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Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:37:59 PM EDT
[#1]



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Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.  



A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.


not if it saves the lives of you and your family.  






It is a huge problem.   Logistics.  How long are you going to be able to keep those intercept launchers topped off when each interceptor costs 50~100X as much as the katusha it's shooting down?







C0unter-battery for the win.



Using either aircraft or guided missiles including GPS guided



Once you fire against Iron Dome your launcher location is a simple target.





Wonder how long it'll take Hamas to design a randomized mid-course veer into the Qassam with a routed venturi or something to throw off the interceptors...


Or just put the launchers in a school courtyard like they've been doing for a while now. No need to re-invent the wheel here.

 



Counter battery will never favor the Israelis
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:41:46 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


How many dollars worth of damage would the $10k rocket do?

Plus, the computer only fires on rockets headed for populated areas.

$100k missile could be a bargain.



While the potential damage is important, in the long run you don't want to be shooting missiles that cost 10x what the rockets cost for very long.  It's just not sustainable.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:44:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


How many dollars worth of damage would the $10k rocket do?

Plus, the computer only fires on rockets headed for populated areas.

$100k missile could be a bargain.



While the potential damage is important, in the long run you don't want to be shooting missiles that cost 10x what the rockets cost for very long.  It's just not sustainable.


It doesn't have to be sustainable.  The Israeli public feels safer, so there is less demand for a ground campaign.


Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:46:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.  

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.

not if it saves the lives of you and your family.  



It is a huge problem.   Logistics.  How long are you going to be able to keep those intercept launchers topped off when each interceptor costs 50~100X as much as the katusha it's shooting down?



C0unter-battery for the win.

Using either aircraft or guided missiles including GPS guided

Once you fire against Iron Dome your launcher location is a simple target.


Quassam rockets are fired off of pieces of scrap metal and timer fired. Counter battery fire doesn't do much good when the only thing to hit are pieces of scrap metal.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:47:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work!  It's a fantasy!



What is the shoot vs. impact/interception ratio?

If any of you remember the SCUD attacks... It was reported again and again
(with spectacular video)
that they were successfully intercepting them with Patriot batteries.

It was simply not true,
but was repeated ad nauseum for propaganda value.

With that in mind:  What is the ACTUAL rocket shoot to rocket impact/interception ratio?

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 4:53:38 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:...Long enough to send a few thousand palestinians to meet Allah.  Which is probably long enough.  




You do know the Izzys ARE NOT shooting the Iron Dome missles at the Pali's, RIGHT?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:00:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Works great, but the assymetric cost is a problem.  

A cynic might wonder if HAMAS is simply depleting the izzy magazines to some future purpose.


What's the dollar amount of a human life?


According to the Federal government, in 2012, about $8 million.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:06:09 PM EDT
[#8]



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!




Thankfully it costs a 1/10 of that.




Not quite.  Wikipedia sez...



$90k/missile

$50M/battery



So yeah, I was exaggerating.  But it's still a significant disparity to a dumb rocket being launched.  As I research I'm also seeing that they are very good at determining landing sites and only launching missiles to intercept those that threaten populated areas.




Article I read stated 40k per.



Referencing Wikipedia? Really?  


Newsflash: Just made a Wiki update and now it only costs $500 to knock down a $10,000 missile. Israel can now keep knocking down missiles until Hamas runs out of money!




Wikipedia: Where idiots make up the truth and bigger idiots read it, believe it, and spread it around like it's the gospel.  



 
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:09:55 PM EDT
[#9]
full brigade counter battery.
either they will run out of missles or populated grid squares
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:15:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


Thankfully it costs a 1/10 of that.


Not quite.  Wikipedia sez...

$90k/missile
$50M/battery

So yeah, I was exaggerating.  But it's still a significant disparity to a dumb rocket being launched.  As I research I'm also seeing that they are very good at determining landing sites and only launching missiles to intercept those that threaten populated areas.


Article I read stated 40k per.

Referencing Wikipedia? Really?  

Newsflash: Just made a Wiki update and now it only costs $500 to knock down a $10,000 missile. Israel can now keep knocking down missiles until Hamas runs out of money!


Wikipedia: Where idiots make up the truth and bigger idiots read it, believe it, and spread it around like it's the gospel.  

 


http://m.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/how-israels-iron-dome-intercepts-incoming-rockets-gaza-conflict-1C7127842
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:18:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:29:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
How well has it worked - percentages of incoming knocked out ?


I keep asking that question, everyone glosses over it, then go on and on about the per-interceptor cost...  
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:39:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
How well has it worked - percentages of incoming knocked out ?


I keep asking that question, everyone glosses over it, then go on and on about the per-interceptor cost...  


Link above says about 85%.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:42:02 PM EDT
[#14]
Automated counter-battery is the future IMO.

You have a system that automatically fires counter-battery...VERY serious counter-battery. I'm talking like 4-16 shells. It doesn't have to be that precise really. The catch is that it has to fire completely automatically without any kind of human intervention. This way, when they fire their rockets from, oh, a school or something, and the school gets fucking obliterated by the system, they can't blame it on you.

Other than the cost of the shells, you aren't paying out the ass for interceptors. You're paying for the hardware then the overhead of software development.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:54:28 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Automated counter-battery is the future IMO.

You have a system that automatically fires counter-battery...VERY serious counter-battery. I'm talking like 4-16 shells. It doesn't have to be that precise really. The catch is that it has to fire completely automatically without any kind of human intervention. This way, when they fire their rockets from, oh, a school or something, and the school gets fucking obliterated by the system...


Shoot a dummy rocket from in front of your advesaries embassy ex wifes house.  

Link Posted: 11/21/2012 6:20:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Automated counter-battery is the future IMO.

You have a system that automatically fires counter-battery...VERY serious counter-battery. I'm talking like 4-16 shells. It doesn't have to be that precise really. The catch is that it has to fire completely automatically without any kind of human intervention. This way, when they fire their rockets from, oh, a school or something, and the school gets fucking obliterated by the system...


Shoot a dummy rocket from in front of your advesaries embassy ex wifes house.  


FTW
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 1:13:44 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How well has it worked - percentages of incoming knocked out ?


I keep asking that question, everyone glosses over it, then go on and on about the per-interceptor cost...  


Link above says about 85%.


An Iron Dome launcher fires an interceptor rocket near the southern town of Sderot Photo: REUTERS
Alex Spillius

By Alex Spillius, Diplomatic Correspondent

5:06PM GMT 15 Nov 2012

As of Thursday afternoon, the Israel military said Iron Dome had intercepted 90 of an estimated 250 rockets fired by militant groups in the Palestinian territory in the previous 24 hours.

That ratio may not look particularly impressive, but the system is smart enough to ignore missiles that it detects are heading for open land or farmland. During previous but less intense barrages, the Israelis have claimed Iron Dome has brought down 85 per cent of the rockets it has targeted.

Successful hits by Iron Dome’s interceptor missiles could be seen in palls of smoke high above southern Israel throughout the day.

“It’s unbelievable, we are very pleased with how Iron Dome has been operating,” said a spokesman for the Israeli Defence Force. “Even if the situation is very difficult for residents of southern Israel, we can only imagine what it would have been like without these defences.”

Designed to operate at short distances, each interceptor costs £25,000, with the cost of each of the three or four batteries currently in operation estimated at £1.3 million each.
Related Articles

Pregnant Israeli missionary among those killed as Hamas wreaks revenge

The system was built by the Israeli firm Rafael Advanced Defence Systems, though the extent of America’s contribution has not been disclosed. Gen Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, acknowledged his country’s involvement with the project during a visit to Israel last month.

He said the US military was “proud” to be “partners to a very successful initiative”. Washington typically provides Israel with £2 billion worth of aid annually, most of it used for military purposes.

Some of those funds go towards the precision bombs deployed in strikes on Gaza since Wednesday that have killed 15 Palestinians, including at least seven Hamas militants, and caused collateral damage in congested areas.

The technology used by militant groups in Gaza is primitive by comparison. The majority of their missiles are home-made, unguided Qassam rockets, constructed with basic metal tubing and propelled by sugar and fertiliser.

Named after the Ezzadine al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, most hit open land and inflict no casualties.

“They are cheap, basic but nonetheless effective,” said Col Richard Kemp of the Royal United Services Institute. “They are not the fireworks that people sometimes say they are. They are very effective if they hit their target.”

Militants also have stockpiles of Russian-made Grad missiles and Iranian-made Fajr missiles. One of the latter is believed to have hit Rishon LeTzion, a town nine miles southeast of Tel Aviv, yesterday afternoon.

David Hartwell, senior Middle East analyst at IHS Jane’s, said Gaza militants had come to rely on rockets as a means of spreading terror among Israeli communities after other options were severely limited by Israel’s security measures.

“They rely more on luck than judgement, but they are effective as a weapon of terror because no one knows where they are going to land,” he said.

Israel’s multi-layered defence systems include David’s Sling, also known as the Magic Wand, which intercepts medium-range rockets and missiles and is due to be operational in 2015.

The Arrow 2 and Arrow 3, jointly developed by Israel Aerospace Industries and the U Boeing, complete the multi-layered system, are designed for to intercept longer range missiles fired from Iran.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 3:26:10 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:

Quoted:
B-b-b-but... missile defense will NEVER work!  It's a fantasy!


Shooting down short range rockets is a rather different ball game that a MIRV from an ICBM.    

As to the laser system, the Issy's don't have the kind of money we do.  They need stuff that they can deploy on the (relative) cheap.

Spending countless billions on a laser is probably not in the cards for them.


Correction - we don't have any money - carry on
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 3:50:38 AM EDT
[#19]
As goofy as this sounds - the downside of the Iron Dome success is less world support for Israel bombing Gaza or the West Bank, etc...  "Yeah, you were shot AT, but you weren't hit."
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 3:52:20 AM EDT
[#20]
As goofy as this sounds - the downside of the Iron Dome success is less world support for Israel bombing Gaza or the West Bank, etc...  "Yeah, you were shot AT, but you weren't hit."
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 4:30:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Those Iron Dome missiles will get cheaper when purchased in quantity.  A purchase of 1,000 missiles has a much higher unit cost than a purchase of 100,000 missiles.  
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 4:43:27 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
How well has it worked - percentages of incoming knocked out ?


According to the link I posted, they've had some salvos where the rate has reached 100%.

And the overall number is rising the more they use it.

I can't see why - pro-Palestinian partisanship aside - anyone would object to it.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 4:48:40 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


How many dollars worth of damage would the $10k rocket do?

Plus, the computer only fires on rockets headed for populated areas.

$100k missile could be a bargain.



Iron dome is around 40K a round.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 4:59:14 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let's use a $500k missile to knock down a $10k rocket!


How many dollars worth of damage would the $10k rocket do?

Plus, the computer only fires on rockets headed for populated areas.

$100k missile could be a bargain.



I could swear I read somewhere that when the IDF did a cost breakdown of damage from a hit in a populated area vs the cost of an Iron Dome interceptor, Iron Dome was cheaper on a per-shot cost.


I saw it on CNN, of all places.




Now imagine comparing the numbers for Iron Dome with the cost of a three month ground action inside Gaza.

Israel has a duty to its citizens to prevent rocket attacks.  Iron Dome costs significantly less in terms of money, international community bullshit, and lives.  

It is hilarious to see people criticize it.  I just want the U.S. to make an ICBM-killing version and deploy it everywhere.
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