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Link Posted: 8/31/2011 3:49:55 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Quoted:

I still think Custer would have won that day (seizing the camp with non combatants) if Reno held his flank in the woods, keeping a whole lot of warriors busy, and if BENTEEN didnt advance twice slower than he should have by military rules, and if he went to the sound of the battle, as the same rules state he should have been going..

That day, Custer was betrayed by these 2 men... even if his plan wasnt perfect.


Even the the Lakotha warriors admit that Reno could have held inside the woods, and there is no doubt that the support of Benteen would have changed the outcome of the main battle..



I completely agree. I don't think they were in error, I think Reno was a coward and that Benteen was a chickenshit coward.


Based on everything I have read on this subject (which is considerable), I agree with the above assessments with one qualifier:

Both Benteen and Reno disliked Custer - and in Benteen's case, it was more like actual hatred.
Reno's initial, spoiling attack against the southern flank of the Lakota position was a disaster, but as noted, Reno could probably have held a fall-back position on the west side of the Little Big Horn if he didn't cut and run.
Reno was drinking heavily that day by the way - which was witnessed by several of his men.  Had Reno held a line on the west side of the LBH, it would have taken considerable pressure off of Custer's element when
the latter began his attack.  In the event, though, ALL of the Sioux shifted north to meet Custer's advance once Reno had forfeited the field.

As for Benteen, there is almost no doubt that his hatred of Custer influenced his decision not to try and link up with Custer's element and reinforce him.At the Court of Inquiry that was held in 1878 (if memory serves - thereabouts anyway), Benteen insisted that he had no idea that Custer's element was in trouble further to his north, and that is why he decided to remain where he was, in a defensive position with what was left of Reno's command.  Major Reno, BTW, was in such a sorry state by this point that even though Captain Benteen was junior in rank, Benteen pretty much relieved him of command and was making all the decisions.

However, some of Benteen's own soldiers testified that they heard intense gunfire coming from the north, and they all felt that Custer was in trouble and that Benteen should have done something.

Benteen was exonerated by the Court of Inquiry because the Army wanted to sweep the affair under the rug.  The Democrats were in control of Congress at the time, and they were debating the military budget, which they wanted to cut to the bone.  The Army did not want any embarrassing questions about the cavalry corps being raised by Congress at the time, nor did they want to embarrass higher ranking officers in the Bureau of Indian Affairs.



Thats why I said Benteen was a chickenshit coward. Custer repremanded him, he hated Custer. I think Benteen let him and his command die.
Reno's behavior (and drinking) continued to degrade throughout the day (and night).
Have you also read that Reno reportedly pulled a trooper off his horse to escape the dell?
Link Posted: 8/31/2011 6:39:55 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I still think Custer would have won that day (seizing the camp with non combatants) if Reno held his flank in the woods, keeping a whole lot of warriors busy, and if BENTEEN didnt advance twice slower than he should have by military rules, and if he went to the sound of the battle, as the same rules state he should have been going..

That day, Custer was betrayed by these 2 men... even if his plan wasnt perfect.


Even the the Lakotha warriors admit that Reno could have held inside the woods, and there is no doubt that the support of Benteen would have changed the outcome of the main battle..



I completely agree. I don't think they were in error, I think Reno was a coward and that Benteen was a chickenshit coward.


Based on everything I have read on this subject (which is considerable), I agree with the above assessments with one qualifier:

Both Benteen and Reno disliked Custer - and in Benteen's case, it was more like actual hatred.
Reno's initial, spoiling attack against the southern flank of the Lakota position was a disaster, but as noted, Reno could probably have held a fall-back position on the west side of the Little Big Horn if he didn't cut and run.
Reno was drinking heavily that day by the way - which was witnessed by several of his men.  Had Reno held a line on the west side of the LBH, it would have taken considerable pressure off of Custer's element when
the latter began his attack.  In the event, though, ALL of the Sioux shifted north to meet Custer's advance once Reno had forfeited the field.

As for Benteen, there is almost no doubt that his hatred of Custer influenced his decision not to try and link up with Custer's element and reinforce him.At the Court of Inquiry that was held in 1878 (if memory serves - thereabouts anyway), Benteen insisted that he had no idea that Custer's element was in trouble further to his north, and that is why he decided to remain where he was, in a defensive position with what was left of Reno's command.  Major Reno, BTW, was in such a sorry state by this point that even though Captain Benteen was junior in rank, Benteen pretty much relieved him of command and was making all the decisions.

However, some of Benteen's own soldiers testified that they heard intense gunfire coming from the north, and they all felt that Custer was in trouble and that Benteen should have done something.

Benteen was exonerated by the Court of Inquiry because the Army wanted to sweep the affair under the rug.  The Democrats were in control of Congress at the time, and they were debating the military budget, which they wanted to cut to the bone.  The Army did not want any embarrassing questions about the cavalry corps being raised by Congress at the time, nor did they want to embarrass higher ranking officers in the Bureau of Indian Affairs.



Thats why I said Benteen was a chickenshit coward. Custer repremanded him, he hated Custer. I think Benteen let him and his command die.
Reno's behavior (and drinking) continued to degrade throughout the day (and night).
Have you also read that Reno reportedly pulled a trooper off his horse to escape the dell?


It's been awhile, but yes, I believe I read that story as well.

I hate to speak ill of the dead when I wasn't there to see for myself and judge, but based on the record of all the eyewitnesses who were (which is all we have to judge by 135 years later), Reno's entire conduct as a leader on the field that day was terrible.

I also read that after he had escaped to the butte overlooking the river on the east side, and the hostiles had stopped pursuing him, he told one of his men that he thought his attack had been "a success."  The man he said that to was astounded that Reno could have considered such a disasterous rout a "success."

Link Posted: 8/31/2011 6:46:43 PM EDT
[#3]



Quoted:



Quoted:

Still trying to get more info on exact date of this picture.  My great-grandpa is the one on the left standing in the cab with the hat on.  Department of Forestry, unknown area, probably Angeles Nat'l Forest.  





http://tylerlewis.zenfolio.com/img/v27/p71458891-5.jpg




A guess would be WPA work party that he was incharge of.



Alot could be told by the make and year of the truck, maybe somebody could chime in if they know what it is.


Yeah I'm not real good on old truck identification like that.  Hadn't though of WPA either.  Going to ask my uncle the next time I see him.  The pic was scanned after we found a few pictures along with safety razors, old cameras, etc in my great grandpa's things.



 
Link Posted: 8/31/2011 6:59:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Still trying to get more info on exact date of this picture.  My great-grandpa is the one on the left standing in the cab with the hat on.  Department of Forestry, unknown area, probably Angeles Nat'l Forest.  


http://tylerlewis.zenfolio.com/img/v27/p71458891-5.jpg


A guess would be WPA work party that he was incharge of.

Alot could be told by the make and year of the truck, maybe somebody could chime in if they know what it is.

Yeah I'm not real good on old truck identification like that.  Hadn't though of WPA either.  Going to ask my uncle the next time I see him.  The pic was scanned after we found a few pictures along with safety razors, old cameras, etc in my great grandpa's things.
 


I'll give you about a 95% chance that that is a WPA project they are working on.

Link Posted: 8/31/2011 7:27:07 PM EDT
[#5]



Quoted:



Quoted:




Quoted:


Quoted:

Still trying to get more info on exact date of this picture.  My great-grandpa is the one on the left standing in the cab with the hat on.  Department of Forestry, unknown area, probably Angeles Nat'l Forest.  





http://tylerlewis.zenfolio.com/img/v27/p71458891-5.jpg




A guess would be WPA work party that he was incharge of.



Alot could be told by the make and year of the truck, maybe somebody could chime in if they know what it is.


Yeah I'm not real good on old truck identification like that.  Hadn't though of WPA either.  Going to ask my uncle the next time I see him.  The pic was scanned after we found a few pictures along with safety razors, old cameras, etc in my great grandpa's things.

 




I'll give you about a 95% chance that that is a WPA project they are working on.





Great-grandpa was born in 1900 so WPA could be right.  I have another picture that I misplaced, going to go attic diving tomorrow.  Will call Uncle this weekend.  I never even knew about WPA, good call though.  Will update.  Thanks for the tip :)



 
Link Posted: 8/31/2011 7:56:44 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:





From the archives (not my photos):









http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/046.jpg




By lllingworth, 1874, during Black Hills expedition. 77-HQ-264-847.





I can add to this one.




Custer's expedition through the Black Hills was one of the first expeditions that utilized photography to document their travels and discoveries.




I want to say that this expedition took 240 or so photos throughout this area.




A group of photographers have published a book where they have found the exact places where these photos were originally taken.  




I believe they are still missing roughly 60.

^ This was taken very near Bear Butte.

^ I like how the burned stumps from an old forest fire are still there a hundred plus years later.  And a highway replaced the wagon train.

^ LOTS more trees now.  Of course since 2000, they're all brown now from pine beetles.
 
 
 
 
Link Posted: 8/31/2011 8:04:16 PM EDT
[#7]
^ Cool Pics
Link Posted: 8/31/2011 8:09:05 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm 90% sure that the truck is a 1939 Chevrolet.
Link Posted: 8/31/2011 8:12:25 PM EDT
[#9]


Link Posted: 8/31/2011 8:26:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Not a photo, but always liked this old west painting by Frederic Remington.

"Buffalo Runners - Big Horn Basin"



Link Posted: 9/1/2011 1:07:58 AM EDT
[#11]
A neat idea for a thread!
Link Posted: 9/1/2011 2:42:52 AM EDT
[#12]
However, some of Benteen's own soldiers testified that they heard intense gunfire coming from the north, and they all felt that Custer was in trouble and that Benteen should have done something.


Major Weir had to insist a lot to be able to move with a detachment to help Custer.. By the time he reached the point he could see the battle (Weir point ) it was too late...

Wasn't Weir "suicided" before he could talk at the trial ?
Link Posted: 9/1/2011 3:19:22 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:

Quoted:
From the archives (not my photos):

http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/046.jpg
By lllingworth, 1874, during Black Hills expedition. 77-HQ-264-847.


I can add to this one.
Custer's expedition through the Black Hills was one of the first expeditions that utilized photography to document their travels and discoveries.
I want to say that this expedition took 240 or so photos throughout this area.
A group of photographers have published a book where they have found the exact places where these photos were originally taken.  
I believe they are still missing roughly 60.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/olds-mo-boo-ble/exploringwcusterfirstgrizzly.jpg

^ This was taken very near Bear Butte.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/olds-mo-boo-ble/exploringwcuster.jpg

^ I like how the burned stumps from an old forest fire are still there a hundred plus years later.  And a highway replaced the wagon train.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/olds-mo-boo-ble/exploringwcusteroranpiperange.jpg

^ LOTS more trees now.  Of course since 2000, they're all brown now from pine beetles.

       



This is amazing !!! Are these places located on some map you can buy ???
Link Posted: 9/1/2011 3:39:02 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:

Quoted:
From the archives (not my photos):

http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/046.jpg
By lllingworth, 1874, during Black Hills expedition. 77-HQ-264-847.


I can add to this one.
Custer's expedition through the Black Hills was one of the first expeditions that utilized photography to document their travels and discoveries.
I want to say that this expedition took 240 or so photos throughout this area.
A group of photographers have published a book where they have found the exact places where these photos were originally taken.  
I believe they are still missing roughly 60.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/olds-mo-boo-ble/exploringwcusterfirstgrizzly.jpg

^ This was taken very near Bear Butte.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/olds-mo-boo-ble/exploringwcuster.jpg

^ I like how the burned stumps from an old forest fire are still there a hundred plus years later.  And a highway replaced the wagon train.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/olds-mo-boo-ble/exploringwcusteroranpiperange.jpg

^ LOTS more trees now.  Of course since 2000, they're all brown now from pine beetles.

       



Awesome!
Link Posted: 9/1/2011 7:17:36 AM EDT
[#15]
Great thread
Link Posted: 9/1/2011 3:12:37 PM EDT
[#16]







Quoted:
This is amazing !!! Are these places located on some map you can buy ???







I haven't bought the book yet so I don't know how in-depth it is.



But it does look like it gives some idea where the photos were taken.
Here's the authors website page where you can buy the book if you want.
http://dakotaphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/2106854_sjLdc#108851731_XNoTZ





 
 
 
Link Posted: 9/1/2011 3:20:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Red Cloud and American Horse." The two most noted chiefs now living Two Oglala chiefs, American Horse (wearing western clothing and gun-in-holster) and Red Cloud (wearing headdress), full-length portrait, facing front, shaking hands in front of tipi––probably on or near Pine Ridge Reservation. 1891.



President Abraham Lincoln talking with General George B. McClellan at his headquarters
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 12:03:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Major bump for the weekend...


Also, what would have been the difference if Reno had stayed on the West of the LBH ( in the open) instead of moving up the hill to dig hasty fighting positions and save his command? When I look at the battle in its entirety they were fucked from the get go, and this was due to Custer's bravado and nothing else. The responsibility falls on him and him alone. Good shoots on the natives part IMHO.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 12:13:37 PM EDT
[#19]



Quoted:



Quoted:

From the archives (not my photos):



http://media.nara.gov/media/images/43/6/43-0503a.gif

"Brig. Gen. Frank Wheaton, U.S. Army [standing center with white plume in hat], with officers and members of their families, Fort Walla Walla, Wash. Terr., 1874~." 111-SC-83652.

http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/046.jpg

By lllingworth, 1874, during Black Hills expedition. 77-HQ-264-847.

http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/049.jpg

"Gen. Crook's headquarters in the field at Whitewood [Dak. Terr.]. On starvation march 1876." Closeup of a camp scene shows tents improvised from wagon frames during the Black Hills expedition. 165-FF-2F-12.

http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/050.jpg

"Scene of Gen. Custer's last stand, looking in the direction of the ford and the Indian village." A pile of bones on the Little Big Horn battlefield is all that remains, ca. 1877. 111-SC-82966.

http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/053.jpg

"Execution of a soldier of the 8th Infantry at Prescott, Arizona, 1877." 111-SC-87810

http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/057.jpg

Troop`C,' 5th Cavalry, which arrested boomers and squatters prior to opening of Oklahoma, ca. 1888. 111-SC-87369.

http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/060.jpg

Officers in tent by fire during the Pine Ridge campaign, 1890––91. 111-SC-104138

http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/062.jpg

"Brig. Gen. Nelson A. Miles and Buffalo Bill viewing hostile Indian camp near Pine Ridge Agency, South Dakota." By Grabill, January 16, 1891. 111-SC-85680.





A note about one of those photographs.



General George Crook played a role in the Battle of the Little Big Horn.



Crook was marching northwards out of Fort Fetterman with a large force of cavalry along with some Crow scouts, at the same time that Custer was marching in a south westerly direction with the 7th Cav.



General Terry (in overall command) had intelligence that there was a large force of non-treaty Lakota Sioux led by Sitting Bull "somewhere" in the vicinity of the Powder River/Tongue River/Little Big Horn country, but no one knew

exactly where they were.



Terry's plan was to catch them in a pincer movement, with additional troops marching in from further west to cut off their retreat in that direction (so there were actually three prongs coming towards the hostiles).



Crook's force made contact with Sitting Bull's warriors before either of the other two "prongs" did, and a major battle - the Battle of the Rosebud - erupted, in which Crook's forces were overwhelmed by the size of the hostile indian camp, and he was forced to retreat.



This was the first indication that anyone had as to the exact size of Sitting Bull's forces.  Both Terry and Custer estimated their number at between 800 and 1500 (at most), but their actual number was well over 2000.



Because there was no modern command, control, and communications (C3) in those days, Terry and Custer had no way of knowing that Crook's element had already been overpowered and driven back.  (Today, of course, commanders would be passing this battlefield intelligence back and forth in real time).



Crook attempted to send a runner on horseback to link up with Custer's element and warn him, but because of the distance involved (and because the runner may have gotten lost in the wilderness which he was not familiar with), his warning never reached Custer in time.



well... that is after its been filtered through 5 colonels, 10 majors, a few generals, some random private, and a lowely bomb dog..





 
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:47:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Custer was an idiot; underestimate an enemy, overestimate your own capabilities, not on your home field, don't let your formations  develop before "surprise" attack. FAIL!!!
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