Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This discussion always goes to hell around here(Pun intended)  As the Dead Sea Scrolls are deciphered it has been proven Mary was not a virgin.  The text was misread.  Mary was a young girl, not a virgin.  The same applies to the Devil himself.  Satan was mistranslated from ha-satan which is Hebrew from adversary.  I believe in God, but Mel Gibsons movie is very innacurate and should be judged as such.  He glorifies violence for a profit.  Not to mention Mel is a your all going to hell if you don't believe exactly as I do kind of personality. The parts of the movie I saw were not historically accurate to the degree that we know what happened so long ago.  The gratuitous use of violence was not tasteful.  Many her attack that notion due to the subject matter.  Violence is violence.  If it's the alledged son of God or not. now like the 1st sentance said, this will spriral out of control into a pissing match shortly so let me reiterate.  I believe in God.  I do not believe in the mis translated text of the bible.

The Hebrew word for virgin and young maiden is interchangable.

In the Jewish mind and culture, a young maiden was equal to a virgin since when she got married, she was no longer considered a young maiden or girl.

This is called knowing the culture of the day and a little experience with Biblical language.

Patsue

Quoted: This discussion always goes to hell around here(Pun intended)  As the Dead Sea Scrolls are deciphered it has been proven Mary was not a virgin.  The text was misread.  Mary was a young girl, not a virgin.  The same applies to the Devil himself.  Satan was mistranslated from ha-satan which is Hebrew from adversary.  I believe in God, but Mel Gibsons movie is very innacurate and should be judged as such.  He glorifies violence for a profit.  Not to mention Mel is a your all going to hell if you don't believe exactly as I do kind of personality. The parts of the movie I saw were not historically accurate to the degree that we know what happened so long ago.  The gratuitous use of violence was not tasteful.  Many her attack that notion due to the subject matter.  Violence is violence.  If it's the alledged son of God or not. now like the 1st sentance said, this will spriral out of control into a pissing match shortly so let me reiterate.  I believe in God.  I do not believe in the mis translated text of the bible.

K.

Whatever helps you sleep at night....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This discussion always goes to hell around here(Pun intended)  As the Dead Sea Scrolls are deciphered it has been proven Mary was not a virgin.  The text was misread.  Mary was a young girl, not a virgin.  The same applies to the Devil himself.  Satan was mistranslated from ha-satan which is Hebrew from adversary.  I believe in God, but Mel Gibsons movie is very innacurate and should be judged as such.  He glorifies violence for a profit.  Not to mention Mel is a your all going to hell if you don't believe exactly as I do kind of personality. The parts of the movie I saw were not historically accurate to the degree that we know what happened so long ago.  The gratuitous use of violence was not tasteful.  Many her attack that notion due to the subject matter.  Violence is violence.  If it's the alledged son of God or not. now like the 1st sentance said, this will spriral out of control into a pissing match shortly so let me reiterate.  I believe in God.  I do not believe in the mis translated text of the bible. The Dead Sea Scrolls were written by a group of Jews who did not believe Jesus to be the Son of God.  They do not contain any useful insight into Christianity. I like your posts and don't want to get in a pissing match with you.  What you miss is that the Dead Sea Scrolls allowed better translation of anciant Bible texts that now prove Mary was a young woman and SATAN is simply a political/military adversary.  Things were simply not as divine as many people believe.  however the believer say this is just part of the challenge to believe.  When it comes to the entire areana of Christian based religion to each his own for sure, for it is a complex grouping of beliefs.  All believers in the Christian God should not be fighting amongst themselves.  As we have been seeing in recent years, we have a common enemy that is out to spread it's beliefs worldwide.   NOTE Mods:  This is not a condemnation of any particular race, creed or color.  This is not a kill em all reply.  This is not  advocating the destruction of any other race.  Please do not misinterpret above statements to the contrary.  Our enemy is not an entire race or religous group.

I will say again, The Jews who wrote the dead sea scrolls, were not involved in the early Church.  They really don't have any insite into who Mary was, or even who Jesus was.  What the Dead Sea Scrolls do provide though is an interesting look into how this group of Jews lived at that time.

Quoted: K. Whatever helps you sleep at night....

It has no bearing on my sleeping habits.  In the end we all stand in judgment for our beliefs.  Usually by the time I get to bed, I need no help.  I am crashed out.

I don't believe the Bible is 100% accurate, but the message is.


SGatr15

"Behold. I make all things new again!"

He gets up. The music blares. The heart bleeds. The soul rejoices.

That moment right there was worth TWICE the admission!

Quoted: I will say again, The Jews who wrote the dead sea scrolls, were not involved in the early Church.  They really don't have any insite into who Mary was, or even who Jesus was.  What the Dead Sea Scrolls do provide though is an interesting look into how this group of Jews lived at that time.

Wow I knind of surprised we are having a parralel conversation.  OK let me try again.  it's has little to nothing to do with the contents of the scrolls.  It is the fact you have so much ancient text to translate OTHER texts.  Some believe that young woman and virgin are interchangable.  Close, but not exactly correct.  And as I said, people are very defensive of their interpreation of Christianity as they should be.
If you beleive in the immacualte conception thing, that is great.  And I don't mean that in a sarcastic way by any means.  Faith is a great thing for those who use it correctly.

Quoted: I will say again, The Jews who wrote the dead sea scrolls, were not involved in the early Church.  They really don't have any insite into who Mary was, or even who Jesus was.  What the Dead Sea Scrolls do provide though is an interesting look into how this group of Jews lived at that time.

From the very earliest days of Christianity, there were people who wrote to deny and pollute the truth. These efforts are viewable in the mentions of them by Paul, Peter, Jude, and Jesus Himself in the gospels.

Just like the media of today, there were many people who stood to gain by denying the truth of Christ. The existence of their writings proves NOTHING but that they were unbelievers who sought any and every opportunity to try and discredit Christ.

The Apostles received no riches, no glory, no earthly honor for preaching the truth of Christ. They all were executed (or in the case of John, exiled) for preaching about Christ. The early Christian faced lions, crucifixion and worse for holding to Christ. One account was given of a man who was to be beheaded for his stand for Christ, and his witness was so powerful that one of the Roman soldiers on scene instantly converted and was executed along with him.

This is not the made up fairy tales of men who sought power. It is the true witness of servants of the Most High God who loved not their lives unto the death. Their testimony was only made possible by God Himself, and is thus reliant upon the Charachter of The Almighty. The Word is sure.

Quoted: Quoted: K. Whatever helps you sleep at night.... It has no bearing on my sleeping habits.  In the end we all stand in judgment for our beliefs.  Usually by the time I get to bed, I need no help.  I am crashed out.

We will stand in judgment for our position as sinners before a Holy and Just God.  The good news is that Jesus took my place and recieved God's wrath intended for me.  

patsue

Quoted: The Hebrew word for virgin and young maiden is interchangable. In the Jewish mind and culture, a young maiden was equal to a virgin since when she got married, she was no longer considered a young maiden or girl. This is called knowing the culture of the day and a little experience with Biblical language. Patsue

damsel - na`arah, nah-ar-aw', Hebrew 5291; feminine of Hebrew 5288 (na`ar); a girl (from infancy to adolescence) :- damsel, maid (-en), young (woman).

Bethuwlah, beth-oo-law', Hebrew 1330; feminine passive participle of an unused root meaning to separate; a virgin

here somes the flame war.  I can smell it a mile away...

Quoted: Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews Chapter 3 verse 3 "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of  such men as recieve the truth with pleasure.  he drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles.  He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had fortold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the trib of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day" Josephus was born in 37 AD and died sometime after 100 AD patsue

According to many scholars, the authenticity of that passage is questionable...just so ya know...but that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't exist...just that I find the whole supernatural part of the story kinda hard to swallow...

Quoted: Quoted: I will say again, The Jews who wrote the dead sea scrolls, were not involved in the early Church.  They really don't have any insite into who Mary was, or even who Jesus was.  What the Dead Sea Scrolls do provide though is an interesting look into how this group of Jews lived at that time. Wow I knind of surprised we are having a parralel conversation.  OK let me try again.  it's has little to nothing to do with the contents of the scrolls.  It is the fact you have so much ancient text to translate OTHER texts.  Some believe that young woman and virgin are interchangable.  Close, but not exactly correct.  And as I said, people are very defensive of their interpreation of Christianity as they should be. If you beleive in the immacualte conception thing, that is great.  And I don't mean that in a sarcastic way by any means.  Faith is a great thing for those who use it correctly.

עַלְמָה (almâ) young woman.  Isaiah 7:14

Virgin- Young Woman- ALMA They are the same thing in the Hebrew.  An entire scroll of Isaiah was included in the dead sea scrolls.  

patsue

Quoted: Quoted: Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews Chapter 3 verse 3 "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of  such men as recieve the truth with pleasure.  he drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles.  He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had fortold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the trib of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day" Josephus was born in 37 AD and died sometime after 100 AD patsue According to many scholars, the authenticity of that passage is questionable...just so ya know...but that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't exist...just that I find the whole supernatural part of the story kinda hard to swallow...

Sure, and according to many scholars, that passage is exactly what Josephus wrote.  

patsue

Quoted: עַלְמָה (almâ) young woman.  Isaiah 7:14 Virgin- Young Woman- ALMA They are the same thing in the Hebrew.  An entire scroll of Isaiah was included in the dead sea scrolls.   patsue

OK to each his own.  There is now way to hash it out here.  After all it's been a conflict for thousands of years.  Your beliefs and interpreations are exactly that...yous.  Mine are mine.  When we die, I guess we find out who's right.  How utterly poetic.

Quoted: "Behold. I make all things new again!" He gets up. The music blares. The heart bleeds. The soul rejoices. That moment right there was worth TWICE the admission!

My thoughts exactly Zaphod!

Quoted: Quoted: I will say again, The Jews who wrote the dead sea scrolls, were not involved in the early Church.  They really don't have any insite into who Mary was, or even who Jesus was.  What the Dead Sea Scrolls do provide though is an interesting look into how this group of Jews lived at that time. Wow I knind of surprised we are having a parralel conversation.  OK let me try again.  it's has little to nothing to do with the contents of the scrolls.  It is the fact you have so much ancient text to translate OTHER texts.  Some believe that young woman and virgin are interchangable.  Close, but not exactly correct.  And as I said, people are very defensive of their interpreation of Christianity as they should be. If you beleive in the immacualte conception thing, that is great.  And I don't mean that in a sarcastic way by any means.  Faith is a great thing for those who use it correctly.

I am just saying that whenever anyone quotes something out of the Dead Sea Scrolls it is not proof of anything.  Two different groups of people, who had nothing to do with each other.

Even the fucking Site Staff here are TROLLS!!!!................and kooky froot loops.

As I have said in many another post about this movie, I would prefer to watch "The Ten Commandments" instead.  

Quoted: Quoted: I to, thought the movie was boring, but I am not a Christian.  I saw the movie at the request of my girlfriend, who is.  However, I am going to chose to abstain from bad mouthing a movie that means so much to many people.   And as someone who loves Jesus and what He did for me on that Cross, I appreciate your reverence a great deal.

Yeah, but is it true that Moses later became president of the NRA?  

Quoted: Even the fucking Site Staff here are TROLLS!!!!................and kooky froot loops.

Isn't this a troll post now too?

Quoted: I recommend History of the World: Part I Of the Mel's, Brooks knew a thing or two about the period.

Actually I have found the definitive work in this field to be "Life of Brian"  

Quoted: We could sure use some rain here. It did rain back in March and we got a good three or four hours worth of rain. Last week shocker of all shockers a cloud rolled though and almost got my roof wet enough to have drips land in the gutters but not quite that much. We go eight or nine months without a drop of rain normally.

That was a cloud?

I thought it was just another meth lab explosion....



SSGtar5

Has anyone seen the Holy Grail?

"...bring out the holy hand grenade..."

Quoted: What you miss is that the Dead Sea Scrolls allowed better translation of anciant Bible texts that now prove Mary was a young woman and SATAN is simply a political/military adversary.

Mistranslation?  I'm afraid it is simply a "translation" - and the dead sea scrolls have nothing to do with it.    In fact, your statement shows an almost complete ignorance of the history of the term.

Satan - Old English Satan, from Late Latin Satan, from Greek Satanas, from Hebrew satan "adversary, one who plots against another." The Hebrew is pronounced more like "saw-tawn".

You seem to take issue with the use of the term "Satan" as a proper name to refer to the common theological concept of "The devil."  Furthermore, you claim that the Dead Sea scrolls somehow recently shed insight in order to disprov this.

"The devil" is referred to as Satan throughout the book of Revelation. "The devil" is first referred to a "the devil" in John. All Old Testament references are subject of intense theological debate and not so clear-cut.

I will reference the KJV here when quoting English biblical text, so as to to start a debate with the KJV-advocates.

In at least one place, the "satan"/"adversary" is on God's side. In Numbers 22:22 ("And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants [were] with him."), the angel of the Lord is the adversary(satan) sent by God to challenge Balaak and show him the error of his ways. This angel was most definitely not "the Devil."

I Chronicles 21:1 ("And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.") is the first time it is usually translated as "Satan."

"Adversary" in the Old Testament is also tsarar or similar words based on another Hebrew root, meaning "one who vexes or harasses you". Job's adversary is "Satan", but in Exodus 23:22, when God says "...I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries", the word used is tsarar.

In many places, "adversary" is used when "Satan" probably could have been used. I Peter 5:8 says "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." The Greek Septuagint had used antidikos for "adversary" and diabolos for "devil," and the Latin Vulgate uses adversarius for "adversary" and diabolus for "devil." In Classical Greek, antidikos is a particular type of adversary, an opponent in a lawsuit, so the context is more "one who challenges you" than "one who defies or fights you", as the Hebrew satan connotes.

"diabolos" is what the Greek Septuagint usually translates the Hebrew satan as, so in the Greek version, Job's adversary is diabolos.

Either way, the personification of this "adversary" was well established by New Testament times, and many biblical scholars over the last 2,000 plus years have been able to study the evolution of the term and the original Hebrew and Greek source material.  The idea that the dead sea scrolls recently "proved" a misinterpretation is laughable at best.

The same, of course, can be said for Mary and the whole virginity thing - but enough others have covered that quite well - but this I have to ridicule you for personally:

Originally Posted By [the aptly named] ar50troll: Some believe that young woman and virgin are interchangable. Close, but not exactly correct. And as I said, people are very defensive of their interpreation of Christianity as they should be. If you beleive in the immacualte conception thing, that is great.

I gather from this that when you speak of the "Immaculate Conception," you refer to Jesus being conceived of a virgin.  Learn at least A LITTLE about the religions you claim to know so much about before you spout your know-it-all rants.

The Immaculate Conception doctrine holds that MARY was conceived and born without the taint of original sin.  IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH VIRGIN / NON-VIRGIN BIRTH.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wow, I don't want to stand next to you during a storm. Well don't come here.  Been raining for 4 days hence the reason I am not at work and left with the option of renting fiction. You realize that there are historical accounts outside of the Bible of His being scourged and crucified, don't you? Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

none that have withstood scholarship.

There is as much evidence to support the existence of Jesus as there is to support the existence of Hercules.  Which is kind of fitting since they were both the son of god.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This discussion always goes to hell around here(Pun intended)  As the Dead Sea Scrolls are deciphered it has been proven Mary was not a virgin.  The text was misread.  Mary was a young girl, not a virgin.  The same applies to the Devil himself.  Satan was mistranslated from ha-satan which is Hebrew from adversary.  I believe in God, but Mel Gibsons movie is very innacurate and should be judged as such.  He glorifies violence for a profit.  Not to mention Mel is a your all going to hell if you don't believe exactly as I do kind of personality. The parts of the movie I saw were not historically accurate to the degree that we know what happened so long ago.  The gratuitous use of violence was not tasteful.  Many her attack that notion due to the subject matter.  Violence is violence.  If it's the alledged son of God or not. now like the 1st sentance said, this will spriral out of control into a pissing match shortly so let me reiterate.  I believe in God.  I do not believe in the mis translated text of the bible. The Hebrew word for virgin and young maiden is interchangable. In the Jewish mind and culture, a young maiden was equal to a virgin since when she got married, she was no longer considered a young maiden or girl. This is called knowing the culture of the day and a little experience with Biblical language. Patsue

funny Jewish scholars don't agree with you

Quoted: I don't believe the Bible is 100% accurate, but the message is. SGatr15

even as an agnostic I have to give that a +1

don't get bogged down in the details.  

Quoted: Quoted: I don't believe the Bible is 100% accurate, but the message is. SGatr15 even as an agnostic I have to give that a +1 don't get bogged down in the details.

Like the "detail" that Christ existed?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews Chapter 3 verse 3 "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of  such men as recieve the truth with pleasure.  he drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles.  He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had fortold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the trib of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day" Josephus was born in 37 AD and died sometime after 100 AD patsue According to many scholars, the authenticity of that passage is questionable...just so ya know...but that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't exist...just that I find the whole supernatural part of the story kinda hard to swallow... Sure, and according to many scholars, that passage is exactly what Josephus wrote.   patsue

only apologists maintain that passage to be unaltered by later  Christian forgers

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't believe the Bible is 100% accurate, but the message is. SGatr15 even as an agnostic I have to give that a +1 don't get bogged down in the details.   Like the "detail" that Christ existed?

I think he existed, but its purely a belief on my part.  It has no evidenciary basis beyond the Bible.  
It has more to do with my feelings about  the mythical archetypes.  I think any hero/saviour who ever existed is based on a real human being at some point.    King Arthur, Perseus, Hercules, Achilles, Hector, Krishna, etc... are based on human beings who lived at some point.   The problem is with layer up layer of myth added on top of them the concept of a "Historical Jesus" is as intangible as a "Historical Hercules"

The mythicist position (that jesus never existed) is similar to a hard atheists position.  If you can't prove it exists, then it doesn't exist.  I'm an agnostic.  I believe in things to a degree comensurate with the evidence to support them.  

I think Jesus existed but if evidence somehow proves he did not (how do you prove a negative?) it won't upset my worlview much.

Quoted: It has no evidenciary basis beyond the Bible.

Sigh.....

If you say so....

Quoted: The point of the movie wasn't to teach you the New Testament or convert you, it was meant to show the painful PHYSICAL sacrifice Jesus made and the faith he had in God even when blood is required. I bold physical because that's all people seem to understand nowadays.

Exactly. Imagine trying to portray the absolute horror of having Your Father, Almighty God Himself, turn His back on You because of the sins of OTHER people......

Wow mods trolling what next.

I agree with a early poster, you must be a heartless basturd

As always, the Bible is true.  

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Jesus Christ said that he came to bring DIVISION.  And he does.  Everywhere.

Even in this thread.

Know why men end up in hell?  They want to be their own god.  They will not humble themselves before Him.  They will not trust the salvation that God has provided through the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bad news.  God is going to let you be your own god.

You will be placed for all eternity in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.  (God never wanted men to end up there.)  You will be able to be your own god there.  If you can create light you will have light.  If you can create peace, you will have peace.  If you can create joy, you will have joy.  If you can create hope, you will have hope.

But since you are a false, dead god you will be able to create nothing and will be in outer darkness, weeping, wailing and gnashing your teeth.

For all eternity.

And it isn't because GOD wants it that way....

It is because you want nothing to do with God.

God wants YOU - he proved it on that cross that you mock.

Quoted: The Dead Sea Scrolls were written by a group of Jews who did not believe Jesus to be the Son of God.

Ummm, isn't that the definition of Judaism?

And I loved the movie. Very moving and powerful.

Quoted: There is as much evidence to support the existence of Jesus as there is to support the existence of Hercules.  Which is kind of fitting since they were both the son of god.

The single educated statement in this whole post.....

Quoted: Quoted: The Dead Sea Scrolls were written by a group of Jews who did not believe Jesus to be the Son of God. Ummm, isn't that the definition of Judaism? And I loved the movie. Very moving and powerful.

These Jews lived far from Jerusalem.  They lived their lives in communal societies away from the temple.

Thread has run it's course.... 4 pages and no one asked what the best movie I ever slept through was.