Um, no...  According to His Word.  God is concerned with [b]dis[/b]obedience.

[b]Romans 11:32[/b] - For God has consigned all men to [b]dis[/b]obedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

[b]Consigned: v.[/b]1.To give over to the care of another; entrust.

Restated:  For God has [i]entrusted[/i] all men to [b]dis[/b]obedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

Restated: For God has [i]given to[/i] all men [b]dis[/b]obedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

As for [b]blind[/b] obedience, He has a thing or two to say about that...

[b]Romans 16:19[/b] - For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil;

In other words, get your head out of your obedient hiney and look around once in a while.

TheRedGoat


PS.  If you are going to rely on the Bible to support your argument, at least make sure you quote [b]Him[/b] and [b]His[/b] expectations correctly, Garandman.

You are tilting windmills. I'm not even sure what your point is.

He's NOT concerned about obedience? So, are you saying God doesn't care if men obey Him???? If He's AT ALL concerned with disobedience and wants it to end, He is BY DEFINTION also concerned with obedience, as obedience is the ABSENSE of disobedience.

I don't separate disobedience from obedience - God is concerned PRIMARILY that man NOT disobey Him, and DOES obey him. (2 sides - same coin) Do try to split hairs and separate the two, cuz I'm not.


And your ONE VERSE proves what?? That God wanted to show His mercy to ALL men, so they would be ENABLED to [size=6]obey Him.[/size=6]

yes, God DEFINITELY cares about obedience, both OT and NT..


[i]I Sam 15: 22 - And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.



Rom. 6: 16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom. 6: 17 - But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Eph. 6: 1 - Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

Heb. 5: 9 - And being made perfect, [Christ] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him[/i]

You want me to continue???




You are creating strawmen. Where did I say "blind obedience?" I DID NOT. God wants obedience from the heart.

If you are gonna set up straw men for the sole  purpose of knocking them down, feel free to continue this conversation by yourself. I'm of no use to you, in that case.

That would be at the end of the Yom Kippur war, right? Israel should then, actually get MORE land than what it already has, and the Palestinians should go back to Jordan or Syria or Egypt or Lebanon.

By the way, WE got involved then because the Arabs were being hugely armed by the Soviets during this war that THEY started. Until that Communist Superpower got involved, Israel was more than capable of defending itself against its Arab "neighbors".


See above reason to begin funding Israeli military. That hasn't changed despite the fall of the CCCP.

I can live with that, EXCEPT for the Covenantal reasons I posted earlier (to ETH) that preclude Israel from possessing the land due to Covenant restrictions. Stated another way, the ONLY way they can possess teh land today in their state of outright disobedience to God is to usurp authority from God, and take the land by force outside of God's will.

FWIW, I could care less whether the Arabs have one square mile to live on.



The CCCP has fallen. NO WAY it is still supplying the Arabs arms. If they were, those swine Arabs wouldn't need suicide bombers, would they?? So Israel should ONCE AGAIN be "more than capable of defending itself against its Arab neighbors". RIGHT????

I say we let 'em.

Right now we fear that MoslemMaggots are buying nukes/smallpox from Russia.

Those AKs being pried from the cold dead hands of headless Al Qaeda in Afghanistan weren't made in Afghanistan or Iraq. (is that chinese writing I see?)

CCCP has fallen. Their weapon stockpiles are still around though. So is China.

[b]Where did those shiploads of arms heading for Arafat's forces come from again??????[/b]

You kind of refute your own argument there.  We were giving loads of money to the Israelis in the 60s and 70s.  We actually airlifted weapons to the Israelis in the '67 war.

US aid to Israel is a red herring.  We give $3 billion per year to Israel.  That is a tiny portion of their GDP of $110 billion.  About $300 million of the aid we give the Israeli's goes to pay interest on U.S. Government loans.  Net aid:  $2.7b.  We give $2.4 billion per year to Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and THE PALESTINIANS.  We forgave all the Arab loans after the Gulf war.  So it is not exactly like the Arabs are getting robbed when it comes to robbing the US taxpayer.

To put in perspective the size of U.S. aid to Israel ($3 billion), Saudi oil export revenues are more than SEVENTY BILLION dollars per year.  Saudi oil revenues from the US - paid by US taxpayers - are several times larger than US aid to Israel.  We sell the Saudis AWACs and F-15s too.

Given the relative insignificance of our contribution to Israel, those losers in the Arab world are clearly not in touch with reality when they blame us for their own inability to muster their overwhelming economic and population superiority to deal with their "Jewish problem."  While I also question why we give aid to Israel, I do not think we should change our policy simply to placate people who clearly must have other reasons for hating us.

Arafat has agreed to a cease fire, but Hamas and Islamic Jihaad have just stated again there is no cease fire.

Even Arafat's milita only sometimes follows what he dictates.  

TheRedGoat-

Good luck with Garandman and his religious interpretation.[:X*]

Also, if I may suggest, instead of
[b]Hog hunting:[/b]  call it
[b]Exotic Wild Boar Hunt[/b]

I hafta laugh everytime the argument comes full circle like this, and I get conflicting statements from different people about US aid to Israel. With some people (not you as I recall) I hear BOTH contradicting arguments, depending upon which point they are tyring to make.

So which is it -

(1) Our aid to Israel  is tiny and insignificant, or (2)  without our aid, Israel will cease to exist?

Either our "red herring" money is meaningless to Israel, in which case I say we keep it here in the USA (cuz it means a helluva lot to me), OR the money we provide them is key to their survival as a nation. In which case, according to your figures, less than a 2.5% drop in their GDP would cause a collapse of their economy, and a cessation of their existence (if you beleive what peopel tell us about the crucialness of US support to Israel.)

In which case I say let Darwin's survival of the fittest take over.

Macallan -

Everything you've said about buying nukes from Russia, or AK's from teh Chinese and shiploads of arms from whoever was ALSO true at teh time you said Israel "was more than capable of defending itself against its Arab neighbors".




I think ONCE AGAIN we have come to the end of the usefulness of this thread, so I'll wait for the next thread to hop on the "Israel Express."


g-man out.

I thought I was pretty clear that I was arguing the first point.  The amounts are so small and the Arabs are such pathetic warriors that Israel would continue to function without the aid; in fact it would probably prosper once it does not have to listen to our pusillanimous politicians.  The only reason we give aid to Israel, IMHO, is give the Jewish and radical Christian minorities in this country warm fuzzies that they have done their part to bring about the Messiah (Act I or Act II).  I think Israel would do much better if it refused US government aid and solicited money from its allies here directly.

My point is that we should not cut off aid just because we want the Arabs to love us.  The aid is such a pittance that they must have other reasons for hating us (Hint: because they are losers).  There might be a good reason to cut off aid, but that is not it.

No, the Arabs didn't get well stocked by the Commies until they realized they couldn't defeat Israel alone when they attacked Israel in 1973 - that's when we stepped up also.


Catch ya' next time.

Np here, Chaingun.  I like watching people misquote the Bible.  I also enjoy watching them tell others what God wants, when the Word of God says the opposite.  Never fails to amaze me.

I mean really, a guy says God wants you to be obedient, you show him the actual statement from God that says He entrusts you to be [b]dis[/b]obedient, and that makes you the one that is wrong?  

Anytime one party to an argument resorts to SHOUTING it brings into question their grip on the finer points of debate.

A more appropriate response might have been "Interesting verse.  Here are two others that show an opposite meaning.  Perhaps the Bible can be interpreted in several ways afterall.."

As for the Sig line, I will check into it.  I am right at the wall for character lengths as it is right now.  

I like your suggestions, and I will try to fancy it up a bit later.

FWIW, I have 5 hunts in the pipeline right now.  Will begin scheduling dates next week.  Final details with the landowners to be worked out at a fish fry on Sunday.  

Read the verse, He is entrusting man to be disobedient.


I am not saying anything, I am quoting Him.



"If" He is at all concerned?  From the passage, it is obvious God gave it to Man with the expressed intention for it ([b]dis[/b]obedience) to be used.   Again I ask you, "If"?



Instead of You telling Me the definition, why don't you let Him speak for Himself?  You have already proven you truly don't know what He thinks.



I don't think this argument is about what You think.



Re-read the passage.  I am sure the Lord really appreciates you [b]mis[/b]quoting Him.



Seriously, can you not read?  He clearly stated His reason for entrusting Man with [b]dis[/b]obedience.  Let me tell you His reason, once again "that he may have mercy upon all."

He did not say, "I am entrusting you with [b]dis[/b]obedience so that I can have mercy on you [b]and[/b] you will obey Me."

I really think you should reconsider putting words in the Lord's mouth.



Please do.  I find your lack of Biblical comprehension amusing.  I like watching You speak for Him when He has clearly (and in writing) said the opposite of You.

TheRedGoat

do-dee-do-do do-dee-do-do

GOD: Arthur! Arthur, King of the Britons! Oh, don't grovel! If there's one thing I can't stand, it's people groveling.

ARTHUR: Sorry--

GOD: And don't apologize. Every time I try to talk to someone it's "sorry this" and "forgive me that" and "I'm not worthy". What are you doing now!?

ARTHUR: I'm averting my eyes, oh Lord.

GOD: Well, don't. It's like those miserable Psalms --they're so depressing. Now knock it off!

Now that was not funny, entropy.

The next time you insert some kind of comic relief into a thread I expect, no I DEMAND, you include a warning so that no other read suffers the pain and humiliation of blowing Coca Cola from their nostrils!!



WARNING ***  Swallow your mouthful of soda before reading further. ***


TheRedGoat

A good old pissing contest!

I just think it's pretty funny that the reason g-man is against supporting Israel is because Jews are not Christians!  Unless I'm somehow misunderstanding the whole "covenant" thing...



Oh, and "shit, hell, damn, f*ck or ass / asshole".  

I'm sorry you guys, but I only got around four hours sleep last night cause I had a hearing today that I had to get ready for.

I just walked in the door of my house at 8:00 PM, local time in Plano, and logged onto the Hour of Power religious program on this thread.

I'll have to answer all of this 'replacement' theology, Jews, Passover, stuff, tomorrow!

[size=4]On Good Friday!![/size=4]

BTW, what are you guys doing for Passover?
Spraypainting Synagogues??????????[:D][:D]![:D][:D]![:D][:D]![:D][:D]![:D][:D]![:D][:D]![:D][:D]![:D][:D]

Eric The(That'sJustAJokeFolks!SettleDown!TheLordForgivesMe,SoShouldYou!)Hun[>]:)]

From the [b]'Jewish'[/b] Bible: *[Note: see below]

[b][u]Exodus[/u][/b] Chapter 12

Verse 1. And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying....
 
[size=3]And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; [u]ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance [b]for ever[/b][/u].[/size=3]

Hmmmm, [b]for ever?[/b]

The LORD said to keep it a feast [b]for ever?[/b]

When did Jesus release Christians from this holy ordinance?

Was it one of the ordinances that was 'blotted out' and crucified on the Cross along with Jesus?

I don't think so.

Jesus took the matzoh bread from the Seder plate, and blessed it with this prayer:

[b][i]Barukh Atah Adonai Eloheynu Melekh ha'olam hamotzi lekhem min ha'aretz.[/i][/b] (Blessed are You, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.)

And then broke it and divided it among His disciples.

And afterward Jesus took the third cup of the Passover Meal and blessed it with this prayer:

[b][i]Barukh Atah Adonai Eloheynu Melekh ha'olam borey pri hagafen.[/i][/b](Blesssed are you, O Lord our God, Ruler of the Universe, who created the fruit of the vine.)

This third cup is referred to as the Cup of Redemption by the Jews, it symbolizes the blood of the Paschal lamb that was slain for the Passover.

It is the same cup, by the way, of which Jesus Himself said:

[red][b]"This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."[/b][/red] [b][u]Luke[/u][/b] Chapter 22, Verse 20.

And then what did He say about the whole process?

[red][b]"This do in remembrance of me."[/b][/red]

Pretty simple request from the Son of the Living God, wasn't it? How often do you honor this 'last request'? Shame on you and whoever taught you that His request was optional!

Now, when did Jesus ever command us to stop doing it?

Eric The(Eternal)Hun[>]:)]

*[Note: the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments, was written by Jews]

Hey, buddy, unless Garandman says that God said it then God didn't say it.  I don't care (and he appears also to not care) what the Word of God says.  Unless Garandman says it, it ain't the Word of God.

Go crawl back under your rock, ETH.

TheRedGoat

PS.  Anyone know of a good way to remove my tongue from my cheek?  [:D]

Next time I start a flame war, Garandman is not invited.

(Although, it is sometimes good to hear challenging views contrary to ours...)

Yeah, but his views aren't challenging, everything is just "God said this".  No logic, no reason. After a while hearing him repeat his dogma is noisom.  Its no wonder he finds little wrong with the Palistinians, he thinks just like them except for the name of the person he acts in behalf of...

Guys like him are the reason I AVOID organized religion like the plague, it is SICK to think other peoples misery proves your religious opinion is correct...

Hi ETH!

Sorry to do this but.... I feel you are way off base on how the Lords Supper is still the Passover meal. It isnt.

We are no longer celebrating the passover meal. We are celebrating and remembering the Lords death and the symbology He placed on those elements of the passover. He instituted a NEW ordinance, and did away with the old. After his death, the entire Mosaic law and its burden were removed, since none could live under the law. And when the jews turned their back on Yahweh?, they were dispossessed by their own actions and not Gods.

I wonder who you are talking about as far as optional requests? I did not read someone calling it optional to take the Lords Supper if they were Christian?

And furthermore, why in the world are you even mentioning something called "good friday" ?????
Easter and that day have NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRIST. Sorry if I misunderstood you, I apologize in advance if I did. Just baffled that you would mention it though. That stuff is for the catholics, by the catholics and of the catholics. Never mentioned in my bible.

What are you doing on passover? A dead holy day of jews? Hmmmm.... nothing out of the ordinary. I think you do need some shut-eye Eric, sandmans calling.

Have a good night,

Dram out.

Roger dodger redgoat!

Comic relief is a required in this thread!!!

PS. I wish I was closer to TX, cause I would really like to hunt those hogs.

Hello, Brother Dramborleg!

Yes, indeed, the Passover Meal [u]was[/u] the meal that Jesus ate in the Upper Room with His disciples the night on which He was betrayed.

And this 'Last Supper' was the Granddaddy of all Passover Meals, the likes of which we shall not see this side of the 'Wedding Feast of the Lamb' in the next World.

But, just as the shedding of blood and the painting of that blood on the doorways and lentils of the Israelites homes in Egypt symbolized a union with God and protected the inhabitants of the house from the Angel of Death, so, too, does our being washed in His blood symbolize our union with God and the protection of His divine promise of eternal life.

We, who once stood afar off, and were utterly foreign to the Lord, were made 'His people' and able to become joint heirs with Christ.

There was nothing written in the Old Testament that was not written of the Messiah.

The Passover feast was finally realized and made wholly understandable by the Last Supper.

The bread and wine [u]is[/u] [b]to us[/b] the body and the blood of Our Savior.

He said it, I believe it, and that should settle it.

And every time we take Communion at His table, using the same objects which He used, in the same manner as He did that fateful night, we do show the Lord's death, burial and resurrection until He comes back for us.

Have you ever noticed anything about the [i][b]matzoh[/b][/i] bread that is used in both Jewish Passover and Christian Communion?

[img]http://www.baruchhashem.com/menus/PesachMatzah.jpg[/img]

Leaven in Scripture is usually a symbol of sin; the unleavened Matzoh graphically portrays the pure and sinless Messiah. It is pierced, even as our Lord was pierced by the nails in His hands and feet and the Roman spear in His side. The Matzoh is striped in the baking, reminding us that the Prophet Isaiah said, "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities ... and with His stripes, we are healed." (Isaiah 53:5)

Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which in Hebrew means home or 'birthplace' of the bread.

If one doesn't understand Jewish worship, Jewish theology, and Jewish symbolism from the First Century AD, it is likely that they will miss out on the true and breathtakingly beautiful relationship that Judaism and Christianity share.

We worship a Jewish God, and His Jewish Messiah Son, along with His Jewish Holy Spirit, and our faith is grounded in the inspired writings by Jewish authors in a Jewish Book.

And yet we are not Jews!

Eric The(Blessed)Hun[>]:)]

This is the most [i]outrageous[/i] thing on this whole thread. Forget Israel and the religous prattle.

How exactly is Canada #1? Those are fighting words and I demand a retraction. If not we invade tomorrow. (While we're there we'll root out all the terrorists that are in hiding,  waiting for the next moment to cross the border and strike.)

Edited to add: I've been over to Windsor. It's very lightly defended. A couple of our pizza delivery guys could easily annex that city for us.

shooter69, you'll all die in the winter before you ever take over. And anyway, Canada is protected by a huge ice wall at the border and killer penguins riding polar bears!

Well as I understand it, that's sort of how they work. 99.9% of Israeli men are either Active duty, or Reservist. Kinda like being in the National Guard here in the US, just that you don't need to go to the Armory to draw weapons. Their Military Reservists are kinda like Police Reservists at the same time.