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Posted: 7/22/2013 11:27:27 AM EDT
[#1]
I guess the best example is that an indulgence is a bit like a re-baptism, but one that has almost impossible requirements to actually attain. The sacrament of reconciliation part of the requirements forgives the sins, and the indulgence removes the temporal punishment associated with them - so it is pretty much a true starting over. That said, doing the requirements of the indulgence to the best of your ability would almost always draw you closer to Christ. As such, they are still a great thing to do, even if the actual indulgence is never received.
There are hundreds of pious actions which are part of indulgences. But unfortunately, purchasing them is not on the list. Plus that last prerequisite just is a tough one - free from the desire to sin. I seriously doubt many people ever get that close to Christ during their lives on earth. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 11:28:19 AM EDT
[#2]
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"In the beginning God said let us......" Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Spade, I would have wasted way too many words and not said it as well as you did. Thanks.  Yup. I'll take any mention of 'trinity' or 'incarnation' while gwitness is scouring the scripture for prooftexts. "In the beginning God said let us......" But it doesn't say, In the beginniing God said let the trinity... |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 11:31:30 AM EDT
[#3]
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But it doesn't say, In the beginniing God said let the trinity... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Spade, I would have wasted way too many words and not said it as well as you did. Thanks. Yup. I'll take any mention of 'trinity' or 'incarnation' while gwitness is scouring the scripture for prooftexts. "In the beginning God said let us......" But it doesn't say, In the beginniing God said let the trinity... Ok..I'm game...who was God talking to?.....the angels? |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 11:34:23 AM EDT
[#4]
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uh-huh. btw..can you show me where [in the Bible] it is shown that an indulgence can get one out of purgatory?.......heck..I'll take any mention of purgatory for that matter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences" You can't buy an indulgence with money. You actually have to do stuff, like do a pilgrimage, or a set of prayers. And they don't get you out of hell. It's a purgatory thing. Wanna bet? I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one. Sure he did. I've been a Catholic for 31 years and I've never personally seen or heard of an indulgence being sold for money. When I lived in Alabama I was told at least 4 times that somebody's pastor bought one though. It's weird that a real Catholic can't find one for sale, but a Prod pastor can seem to find them everywhere. Funny that. ETA: No idea why you would pay money for one. They're not exactly difficult to get. It's not like every indulgence granting thing is equal to the Way of St. James or something. uh-huh. btw..can you show me where [in the Bible] it is shown that an indulgence can get one out of purgatory?.......heck..I'll take any mention of purgatory for that matter. So God no longer speaks to us? Or to our holy men? Just because it isn't in the Bible doesn't mean squat. Guess what, Noah's flood was in the Bible and I don't believe it. Do you actually think the Earth is only 6000 years ago and was completely flooded? Even in the worst parts of the Ice Age, there was still exposed land. And if the Bible is so infallble, why are you reading the English version? Read the Greek translation instead. Or maybe the Latin translation is most accurate. Or maybe God writes different versions for different cultures? |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 11:35:18 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "In the beginning God said let us......" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Spade, I would have wasted way too many words and not said it as well as you did. Thanks. Yup. I'll take any mention of 'trinity' or 'incarnation' while gwitness is scouring the scripture for prooftexts. "In the beginning God said let us......" Hell, it could even be a hold over from a earlier polytheistic creation myth. Really, it could mean anything you are willing to read into it. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 12:12:53 PM EDT
[#6]
All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place.
<----------- unashamed Protestant. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 12:19:46 PM EDT
[#7]
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Still missing the point......define what an indulgence is. and I want a biblical reference to indulgences and purgatory. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Misleading title is misleading. Indulgences do not get you out of Hell. Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences" Yes, the Church stopped selling them. However, you can still obtain indulgences by doing other things, such as reading the Bible or praying the Rosary. Still missing the point......define what an indulgence is. and I want a biblical reference to indulgences and purgatory. Show me a biblical reference defining the Bible. Show me a biblical reference saying that scripture is the only authority for a Christian to follow. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 12:22:14 PM EDT
[#8]
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All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. All what? |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 12:36:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. Because it's too easy to work in an idea called "purgatory" when people don't want to hear the truth of the finality of their actions on earth from the pulpit....because selling sin forgiveness was too profitable a scam to pass up....because having just one middleman to God the Father is too simple an arrangement for some people who are more comfortable with the half dozen middlemen Rome has fabricated over the millenia.
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Posted: 7/22/2013 12:41:12 PM EDT
[#10]
<Paulie Walnuts>
2000 years in Purgatory? I can do that standing on my head. </Paulie Walnuts> |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 12:42:18 PM EDT
[#11]
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Because it's too easy to work in an idea called "purgatory" when people don't want to hear the truth of the finality of their actions on earth from the pulpit....because selling sin forgiveness was too profitable a scam to pass up....because having just one middleman to God the Father is too simple an arrangement for some people who are more comfortable with the half dozen middlemen Rome has fabricated over the millenia. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. Because it's too easy to work in an idea called "purgatory" when people don't want to hear the truth of the finality of their actions on earth from the pulpit....because selling sin forgiveness was too profitable a scam to pass up....because having just one middleman to God the Father is too simple an arrangement for some people who are more comfortable with the half dozen middlemen Rome has fabricated over the millenia. lol no That's not at all what purgatory is about. But to know that you'd have to read a bunch of documents and philosophy. Which is harder than staring slack jawed at Pastor Bob's Big House of Jesus (reformed). |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 12:48:58 PM EDT
[#12]
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All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. You do, of course realize, that the protestant denominations sprung from the Catholic Church, not the other way around.. right? What you call "legalism" used to be called "philosophy." Protestants and Catholics alike continue to use it to this day... if your tradition has done away with it, I guess that's your business. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 12:53:15 PM EDT
[#13]
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You do, of course realize, that the protestant denominations sprung from the Catholic Church, not the other way around.. right? What you call "legalism" used to be called "philosophy." Protestants and Catholics alike continue to use it to this day... if your tradition has done away with it, I guess that's your business. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. You do, of course realize, that the protestant denominations sprung from the Catholic Church, not the other way around.. right? What you call "legalism" used to be called "philosophy." Protestants and Catholics alike continue to use it to this day... if your tradition has done away with it, I guess that's your business. A bunch of them don't believe that, actually. They think there were little pockets of their sect hiding in Rome in secret rooms that nobody knows about and isn't documented anywhere. They certainly weren't created on a Tuesday by Pastor Bill in 1830 or whatever, and they're totally different from that other nearly identical church down the street with almost the same name that was created by some guy in 1830 but their pastor had a fight with the other pastor so they made our own church (blackjack and hookers unconfirmed). |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 12:54:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol no That's not at all what purgatory is about. But to know that you'd have to read a bunch of documents and philosophy. Which is harder than staring slack jawed at Pastor Bob's Big House of Jesus (reformed). You catholics sure are uppity about a church with a history of murdering dissidents and selling salvation to the ignorant. The only thing that keeps your church alive is the very thing you accuse me of being.
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Posted: 7/22/2013 12:57:20 PM EDT
[#15]
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You catholics sure are uppity about a church with a history of murdering dissidents and selling salvation to the ignorant. The only thing that keeps your church alive is the very thing you accuse me of being.
Don't knock our pancake breakfasts, they're awesome |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:04:25 PM EDT
[#16]
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You catholics sure are uppity about a church with a history of murdering dissidents and selling salvation to the ignorant. The only thing that keeps your church alive is the very thing you accuse me of being.
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lol no That's not at all what purgatory is about. But to know that you'd have to read a bunch of documents and philosophy. Which is harder than staring slack jawed at Pastor Bob's Big House of Jesus (reformed). You catholics sure are uppity about a church with a history of murdering dissidents and selling salvation to the ignorant. The only thing that keeps your church alive is the very thing you accuse me of being.
Yeah, I mean, no good Prod would ever do that, right? |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:07:08 PM EDT
[#17]
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lol no That's not at all what purgatory is about. But to know that you'd have to read a bunch of documents and philosophy. Which is harder than staring slack jawed at Pastor Bob's Big House of Jesus (reformed). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. Because it's too easy to work in an idea called "purgatory" when people don't want to hear the truth of the finality of their actions on earth from the pulpit....because selling sin forgiveness was too profitable a scam to pass up....because having just one middleman to God the Father is too simple an arrangement for some people who are more comfortable with the half dozen middlemen Rome has fabricated over the millenia. lol no That's not at all what purgatory is about. But to know that you'd have to read a bunch of documents and philosophy. Which is harder than staring slack jawed at Pastor Bob's Big House of Jesus (reformed). lol, so true! |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:07:29 PM EDT
[#18]
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[span style='font-size: 10pt;']Because it's too easy to work in an idea called "purgatory" when people don't want to hear the truth of the finality of their actions on earth from the pulpit.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
[span style='font-size: 10pt;']Because it's too easy to work in an idea called "purgatory" when people don't want to hear the truth of the finality of their actions on earth from the pulpit.... I can see where you'd come to that conclusion absent any study of real Catholic belief. Fair enough. because selling sin forgiveness was too profitable a scam to pass up.... This was definitely true for a certain part of the middle ages. Can't argue with that. because having just one middleman to God the Father is too simple an arrangement for some people who are more comfortable with the half dozen middlemen Rome has fabricated over the millenia. There are no "middlemen" required of Catholics in order to worship and to receive salvation. I know that you refer to the Saints, Mary, and other historical and biblical figures from whom Catholics request prayers, but what makes you think they were "fabricated"? |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:10:29 PM EDT
[#19]
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A bunch of them don't believe that, actually. They think there were little pockets of their sect hiding in Rome in secret rooms that nobody knows about and isn't documented anywhere. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. You do, of course realize, that the protestant denominations sprung from the Catholic Church, not the other way around.. right? What you call "legalism" used to be called "philosophy." Protestants and Catholics alike continue to use it to this day... if your tradition has done away with it, I guess that's your business. A bunch of them don't believe that, actually. They think there were little pockets of their sect hiding in Rome in secret rooms that nobody knows about and isn't documented anywhere. Bzzzzzzz. That is unbiblical. Cannot be true! Lol! They certainly weren't created on a Tuesday by Pastor Bill in 1830 or whatever, and they're totally different from that other nearly identical church down the street with almost the same name that was created by some guy in 1830 but their pastor had a fight with the other pastor so they made our own church (blackjack and hookers unconfirmed). But, but, nobody ever admits about the creation of fundamentalism 1800 years after the resurrection! Its simply not done! |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:16:52 PM EDT
[#20]
Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has any claim to an unbroken history of purity and freedom from sin and shameful actions. I see hypocrisy more clearly in this thread than even ignorance (of which there appears to be a robust amount as well).
We would all do well to remember that before casting judgement and throwing around insults. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:18:54 PM EDT
[#21]
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Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has any claim to an unbroken history of purity and freedom from sin and shameful actions. I see hypocrisy more clearly in this thread than even ignorance (of which there appears to be a robust amount as well). We would all do well to remember that before casting judgement and throwing around insults. I can't remember which side you're on, so, get on the rack heathen. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:20:02 PM EDT
[#22]
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You catholics sure are uppity about a church with a history of murdering dissidents and selling salvation to the ignorant. The only thing that keeps your church alive is the very thing you accuse me of being.
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But to know that you'd have to read a bunch of documents and philosophy. Which is harder than staring slack jawed at Pastor Bob's Big House of Jesus (reformed). You catholics sure are uppity about a church with a history of murdering dissidents and selling salvation to the ignorant. The only thing that keeps your church alive is the very thing you accuse me of being.
Yeah, those darn Catholics. English Martyrs Philadelphia Bible Riots |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:21:30 PM EDT
[#23]
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All what? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. All what? Guess I should've written "all that story tells me." 
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:23:01 PM EDT
[#24]
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You catholics sure are uppity about a church with a history of murdering dissidents and selling salvation to the ignorant. The only thing that keeps your church alive is the very thing you accuse me of being.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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lol no That's not at all what purgatory is about. But to know that you'd have to read a bunch of documents and philosophy. Which is harder than staring slack jawed at Pastor Bob's Big House of Jesus (reformed). You catholics sure are uppity about a church with a history of murdering dissidents and selling salvation to the ignorant. The only thing that keeps your church alive is the very thing you accuse me of being.
LOL, the 'killing dissidents' card. Funny considering that John Calvin and his followers were possibly the most violent of all the competing denominations of that era. But what are historical facts when bigotry needs to be indulged. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:23:08 PM EDT
[#25]
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Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has any claim to an unbroken history of purity and freedom from sin and shameful actions. I see hypocrisy more clearly in this thread than even ignorance (of which there appears to be a robust amount as well). We would all do well to remember that before casting judgement and throwing around insults. Catholicism does not claim such a history. Fairly recent apology |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:24:52 PM EDT
[#26]
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Guess I should've written "all that story tells me." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. All what? Guess I should've written "all that story tells me." Book suggestion, Crossing the Tiber by Steve Ray. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:28:53 PM EDT
[#27]
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Show me a biblical reference defining the Bible. Show me a biblical reference saying that scripture is the only authority for a Christian to follow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Misleading title is misleading. Indulgences do not get you out of Hell. Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences" Yes, the Church stopped selling them. However, you can still obtain indulgences by doing other things, such as reading the Bible or praying the Rosary. Still missing the point......define what an indulgence is. and I want a biblical reference to indulgences and purgatory. Show me a biblical reference defining the Bible. Show me a biblical reference saying that scripture is the only authority for a Christian to follow. Can't help you with the first part, but 2 Timothy 3:16-17 handles the second part quite well: "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (bolded part was my edit) |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:29:03 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences" |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:29:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Martin Luther ain't gonna like that. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:29:50 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Book suggestion, Crossing the Tiber by Steve Ray. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. All what? Guess I should've written "all that story tells me." Book suggestion, Crossing the Tiber by Steve Ray. I promise to take that under consideration. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:30:41 PM EDT
[#31]
Yes, I'm aware of that. I've been a Catholic since my baptism over 40 years ago.
I merely prefer to acknowledge that the Church has its historical problems when pointing out the same of others. Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has any claim to an unbroken history of purity and freedom from sin and shameful actions. I see hypocrisy more clearly in this thread than even ignorance (of which there appears to be a robust amount as well). We would all do well to remember that before casting judgement and throwing around insults. Catholicism does not claim such a history. Fairly recent apology |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:31:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, the 'killing dissidents' card. Funny considering that John Calvin and his followers were possibly the most violent of all the competing denominations of that era. But what are historical facts when bigotry needs to be indulged. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: lol no That's not at all what purgatory is about. But to know that you'd have to read a bunch of documents and philosophy. Which is harder than staring slack jawed at Pastor Bob's Big House of Jesus (reformed). You catholics sure are uppity about a church with a history of murdering dissidents and selling salvation to the ignorant. The only thing that keeps your church alive is the very thing you accuse me of being. LOL, the 'killing dissidents' card. Funny considering that John Calvin and his followers were possibly the most violent of all the competing denominations of that era. But what are historical facts when bigotry needs to be indulged. JC was equally ridiculous, just on the other end of the spectrum - a real reactionary! He was just under a lot of stress not knowing if he was predestined to be one of the elect or not.
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:41:13 PM EDT
[#33]
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Can't help you with the first part, but 2 Timothy 3:16-17 handles the second part quite well: "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (bolded part was my edit) A better translation: [14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. "Scripture" here is ONLY the Old Testament (sacred writings known since childhood). The Gospels weren't even written yet when 2 Timothy was written. Are you saying the entire New Testament is not something that a Christian should follow? |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 1:53:42 PM EDT
[#34]
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A better translation: [14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. "Scripture" here is ONLY the Old Testament (sacred writings known since childhood). The Gospels weren't even written yet when 2 Timothy was written. Are you saying the entire New Testament is not something that a Christian should follow? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Can't help you with the first part, but 2 Timothy 3:16-17 handles the second part quite well: "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (bolded part was my edit) A better translation: [14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. "Scripture" here is ONLY the Old Testament (sacred writings known since childhood). The Gospels weren't even written yet when 2 Timothy was written. Are you saying the entire New Testament is not something that a Christian should follow? The better question to be asked, in light of your statement, is this: "is ONLY Old Testament scripture inspired by God? (IOW, Do no other inspired-by-God scriptures exist outside of the Old Testament?)" This is especially important to ask in light of the Gospels specifically (and generally) being identified as divinely inspired. My answer to your question is "No," and/because the answer to my question is, also, "No." |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 2:07:55 PM EDT
[#35]
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The better question to be asked, in light of your statement, is this: "is ONLY Old Testament scripture inspired by God? (IOW, Do no other inspired-by-God scriptures exist outside of the Old Testament?)" This is especially important to ask in light of the Gospels specifically (and generally) being identified as divinely inspired. My answer to your question is "No," and/because the answer to my question is, also, "No." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Can't help you with the first part, but 2 Timothy 3:16-17 handles the second part quite well: "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (bolded part was my edit) A better translation: [14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. "Scripture" here is ONLY the Old Testament (sacred writings known since childhood). The Gospels weren't even written yet when 2 Timothy was written. Are you saying the entire New Testament is not something that a Christian should follow? The better question to be asked, in light of your statement, is this: "is ONLY Old Testament scripture inspired by God? (IOW, Do no other inspired-by-God scriptures exist outside of the Old Testament?)" This is especially important to ask in light of the Gospels specifically (and generally) being identified as divinely inspired. My answer to your question is "No," and/because the answer to my question is, also, "No." You and I both believe the New Testament is inspired by God. However, 2 Timothy is only referring to the Old Testament (sacred writings known since childhood; the New Testament was not around when Paul was a child, obviously). So I see a contradiction here between your interpretation of 2 Timothy and your belief in the New Testament as inspired by God. You are trying to interpret 2 Timothy as saying that the Holy Bible as we (or at least Protestants) know it is the only authority a Christian must accept. However, as I showed, 2 Timothy can only be referring to the Old Testament. But, you believe that the New Testament is inspired as well, and I assume you think the New Testament is authoritative for Christians. If your interpretation of 2 Timothy is correct, then all a Christian needs is the Old Testament, and not the New Testament. And I don't think any Christian really believes that. My point is, your interpretation of 2 Timothy is incorrect. It is merely stating that Scripture (the Old Testament) is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." It is NOT saying that Scripture contains the totality of the Christian faith. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 2:18:12 PM EDT
[#36]
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You and I both believe the New Testament is inspired by God. However, 2 Timothy is only referring to the Old Testament (sacred writings known since childhood; the New Testament was not around when Paul was a child, obviously). So I see a contradiction here between your interpretation of 2 Timothy and your belief in the New Testament as inspired by God. You are trying to interpret 2 Timothy as saying that the Holy Bible as we (or at least Protestants) know it is the only authority a Christian must accept. However, as I showed, 2 Timothy can only be referring to the Old Testament. But, you believe that the New Testament is inspired as well, and I assume you think the New Testament is authoritative for Christians. If your interpretation of 2 Timothy is correct, then all a Christian needs is the Old Testament, and not the New Testament. And I don't think any Christian really believes that. My point is, your interpretation of 2 Timothy is incorrect. It is merely stating that Scripture (the Old Testament) is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." It is NOT saying that Scripture contains the totality of the Christian faith. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Can't help you with the first part, but 2 Timothy 3:16-17 handles the second part quite well: "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (bolded part was my edit) A better translation: [14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. "Scripture" here is ONLY the Old Testament (sacred writings known since childhood). The Gospels weren't even written yet when 2 Timothy was written. Are you saying the entire New Testament is not something that a Christian should follow? The better question to be asked, in light of your statement, is this: "is ONLY Old Testament scripture inspired by God? (IOW, Do no other inspired-by-God scriptures exist outside of the Old Testament?)" This is especially important to ask in light of the Gospels specifically (and generally) being identified as divinely inspired. My answer to your question is "No," and/because the answer to my question is, also, "No." You and I both believe the New Testament is inspired by God. However, 2 Timothy is only referring to the Old Testament (sacred writings known since childhood; the New Testament was not around when Paul was a child, obviously). So I see a contradiction here between your interpretation of 2 Timothy and your belief in the New Testament as inspired by God. You are trying to interpret 2 Timothy as saying that the Holy Bible as we (or at least Protestants) know it is the only authority a Christian must accept. However, as I showed, 2 Timothy can only be referring to the Old Testament. But, you believe that the New Testament is inspired as well, and I assume you think the New Testament is authoritative for Christians. If your interpretation of 2 Timothy is correct, then all a Christian needs is the Old Testament, and not the New Testament. And I don't think any Christian really believes that. My point is, your interpretation of 2 Timothy is incorrect. It is merely stating that Scripture (the Old Testament) is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." It is NOT saying that Scripture contains the totality of the Christian faith. Hang on a second; you didn't show (ie, prove) that the 2 Timothy verses can "only" be referring to the Old Testament. If you have reasoning beyond just "it was written before the Gospels were," (because that alone does not inherently prove anything), please share it. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 2:24:35 PM EDT
[#37]
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Wanna bet? I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences" You can't buy an indulgence with money. You actually have to do stuff, like do a pilgrimage, or a set of prayers. And they don't get you out of hell. It's a purgatory thing. Wanna bet? I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one. I call bullshit. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 2:25:34 PM EDT
[#38]
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Is this the Christian bashing I keep reading that we are supposed to be stopping? Didn't you hear? Catholics are pagans - not Christians. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 2:25:38 PM EDT
[#39]
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Hang on a second; you didn't show (ie, prove) that the 2 Timothy verses can "only" be referring to the Old Testament. If you have reasoning beyond just "it was written before the Gospels were," (because that alone does not inherently prove anything), please share it. [14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. In context this verse is only referring to sacred writings known since childhood. What scriptures would every Jew have learned from childhood? It certainly does not include the Gospels or letters of St. Paul. And why would the fact that 2 Timothy was written before the Gospels not prove that this verse is only referring to the Old Testament (scriptures already written at the time)? |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 2:30:40 PM EDT
[#40]
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Is this the Christian bashing I keep reading that we are supposed to be stopping? Yep. Only it's not bashing if someone is defending what they believe. Don't cha know? |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 2:32:41 PM EDT
[#41]
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Yep. Only it's not bashing if someone is defending what they believe. Don't cha know? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is this the Christian bashing I keep reading that we are supposed to be stopping? Yep. Only it's not bashing if someone is defending what they believe. Don't cha know? I'm pretty certain the OP is an atheist. He's definitely an anti-Catholic troll. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 2:47:04 PM EDT
[#42]
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I'm pretty certain the OP is an atheist. He's definitely an anti-Catholic troll. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is this the Christian bashing I keep reading that we are supposed to be stopping? Yep. Only it's not bashing if someone is defending what they believe. Don't cha know? I'm pretty certain the OP is an atheist. He's definitely an anti-Catholic troll. I dunno, I'm totally digging this new pope. Atheists can get into heaven, I can ask for forgiveness in 140 characters or less, etc.. he's sounding better and better. #jezus |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 2:57:23 PM EDT
[#43]
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[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. In context this verse is only referring to sacred writings known since childhood. What scriptures would every Jew have learned from childhood? It certainly does not include the Gospels or letters of St. Paul. And why would the fact that 2 Timothy was written before the Gospels not prove that this verse is only referring to the Old Testament (scriptures already written at the time)? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Hang on a second; you didn't show (ie, prove) that the 2 Timothy verses can "only" be referring to the Old Testament. If you have reasoning beyond just "it was written before the Gospels were," (because that alone does not inherently prove anything), please share it. [14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. In context this verse is only referring to sacred writings known since childhood. What scriptures would every Jew have learned from childhood? It certainly does not include the Gospels or letters of St. Paul. And why would the fact that 2 Timothy was written before the Gospels not prove that this verse is only referring to the Old Testament (scriptures already written at the time)? If you assert that 2 Timothy is NOT, itself, divinely-inspired, then yes- what you just said makes sense and I would have to (academically) agree with you. However, I assert that- just like all the minor prophets of the Old Testament- 2 Timothy IS divinely-inspired, and thus the verses in question can reasonably be understood to apply to BOTH Old and New Testament...making it irrelevant that the Gospels did not exist at the time it was written (because God knew about them and would've had the "foresight" to give us advice about their value to us as Christians). |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 3:00:04 PM EDT
[#44]
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Because it's too easy to work in an idea called "purgatory" when people don't want to hear the truth of the finality of their actions on earth from the pulpit....because selling sin forgiveness was too profitable a scam to pass up....because having just one middleman to God the Father is too simple an arrangement for some people who are more comfortable with the half dozen middlemen Rome has fabricated over the millenia. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All this tells me is that the culture of extreme legalism so often promoted in the Catholic church is really just a paper-thin game of little actual substance; so much so that you have to wonder why it was fabricated in the first place. <----------- unashamed Protestant. Because it's too easy to work in an idea called "purgatory" when people don't want to hear the truth of the finality of their actions on earth from the pulpit....because selling sin forgiveness was too profitable a scam to pass up....because having just one middleman to God the Father is too simple an arrangement for some people who are more comfortable with the half dozen middlemen Rome has fabricated over the millenia. Why are you bashing Catholics? That's so offensive and rude. 
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Posted: 7/22/2013 3:02:14 PM EDT
[#45]
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I dunno, I'm totally digging this new pope. Atheists can get into heaven, I can ask for forgiveness in 140 characters or less, etc.. he's sounding better and better. #jezus Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is this the Christian bashing I keep reading that we are supposed to be stopping? Yep. Only it's not bashing if someone is defending what they believe. Don't cha know? I'm pretty certain the OP is an atheist. He's definitely an anti-Catholic troll. I dunno, I'm totally digging this new pope. Atheists can get into heaven, I can ask for forgiveness in 140 characters or less, etc.. he's sounding better and better. #jezus The pope is infallible so it must be true, I guess Jesus just wasn't aware of it. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 3:03:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm pretty certain the OP is an atheist. He's definitely an anti-Catholic troll. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is this the Christian bashing I keep reading that we are supposed to be stopping? Yep. Only it's not bashing if someone is defending what they believe. Don't cha know? I'm pretty certain the OP is an atheist. He's definitely an anti-Catholic troll. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 3:10:03 PM EDT
[#47]
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However, I assert that- just like all the minor prophets of the Old Testament- 2 Timothy IS divinely-inspired, and thus the verses in question can reasonably be understood to apply to BOTH Old and New Testament...making it irrelevant that the Gospels did not exist at the time it was written (because God knew about them and would've had the "foresight" to give us advice about their value to us as Christians). So 2 Timothy applies prospectively to any books that Christians would later decide were inspired? Could a Christian write a book today and claim it to be divinely inspired? Could you then argue that 2 Timothy applies to that book written today? That leaves another problem. How do you decide which books are inspired? 2 Timothy talks about Old Testament scriptures, but how do you decide that 2 Timothy itself is divinely inspired? How do you decide the gospels or any of the other books in the New Testament are divinely inspired? I'll give you the Catholic answer: the gospels and other New Testament books that made it into the Bible are those books that are consistent with a Christian faith that was already in existence and self-sufficient before the books in the Bible were written. Many "holy books" like the gnostic gospels, etc. were discarded by Christians because they did not conform to Christianity. Christianity does not need the Bible. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 3:15:10 PM EDT
[#48]
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The pope is infallible so it must be true, I guess Jesus just wasn't aware of it. You might be right, but since He picked the first one (and in the same breath, gave him the infallibility you speak of) I'll take Him at His word. |
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Posted: 7/22/2013 3:26:53 PM EDT
[#49]
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So 2 Timothy applies prospectively to any books that Christians would later decide were inspired? Could a Christian write a book today and claim it to be divinely inspired? Could you then argue that 2 Timothy applies to that book written today? That leaves another problem. How do you decide which books are inspired? 2 Timothy talks about Old Testament scriptures, but how do you decide that 2 Timothy itself is divinely inspired? How do you decide the gospels or any of the other books in the New Testament are divinely inspired? I'll give you the Catholic answer: the gospels and other New Testament books that made it into the Bible are those books that are consistent with a Christian faith that was already in existence and self-sufficient before the books in the Bible were written. Many "holy books" like the gnostic gospels, etc. were discarded by Christians because they did not conform to Christianity. Christianity does not need the Bible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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However, I assert that- just like all the minor prophets of the Old Testament- 2 Timothy IS divinely-inspired, and thus the verses in question can reasonably be understood to apply to BOTH Old and New Testament...making it irrelevant that the Gospels did not exist at the time it was written (because God knew about them and would've had the "foresight" to give us advice about their value to us as Christians). So 2 Timothy applies prospectively to any books that Christians would later decide were inspired? Could a Christian write a book today and claim it to be divinely inspired? Could you then argue that 2 Timothy applies to that book written today? That leaves another problem. How do you decide which books are inspired? 2 Timothy talks about Old Testament scriptures, but how do you decide that 2 Timothy itself is divinely inspired? How do you decide the gospels or any of the other books in the New Testament are divinely inspired? I'll give you the Catholic answer: the gospels and other New Testament books that made it into the Bible are those books that are consistent with a Christian faith that was already in existence and self-sufficient before the books in the Bible were written. Many "holy books" like the gnostic gospels, etc. were discarded by Christians because they did not conform to Christianity. Christianity does not need the Bible. "Could a Christian write a book today and claim it to be divinely inspired?" Sure, he could claim it (heck many non-Christians already do, and have)- but I doubt such a claim, made today, would prove to be truthful- 2 Timothy used as supporting material, or otherwise. "How do you decide which books are inspired?" I guess I'll just have to "have faith" that the decisions made in the past were valid. I also like to apply "by their fruits you shall know them" to any (new or old) reading materials, their authors, and those who teach by them. 
"Christianity does not need the Bible." I'm not entirely sure what you mean there, but I will say without a doubt that Christians need God, and the Word of God is probably a pretty significant part of that need.
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Posted: 7/22/2013 3:37:30 PM EDT
[#50]
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I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences" Does that include Alter Boys? |
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