Quoted: Quoted: Saying "supply-demand" in a situation that is actually neccesity driven doesn't work. That's exactly why the free market won't work with respect to things like the food supply.

Huh? Our food supply system is not a free market?

Quoted: Quoted: METT-T: But the free market approach to modern medicine ain't working. It's killing people. we don't have a "free market". Ever hear of medicare? Medicare doesn't affect the market much.  For one thing, it only affects a small percentage of the population.  It also doesn't have much impact on the inelasticity of the demand for care.

It effects a large percentage. In fact, it effects all of us: the "managed care/HMO" thing resulted from government regulation, which resulted from Medicare "fraud", which resulted from a system where high prices could be charged to a number of individuals who happen to get a high % of the medical treatment.

Maybe those who have Medicare only make up 15% of the market, but they probably recieve in excess of 30% of the care, and before the .gov craked down, they were in effect the cash cow for the medical community.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Saying "supply-demand" in a situation that is actually neccesity driven doesn't work. That's exactly why the free market won't work with respect to things like the food supply. Huh? Our food supply system is not a free market?

Of course it's a free market. Don't you see how badly it has failed?

Food costs so much, I have to spend more than $1.50 for a cheeseburger at In-N-Out. And I have to travel a whole 1/4 mile to get there.

Edited to add: The humanity of it all! The starvation! Critical items like the food supply should never be left to the free market.

I no longer see women like I used to.  I guess my friends wife is attractive but I dont see it really.  Its gotten to a point where I have kind of become asexual.  Between the stress and physical toll, nothing makes me happier then coming home sitting in front of the tube, flicking on the History channel and drinking a cold one.  Sex is too much work!   We went to a buddys bachelor party and my interaction with the stripper encompassed a discussion about her c-section and boob job.  She thought I was a wacko.  Oh well thats the price we pay.  

Quoted: I no longer see women like I used to.  I guess my friends wife is attractive but I dont see it really.  Its gotten to a point where I have kind of become asexual.  Between the stress and physical toll, nothing makes me happier then coming home sitting in front of the tube, flicking on the History channel and drinking a cold one.  Sex is too much work!   We went to a buddys bachelor party and my interaction with the stripper encompassed a discussion about her c-section and boob job.  She thought I was a wacko.  Oh well thats the price we pay.

After seeing/smelling what a 300+ pounder has been oozing for the last few weeks, it does kind of put a damper on things at home, doesn't it? Three or four of those in a day can change your perspective.  When the wife gets that look in her eye, sometimes all I can think is, "Get that thing away from me."

Kerry said he has Blue cross blue shield. My question is Why do rich people have insurance? Kerry could easily pay cash for ANY procedure or surgery. Same goes for anybody who is rich.

The really aggravating thing about healthcare is that we get to subsidize the millions of people who don't care about their health. That one really gets to me. My employer provides us with insurance and I get so mad when people go to the doctor for the most minor shit. Then they bitch about the cost.

Health insurance should be like auto or homeowners'.  You pay for the minor stuff and maintenance; the policy is there for the catastrophes.

Quoted: Quoted: I no longer see women like I used to.  I guess my friends wife is attractive but I dont see it really.  Its gotten to a point where I have kind of become asexual.  Between the stress and physical toll, nothing makes me happier then coming home sitting in front of the tube, flicking on the History channel and drinking a cold one.  Sex is too much work!   We went to a buddys bachelor party and my interaction with the stripper encompassed a discussion about her c-section and boob job.  She thought I was a wacko.  Oh well thats the price we pay.   After seeing/smelling what a 300+ pounder has been oozing for the last few weeks, it does kind of put a damper on things at home, doesn't it? Three or four of those in a day can change your perspective.  When the wife gets that look in her eye, sometimes all I can think is, "Get that thing away from me."

OK! Mods please lock his account....................................He has ruined the beloved PIE

Quoted: Before you make a lot of assumptions, perhaps you should go read up on the topic. Most national health care systems pay LESS than the cost of production plus amortized R&D costs for pharmaceuticals. One of the only nations where this is not true is the US. So, US consumers get to pay essentially ALL the R&D costs. The drug companies continue to sell in such countries because they do make money on some drugs they sell there, if you do not include R&D costs. They get to have US consumer pay the full R&D tab. Hence my proposal.

I work for an international medical equipment company,so I'll save the reading for work.
If you read my second paragraph, you'll see that I covered the concept of overhead being absorbed by the US prices,though I've not seen it happen in the niche market we cover. Generally at our level (selling mostly non-consumables with a limited market), the foreign clinics use government subsidies to lower their end cost. We keep our prices the same. If we didn't cover our costs, we simply wouldn't sell there. With non-consumables there's less point in glutting a market to boost sales at the expense of margin.
Remember, part of what we are paying for in R&D costs is FDA approval as well as all of the other little costs that Americans drive upon ourselves with legislation. It's the opportunity cost of safety in medicine. Take that away with price ceilings like the rest of the world has, and margins will not be cut-expenses will. That means overall reductions in R&D (and employment). At this point, if America doesn't pay for it, no one will. As long as we're willing to face that,ok.

The materiels and services are less expensive in third world countries cause they don't have asshat attornies like JOHN EDWARDS sueing the ass off of pharmaceutical companies and physicians. The hospital charges are so high because they give away free care to those who can't/don't pay. You pay for your stuff and the stuff the guy in the ER had last week cause he can't sober up long enough to get a job with health insurance.Then the insurance companies pay 30-40 cents on the dollar of billed services, equipment, and supplies,cause their share holders want to make a few bucks on their investments. Of course our medical care would be cheaper if we had services like they do in Mexico or Iran. But people aren't busting their asses to get into those countries cause the standard of living is better than the other third world shitholes where they live.

And Doc, just a minute. Isn't you bitching about the cost of healthcare a bit like the pot calling the kettle black? After all you have taken advantage of the education system in this country to better yourself, afforded yourself a medical degree and made, I must assume, a pretty good living. After being in the medical field for 30 years I can assure you that despite any arguments you make to the contrary, you and every physician I have ever known have gotten into medicine for one thing, and that is to be able to make a better than average income.

It sucks that people can't afford health insurance, that they have to go to the ER to get medical care, but thats the way the system has evolved. Let me give you an example. Several weeks ago I was taking my dog out the back door, and I missed the one step down to the patio.I fell on my knee and tweaked it pretty good. I work in an OR every day and have for decades. I know how to work the system. I couldn't get a doctors appointment to get my knee looked at the next day for any amount of money, and by the time I was done i was ready to go to the ER just to get someone to take a look at it. I finally scored some Celebrex from one of the Nurse First Assistants that works with a local Orthopod, but I can absolutely see how people get frustrated enough to go to the ER in the middle of the night to get treated for the sore throat, earache, belly pain, ingrown toenail, itchy rash that they have had for the last twoweeks.Hell most of m have been trying to get it treated for that long! But I degress.

Yeah it sucks, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere else, doing anything else.

Quoted: Kerry said he has Blue cross blue shield. My question is Why do rich people have insurance? Kerry could easily pay cash for ANY procedure or surgery. Same goes for anybody who is rich. The really aggravating thing about healthcare is that we get to subsidize the millions of people who don't care about their health. That one really gets to me. My employer provides us with insurance and I get so mad when people go to the doctor for the most minor shit. Then they bitch about the cost.

Health insurance got its start back during WW2, as a means of increasing empoyee salery via the backdoor. Just an unintended consequence of the government interference in the market durign WW2--and one of the ones that later helped jack up health care prices.

Quoted: Quoted: The system has grown to become an entitlement for doctor's submitting claims to their insured's company who will pay for nearly any treatment and at any "pravailing rate."  That is the touchstone.   So, if the prevailing rate is $600 for an IUD, and the policy is written to pay that, then that is what the doctor gets.  Market foces no longer play a role where the one actually receiving the product or service foots the bill.   The real problem is the insurance system itself.    (and government regulation of it--see the above posts).   The analogy is car insurance.  Imaging what it would cost if it covered spark plugs, tires, oil and filters, shocks, batteries, light bulbs, et. al.   The cost would be ENORMOUS.  Now, add in that the policy with pay $100 for a lightbulb IF the prevailing rate for that bulb is $100.   No one would be able to afford car insurance.  Or, at least we'd be in the same boat as for health insurance--rapidly rising rates with no end in sight.   The real issue is the entitlement mentality of Americans that we should just have health care because...just because. Add into that the lack of a true free market for the product, and you have out of control rates. I'm no economist, but IMHO this is PRECISELY the problem. The solution?  Ban health insurance as we know it... make everyone write a check for the services they consume, with the exception of major catastrophic coverage (heart attack, stroke, cancer, etc.).  MSAs are a step in the right direction. --Mike

[shamless whore for my own post]

YES!  

Finally, an echo in the wilderness.  


Those who wish to pay for comprehensive coverage should pay more, MUCH more than those who simply want catastrophic coverage.  


As the system stands now, along with the intersection of .gov regs, every insured pays for care whether they take it or not, and those combined drive up the costs.  

I've not been sick or seen a doctor in years.  Yet I pay the same someone with 3 kids and who goes for every cough and knee scrape.  

The market would work this out but it is not in the current model.  

Quoted: Quoted: Before you make a lot of assumptions, perhaps you should go read up on the topic. Most national health care systems pay LESS than the cost of production plus amortized R&D costs for pharmaceuticals. One of the only nations where this is not true is the US. So, US consumers get to pay essentially ALL the R&D costs. The drug companies continue to sell in such countries because they do make money on some drugs they sell there, if you do not include R&D costs. They get to have US consumer pay the full R&D tab. Hence my proposal. I work for an international medical equipment company,so I'll save the reading for work. If you read my second paragraph, you'll see that I covered the concept of overhead being absorbed by the US prices,though I've not seen it happen in the niche market we cover. Generally at our level (selling mostly non-consumables with a limited market), the foreign clinics use government subsidies to lower their end cost. We keep our prices the same. If we didn't cover our costs, we simply wouldn't sell there. With non-consumables there's less point in glutting a market to boost sales at the expense of margin. Remember, part of what we are paying for in R&D costs is FDA approval as well as all of the other little costs that Americans drive upon ourselves with legislation. It's the opportunity cost of safety in medicine. Take that away with price ceilings like the rest of the world has, and margins will not be cut-expenses will. That means overall reductions in R&D (and employment). At this point, if America doesn't pay for it, no one will. As long as we're willing to face that,ok.

But we have a RIGHT to healthcare! We will have to force those damn companies to work producing drugs at gunpoint, if needed.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Saying "supply-demand" in a situation that is actually neccesity driven doesn't work. That's exactly why the free market won't work with respect to things like the food supply. Huh? Our food supply system is not a free market? Of course it's a free market. Don't you see how badly it has failed? Food costs so much, I have to spend more than $1.50 for a cheeseburger at In-N-Out. And I have to travel a whole 1/4 mile to get there. Edited to add: The humanity of it all! The starvation! Critical items like the food supply should never be left to the free market.

Ah, it was sarcasm. My bad.

Quoted: Quoted: I no longer see women like I used to.  I guess my friends wife is attractive but I dont see it really.  Its gotten to a point where I have kind of become asexual.  Between the stress and physical toll, nothing makes me happier then coming home sitting in front of the tube, flicking on the History channel and drinking a cold one.  Sex is too much work!   We went to a buddys bachelor party and my interaction with the stripper encompassed a discussion about her c-section and boob job.  She thought I was a wacko.  Oh well thats the price we pay.   After seeing/smelling what a 300+ pounder has been oozing for the last few weeks, it does kind of put a damper on things at home, doesn't it? Three or four of those in a day can change your perspective.  When the wife gets that look in her eye, sometimes all I can think is, "Get that thing away from me."

I hear you guys. I can't stand doing pelvics anymore. One more skank ho who lets every drunken POS in town jump on top of her and some days I swear I'd rather stab myself in the ear with an icepick and rotorooter my temporal lobe. I can't remember the last time I did a pelvic on anything other than a fat greasy disgusting bitch with a smelly rotten f'ing crotch and green shit oozing out. Not to mention the retained tampon that is 5 days old....It's about enough to make me want to puke. The number of neurotic women out there who are obsessed with their sexual organs is astounding and I will do almost anything to avoid looking up their nasty crotches anymore. If my youngest wasn't getting ready to start college I'd bail on this profession and never look back.

For the mental midgets out there who are caught up in the whole class warfare bullshit, I'll tell you that there are alot of reasons that we get into medicine and money is ONE of them. And yes, I do expect to make a good living. I wouldn't put up with my daily bullshit for any less. Don't f'ing like it? Don't go to the doc. I can tell you most of you should just take better care of yourself and would do fine on your own without all of your pathetic whining over virtually nothing. What a bunch of assholes. Try it yourself if you like...

Dr Jarhead, I keep telling myself the same thing. But I have TWO kids in college, and besides, I think I am too stupid to do anything else....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I no longer see women like I used to.  I guess my friends wife is attractive but I dont see it really.  Its gotten to a point where I have kind of become asexual.  Between the stress and physical toll, nothing makes me happier then coming home sitting in front of the tube, flicking on the History channel and drinking a cold one.  Sex is too much work!   We went to a buddys bachelor party and my interaction with the stripper encompassed a discussion about her c-section and boob job.  She thought I was a wacko.  Oh well thats the price we pay.   After seeing/smelling what a 300+ pounder has been oozing for the last few weeks, it does kind of put a damper on things at home, doesn't it? Three or four of those in a day can change your perspective.  When the wife gets that look in her eye, sometimes all I can think is, "Get that thing away from me." I hear you guys. I can't stand doing pelvics anymore. One more skank ho who lets every drunken POS in town jump on top of her and some days I swear I'd rather stab myself in the ear with an icepick and rotorooter my temporal lobe. I can't remember the last time I did a pelvic on anything other than a fat greasy disgusting bitch with a smelly rotten f'ing crotch and green shit oozing out. Not to mention the retained tampon that is 5 days old....It's about enough to make me want to puke. The number of neurotic women out there who are obsessed with their sexual organs is astounding and I will do almost anything to avoid looking up their nasty crotches anymore. If my youngest wasn't getting ready to start college I'd bail on this profession and never look back. For the mental midgets out there who are caught up in the whole class warfare bullshit, I'll tell you that there are alot of reasons that we get into medicine and money is ONE of them. And yes, I do expect to make a good living. I wouldn't put up with my daily bullshit for any less. Don't f'ing like it? Don't go to the doc. I can tell you most of you should just take better care of yourself and would do fine on your own without all of your pathetic whining over virtually nothing. What a bunch of assholes. Try it yourself if you like...

Damn I wish you were MY doctor.  (not being sarcastic).  

Quoted: Dr Jarhead, I keep telling myself the same thing. But I have TWO kids in college, and besides, I think I am too stupid to do anything else....

LOL. Hopefully, I won't be doing it too much longer. They can import a bunch of foreign docs to fill in for the baby boomers who are all going to be picking up medicare. I'll look out for my own family and to hell with all the self centered assholes out there. I'm at a point where I am virtually debt free and can do just about whatever I want. Once I get my son thru most of his college ed I will do something else.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I no longer see women like I used to.  I guess my friends wife is attractive but I dont see it really.  Its gotten to a point where I have kind of become asexual.  Between the stress and physical toll, nothing makes me happier then coming home sitting in front of the tube, flicking on the History channel and drinking a cold one.  Sex is too much work!   We went to a buddys bachelor party and my interaction with the stripper encompassed a discussion about her c-section and boob job.  She thought I was a wacko.  Oh well thats the price we pay.   After seeing/smelling what a 300+ pounder has been oozing for the last few weeks, it does kind of put a damper on things at home, doesn't it? Three or four of those in a day can change your perspective.  When the wife gets that look in her eye, sometimes all I can think is, "Get that thing away from me." I hear you guys. I can't stand doing pelvics anymore. One more skank ho who lets every drunken POS in town jump on top of her and some days I swear I'd rather stab myself in the ear with an icepick and rotorooter my temporal lobe. I can't remember the last time I did a pelvic on anything other than a fat greasy disgusting bitch with a smelly rotten f'ing crotch and green shit oozing out. Not to mention the retained tampon that is 5 days old....It's about enough to make me want to puke. The number of neurotic women out there who are obsessed with their sexual organs is astounding and I will do almost anything to avoid looking up their nasty crotches anymore. If my youngest wasn't getting ready to start college I'd bail on this profession and never look back. For the mental midgets out there who are caught up in the whole class warfare bullshit, I'll tell you that there are alot of reasons that we get into medicine and money is ONE of them. And yes, I do expect to make a good living. I wouldn't put up with my daily bullshit for any less. Don't f'ing like it? Don't go to the doc. I can tell you most of you should just take better care of yourself and would do fine on your own without all of your pathetic whining over virtually nothing. What a bunch of assholes. Try it yourself if you like... Damn I wish you were MY doctor.  (not being sarcastic).

Thanks I think??
Sorry for the rant. Every now and then these posts hit me at just the wrong time.

Can we drop the shop talk, and get back to beating up on the socialists?

Quoted: Quoted: Dr Jarhead, I keep telling myself the same thing. But I have TWO kids in college, and besides, I think I am too stupid to do anything else.... LOL. Hopefully, I won't be doing it too much longer. They can import a bunch of foreign docs to fill in for the baby boomers who are all going to be picking up medicare. I'll look out for my own family and to hell with all the self centered assholes out there. I'm at a point where I am virtually debt free and can do just about whatever I want. Once I get my son thru most of his college ed I will do something else.

My oldest has a semister plus a few hours till graduation. My youngest just started, and wants to go to medical school...........

Quoted: Quoted: Personally, I think corporate KMart medicine sucks. Maybe go on my own someday--cash only, lower cost of visits.... Hmmmm.... I wish that sort of thing were more common. In September I went in for an "office visit" to get a prescription for some allergy meds. My insurance plan is a combination of a tax free account for healthcare spending, and a high deductible insurance plan for more serious stuff. I ask the lady at the desk what the price is talk with a doc for a bit and get a prescription. She didn't know. I ended up having to talk with three people before I found out that a fricken office visit was going to cost me $101. $101 to talk with the guy for 15 minutes and have him write the name of a drug and his signature on a sheet of paper. I'd love to see lots of docs where you could walk in, see a list of prices for various things, and decide whether or not you want to spend it. No insurance forms etc. This way some market forces might actually come into play to keep things like fucking $101 office visits from happening. Here's how I'd like to see things work for minor annoyances that you still want to talk with a doc about: walk in at my appointed time, talk with the doc, write a check for my bill right then, get a receipt, and use the receipt to make a claim against my health savings account. I'd also like to get rid of the damn "by prescription only" rules for drugs and let people decide whether or not they want to risk taking something without a doctor's guidance. This way I could have skipped the whole damn visit and just went out and bought the drug that I've taken every September for the last 5 years. Let the drug companies put a "we highly recommend you see a doctor before taking this" disclaimer on their products and call it good enough.

Theoretically, yours is an excellent idea. The big problem is that people are already being over-medicated.

The result of people taking unnecessary anti-biotics and anti-viral medications (prescription and over the counter) is that bacteria and viruses are becoming resistant.

If we completely opened up the floodgates we will likely see uncruable diseases everywhere - imagine a world where everyone effectively has AIDS, where our immune systems don't stand a chance against diseases which we have BUILT through over-medicating people.

FAIR WARNING!!  IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH ABOUT MEDICAL/BABY THINGS, DO NOT READ THIS

Just one "Pelvic Nightmare" story:  A couple of years ago I saw a young gal about 16wks pregnant who came in cramping and leaking fluid.  When I put the speculum in I see a 16 week gestation coming out of the os but the head was still in the ute.  I grasped the body with a set of ring forceps and gently exerted traction with some fundal pressure.  All of a sudden "pop"--out it comes, but no head.  It was left up inside.  That gave me the willies for a few days.

thank the trial lawyers.

DrJarhead let me buy you a beer or two if youre in town!  I feel your pain.

Astro, thats nuttin!  I delivered this dead baby that was almost full term.  It came out breech but wouldnt come out fully. So my senior resident and I grabbed the body and gently pulled. And yup, pop off came the head.  Not stuck, it flew out and rolled to the corner of the room.  Freaked me out!  The mom wanted to see the baby. So I had to retrieve the head and we sutured the head back on and put it in a bassenet for the mom.  Talk about willies.  I felt for the poor family.

Yes most docs do make a good living but look at what is invested.  I spent 4 years in college ok, 5 years.  Shit that last year was fun!  4 years in med school.  4 years in residency.  Thats 12 years that a typical doctor has under his belt BEFORE youre a real doctor and can make some money.  That means I am way over 30 before my first real paycheck.  I have $130k in loans.  Just the loans cost me over $1500 a month.  While I was getting slave wages and hours as a resident, my buddies got married bought houses and went on vacation.  I had my first real vacation last year,  went to Maui.  Before that the only other trip I could afford was when my parents sent me to Cancun in high school. I had to give in what is really important and thats kids.  I am planning to start now but most of my friends kids are much older and they have multiples.  Shit I will be drooling and sitting in my wheelchair when my kid graduates from college.  I was 35 when I could afford to buy my first house. Before that I had to live in apartments and dorms.  I think I will shoot myself if I have to live in another apartment again!  

Looking back, there is a lot more easy ways to make a living.  A lot less stressful and fun.  But yesterday a 90 lady gave me a hug because I fixed a problem for her and she doesnt leak any urine anymore.  Its little thing for me but that changed her life.  She actually goes out now and she doesnt sleep in a wet bed night after night.  This is what keeps me going and I hoping that it will buy me some points at the pearly gates.

Then as DrJarhead pointed out the 300+ pounders that we cant really get a weight on because our scales only go up to 350.  2 retained tampons in 1 week.  Did you guys know they turn a nice shade of grey and black after a few days?  The smell can only be compared to a dead body in the sun after several days.  Lets talk discharge.  White, yellow ,green, grey, red.  Fishy, yeasty.  Take your pick.  And you guys like to eat pie.  Next time check to see what flavor it is before you get your bib on and take a bite.

Hmm, did I mention the 17 yo girl with more bling bling then BA?  Driven to the office in her Escalade and has the nerve to pull out a medicaid card?  And how the fuck do these arabs chicks get medicaid cards and they landed in the US not 2 weeks before?  

But what broke my heart was this 61 yo lady with vaginal bleeding. She needed a D and C and some tests done.  Not old enough for medicare but not poor enough for medicaid.  She was too proud to take hand outs.  I cancelled my bill to her but she insisted on making payments to the hospital for their fees.  

OK, I am going to have a beer now.

Quoted: Can we drop the shop talk, and get back to beating up on the socialists?

Hey, start your own thread!

Looks like we've got a pelvic brotherhood going on here

You guys seriously gotta do some research. There is a thread where I argue about Regulating prescription drugs, start there. It's about 7 days old. #1 most drug companies are NOT american, they are German, They just take advantage (bilk us) of the world's only unregulated healthcare system left. Most Medical research is done abroad as well, so most don't belong to US only patents. #2 The conglomerates Will take what they can get, If they stopped selling to so-called "socialist" regulated countries the only country they could do business with is the US, Which would cut profits like 75%. And if they were to try and force other countries to "Deregulate", they would just ignore patent rights and make generic brands made of the same molecule (medicine). We are NOT subsidising or giving hand outs or that other stuff to the 3rd world (by third world I guess you mean the rest of the world).
Are Lawyers and insurance companies to blame?? YES! but there are many many factors that have driven up the cost in the US. But the main reason is this - They do it cause they Can!!

I cringe everytime one of our guys here wants to eat PIE!  Blah!  LOL.  There are several thousand species of bacteria and.......never mind!  

Quoted: I just put an IUD in my buddy's wife.  They just got the bill.  The bill for the cost of the implant was $450 and the service was $150.  The insurance paid $48.  This is fucked up.  But it gets worse.  The same fucking IUD is $35 in Mexico and $1.79 in fucking Iran of all places. Then go to fucking Iran or Mexico & get infected & die. Or STFU. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine. How many are obese or have smoked or drank like a fish all their life & contributed to their poor health with poor life decisions? How many live alone, paying all the bills by theirselves instead of having a roommate to share them with? I am all for the drug companies making money. Then why even bring them up? They do the research and they should get paid.  But they need to spread the pain. So you're a socialist too, eh? This is ridiculous.   Then quit & work for the Peace Corps or the military or STFU.

If you dont like it dont go to the fucking doctor.  Why dont you STFU and stuff it up your ass.  Thank you.

Quoted: Quoted: I just put an IUD in my buddy's wife.  They just got the bill.  The bill for the cost of the implant was $450 and the service was $150.  The insurance paid $48.  This is fucked up.  But it gets worse.  The same fucking IUD is $35 in Mexico and $1.79 in fucking Iran of all places. Then go to fucking Iran or Mexico & get infected & die. Or STFU. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine. How many are obese or have smoked or drank like a fish all their life & contributed to their poor health with poor life decisions? How many live alone, paying all the bills by theirselves instead of having a roommate to share them with? I am all for the drug companies making money. Then why even bring them up? They do the research and they should get paid.  But they need to spread the pain. So you're a socialist too, eh? This is ridiculous.   Then quit & work for the Peace Corps or the military or STFU.

Did you even read the entire damn thread BOB?

He was talking about the US subsidizing forigen countries drug supplies. Thats partially why drugs are cheaper overseas, we give companies tax breaks and money to sell drugs cheaper to third world rat holes.

ARDOC was commenting that the US should stop engaging in socialism and take the world off our teet.

Jesus read the thread before you fly off the handle there BOB.

Quoted: Quoted: I just put an IUD in my buddy's wife.  They just got the bill.  The bill for the cost of the implant was $450 and the service was $150.  The insurance paid $48.  This is fucked up.  But it gets worse.  The same fucking IUD is $35 in Mexico and $1.79 in fucking Iran of all places. Then go to fucking Iran or Mexico & get infected & die. Or STFU. Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine. How many are obese or have smoked or drank like a fish all their life & contributed to their poor health with poor life decisions? How many live alone, paying all the bills by theirselves instead of having a roommate to share them with? I am all for the drug companies making money. Then why even bring them up? They do the research and they should get paid.  But they need to spread the pain. So you're a socialist too, eh? This is ridiculous.   Then quit & work for the Peace Corps or the military or STFU.

Ah yes, another borderline personality....
Gee Bob, what is the point of this?

Quoted: Quoted: The system has grown to become an entitlement for doctor's submitting claims to their insured's company who will pay for nearly any treatment and at any "pravailing rate."  That is the touchstone.   So, if the prevailing rate is $600 for an IUD, and the policy is written to pay that, then that is what the doctor gets.  Market foces no longer play a role where the one actually receiving the product or service foots the bill.   The real problem is the insurance system itself.    (and government regulation of it--see the above posts).   The analogy is car insurance.  Imaging what it would cost if it covered spark plugs, tires, oil and filters, shocks, batteries, light bulbs, et. al.   The cost would be ENORMOUS.  Now, add in that the policy with pay $100 for a lightbulb IF the prevailing rate for that bulb is $100.   No one would be able to afford car insurance.  Or, at least we'd be in the same boat as for health insurance--rapidly rising rates with no end in sight.   The real issue is the entitlement mentality of Americans that we should just have health care because...just because. Add into that the lack of a true free market for the product, and you have out of control rates. I'm no economist, but IMHO this is PRECISELY the problem. The solution?  Ban health insurance as we know it... make everyone write a check for the services they consume, with the exception of major catastrophic coverage (heart attack, stroke, cancer, etc.).  MSAs are a step in the right direction. --Mike

The solution is to ban GROUP HEALTH INSURANCE, of the type you get from your employer...

Health insurance as an investment is fine, but like other types of insurance, your rate should be based on your risk factors and your consumption of insurance services...

In the car insurance industry, your neighbor with 10 points & 4 accidents may pay 5x the price you do with a clean record, and when you make a claim your rates go up...

In the health insurance industry as it is now, if your co-worker goes to the Doc every time she gets the cold or flu, her rates don't go up, and the entire group foots the bill, instead of the irresponsable consumer...

Further, if another co-worker drinks heavily, smokes 4 packs a day, weighs 250 lbs of almost pure fat, and such, he is charged the same rate as someone who weighs 160, doesn't smoke, and only has a glass of wine at the occasional dinner party... The costs of person #1's foolish lifestyle are foisted on everyone, as the company cannot raise his rates under the group system...

The solution is to make health insurance like car insurance, and have everyon pay according to the non-catestrophic care that they consume, and their exhibited lifestyle (eg a DUI or drug conviction, or evidence of cigarette use, should raise your health insurance rates)...

Actually I understand what your angry about, but if we can give them away to middle easterners, I'm all for it.

Quoted: I just put an IUD in my buddy's wife.  They just got the bill.  The bill for the cost of the implant was $450 and the service was $150.  The insurance paid $48.  This is fucked up.  But it gets worse.  The same fucking IUD is $35 in Mexico and $1.79 in fucking Iran of all places.  Why are we subsidizing the fucking health of the world.  Why are my old patients going without meals so they can pay for medicine.  I am all for the drug companies making money.  They do the research and they should get paid.  But they need to spread the pain.  This is ridiculous.  I give away as much samples as I can.  A small victory for me and the $30 that it saves some old lady its a weeks worth of groceries.

Life isn't fair nor is a Republic supposed to PROVIDE the needs of the people to the people... that's SOCIALISM. I understand, however, that the government should also not make their own people a "Hunting Ground' for healthcare companies to make lucritive profits. This is life... people suffer... brave men are dying in Iraq and they haven't even had the chance to be "old" yet. I'm not saying the war is wrong, I vehemently support it, I'm just illustrating that life is life and suffering is a part of it.

I understand that life is not fair.  But most of us are decent people here and would help people.  I dont think we should give it out free.  I would be out of business.  But we should make it more fair.  Health insurance based on risk is not a bad idea.  If you keep in shape and eat well why should you pay the same as the dude with the beer gut and a smoke in his hand?

Quoted: I understand that life is not fair.  But most of us are decent people here and would help people.  I dont think we should give it out free.  I would be out of business.  But we should make it more fair.  Health insurance based on risk is not a bad idea.  If you keep in shape and eat well why should you pay the same as the dude with the beer gut and a smoke in his hand?

Because that is the perogative of the private insurance company. Why should THEY be forced to comply to YOUR agenda simply because you don't like the rates that THEY offer for THEIR services. If you don't like it, don't use it. That's liberty... that's equality... the ability to be free... even if it is in freely struggling.

I dont like spending money on any healthcare.

After working in the Pharm indusrty I see the major money that goes in those plants.

But after a trip to a doctor who I am convinced didnt know what he was doing, just let me die when Im sick.

This is why I have often wondered if perhaps the pharmecuetical companies aren't "holding back" cures for things like AIDS, cancer, and the common cold.  At the very least, I would be willing to bet that they dedicate a lot more time and money to R&D for drugs to "control" these types of deadly illnesses than to actually cure them.  After all, you can make a lot more money by putting out a product that controls your symptoms and must be taken every day for a long period of time (even a lifetime), than by putting out a product you use once and no longer need.  Thoughts?

Quoted: This is why I have often wondered if perhaps the pharmecuetical companies aren't "holding back" cures for things like AIDS, cancer, and the common cold.  At the very least, I would be willing to bet that they dedicate a lot more time and money to R&D for drugs to "control" these types of deadly illnesses than to actually cure them.  After all, you can make a lot more money by putting out a product that controls your symptoms and must be taken every day for a long period of time (even a lifetime), than by putting out a product you use once and no longer need.  Thoughts?

I don't think so... if they had said cures... some FuGLy, Liberal, Butch, Femi-Nazi chemical engineer would go running down the street naked declaring that such and such has certain cures, it would snowball and people would have the cure today

I had a heart attack in June.  Bills, so far are over $75,000 yea, thats SEVENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS!  ER, med flite, one stentin the 99% blockage, 3 days in the Hosp.  I have catastrophic insurance (self payed) which has paid well.  The cardiologist who worked on me, Dr. Mohammed XXX seemed quite competent.  (Well, I DID survive!)  What annoyed me most was that his bill was a grand more than "reasonable and customary".  I am a tightwad and search diligently for the best deal.  In this case I had NO choice, no chance to "shop" no way to know what was coming $ wise.  Odd thing is, neither he nor the hospital has billed me.  Insurance has paid their share but my share has never been billed to me - YET - 4 months later.  His billing above "reasonable and customary" is the only one I will dispute.  I qualify for free care due to income but chose to make payments to the 1st hospital where I went to ER.  Have already paid all the little bills like x-ray.  My drugs are expensive; if I did not order them from Canada I would be screwed as the price would be more than double, mostly because of Plavix, a single source drug.

Did I cause my MI?  Yea, no doubt.  Lot of stress, type II diabetic.  Great fats, decent exercise, OK BP, just darn sugar.  Genes.  My FORMER GP who was "treating" my diabetes was far less than aggressive.  He has a reputation for being lax, I have found.  I thought I had decent control but find it was far less than I believed.  Bad medical advice, lack of an A1C test in almost 5 years and here I am.  Sue?  No way.  I like the guy and know that I failed to demand a better level of care - and see that I got it.  Hell, I'm 54 so got one foot on a bannana peel and one in the grave anyway.  For the next inevitable attack, I think I will save the system $75 k and just off myself cause I SURE AS HELL ain't worth that much!!


I don't know the answer to the medical crisis.  I know there is something horribly wrong when good doctors are driven out of the profession by ridiculous malpractice insurance costs, yet marginal drs can continue to practice.  I feel it is wrong for America to subsidise the drug costs of most of the world while trial lawyers get fat.  Medical costs are out of control and the free market does NOT seem to be working.  Insurance companies are skimming 20 or 30% off the top, group vs individual rates are way out of whack.  My premiums just went up 35% a month ago!!!  Guess I need to give my property and guns away, drop the ins and go on medicaid!  It is damn frustrating.  I wish I KNEW the proper answer even if there is no way to force it to be implemented.

How you OB GYN guys have ANY interest in sex is beyond me!!  Thank you for what you do - and endure!!!!!  For that matter, there is no way I could dig around in shit, deal with pain and death all the time and keep my sanity.  DOn't know how you guys do it, even for $250k a year.

Just paid $130 for an office visit.  Sure hope HIS furnace goes out this winter - and I get the call!