Quoted: Quoted: I believe Timothy Mossbrucker was taken out with an SKS BEFORE Albert Petrosky fired his .50 BMG. CRC That is very likely, and the news reports did not elaborate which weapon downed the deputy. I was indicating that the 50 was used during the commission of a crime (multiple murder 1 in this case) and was fired at the squad at some point. Nevertheless, NO firearm should be banned / regulated because of the actions of a few POS perps.

I agree.

CRC

Quoted: Quoted: OK, OK, we're wrong. In twenty-five years, there's been ONE crime committed by someone using a fifty. It appears there are at least two. In June of 2004, Marvin Heemeyer of Granby, Colorado, plowed a makeshift armored bulldozer into several buildings in response to a zoning dispute and fines for city code violations. Heemeyer armored his 60-ton bulldozer with two sheets of half-inch steel with a layer of concrete between them. He methodically drove the bulldozer through the town of Granby, damaging or leveling 13 buildings before taking his own life. Heemeyer mounted three rifles on the bulldozer, including a Barrett 82A1 50 caliber sniper rifle. ("Man who plowed armored bulldozer into seven buildings in Colorado is dead, authorities say," Associated Press, June 5, 2004; "Armored Dozer Was Bad to Go," Denver Rocky Mountain News, June 25, 2004)

No proof and it still last i saw in question as to if it was even there.(the barrett i mean.)

So he mounted a Barret on  a bulldozer?

Never said he USED it.

Funny.....you start asking for proof that the police said something.....






And you get <crickets> in return.

I believe AR15fan is playing devil's advocate.

This is pretty pathetic that for 3 pages none of us has been able to throughly and easily debunk the "myths" or back up his contention.

Maybe my recollection is off, but the first guy at the grocery never fired the .50....he only had it with him.  It seems someone posted the police findings, NOT a news story or NRA link or VPC link.

Anybody got anything concrete???  Either way?

Who gives a shit? How many people have been killed with baseball bats, kitchen knives, cars, pillows, bathtubs, coke bottles, chainsaws, scissors, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Even if 20 people were killed with a .50 in the last 20 years it would not add up to the # of folk killed with normal every day things lying around the house. This thread is dumb.

It happened that each of Petrosky's victims were killed by other weapons in his arsenal.r However, most people would agree that this incident qualifies as "criminal use" of a 50 caliber sniper rifle.

Which makes for a whopping total of, what, 2 uses since the 50BMG cartridge was invented? Sometime in the early 1900s IIRC, so that'd be 100 years.

"The principle uses of the .50 AE are metallic silhouette shooting and hunting. The .50 AE has developed a reputation for superb accuracy, no doubt due to the high-quality, expensive firearms that have chambered it. The cartridge is too powerful, the bullets too heavily constructed and the guns too large to be considered practical for defensive or tactical type weapons. Other Firearms chambered in the .50 AE include the AMT Automag V, LAR Grizzly, Freedom Arms model 555, Magnum Research BFR and some other, lesser known handguns. Upper recievers for AR-15 rifles have also been chambered in this round. Wilderness makes a bolt-action rifle in this chambering."

Single shot
Breach loading, bolt action bull pup
All steel construction
30.4 pounds
45.5 inch LOA
Thumb safety and bolt stop safety
Very low recoil, similar to a 12 gauge shotgun
Model MG Match grade chamber (requires match grade ammunition)
Model FG Field grade chamber (commercial and match ammunition)
36 inch 1:15 twist heavy barrel with compensator
4340 alloy steel bolt (Mil Spec 5000), heat treated to 46 R/C
4140 alloy steel receiver, heat treated to 42 R/C
Includes hard case.
Scope and rings sold separately

Seems that there is both a single shot .50BMG rifle called the "L.A.R. Grizzly" and a 1911 based handgun with the same name that takes the .50 Action Express round. Take your pick but if I were going up against John Law I'd want more then a single shot even if it was a .50BMG.

Yes we have to be truthful and admit that criminals misuse guns, including these. But even granting all of this, the .50 BMG rifle is no more a threat to public safety than a can of gasoline.

And remember hunters: once they ban .50 BMG they will come for other long range, flat-shooting cartridges. "Military style sniper rifle" is a term that can apply to any number of decent hunting rifles.

Okay, unless I've missed something, so far we have a VPC reference to a newspaper article, but not a hotlink to the article itself, and a claim that "the police said" something about a .50 but not a reference to the police or court report.

Ummm, thats not exactly proof.

Quoted: Us gunowners should try to be more truethful than the antis. we are better than them. On April 28, 1995, Albert Petrosky walked into an Albertson's grocery store in suburban Denver, Colorado, and gunned down his estranged wife and the store manager. Armed with an L.A.R. Grizzly 50 caliber sniper rifle, an SKS Chinese semiautomatic assault rifle, a .32 revolver, and a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, Petrosky then walked out into the shopping center parking lot, where he exchanged fire with a federal IRS agent and killed Sgt. Timothy Mossbrucker of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department. Petrosky, who was known to his friends as "50-cal Al," fired all four weapons, including the 50 caliber rifle, during his murderous rampage. ("Authorities Investigate Gun Sale: Rifle Used in Albertson's Slayings Wasn't Illegal," Rocky Mountain News, May 1, 1995)

No one in the United States has ever been murdered with a .50 BMG.

Until I am convinced otherwise, I will stick to that statement.

Notice the operative words here. Despite this obviously attempting to be an anti-.50 article, they do not specifically state that he shot/hit, much less killed, anyone with the .50.

I went to VPC’s anti-.50 section a while back and, while they said plenty of stuff about how people owned, carried, or fired their .50’s, NOT ONE mentioned someone actually being murdered by one. I’m pretty sure the VPC would point that out if it was the case. This is just like Michael Moore’s movies; he rarely lies outright, but strongly implies things that are false.

Quoted: Quoted: I don't believe he fired the .50 at Albertsons. The police claim he did.

And the Feds claimed that Koresh &Friends shot at them with a .50 machine gun (which curiously wasn't among the weapons recovered after the seige).

The claim that the .50 was used in both alleged crimes is total bullshit.
I live in the state both situations happened.In neither case was the .50 actually fired.
In the bulldozer,it was mounted and was never fired.
In the albertsons incedent,the .50 was in the mans vehicle,and was never used against any person.
The SKS was used to shoot the cop.
Get your fucking story straight before you spout that DU shit.

Quoted: Us gunowners should try to be more truethful than the antis. we are better than them. On April 28, 1995, Albert Petrosky walked into an Albertson's grocery store in suburban Denver, Colorado, and gunned down his estranged wife and the store manager. Armed with an L.A.R. Grizzly 50 caliber sniper rifle, an SKS Chinese semiautomatic assault rifle, a .32 revolver, and a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, Petrosky then walked out into the shopping center parking lot, where he exchanged fire with a federal IRS agent and killed Sgt. Timothy Mossbrucker of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department. Petrosky, who was known to his friends as "50-cal Al," fired all four weapons, including the 50 caliber rifle, during his murderous rampage. ("Authorities Investigate Gun Sale: Rifle Used in Albertson's Slayings Wasn't Illegal," Rocky Mountain News, May 1, 1995)

I want to know how he could have fired a .50 cal bolt action rifle while also carrying--and firing--an SKS and two handguns.

Quoted: I want to know how he could have fired a .50 cal bolt action rifle while also carrying--and firing--an SKS and two handguns.

Slings, and holsters?

Did you guys read my posts?

Petrosky DID FIRE his .50 BMG but after killing the cop with his SKS.

CRC [eyes]

Who the hell cares?  So what if a criminal uses whatever to commit a crime, that does not mean I should not have one.


That woman in Texas drowned her kids in a bathtub.  Should we all not be allowed to own bathtubs because someone might use it to drown kids?

I simply don't care, a criminal is a criminal.  My rights are not to be predicated on what a criminal has done or might do.

Quoted: Quoted: I remember the Colorado case vividly. The perp DID fire his 50 outside the store. The casings on the ground in the news video were definately .50s (guys foot next to one for scale). The few witnesses they interviewed said they saw him shoot the 50. They also showed the SD squad and it was pretty tore up with LARGE entrance holes in the hood and windshield. IIRC the Deputy didn't even have time to get out of the car. Nevertheless, the local news did not make the reporting out to be the usual "gun with a perp" story, and merely commented that the weapon was "big" and made "big booms". The story actually focused upon what a POS the perp was. Then again, this all happened before Colorado was infected with libs from Kali, so who knows what the media take would be if it happened today. If the anti-gun types interpreted the 2 A the same way they interpret the 1 A, they would be arguing that firearms ownership is mandatory. RIP Deputy Mossbrucker www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_salute.gif I believe Timothy Mossbrucker was taken out with an SKS BEFORE Albert Petrosky fired his .50 BMG. CRC

So now we are going from no 50BMG has ever been used in any crime, to argueing about at what point during the commision of a murder it was fired?

I guarentee by next week someone on AR15.com will again claim no 50BMG has ever been used in a crime. Gun owners, being to good guys, have an obligation to the truth.

Quoted: Gun owners, being to good guys, have an obligation to the truth.

Then let's get to it, not through news stories quotes or "I think I read"'s....

Quoted: The claim that the .50 was used in both alleged crimes is total bullshit. I live in the state both situations happened.In neither case was the .50 actually fired. In the bulldozer,it was mounted and was never fired.

Locals have posted here that it was fired at propane storge tanks. Are they mistaken?  Attaching a 50BMG to your armored bulldozer but then being killed by the police before having a chance to fire your 50Cal main gun doesnt count as criminal use?

Quoted: Who the hell cares?  So what if a criminal uses whatever to commit a crime, that does not mean I should not have one. .

Did you read the subject line of this thread?  It's about us being better than the antis, by actually telling the truth rather than just claiming whatever sounds best in a sound bite.  Lots of pro gun folks are claiming a 50BMG has NEVER been used in any crime.  That's false. Either they are ignorant, or liars.

FWIW, common belief around CO is that he did fire the 50 in the Albertson's case.

SRM

...

I have been unable to confirm or followup on this murder, but several months ago, across my desk came a BOLO(Be On Look Out) in reference to a murder in the Long Beach, CA area. Somewhere near a waterfront. It appeared the man he been shot twice through the front of his car by what crime scene detectives believed was a fifty cal. If I remember correctly, there was the idea of body mutilation somehow being involved due to the extent of the injuries fromt he two rounds, and this theory was later put to rest. No further information was to be had, and I have not seen any updates, but this could very well be THE one incident needed to lay this to rest, so to speak.

I have been waiting quite patiently but I still don't see any verifiable sources to back these allegations. This does not bode well for the ".50's have been used in a crime" sect. They might well be correct, but anyone with .3 brains can recognize a distinct lack of non-anecdotal information.

Everyone please stop saying stuff like "locals posted", "an article I read said", etc. Please post only original and verifiable sources which back these claims. If you don't, we may begin to suspect DuH drivel...

Quoted: I have been waiting quite patiently but I still don't see any verifiable sources to back these allegations. This does not bode well for the ".50's have been used in a crime" sect. They might well be correct, but anyone with .3 brains can recognize a distinct lack of non-anecdotal information. Everyone please stop saying stuff like "locals posted", "an article I read said", etc. Please post only original and verifiable sources which back these claims. If you don't, we may begin to suspect DuH drivel...

Go get a lawn chair, because its gonna be a LONG wait…

Why, because they are full of shit. The CANNOT show, at least to my knowledge, 1 single confirmed death from a .50 cal wound, that was incurred while in the progress of a crime.

The only place this article exists, is on the VPC web site.

Quoted: The only place this article exists, is on the VPC web site.

That says VOLUMES.

Quoted: Quoted: The only place this article exists, is on the VPC web site. That says VOLUMES.

Yes, it does indeed.

Quoted: Very low recoil, similar to a 12 gauge shotgun

Was anybody else confused by this? 12ga. shitguns hit me like a good, old fashioned Italian baseball bat-beating.

Even if he did have it mounted, it is not a criminal use. That is guilt by association. Just because it was there doesnt mean it was there criminally. Until fired, it is just a gun he owns as good as in his house, save brandishing a firearm in public if having it in your vehicle counts as brandishing with a rifle. The Branch Davidians had a .50 disassembled in a case, inoperable at the time.  Sure they owned it, but it wasnt used criminally.

No, I dont have link sources. It is common sense and what I learned from the history channel on Waco. I never needed to have documentation of it until now.

Quoted: I have been unable to confirm or followup on this murder, but several months ago, across my desk came a BOLO(Be On Look Out) in reference to a murder in the Long Beach, CA area. Somewhere near a waterfront. It appeared the man he been shot twice through the front of his car by what crime scene detectives believed was a fifty cal. If I remember correctly, there was the idea of body mutilation somehow being involved due to the extent of the injuries fromt he two rounds, and this theory was later put to rest. No further information was to be had, and I have not seen any updates, but this could very well be THE one incident needed to lay this to rest, so to speak.

I saw a simular BOLO that reference to one being fired in a gang shooting in Long Beach, but no one was killed in that shooting.

Quoted: I have been waiting quite patiently but I still don't see any verifiable sources to back these allegations.

If the news media is not a verifiable source then i have seen no verifiable info that GWB is president or there is a war in Iraq.

You are really reaching if you wont belive a 50BMG has ever been used in a single crime, unless you yourself were the victim.

Quoted: The CANNOT show, at least to my knowledge, 1 single confirmed death from a .50 cal wound, that was incurred while in the progress of a crime.

Go back and read the tilte of the thread.  Nobody mentioned deaths.  People are spouting off that no 50BMG has ever been used in a crime.  It's an asinine claim.  

Branch Davidians I dont recall seeing in the list of guns they seized as being a barrett. also keep in mind the davidians were found NOT guilty. The ruling was overturned because of something technical bullshit. In all intents and purposes they did nothing wrong. I wish people would quit demonizing them. I have yet to see any crime committed by then or Vernon Howell(David Koresh). ATF says they have affidavits stating he molested people etc etc etc, ok when were these affidavits written? before or after? not to mention keep in mind they were written by the very people who murdered the davidians. YES murdered! For all you ATF defenders, keep in mind there is plenty of evidence pointing that a massive coverup was done and plenty of lies were spread by the gov including but not limited to drug accusations, illegal firearms conversions. if memory serves me correctly, I believe david koresh actually had an FFL.


Grocery store robbery: all I can say is a court transcript is the only thing that will prove this beyond any doubt. Both the davidians and grocery store thing sound like a bunch of smoke and mirrors to me. I make a rule NEVER to believe anything the media says. I don't care what network or whatever...... I NEVER believe it. I take it with an enormous grain of salt. I want to see court transcripts and such and they better be from someone OTHER than the atf and FBI. right now the atf and fbi are at the top of my shitlist. US marshals I might take seriously as well as secret service. those two tend to have good disciplinary records. while the atf and fbi tend to look like shit.


Conclusion: this is all a bunch of smoke and mirrors with out trustworthy transcripts and testimony, which sadly enough, we don't have. so unless you were there, which i doubt, you just don't know. and no I'm not saying this to cover up crime, I'm saying this because you REALLY don't know. too many people rely on media and what someone else tells you. It's like a fish story. You catch a 12 inch trout and by the time you get home you're holding your hands out 2 feet wide and claming the fish was that big. Too much exaggeration. If I recall the list of firearms at the davidian house, were a bunch of HKs, ar-15s and aks. again this is only SUPPOSIDLY. remember the atf and fbi took a LONG time to release this info and on a personal note I think they're full of shit.

Quoted: Quoted: I have been waiting quite patiently but I still don't see any verifiable sources to back these allegations. If the news media is not a verifiable source then i have seen no verifiable info that GWB is president or there is a war in Iraq. You are really reaching if you wont belive a 50BMG has ever been used in a single crime, unless you yourself were the victim.

If you want to believe just ONE source thats fine, All he's asking for is verifiable sources. When you have live coverage and multiple media agencies covering the same thing then you ususlly can assume its reliable (GW as Pres and the WiI). Now on the other hand if you have one agency reporting some BS for their own reasons (ie CBS and the GW NG thing) with nobody else touching it with a pole, you can usually assume its B-shit. Youve got one source. Get me some other sources and I might believe you.

I agree with the original post.  When ever we catch a lie or mistake made by one of our side, we need to correct it as soon as possible.  It hurts or credibility when we overlook items like this.

I guarantee that if we fail to find these errors, the other side won't, and they will use them against us.

well if we are gonna ban things on the basis that they are "deadly" and have been used in crimes get ready for some serious changes!  Like walking, cars are dangerous and have been used in numerous deadly crimes, AND FRYING PANS a man killed his mother with a deadly unregistered frying pan that might have been purchased at a black market garage sale!  AND 5-GALLON BUCKETS ban them for the children, kids drown in them, AND BASEBALL BATS I'm sure there is a case or two where someone was beat to death with one................................................................................you could go on for days with stuff like this, we wouldn't be left with much if everyone was liberal enough to go ban crazy!  But we must fight for every right because it will not happen overnight!  It is like eating an elephant, you do it one bite at a time, just like the LEFT is trying to do right now!  I know I'm sort of preaching to the choir but it is always good to be reminded
I'll get off my soap box now

Polytech

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't believe he fired the .50 at Albertsons. The police claim he did. Got another link for a case report? Something other than your VPC press release? A court transcript would be perfect... They cite the news articles.  Show me ANY evidence that the news articles are wrong.

They have this same shit going on over at biggerhammer Heres a list of what the FBI recovered. No .50 Cal- All heresay- there ya go
List

Quoted: Quoted: I have been waiting quite patiently but I still don't see any verifiable sources to back these allegations. If the news media is not a verifiable source then i have seen no verifiable info that GWB is president or there is a war in Iraq. You are really reaching if you wont belive a 50BMG has ever been used in a single crime, unless you yourself were the victim.

The VPC is not a news source.

Quoted: well if we are gonna ban things on the basis that they are "deadly" and have been used in crimes get ready for some serious changes!  Like walking, cars are dangerous and have been used in numerous deadly crimes, AND FRYING PANS a man killed his mother with a deadly unregistered frying pan that might have been purchased at a black market garage sale!  AND 5-GALLON BUCKETS ban them for the children, kids drown in them, AND BASEBALL BATS I'm sure there is a case or two where someone was beat to death with one................................................................................you could go on for days with stuff like this, we wouldn't be left with much if everyone was liberal enough to go ban crazy!  But we must fight for every right because it will not happen overnight!  It is like eating an elephant, you do it one bite at a time, just like the LEFT is trying to do right now!  I know I'm sort of preaching to the choir but it is always good to be reminded I'll get off my soap box now Polytech

And like many people have completely missed the point of this thread.



How many times do we jump on the media or someone when they call a gun an AK-47 when it was really an SKS.

If we are going to hold people to the facts, then we should hold ourselves to the same standard.

Quoted: Us gunowners should try to be more truethful than the antis. we are better than them. On April 28, 1995, Albert Petrosky walked into an Albertson's grocery store in suburban Denver, Colorado, and gunned down his estranged wife and the store manager. Armed with an L.A.R. Grizzly 50 caliber sniper rifle, an SKS Chinese semiautomatic assault rifle, a .32 revolver, and a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, Petrosky then walked out into the shopping center parking lot, where he exchanged fire with a federal IRS agent and killed Sgt. Timothy Mossbrucker of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department. Petrosky, who was known to his friends as "50-cal Al," fired all four weapons, including the 50 caliber rifle, during his murderous rampage. ("Authorities Investigate Gun Sale: Rifle Used in Albertson's Slayings Wasn't Illegal," Rocky Mountain News, May 1, 1995)

Okay, it has been used once.  

Of course, I will accept the accuracy of any dipshit reporter who uses "semiautomatic" and "assault rifle" in the same phrase, especially when said dipshit applies it to an SKS.

Quoted: Quoted: Who cares!   I care that the NRA and gunowners look lke idiots when then keep hitting a talking point that is a lie.

Gee, so gunowners have been wrong on ONE talking point.  The antis have yet to be right on any of their talking points.

Quoted: Quoted: I don't believe he fired the .50 at Albertsons. The police claim he did.

Oh, and they would never lie to sensationalize an event, would they.

Quoted: See also Suspect Organizations and Individuals Possessing Long-Range Fifty Caliber Sniper Weapons, Minority Staff Report, Committee on Government Reform, U.S. House of Representatives (1999).

Sheesh, have you read that?  It is just another propoganda hatchet job by Waxman and company.

It starts off saying that the "Long-range fifty caliber rifles are powerful and dangerous weapons".

In this report, they include a report on an assisination plot against Castro and use that as an example of a "crime" committed with a fifty.  First, it wasn't a crime and they should have succeeded.  Second, it wasn't in this country.

In the report, they mention "two semi-automatic fifty caliber assault rifles".  As mentioned, "semiautomatic" and "assault rifle" do not go together.  Also, the caliber alone rules it out as an assault rifle.

I can't believe you linked to this bullshit.

Quoted: Three -- the IRA used a smuggled 82A1 to kill a British soldier named Stephen Restorick in 1997 in in south Armagh, Northern Ireland. www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~hynes/309K/student_websites/dhr_web/restorick%20cover.jpeg

Not in this country.

Quoted: So he mounted a Barret on  a bulldozer? Never said he USED it.

Isn't possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony a crime ? Doesn't matter if he used it or not, just HAVING it was a crime.

All you need is "cop killers" to fire through a bulldozer.  Just ask Riggs and Murtaugh!