Quoted: Mayor Thomas M. Menino said he was considering prohibiting liquor sales and asking bar and restaurant operators to ban live television coverage during games to curb the rowdiness. "Since people won't accept responsibility, I, as mayor, will take it into my own hands," Menino said Thursday. Good Old Massachusetts BIG GOVERMENT.  We need to change our state flag to a hammer and sickle.

I hate to admit this, but the Mayor has a point.  When people behave like animals without self control, expect .gov to get in on the action.

Quoted: All taken out of context from previous threads.

Fixed it for ya.

Quoted: Quoted: Mayor Thomas M. Menino said he was considering prohibiting liquor sales and asking bar and restaurant operators to ban live television coverage during games to curb the rowdiness. "Since people won't accept responsibility, I, as mayor, will take it into my own hands," Menino said Thursday. Good Old Massachusetts BIG GOVERMENT.  We need to change our state flag to a hammer and sickle. I hate to admit this, but the Mayor has a point.  When people behave like animals without self control, expect .gov to get in on the action.

That's the same logic while the libs want to ban guns.  Ya good thinking.  If I owned a bar near Fenway and need the liquor income I would be pretty pissed because .gov can't control the crowd.

Quoted: 1)They shouldn't have been rioting.

Exactly.    

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Mayor Thomas M. Menino said he was considering prohibiting liquor sales and asking bar and restaurant operators to ban live television coverage during games to curb the rowdiness. "Since people won't accept responsibility, I, as mayor, will take it into my own hands," Menino said Thursday. Good Old Massachusetts BIG GOVERMENT.  We need to change our state flag to a hammer and sickle. I hate to admit this, but the Mayor has a point.  When people behave like animals without self control, expect .gov to get in on the action. That's the same logic while the libs want to ban guns.  Ya good thinking.

AFAIK, Menino isn't talking about closing all bars in Boston permanently, or making the trown dry permanently.  He seems to be taking action to limit the potential for violence for a specific period of time AFTER people's behavior has shown the lack of self-control required to celebrate a sports vicotry peacefully.

You're the one who needs to think this through, not me.

Quoted: Grow up.  I girl is dead.... its being discussed.  YOU are the only one being inflammatory with CRAP.  YOU are the one further bringing out the "us and them" crap by continually bringing this type of attitude up. Your "brother" doesnt need your protection.  He will have a big blue wall in Boston to take care of him.

Oh, poor little man did I hurt your feelings? Poor baby.

1) I grew up in W. Bridgewater MA, right near E. Bridgewater.
2) My brother attended UMASS Amherst, and I wne there several times.
3) I've attended Red Sox games.

I probably have more of a personal connection to this than just about anyone that has posted, SO

1) DON'T STAND IN A RIOTING CROWD
2) The pepperball or other systems, have very limited range, saying that people in the crowd nver saw cops is very unlikely.
3) Pepperball, unless using marble which aren't supposed to be used against people, is supposed to be a system that is not likely to cause serious injury or death (SO STFU WITH YOUR DUMBASS LETHAL FORCE QUESTIONS)
4) I think its tragic that the woman died.
5) I think the people on this site that are using this woman's death as a basis to make a bunch of comments about the police response to a riot, are USING her death to further their own little vendettas

That's the same logic while the libs want to ban guns.  Ya good thinking.  If I owned a bar near Fenway and need the liquor income I would be pretty pissed because .gov can't control the crowd.

SWO_Daddy Let me apoligize for my last.  I'm all pissed off about the whole thing.  And if you know the mayor of boston you would understand.  He wouldnt allow tailgating before the Jimmy Buffet concert either.

Quoted: Quoted: All taken out of context from previous threads. Fixed it for ya.

So since when has context mattered?

I'm surprised WACO, Lon, Etc. haven't come up yet.

Quoted: would you prefer spit happens?  I have a bib that says that.....

It's not the words that bother me, it's the attitude. I don't know anyone who would take that attitude with regard to someone they care about - I've never heard a eulogy that went along the lines of "Poor Frank, we'll miss him *shoulder shrug* but shit happens, Amen." I am just expressing my disbelief at the total lack of compassion. Those who feel it is appropriate need not try to convince me otherwise...if you feel good about yourself, then more power to ya.

Riot = Bad

Riot Police = Bad

Riot Police with weapons = Bad

Riot Police with weapons firing = Bad

Hanging out on street during all this = Stupid

Quoted: blah, blah, blah

And my orignal point stands.

If the police had failed to use force to try and stop the riot, and property loss was extensive, or injuries or death occurred the AR15 sheep woould be bleeting that the police "should've done something".

When someone is injured/killed due to police use of force, those same sheep bleet that the police shouldn't have done anything.

So the sheep are bleeting when the wolf attacks, and are bleeting when the sheep dogs hurt the wolf, trying to protect the sheep.

Quoted: Oh, poor little man did I hurt your feelings? Poor baby.

I expect this attitude from you.

1) I grew up in W. Bridgewater MA, right near E. Bridgewater. 2) My brother attended UMASS Amherst, and I wne there several times. 3) I've attended Red Sox games. I probably have more of a personal connection to this than just about anyone that has posted, SO

Big freaking deal.  Nothing above makes any difference at all.  Jeez.

1) DON'T STAND IN A RIOTING CROWD

All we know is that this occurred in the "streets near Fenway Park"  Maybe she was trying to get to her car and get the hell outa there?  DO YOU KNOW OTHERWISE?

2) The pepperball or other systems, have very limited range, saying that people in the crowd nver saw cops is very unlikely. 3) Pepperball, unless using marble which aren't supposed to be used against people, is supposed to be a system that is not likely to cause serious injury or death (SO STFU WITH YOUR DUMBASS LETHAL FORCE QUESTIONS)

Are you saying that they are NOT trained that this type of projectile is potentially lethal, just like a paintball?

As to the "STFU" reference.... I expect that from you... dont like what someone says so 1st amendment is out the window?  How about you ignore me if you dont like it.  You dont have to keep reading this thread.

4) I think its tragic that the woman died.

Thank God.  I do too.

5) I think the people on this site that are using this woman's death as a basis to make a bunch of comments about the police response to a riot, are USING her death to further their own little vendettas

You are probably right.  However, that (while inherently wrong) is not what I am doing and I take issue that you could compare such a thing to the loss of human life.... especially at the hands of the police.  Plus, I could say the same for you.... even though I understand you are trying to balance the cop-haters... and are inherently biased, by profession.

Quoted: If the police had failed to use force to try and stop the riot, and property loss was extensive, or injuries or death occurred the AR15 sheep woould be bleeting that the police "should've done something". When someone is injured/killed due to police use of force, those same sheep bleet that the police shouldn't have done anything. So the sheep are bleeting when the wolf attacks, and are bleeting when the sheep dogs hurt the wolf, trying to protect the sheep.

Good post.

Quoted: Quoted: blah, blah, blah And my orignal point stands. If the police had failed to use force to try and stop the riot, and property loss was extensive, or injuries or death occurred the AR15 sheep woould be bleeting that the police "should've done something". When someone is injured/killed due to police use of force, those same sheep bleet that the police shouldn't have done anything. So the sheep are bleeting when the wolf attacks, and are bleeting when the sheep dogs hurt the wolf, trying to protect the sheep.

Yes, no matter what most times it is a no-win situation.

Quoted: Quoted: If the police had failed to use force to try and stop the riot, and property loss was extensive, or injuries or death occurred the AR15 sheep woould be bleeting that the police "should've done something". When someone is injured/killed due to police use of force, those same sheep bleet that the police shouldn't have done anything. So the sheep are bleeting when the wolf attacks, and are bleeting when the sheep dogs hurt the wolf, trying to protect the sheep. Good post.

Yes, I agree, it's always good to be reminded of how the "sheepdogs" are there to look out for us senseless sheep, I can sleep easier now, baaa

All we know is that this occurred in the "streets near Fenway Park" Maybe she was trying to get to her car and get the hell outa there? DO YOU KNOW OTHERWISE?

+1

from the article:

She was a bystander. She was out of the way, but she still got shot

Quoted: She was a bystander. She was out of the way, but she still got shot

Pepperball guns don't have much range. She couldn't have been very far. If she was so innocent, she wouldn't have been mixed in with the rioters.

Quoted: Quoted: Shit happens Bull.  Fucking. Shit. I'm sure the officer wasn't aiming for her, Then what the hell WAS he aiming at?

A3Kid,  have you ever SEEN a riot up close?  This is not the environment for pinpoint precision and control.  Like HeldHostage,  I understand that the parents are devastated,  and I feel for them.  There are a couple of facts here that you should consider;

1) She was in the middle of a RIOT.  She CHOSE to be there.  She did not leave, she did not walk away as people started throwing garbage cans through signs,  she stayed,  and by staying,  accepted the responsibility for what happened.

2)  Riots are messy, there are a lot of bodies and it's borderline panic,  for both rioters and riot control officers.  Do mistakes happen? Yes.  Was this intentional?  I would bet my life it wasn't.  I would guess that the psychopathic officer who joined a force so he could "legally" kill people and then bidded his time over a period of years till the Sox won the playoffs and he got the chance to kill one of the suckers just doesn't exist.  I'd guess the officer involved is devastated, if they even know who it was.  I suspect if they were firing OC paintpellets that several people were firing them.  I've never shot an OC pellet but normal paint balls plane and don't always follow a straight line.  


It's hard to tell,  I wasn't there, neither were you,   but the fact she was in a riot, and didn't leave,  means she accepts the outcome of what happened.  It's a tragedy,  pure and simple, we agree on that,  but I'm tired of people thinking that just cause someone won a game, or they graduated high school, or they got laid,  that that means they can go out and ruin a bunch of other peoples stuff and raise hell.  

You and I pay for every one of those riots through increased taxes, higher insurance rates and higher prices.   I think police are overly cautious in trying not to hurt rioters.  The next time a city riots cause their team won a playoff the cops should be using rubber bullets and batons like in a prison riot.  It'd only take a few of those before people would get the idea that a team winning the playoffs means high fives all around,  laughing with your friends and buying another round,  not running around lighting shit on fire and destroying stuff.


If you don't want to get killed or maimed in a riot; get the hell home and do something useful.

Quoted: Quoted: the only people that fucked up where the dumb ass'es who decided to be unruley and riot .... Yep, the cop didn't do nothing wrong, did he?  I swear go God I'm gonna have an anurism if y'all keep this shit up.  Does anybody here have kids of their own?

I have a son.  He will be 13 in a few days.  I hope I have taught him enough about life that he will stay out of riots and other SENSELESSLY dangerous situations.  Stupid is as stupid does, and hanging out in a riot is pretty damn stupid.  My sincere condolences go out to the young womans family, but if you don't want to get gored, then don't fuck with the bull.

Quoted: And my orignal point stands. If the police had failed to use force to try and stop the riot, and property loss was extensive, or injuries or death occurred the AR15 sheep woould be bleeting that the police "should've done something". When someone is injured/killed due to police use of force, those same sheep bleet that the police shouldn't have done anything. So the sheep are bleeting when the wolf attacks, and are bleeting when the sheep dogs hurt the wolf, trying to protect the sheep.

Say whatever you want Oly, and I'll do the same.  Something like this ever happens to my daughter, I'm seeking first class retribution against the individual who fucked up.

And don't go mistaking me for a god damned sheep.

Quoted: Quoted: would you prefer spit happens?  I have a bib that says that..... It's not the words that bother me, it's the attitude. I don't know anyone who would take that attitude with regard to someone they care about - I've never heard a eulogy that went along the lines of "Poor Frank, we'll miss him *shoulder shrug* but shit happens, Amen." I am just expressing my disbelief at the total lack of compassion. Those who feel it is appropriate need not try to convince me otherwise...if you feel good about yourself, then more power to ya.

Exactly.  I'm sorry, I don't know this girl, I respect someone cared about her just as I would about my daughter, but if I cried over every senseless death I'd never get anything else done.

Quoted: Quoted: She was a bystander. She was out of the way, but she still got shot Pepperball guns don't have much range. She couldn't have been very far. If she was so innocent, she wouldn't have been mixed in with the rioters.

Nice of you to assign guilt.  

Quoted: Yes, I agree, it's always good to be reminded of how the "sheepdogs" are there to look out for us senseless sheep, I can sleep easier now, baaa

Yeah, using force against a riotous crowd is a decision the police take lightly.

The only are trying to protect the property in the area of the riot. As well as the lives of any innocent victims, and even the members of the rioutous crowd itself. Because riots often lead to trampling, even if accidental, and a free for all attitude in the riotous crowd. That often ends in serious injuries or deaths.

Again in the real world, there is no magic solution, like "crowd sized Jedi mind tricks" [Jedi] you are all sober, and responsible, now being walking to your homes[/Jedi]

Dealing with a riot, means be ready to isolate the rioter from others, identify insitagators, and if neccesary use force to restore order, and effect arrests. That all has risks.

Under reaction, is as bad as over reaction.

Quoted: IF it was the FN system it is advertised (and I am sure marketed) by FN as LESS LETHAL not NON LETHAL.  This distinction will be lost on most.

BINGO!

I cringe anytime I hear the terms non-lethal or less-than-lethal. Just about anything can be lethal. The proper terminology is less lethal.

stay home and dont act like an asshat burning peoles cars and such.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: would you prefer spit happens?  I have a bib that says that..... It's not the words that bother me, it's the attitude. I don't know anyone who would take that attitude with regard to someone they care about - I've never heard a eulogy that went along the lines of "Poor Frank, we'll miss him *shoulder shrug* but shit happens, Amen." I am just expressing my disbelief at the total lack of compassion. Those who feel it is appropriate need not try to convince me otherwise...if you feel good about yourself, then more power to ya. Exactly.  I'm sorry, I don't know this girl, I respect someone cared about her just as I would about my daughter, but if I cried over every senseless death I'd never get anything else done.

Nobody asked you to cry or expected you to do so. I just didn't think that this girl's death is an appropriate occasion to show such disrespect.

For all those posters who have alleged that this girl was hanging out, are you going to be testifying at any hearings? involved in the investigation? why not? This girl couldn't have been walking to her car? This girl couldn't have been an innocent bystander? Hell, maybe she didn't know the area and she was with someone else who was her ride and had little other option. Maybe she threw the bottle, I don't know, do you? I'm shocked that so many are so quick to render a verdict without knowing squat. So who's getting a subpoena since everyone knows so much?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: She was a bystander. She was out of the way, but she still got shot Pepperball guns don't have much range. She couldn't have been very far. If she was so innocent, she wouldn't have been mixed in with the rioters. Nice of you to assign guilt.

TYPE: Semi-automatic

LENGHT:33 inches

WEIGHT:3.5 pounds

VELOCITYFactory setting of 300 to 380 feet per second

TARGET RANGE: 0 to 30 feet

MAXIMUM RANGE: 150 feet for area saturation

FIRING RATE: 6 rounds per second

CAPACITY: 180 rounds

From the Pepperball site.

Quoted: stay home and dont act like an asshat burning peoles cars and such.

Is that what she was doing?  WTF is wrong with you?

I believe the bean bag rounds and the rubber bullets are normally referred to as "less than lethal."  That is a ridiculous term.  Something is either lethal or it's not.  

I've seen the pepper gas rounds fired before and they certainly didn't look like something that could kill a person no matter where they were hit.  It's a damn shame.  

Say what you want, fellas. The damn game lasted three hours and the riot happened well after that. The real tragedy is that she decided not to get the hell out of a riotous area long before bullets of any kind started flying.

Pepperballs have no range to speak of. If she got hit, she was pretty close to the officers. I know one thing, if armed cops are shooting anything    at a crowd of rioting punks who are destroying property, the last thing I'm going to do is stay close to the action.

Shit. I'm the first one around here to bash the "Blue Wall" when I think it's warranted, but I see absolutely nothing wrong here.

She had all night to leave. She didn't, even when cars started burning, windows started getting smashed, and people all around her were getting shot by pepperballs. How stupid is that?

Pepperball projectile info from the Pepperball site

PEPPERBALL PROJECTILE CHARACTERISTICS
Safe at contact range
Allow for accurate suspect targeting at distances up to 30 feet
Allow for area saturation at distances up to 150feet
Kinetic impact less than or equal to standard paintballs
Three-year shelf life
Powder-filled projectiles have an operating temperature range of —30 degrees to +150 degrees
Liquid-filled projectiles will freeze at temperatures of 35 degrees or less

A lot of you here spewing that "tough shit" attitude, were all for chastising the people who wanted to level Fallujah 'cause "not all of them are bad".

But when it comes to cops here in the good ole US of A, it's "Too bad, shouldn't have been there."

Very very nice.

Quoted: PEPPERBALL PROJECTILE CHARACTERISTICS Safe at contact range

Yep - the facts support this, don't they?

Quoted: A lot of you here spewing that "tough shit" attitude, were all for chastising the people who wanted to level Fallujah 'cause "not all of them are bad". But when it comes to cops here in the good ole US of A, it's "Too bad, shouldn't have been there."

Kinda like when that Bradley got hit by an IED and was burning with 100 Iraqis dancing all around it?

Remember what happened to those Iraqis? There may have been innocent people in THAT crowd, too, but it was pretty dumb for them to be there.

Man, there are some not-so-bright folks here.  This girl attended a sporting event.  Afterward, when she left, she happened upon a rowdy crowd.  It turned into a riot.  She was with her friends and probably felt safer with them than walking off, away on her own.

I doubt she was an active participant in the riot.  

Has anyone been in these situations before?  The crowds get so huge and packed, that it's difficult to get away even if you desperately wanted to.

I'm all for supporting the P.D. but this was a negligent homicide and he should have his career ended immediately.

touche' DF.

I'm just pissed, that's all.

Quoted: She had all night to leave.

Until I see what time the game ended, and what time she was killed, I wont make that assumption.

She didn't, even when cars started burning, windows started getting smashed,

We know those happened.  We DONT know that she was in the direct vicinity of any of that.... or if she was hanging out or trying to get out of there.  I will wait for the investigation before I can draw the absolute conclusion.  Anything until then, is speculation, on both sides.

and people all around her were getting shot by pepperballs. How stupid is that?

We dont know that anyone else was shot, fired upon, or that any other pepperbal guns were discharged.  In fact, until the investigation, we dont even know for SURE the exact type of "non-lethal", "less than lethal", or "less lethal" force that was used.  The spokesperson did not decribe it correctly when she called it "non-lethal" so we cant be totally assured the information is accurate that it was a pepperball that ended this girls life.  

Odd, you never hear of this crap happening where citizens have the ability and will to shoot back.  In fact, you usually don't have the riot in the first place.

Quoted: [Nobody asked you to cry or expected you to do so. I just didn't think that this girl's death is an appropriate occasion to show such disrespect. For all those posters who have alleged that this girl was hanging out, are you going to be testifying at any hearings? involved in the investigation? why not? This girl couldn't have been walking to her car? This girl couldn't have been an innocent bystander? Hell, maybe she didn't know the area and she was with someone else who was her ride and had little other option. Maybe she threw the bottle, I don't know, do you? I'm shocked that so many are so quick to render a verdict without knowing squat. So who's getting a subpoena since everyone knows so much?

Not attempting to be disrepectful to her or the family, but shit happens is a general rule of thumb.

Half this post is dedicated to defending the girl, the other half is justifying the officers actions.  There's no clear black and white, there's not one person that was there, including you.  You can't be that upset at them for voicing their opinions and expressing themselves when you are doing the same and you weren't there either.  Most people simply try to rely on common sense as to the chain of events that caused the incident.  Just because someone's opinion or view of the situation differs from yours (as these are all hypothetical and opinions) doesn't give you the right to use excessive profanity at them (A3kid, yes you can tell me to bite you, I really don't care).  And as your nick is legalese, you are hereby assigned the task of drafting the subpeonas.

Quoted: We dont know that anyone else was shot, fired upon, or that any other pepperbal guns were discharged.  In fact, until the investigation, we dont even know for SURE the exact type of "non-lethal", "less than lethal", or "less lethal" force that was used.

There are pics of dozens of people with welts from getting hit by pepperballs, dude. Maybe hundreds of people.

Quoted: Quoted: She had all night to leave. Until I see what time the game ended, and what time she was killed, I wont make that assumption. She didn't, even when cars started burning, windows started getting smashed, We know those happened.  We DONT know that she was in the direct vicinity of any of that.... or if she was hanging out or trying to get out of there.  I will wait for the investigation before I can draw the absolute conclusion.  Anything until then, is speculation, on both sides. and people all around her were getting shot by pepperballs. How stupid is that? We dont know that anyone else was shot, fired upon, or that any other pepperbal guns were discharged.  In fact, until the investigation, we dont even know for SURE the exact type of "non-lethal", "less than lethal", or "less lethal" force that was used.  The spokesperson did not decribe it correctly when she called it "non-lethal" so we cant be totally assured the information is accurate that it was a pepperball that ended this girls life.

Again:

PEPPERBALL PROJECTILE CHARACTERISTICS
Safe at contact range
Allow for accurate suspect targeting at distances up to 30 feet
Allow for area saturation at distances up to 150feet
Kinetic impact less than or equal to standard paintballs
Three-year shelf life
Powder-filled projectiles have an operating temperature range of —30 degrees to +150 degrees
Liquid-filled projectiles will freeze at temperatures of 35 degrees or less

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She was at a maximum 50 yards from the officer who fired the round.

What police spokesperson? Are you refering to the police commisioner?

HeldHostage,
 Sorry.  After going through all the shoot / no shoot scenarios in CCW class, I get pissed when an unarmed person gets "accidentally" whacked by the cops and the reaction is "tough shit".

 I don't know what the answers are, but I know that that just ain't right.

Excuse the profanity, please.

Quoted: Quoted: She was a bystander. She was out of the way, but she still got shot Pepperball guns don't have much range. She couldn't have been very far. If she was so innocent, she wouldn't have been mixed in with the rioters.

I wonder if you have ever been in a group of people when mass hysteria sets in? I don't think that the young woman would have had much success fighting her way through a riot to safety. I am also a bit disappointed in how readily all concerned have decided that the young woman MUST have been a rioter-since she was in the crowd at the time.

Quoted: HeldHostage,  Sorry.  After going through all the shoot / no shoot scenarios in CCW class, I get pissed when an unarmed person gets "accidentally" whacked by the cops and the reaction is "tough shit".  I don't know what the answers are, but I know that that just ain't right. Excuse the profanity, please.

Keep in mind accidental is probably the correct term though hon.  Most officers really do try to avoid taking a life.    No hard feelings.

Quoted: For all those posters who have alleged that this girl was hanging out, are you going to be testifying at any hearings? involved in the investigation? why not? This girl couldn't have been walking to her car? This girl couldn't have been an innocent bystander? Hell, maybe she didn't know the area and she was with someone else who was her ride and had little other option. Maybe she threw the bottle, I don't know, do you? I'm shocked that so many are so quick to render a verdict without knowing squat. So who's getting a subpoena since everyone knows so much?

+1  I don't know squat about it.  For all I know she could've pointed a gun at the cop or, for all I know the cop deliberately tried to kill her.

But, like I said, I don't know squat and I'll just have to wait and find out the facts.

Good point.

I love the reaction "don't call me a sheep," yet the same poster won't accept the role personal responsibility played in her death. If she would have went home instead of standing in the middle of a riot, she would be alive today. She made a choice, and she paid for it with her life. Think about it this way, she would be alive had she been WALKING AWAY.

Sad? You bet. It's sad that her parents didn't raise her right. It's sad that some assholes started a riot. It's sad she chose to be there. It's sad a life had to end after barely reaching 21 years.

However, some people here are acting like the BPD opened up on the crowd with and M-16. This definitely wasn't Kent State Univerisity. The police weren't using deadly force; they were attempting to use techniques lower on the scale than deadly force. In a riot situation the police are outnumbered sometimes hundreds to one. Let me ask you this, if you were outnumbered three to one would you be justified in using deadly force? You bet you would. The BPD was outnumbered by substantially more than that and yet they WERE EMPLOYING LESS LETHAL MEASURES. That's right they were trying to disburse the crowd, thereby protecting and serving not only those property owners but those in the crowd as well, using measures other than deadly force.

Unfortunately, nothing is 100%. And the terminology is "less lethal" rather than "non-lethal" for a reason. You don't think that officer is going to have some serious mental scars from firing a round he believed would cause pain but no permanate harm only to find out it somehow killed a 21 year old woman?

Some people here need think about a situation logically before they get emotional over this "innocent" bystander.

Quoted: I get pissed when an unarmed person gets "accidentally" whacked by the cops and the reaction is "tough shit".

1. We know there was a riot.
2. We know this girl was in the immediate vicinity of that riot.
3. We know the riot police were out in force.
4. We know the range of pepperball guns.

Makes you wonder.

Quoted: Some people here need think about a situation logically before they get emotional over this "innocent" bystander.

Guilty as charged.  See above post to HH.

so you would be seeking yourself for being a bad parent.
you should teach your kids not to be involved in stupid shit like this or they may get hurt.

Quoted: Quoted: And my orignal point stands. Say whatever you want Oly, and I'll do the same.  Something like this ever happens to my daughter, I'm seeking first class retribution against the individual who fucked up. And don't go mistaking me for a god damned sheep.