiable....But yet we use it as if it's a valid form of ID... Hmm, that MIGHT just be something to fix... Yeah, despite the fact that there are federal laws prohibiting use of the SSN as a form of ID. It is illegal for any entity to require you to provide an SSN without offering you an alternative form of identification. You can get credit cards, buy guns and apply for loans without having to submit your SSN.

Actually, no. The requirement for the SSN to stay between the employer, employee, and federal government was done away with A LONG TIME AGO.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What about the illegal aliens who don't need/want a drivers license? They'd be unemployable, unable to open bank accounts, get credit, purchase titled property, OR RECEIVE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS... Thus, they'd pack up & go back, because without a card you'd be 100% locked out of the legal economy... What about US citizens who don't need/want a drivers license? A non-driving, ID-only version would be available, just like it is now... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't get one? No, but they'd be unable to work, open a bank or credit account, buy a house or car, drive, etc... The price of anonymity is that no one wants to do business with you, for liability reasons.... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't carry their papers? The rules would be no different than the present driver's license system - you carry it if you need it. this is nothing more than the US government taking a giant step down the road to serfdom. Being able to prove who you are has nothing to do with 'serfdom'... It's no different than the present system, just harder to fake & standardized/unified nationwide so if it isn't a crime if you don't get one (including the ID-only version), how do you differentiate between a brown looking citizen and an illegal alien?  are you going to arrest him since he doesn't have papers?

No, if he can find a way to live life with no credit, no bank accounts, no job, and no license-required vehicles, without breaking any law presently on the books...

You don't have to make the card mandatory to carry at all times, or to posess..

You just require it for all transactions where the parties involved need to verify ID...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fascist propaganda? You presume the government would even want to track you... [foilhat] It's not about the government tracking anybody... It's about the ability of business owners to do business (esp business involving non-cash payment, which is 90+% of our economy) without getting ripped off... It's about making sure that everyone who gets a legal job is legally employable... It's about making sure that only YOU can spend your money & use your credit... Oh, but you're worried that 'Big Brother' wants to track your movements and count the number of purchases you made from Sportsman's Guide... Someone's delusional... Because the government has never abused power or kept records of totally innocent people before. COINTELPRO  <== read. The Final report of the Church Committee concluded:    "Too many people have been spied upon by too many Government agencies and too much information has been collected. The Government has often undertaken the secret surveillance of citizens on the basis of their political beliefs, even when those beliefs posed no threat of violence or illegal acts on behalf of a hostile foreign power. The Government, operating primarily through secret informants, but also using other intrusive techniques such as wiretaps, microphone "bugs", surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, has swept in vast amounts of information about the personal lives, views, and associations of American citizens. Investigations of groups deemed potentially dangerous -- and even of groups suspected of associating with potentially dangerous organizations -- have continued for decades, despite the fact that those groups did not engage in unlawful activity. Groups and individuals have been harassed and disrupted because of their political views and their lifestyles. Investigations have been based upon vague standards whose breadth made excessive collection inevitable. Unsavory and vicious tactics have been employed -- including anonymous attempts to break up marriages, disrupt meetings, ostracize persons from their professions, and provoke target groups into rivalries that might result in deaths. Intelligence agencies have served the political and personal objectives of presidents and other high officials. While the agencies often committed excesses in response to pressure from high officials in the Executive branch and Congress, they also occasionally initiated improper activities and then concealed them from officials whom they had a duty to inform.    Governmental officials -- including those whose principal duty is to enforce the law --have violated or ignored the law over long periods of time and have advocated and defended their right to break the law.    The Constitutional system of checks and balances has not adequately controlled intelligence activities. Until recently the Executive branch has neither delineated the scope of permissible activities nor established procedures for supervising intelligence agencies. Congress has failed to exercise sufficient oversight, seldom questioning the use to which its appropriations were being put. Most domestic intelligence issues have not reached the courts, and in those cases when they have reached the courts, the judiciary has been reluctant to grapple with them." Get real. A new system would have more holes than the old one. Don't think for a second that any technology is immune to being hacked and picked a part. People do this as a hobbie. Its why the diebold voting machines have been hacked its why every video game system that comes out gets hacked in weeks of release without the use of insider information or knowledge of their brand new proprietary hardware and software. Its why windows software constantly gets hacked despite Microsoft keeping its source code closed. There are legions of people that find weak points in large public systems for fun. Take for example New Yorks MTA. Read a 2600 or two next time you're at the bookstore. While you're at it pick up the Art of Deception and the Art of Intrusion both by Kevin Mitnick If you ask me we should get rid of the broke Social Security system all together. Therefore no more abuse. If credit card companies want to issue their own for of identification for purposes of credit thats fine. But leave the government out of it. You do realize that you're quoting the one man most responsible for destroying our national intelligence agencies? Frank Church fucked us over good... In the name of 'oversight' of course... you sort of missed the entire point of the abuse of power by the government for years simply because they could. they took a steaming shit on the Constitution and many American's Civil Rights.

You know, I'm not really concerned with the 'civil rights' of foreign citizens in foreign countries (Vietnam) or foreign agents within the USA...

Church screwed us, period....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What about the illegal aliens who don't need/want a drivers license? They'd be unemployable, unable to open bank accounts, get credit, purchase titled property, OR RECEIVE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS... Thus, they'd pack up & go back, because without a card you'd be 100% locked out of the legal economy... What about US citizens who don't need/want a drivers license? A non-driving, ID-only version would be available, just like it is now... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't get one? No, but they'd be unable to work, open a bank or credit account, buy a house or car, drive, etc... The price of anonymity is that no one wants to do business with you, for liability reasons.... Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't carry their papers? The rules would be no different than the present driver's license system - you carry it if you need it. this is nothing more than the US government taking a giant step down the road to serfdom. Being able to prove who you are has nothing to do with 'serfdom'... It's no different than the present system, just harder to fake & standardized/unified nationwide so if it isn't a crime if you don't get one (including the ID-only version), how do you differentiate between a brown looking citizen and an illegal alien?  are you going to arrest him since he doesn't have papers? No, if he can find a way to live life with no credit, no bank accounts, no job, and no license-required vehicles, without breaking any law presently on the books... You don't have to make the card mandatory to carry at all times, or to posess.. You just require it for all transactions where the parties involved need to verify ID...

Key word-"presently".

You bet your ass their will be laws passed where you can't even take a shit in a public restroom without a national id card.

Fuck it,I'm getting to the age where I really don't give a crap and probably won't be around to see it anyway.Best of luck with your Socialist Police State Utopia.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fascist propaganda? You presume the government would even want to track you... [foilhat] It's not about the government tracking anybody... It's about the ability of business owners to do business (esp business involving non-cash payment, which is 90+% of our economy) without getting ripped off... It's about making sure that everyone who gets a legal job is legally employable... It's about making sure that only YOU can spend your money & use your credit... Oh, but you're worried that 'Big Brother' wants to track your movements and count the number of purchases you made from Sportsman's Guide... Someone's delusional... Because the government has never abused power or kept records of totally innocent people before. COINTELPRO  <== read. The Final report of the Church Committee concluded:    "Too many people have been spied upon by too many Government agencies and too much information has been collected. The Government has often undertaken the secret surveillance of citizens on the basis of their political beliefs, even when those beliefs posed no threat of violence or illegal acts on behalf of a hostile foreign power. The Government, operating primarily through secret informants, but also using other intrusive techniques such as wiretaps, microphone "bugs", surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, has swept in vast amounts of information about the personal lives, views, and associations of American citizens. Investigations of groups deemed potentially dangerous -- and even of groups suspected of associating with potentially dangerous organizations -- have continued for decades, despite the fact that those groups did not engage in unlawful activity. Groups and individuals have been harassed and disrupted because of their political views and their lifestyles. Investigations have been based upon vague standards whose breadth made excessive collection inevitable. Unsavory and vicious tactics have been employed -- including anonymous attempts to break up marriages, disrupt meetings, ostracize persons from their professions, and provoke target groups into rivalries that might result in deaths. Intelligence agencies have served the political and personal objectives of presidents and other high officials. While the agencies often committed excesses in response to pressure from high officials in the Executive branch and Congress, they also occasionally initiated improper activities and then concealed them from officials whom they had a duty to inform.    Governmental officials -- including those whose principal duty is to enforce the law --have violated or ignored the law over long periods of time and have advocated and defended their right to break the law.    The Constitutional system of checks and balances has not adequately controlled intelligence activities. Until recently the Executive branch has neither delineated the scope of permissible activities nor established procedures for supervising intelligence agencies. Congress has failed to exercise sufficient oversight, seldom questioning the use to which its appropriations were being put. Most domestic intelligence issues have not reached the courts, and in those cases when they have reached the courts, the judiciary has been reluctant to grapple with them." Get real. A new system would have more holes than the old one. Don't think for a second that any technology is immune to being hacked and picked a part. People do this as a hobbie. Its why the diebold voting machines have been hacked its why every video game system that comes out gets hacked in weeks of release without the use of insider information or knowledge of their brand new proprietary hardware and software. Its why windows software constantly gets hacked despite Microsoft keeping its source code closed. There are legions of people that find weak points in large public systems for fun. Take for example New Yorks MTA. Read a 2600 or two next time you're at the bookstore. While you're at it pick up the Art of Deception and the Art of Intrusion both by Kevin Mitnick If you ask me we should get rid of the broke Social Security system all together. Therefore no more abuse. If credit card companies want to issue their own for of identification for purposes of credit thats fine. But leave the government out of it. You do realize that you're quoting the one man most responsible for destroying our national intelligence agencies? Frank Church fucked us over good... In the name of 'oversight' of course... you sort of missed the entire point of the abuse of power by the government for years simply because they could. they took a steaming shit on the Constitution and many American's Civil Rights.

No,he is part of the government and I'm sure he would enforce any law,Constitutional or not,that he was told to.

Quoted: No,he is part of the government and I'm sure he would enforce any law,Constitutional or not,that he was told to.

I'm starting to think that too.

Come on Dave_A, there have been some pretty good arguments against REALID and really nothing for it. What will it accomplish that isn't accomplished now already? Look at the bill in its original form, that was the true purpose of it. was to create a National drivers license that would've been linked to Mexico and Canada for the North American Union.

No one in the government can say this new system will be totally secure and unhackable. Especially when its using commonplace technology. No security expert in the world will claim a system is unbreakable. The fact you're claiming that proves you don't know what you're talking about. Simple fact is there are people that break systems as a hobby and there are people that get paid to do it. Don't forget groups of people that break systems for other Governments. such as China.


You totally missed the point with both examples. One showing the abuse of power has happened before and will happen again. Two indicating that those "secure systems" have all been broken into. Secure systems all have weaknesses and can be cracked. These were government and military systems, which should have been held to a higher standard  but were still cracked.



COINTELPRO saw the spying on INNOCENT people. You seem to focus on the other crap. Lets say you had some fetish for Korean whores and someone in the FBI knew it and didn't like you just because of your sexual preference. They then opened a file up on you and you and gathered all the information on you they could find. Then started harassing you in any manner they could. Getting the IRS to audit your ass. Break into you home and leave bugs. Record everything and anything you do or say. They leave evidence for your wife/girlfriend to find so they will know about your obsession with Korean hookers. They let your boss know, and put pressure to get you stationed elsewhere. so on and so forth. Anything to make your life miserable.


Americans do have a Right to privacy.

Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment IX The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. Amendment X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Quoted: Quoted: No,he is part of the government and I'm sure he would enforce any law,Constitutional or not,that he was told to. I'm starting to think that too. Come on Dave_A, there have been some pretty good arguments against REALID and really nothing for it. What will it accomplish that isn't accomplished now already? Look at the bill in its original form, that was the true purpose of it. was to create a National drivers license that would've been linked to Mexico and Canada for the North American Union. No one in the government can say this new system will be totally secure and unhackable. Especially when its using commonplace technology. No security expert in the world will claim a system is unbreakable. The fact you're claiming that proves you don't know what you're talking about. Simple fact is there are people that break systems as a hobby and there are people that get paid to do it. Don't forget groups of people that break systems for other Governments. such as China. You totally missed the point with both examples. One showing the abuse of power has happened before and will happen again. Two indicating that those "secure systems" have all been broken into. Secure systems all have weaknesses and can be cracked. These were government and military systems, which should have been held to a higher standard  but were still cracked. COINTELPRO saw the spying on INNOCENT people. You seem to focus on the other crap. Lets say you had some fetish for Korean whores and someone in the FBI knew it and didn't like you just because of your sexual preference. They then opened a file up on you and you and gathered all the information on you they could find. Then started harassing you in any manner they could. Getting the IRS to audit your ass. Break into you home and leave bugs. Record everything and anything you do or say. They leave evidence for your wife/girlfriend to find so they will know about your obsession with Korean hookers. They let your boss know, and put pressure to get you stationed elsewhere. so on and so forth. Anything to make your life miserable. Americans do have a Right to privacy. Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Amendment IX The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. Amendment X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

1) I'm not advocating RealID...

I'm advocating a proven, secure-enough system... Secure enough that we trust it to control access to our military bases, and to classified information.

There is no reason it can't be used to validate identities for employment, credit/financial, or entry/exit purposes...

No reason why it couldn't be used to replace the pile of various traceable ID cards we all already have...

2) Government abuses can happen just as easily now... The issues you posted are not at all related to ID...

3) There are too many private party transactions today that require verification of identity, and no system in place to provide such verification... The fact is, you don't know who you're giving credit to, who you're hiring, or who you're doing business with... You should be able to verify this... The reason for 'National ID' is to secure and validate commercial transactions between individuals - not to allow government to 'track' you...

In fact, the system can be built so that no 'tracking' more precise than what city or neighborhood you are in is possible (eg if it's an open access system, similar to the ATF"s EzCheck)... It all depends on how you design it...


4) Security wise, nothing is unhackable... But you CAN make it secure enough to keep the common criminals and terrorists out... Such a system (Based on the present CAC ID) will be secure ENOUGH that if you are engaging in the economic activities I mentioned above all participants can be sure of each other's identities, and in the case of employment the legal status of the employee can be ensured (it eliminates the 'But I didn't know' excuse)....

Paranoids aside, there's no reason NOT to do it...

5) None of the Constitutional provisions you posted confer an absolute right to privacy. The 5th applies to criminal procedure and gives a requirement for warrants in search/siezure cases... Requiring validation of ID to get employment or open a financial account is neither a search nor a seizure - it's common sense....

The 9th does absolutely nothing at present (having no precedent or application on the books)... It's also the one amendment most in need of repeal, if the libs ever 'discover' it you will see court rulings conferring the 'right' to a job, or to health care, or to a house, etc... Socialism by judicial fiat... Hmm, great amendment, eh?

And the 10th sets the pecking order (Feds first, then states, finally the people get everything left over)....

Simple fact is that the US Government is already too large and intrusive. Let's not make it easier for them to intrude even more into our daily lives. Anyone that thinks life will be better by  fully involving the government  into every facet of your life is either a communist or a simpleton or both,  neither of which is beneficial to this country.