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Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:36:18 PM EDT
[#1]
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An Arab Pinochet? Okay, name him. Who should it have been? If your expert enough to lecture on foreign policy and military strategies I can only guess that you how a person in mind. So tell me who should have been in charge.

We ousted Saddam, good or bad? Don't matter, we did it. We could either say fuck you to Iraq and bounce despite the coming anarchy or we could stick around and try to fix it, Powell's Pottery Barn Theory, "You break it, you own it." That's the approach we took under the understanding if we don't finish what we started, replacing enemy national govt with friendly, we'll just end up having to go back and replicate the invasion, which is terribly expensive, politically costly too.

We wanted a democratically elected parliamentary govt that was devoid of Ba'athist, which means no shitty Sunni Saddam stooges (which means none of his generals are playing Pinochet, they were all Saddam lackies and kissed his ass for decades). We needed someone who the majority of the Iraqi populace would support and unfortunately that meant that someone would need to come from the Dawa Party. I'm sure you have no fucking clue what I'm talking about now but the Dawa was a group of Shi'a politicians who had challenged Saddam early on and most went into exile or were imprisoned and tortured (with many executed). They were loved by the majority ethnic group of Iraq (Shi'a Arabs) but most were Iranian agents too (where most had sought safety after exile). Maliki was one of them and had enough clout with Iran but didn't appear to be a complete stooge for Iran. Bush selected him and gave him the stripes after the previous chooses turned out to be major fucking disasters because the Pinochet we selected turned out to be a fucking joke (Chalabi).

After we invaded the Iraqi govt has no real military because we abolished it. Their police force is incapable of quelling the rising Sunni and Shia insurgency (from incompetence or treachery). Our forces were DESPERATE to hand over complete control to the Iraqi govt so we can get the fuck out of Dodge. But we couldn't, because they weren't ready yet for self governance. So we teamed up American units with Iraqi ones to help them, to show them how to do the job, to help them quell violence and instability. That's the commander's intent. Gain stability for the region, assist the Iraqi military and police, to ensure a smooth transition of power to the Iraqi govt and people. Where the fuck does genocide fit in to this?

And at what point does berating Arabs work, done in a manner that is familiar to American boys in the military who are usually copying their high school football coaches (surely nobody else, even a shift manager at fucking McDonalds wouldn't EVER talk to their employees that way). Never, the answer is always never. Its NEVER okay to speak to Arabs that way, they will murder their own kids out of honor. Hell, that shit doesn't work even with fucking football players and privates. The difference is that an American will only key your car for being an asshole, the Iraqis follow a level of honor bullshit that basically forces them to turn on you violently. By treating them like shit they are morally obligated, according to their culture, to try to kill you. If they don't, they are looked down upon by their own people. They are fucked up people for NOT killing you after you insult their honor.

Now shit like this will likely make you come to terms with not wanting to play with those people then, "fuck 'em." But the answer to that is "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." American geopolitics, especially our policies in the Middle East, means we will have to deal with that shit and our military will have to deploy to those sorts of countries. We have to fight insurgencies and we can't try to recreate a fucked up historical inaccurate template of "Mongol invasion" as our playbook.

Which is why my opinion is that we should ruthless cull the officer corps of every single individual who can't understand the realities of the COIN situation. If they don't get it, we shouldn't try to patiently explain it to people who don't want to learn it. We need to relieve their asses and have them working at McDonalds ASAP, because they simply cannot be allowed to exercise any level of power or responsibility while being as ignorant as they are. That we don't do this, that we relieved incompetents left and right in WWII who didn't get that conflict, who couldn't wrap their minds around modern warfare, but we wont relieve the most senior brass (instead we promote them to Chief of Staff of the Army, like Casey), is why we fuck up COIN wars. We reward failure, we reward incompetence.
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Yeah, there is a real shortage of guys in the ME willing to fuck over their own people and rule in dictatorial fashion in return for unlimited wealth  and power and we don't have to fight insurgencies.  We don't have to fight many of the conflicts we are in. We chose to.

Drug war deployments--optional. Secure borders. No internal war on drugs.
Invading Afghanistan-- optional.  Retaliatory bombing, and mass destruction of their little infrastructure until turn over bin laden.  Or not turn over .
Harboring bin laden just cost you all of your electricity and water system --fuxk you
We aren't hanging around or rebuilding. Punitive bombings every time you run your mouth.


But without existential threat we civilized people won't behave in the barbaric fashion required.

This is just one idiot running his mouth.  I have no military experience and no background in foreign service

Just read a bunch of history and talked to guys who know more than I do
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:37:38 PM EDT
[#2]
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Youre almost there: why didnt we have to fight insurgencies there?
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Because Fuhrer Doenitz and Emperor Hirohito told them "Don't fight back" and the subservient slime obeyed them like they'd done the whole war.

Oh snap! Bet you didn't expect to get that answer! And its the right one too. That's why Werwolf didn't go into effect, because the national leaders of Germany after Hitler and the rest blew their brains out told the German people to go home and stop fighting. Saddam and the Taliban did no such thing, they both actively encouraged an insurgency, actively and passively.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:39:02 PM EDT
[#3]
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I'm not an ally of steinhab, but he did already cover that. Berate one of them, shoot him in the head in front of the others, specific terror for general attitude adjustment. General insults ineffective, burning down one village so the rest obey effective. Pretty clear to me and in line with my knowledge of the cultural history going back to the Assyrians.

Now try doing that with television cameras pointed at you being watched by 300 million soft headed Americans.
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Understood.  The complexity and  fluid nature of warfare has always fascinated me.  Add in the need to consider the "optics" so as to not end up in Leavenworth must be tremendously difficulty balance to strike

Thank you.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:44:43 PM EDT
[#4]
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There was no insurgency in either Germany and Japan so there was no real COIN to counter the insurgency. You getting lesson on COIN from non-COIN wars is the exact reason you are having issues understanding this. Nazi Germany and Japan both did COIN against occupied countries during the war and both did the shit all of you are suggesting, terror, and they all fucking failed miserably because like you they didn't get the "golden rule."

How are you incapable of understanding this? How are you not understanding that you're comparing a nation state total war battle to an insurgency representing .1% of the population? If you wanted to compare the two, what we did to Germany and Japan was more akin to what happened in the first three weeks to Saddam's Iraq. It didn't take us years, it took three fucking weeks to do to Iraq what we did to Germany and Japan, overthrow their national govt and put them in chains.

The problem was the Iraqi people were geared up already to start an insurgency because it was what Saddam had prepared for (he knew he couldn't resist so he planned to disrupt the occupation). The only reason that shit didn't happen with the Nazis with their Werwolf plan was because all the head Nazis that would have carried it out either blew their brains out or ran off to South America or were killed/captured, and the low level SS didn't do shit because they pussed out. The Iraqis and Afghans didn't puss out, they fought the occupation (largely because the loser govt that were ousted fled to neighboring countries and ran the insurgencies from Syria and Pakistan). But our war isn't against the people because non-state actor insurgent groups don't represent the people, especially when all of them, including the ones who fucking hate each other worse than us, represent .1% of the population.

Look at America right fucking now. We are incapable of making a Republic work. We are incapable of making democracy work. We're about to go balls deep in our own insurgency, it actually already started just hasn't gotten huge yet. Before you start talking shit about other cultures being unable to form cohesive and just govt you better take a really hard look at the US and what the fuck is happening here. You better look at how the ONLY thing keeping Europeans from killing one another is a welfare state and nukes. If you refuse to address it, you're either lying or ignorant. Furthermore, the same shit you are saying about Arabs all the Europeans said it about the US when we tried discarding monarchy for Republics. And it looks like maybe they were right, maybe all American need the firm boot of a dictator on their neck to know how to live. Fun part is you and me and everyone else are going to find out what that feels like real soon. Let's see who is talking shit after that starts...
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People get the government they deserve. We have made a republic work pretty well actually. Our current troubles are a result of failing to follow our founding principles rather than an indictment of them. Its surprising you would even suggest otherwise.

You are practically doing backflips to avoid commenting on the root cause of their problem...even to the point of actually saying our experience in the US has been no better than theirs. Are you still in? Would it be dangerous to you to actually discuss the role of islam as it pertains to the insurgency and indeed US national security? If so, I understand, but then what does that tell you?

If that isnt it, and you feel that islam is simply not a factor in either the insurgency or international terrorism then we will just have to agree to disagree, because nothing could be further from the truth.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:54:11 PM EDT
[#5]
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People get the government they deserve. We have made a republic work pretty well actually. Our current troubles are a result of failing to follow our founding principles rather than an indictment of them. Its surprising you would even suggest otherwise.

You are practically doing backflips to avoid commenting on the root cause of their problem...even to the point of actually saying our experience in the US has been no better than theirs. Are you still in? Would it be dangerous to you to actually discuss the role of islam as it pertains to the insurgency and indeed US national security? If so, I understand, but then what does that tell you?

If that isnt it, and you feel that islam is simply not a factor in either the insurgency or international terrorism then we will just have to agree to disagree, because nothing could be further from the truth.
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He's busy typing a 30 page dissertation that won't amount to jack shit

The Sgt in the video is way ahead of steinhab.
He's grasped that those morons were POS before he got there and will be long after he is gone .
Yeah, he broke th e rule of "if it feels good don't say it " so not smart
But in the long run ? Didn't  matter
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:01:53 PM EDT
[#6]
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He's busy typing a 30 page dissertation that won't amount to jack shit

The Sgt in the video is way ahead of steinhab.
He's grasped that those morons were POS before he got there and will be long after he is gone .
Yeah, he broke th e rule of "if it feels good don't say it " so not smart
But in the long run ? Didn't  matter
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So your lesson for COIN is actions never have consequences. And people wonder why I'm a misanthrope.

PS: You still forgot to tell me who the Iraq Pinochet is supposed to be. I'm very interested to read about your inside knowledge of Iraqi culture, history, and politics. Or else its more like asking my mother who she thinks should be quarterback for the Aggies.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:04:38 PM EDT
[#7]
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You think that because you aren't educated about their culture. Humans are humans. If you berate them they react negatively. Especially when they come from a culture that literally specifies that they retaliate against people who insult them. Every day in arfcom we have discussions where we acknowledge that the Muslim and Arab culture is outmoded, based off 7th Cent AD ideals. Right? What do you think we're talking about?  

THEY WILL MURDER THEIR OWN FUCKING KIDS FOR GETTING RAPED JUST TO PRESERVE THEIR FAMILY HONOR

Get it? I pray you do because ignorance is not an excuse for failure.

Take a large group of armed Iraqi Police (already with questionable loyalties to your cause and side) and call them names. You shouldn't need a PhD in Cultural Anthropology or Sociology to understand what is going to happen afterwards. Gather a large group of them together just to call them assholes and cowards then they will remember that shit and then they will act on vengeance. I'm an American and in a time of war if someone on my own side treated me that way I'd be very very happy to see them dead. If I was an Iraqi, I just might work to have that done by my own hand.

That some of you just don't get this, what appears to be such a simple and basic "golden rule" of "treat other people how you would like to be treated", its truly flabbergasting and frustrating. And yet the same people are making fun of other people's intelligence...
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More excuses blaming the Americans.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:06:15 PM EDT
[#8]
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Stupid people act stupidly when they get called stupid. I don't need to take an IQ test to know that if I insult a stupid person and call that stupid person a coward, I made an enemy to life. Especially when they come from cultures that basically guarantees it. They kill their own kids out of honor, what do you think is going to happen when you call them cowards? What did it accomplish? I guarantee it didn't accomplish what that dumb fuck MP NCO thought it would.
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Good god what a hot mess that post is.

They score low on IQ tests because people in the West think they're stupid?

And if you're read my original post, I do not think what they sergeant did will be effective.  In fact, my strong suspicion is that our entire involvement in that area will have no lasting impact.

In a few more years I doubt you'll ever be able to tell that the US was ever there, if in fact you can tell it now.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:09:58 PM EDT
[#9]
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People get the government they deserve. We have made a republic work pretty well actually. Our current troubles are a result of failing to follow our founding principles rather than an indictment of them. Its surprising you would even suggest otherwise.

You are practically doing backflips to avoid commenting on the root cause of their problem...even to the point of actually saying our experience in the US has been no better than theirs. Are you still in? Would it be dangerous to you to actually discuss the role of islam as it pertains to the insurgency and indeed US national security? If so, I understand, but then what does that tell you?

If that isnt it, and you feel that islam is simply not a factor in either the insurgency or international terrorism then we will just have to agree to disagree, because nothing could be further from the truth.
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I disagree. All Americans deserve a jackboot wedged firmly against their necks because that's all they're good for. They are incapable of self rule and the idea that such an uneducated mass of uncouth colonists can ever govern themselves is laughable. And in the end they'll get that boot on their neck and then finally America will see proper governance.

See how that works? I just dehumanized all Americans by repeating what all monarchists have said about American from the dawn of our little experiment until now. And you can take it and accept it or you can rally back with a reply that will prove my original point about why all people should be treated with dignity and respect. Something about unalienable rights, blah blah blah. Dumb fuck slave owning colonist read too much Rousseau and Hobbes when they should have been bowing and scraping to the Crown!

I'm not saying you aren't entitled to an opinion but if I was benevolent tyrant king of the USA I would force arfcom to apply an asterisk disclaimer to your posts that read "Disregard, this advice is tainted by ignorance and will lend itself to total failure"  
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:14:48 PM EDT
[#10]
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More excuses blaming the Americans.
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You think that because you aren't educated about their culture. Humans are humans. If you berate them they react negatively. Especially when they come from a culture that literally specifies that they retaliate against people who insult them. Every day in arfcom we have discussions where we acknowledge that the Muslim and Arab culture is outmoded, based off 7th Cent AD ideals. Right? What do you think we're talking about?  

THEY WILL MURDER THEIR OWN FUCKING KIDS FOR GETTING RAPED JUST TO PRESERVE THEIR FAMILY HONOR

Get it? I pray you do because ignorance is not an excuse for failure.

Take a large group of armed Iraqi Police (already with questionable loyalties to your cause and side) and call them names. You shouldn't need a PhD in Cultural Anthropology or Sociology to understand what is going to happen afterwards. Gather a large group of them together just to call them assholes and cowards then they will remember that shit and then they will act on vengeance. I'm an American and in a time of war if someone on my own side treated me that way I'd be very very happy to see them dead. If I was an Iraqi, I just might work to have that done by my own hand.

That some of you just don't get this, what appears to be such a simple and basic "golden rule" of "treat other people how you would like to be treated", its truly flabbergasting and frustrating. And yet the same people are making fun of other people's intelligence...
More excuses blaming the Americans.
You're a promoter of socialism and Che so you'll probably like this book if you read it: The Ugly American

Careful though, there are brown people in it.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:17:53 PM EDT
[#11]
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Good god what a hot mess that post is.

They score low on IQ tests because people in the West think they're stupid?

And if you're read my original post, I do not think what they sergeant did will be effective.  In fact, my strong suspicion is that our entire involvement in that area will have no lasting impact.
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Good god what a hot mess that post is.

They score low on IQ tests because people in the West think they're stupid?

And if you're read my original post, I do not think what they sergeant did will be effective.  In fact, my strong suspicion is that our entire involvement in that area will have no lasting impact.
I don't give a fuck about IQ tests. I asked you if dumb people have a tendency of doing dumb shit over perceived insults. Do they?

In a few more years I doubt you'll ever be able to tell that the US was ever there, if in fact you can tell it now
You know we have a couple BCTs worth of troops in Iraq right now?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:25:41 PM EDT
[#12]
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I don't give a fuck about IQ tests. I asked you if dumb people have a tendency of doing dumb shit over perceived insults. Do they?

You know we have a couple BCTs worth of troops in Iraq right now?
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Good god what a hot mess that post is.

They score low on IQ tests because people in the West think they're stupid?

And if you're read my original post, I do not think what they sergeant did will be effective.  In fact, my strong suspicion is that our entire involvement in that area will have no lasting impact.
I don't give a fuck about IQ tests. I asked you if dumb people have a tendency of doing dumb shit over perceived insults. Do they?

In a few more years I doubt you'll ever be able to tell that the US was ever there, if in fact you can tell it now
You know we have a couple BCTs worth of troops in Iraq right now?
You may not care about IQ tests, but if you're trying to transform a country IQ tests certainly care about you.  

Certainly dumb people have a tendency of doing stupid things when they think they have been insulted.  Are you laboring under the misconception that I support the sergeant's insulting tactics?

With respect to your comment about out current troops on the ground, you do understand I'm speaking about having a lasting impact on that country's culture, not mere physical footprint.  At some point the last troops will board a plane and be gone.  Will there be any lasting impact on Iraqi culture for their having been there a decade or two?  I very much doubt it.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:28:29 PM EDT
[#13]
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I disagree. All Americans deserve a jackboot wedged firmly against their necks because that's all they're good for. They are incapable of self rule and the idea that such an uneducated mass of uncouth colonists can ever govern themselves is laughable. And in the end they'll get that boot on their neck and then finally America will see proper governance.

See how that works? I just dehumanized all Americans by repeating what all monarchists have said about American from the dawn of our little experiment until now. And you can take it and accept it or you can rally back with a reply that will prove my original point about why all people should be treated with dignity and respect. Something about unalienable rights, blah blah blah. Dumb fuck slave owning colonist read too much Rousseau and Hobbes when they should have been bowing and scraping to the Crown!

I'm not saying you aren't entitled to an opinion but if I was benevolent tyrant king of the USA I would force arfcom to apply an asterisk disclaimer to your posts that read "Disregard, this advice is tainted by ignorance and will lend itself to total failure"  
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The difference is both England and the United States are based off a white Christian culture with a legal system based off of English law.

You can't bring yourself to admit Islam is the problem.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:33:23 PM EDT
[#14]
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With respect to your comment about out current troops on the ground, you do understand I'm speaking about having a lasting impact on that country's culture, not mere physical footprint.  At some point the last troops will board a plane and be gone.  Will there be any lasting impact on Iraqi culture for their having been there a decade or two?  I very much doubt it.
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I am quite certain that we will have as much permanent effect on that area as the Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian, Achaeminid, Seleucid, and other Empires did.  Meaning little to none.  No matter how many cellphones, cheeseburgers, or blue jeans we give them, they won't change in any meaningful way.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:36:54 PM EDT
[#15]
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You may not care about IQ tests, but if you're trying to transform a country IQ tests certainly care about you.  

Certainly dumb people have a tendency of doing stupid things when they think they have been insulted.  Are you laboring under the misconception that I support the sergeant's insulting tactics?
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You may not care about IQ tests, but if you're trying to transform a country IQ tests certainly care about you.  

Certainly dumb people have a tendency of doing stupid things when they think they have been insulted.  Are you laboring under the misconception that I support the sergeant's insulting tactics?
Why are you dodging the question? Just answer it!

Do dumb fucks act like dumb fucks when they get pissed at perceived insults?

You wont answer it because the answer is a resounding YES. And that hurts your argument because you're blaming an entire continent or race or peoples or something over a single MP Sgt who was too much of a dumbfuck himself for not realizing that you don't do that sort of shit unless you want them to kill you. Only idiots believe actions have no consequences. If I said that sort of shit to the staff of my company half the fuckers would quit and the other half would hate me and actively try to get me fired. In Iraq they don't quit or get me fired, they try to kill me with IEDs. The other veterans of Iraq get this shit, you don't try to make more enemies then you have to. Its so simple, I don't treat an American like that, I wouldn't talk to my fucking dog like that, why the fuck would I talk to Iraqis who are supposed to be my allies? This isn't some existential question with answers of becoming isolationist etc. Its a military necessity not to destroy the alliance with the very people who know where you sleep (down to the 10 digit grid), who knows what routes you take, who knows the weaknesses of your vehicles. You don't try to turn those people into enemies because actions have consequences.

With respect to your comment about out current troops on the ground, you do understand I'm speaking about having a lasting impact on that country's culture, not mere physical footprint.  At some point the last troops will board a plane and be gone.  Will there be any lasting impact on Iraqi culture for their having been there a decade or two?  I very much doubt it.
The Iraqi PM (we selected) is running the Iraqi Parliament (we created) who are running the Iraq Army (we stood up) who are using equipment we sold to them, while being actively supported by US Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors, and Marines in country. So you tell me, did they forget about us yet or were you possibly talking out your ass?  You can doubt it all you want but until you can prove otherwise we're going to have a lasting effect on the Middle East because EVERYTHING happening over there does so because of us.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:39:27 PM EDT
[#16]
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The difference is both England and the United States are based off a white Christian culture with a legal system based off of English law.

You can't bring yourself to admit Islam is the problem.
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White Christian culture...Dude, let me the first to tell you today that whatever you are, you are not the superior race.  
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:55:30 PM EDT
[#17]
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I didn't read his book but I've followed his story. He gets it like few others have. If more "got it" then the wars would already be over.

The ONLY American officers who should be allowed to hold any commands at all that allow them to deal with the local populace should be those trying to replicate Lawrence of Arabia. If they are unwilling or unable, they need to be relieved ASAP and replaced by those who will, regardless of what happens to their career from a negative OER following their relief for cause. If they despise the populace and openly recommend genocide as the COIN TTP, they should be released from military service with an administrative discharge because they are too dangerous to be allowed even a loaded firearm. That's my opinion anyway...
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Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures,  especially the Germanic ones.

Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day,  we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife.

Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home.

Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die.

And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it
What's your take on Jim Gant's work with Iraqi IP and his later work in Afghanistan?
I didn't read his book but I've followed his story. He gets it like few others have. If more "got it" then the wars would already be over.

The ONLY American officers who should be allowed to hold any commands at all that allow them to deal with the local populace should be those trying to replicate Lawrence of Arabia. If they are unwilling or unable, they need to be relieved ASAP and replaced by those who will, regardless of what happens to their career from a negative OER following their relief for cause. If they despise the populace and openly recommend genocide as the COIN TTP, they should be released from military service with an administrative discharge because they are too dangerous to be allowed even a loaded firearm. That's my opinion anyway...
A friend trained under him and spoke very highly of him when all that went down became public. I've read his wife's book and some of "one tribe at a time". First a foremost the dude was committed. Some of the criticism of his plan from a former Ranger was that it depended on being carried out by genius's. That struck me as odd, in my mind it's not that about being a genius but more about being able to see the angles and problem solve in the given environment for the given environment. Gant pushed being one with the locals as a way to build trust, it's hammered on constantly in the book. He also pointed out units the preceded his or followed his that kept their distance from the locals. The mindset and balls needed to trust Pashtuns in the tribal lands of Afghanistan is just incredible. There is a video out there of Gant addressing his me during the green on blue killings after some Korans were burned. It's an interesting watch.

That's my take away anyway, for whatever it's worth.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:00:43 PM EDT
[#18]
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So your lesson for COIN is actions never have consequences. And people wonder why I'm a misanthrope.

PS: You still forgot to tell me who the Iraq Pinochet is supposed to be. I'm very interested to read about your inside knowledge of Iraqi culture, history, and politics. Or else its more like asking my mother who she thinks should be quarterback for the Aggies.
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I know a guy who runs a quicki mart.
He would do it
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:07:42 PM EDT
[#19]
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White Christian culture...Dude, let me the first to tell you today that whatever you are, you are not the superior race.  
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It isn't race. Any culture f that embraces those western values will prosper.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:10:37 PM EDT
[#20]
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Yeah, there is a real shortage of guys in the ME willing to fuck over their own people and rule in dictatorial fashion in return for unlimited wealth  and power and we don't have to fight insurgencies.  We don't have to fight many of the conflicts we are in. We chose to.

Drug war deployments--optional. Secure borders. No internal war on drugs.
Invading Afghanistan-- optional.  Retaliatory bombing, and mass destruction of their little infrastructure until turn over bin laden.  Or not turn over .
Harboring bin laden just cost you all of your electricity and water system --fuxk you
We aren't hanging around or rebuilding. Punitive bombings every time you run your mouth.


But without existential threat we civilized people won't behave in the barbaric fashion required.

This is just one idiot running his mouth.  I have no military experience and no background in foreign service

Just read a bunch of history and talked to guys who know more than I do
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Mass destruction of the Afghan infrastructure? Lol.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:33:33 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
Mass destruction of the Afghan infrastructure? Lol.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


Yeah, there is a real shortage of guys in the ME willing to fuck over their own people and rule in dictatorial fashion in return for unlimited wealth  and power and we don't have to fight insurgencies.  We don't have to fight many of the conflicts we are in. We chose to.

Drug war deployments--optional. Secure borders. No internal war on drugs.
Invading Afghanistan-- optional.  Retaliatory bombing, and mass destruction of their little infrastructure until turn over bin laden.  Or not turn over .
Harboring bin laden just cost you all of your electricity and water system --fuxk you
We aren't hanging around or rebuilding. Punitive bombings every time you run your mouth.


But without existential threat we civilized people won't behave in the barbaric fashion required.

This is just one idiot running his mouth.  I have no military experience and no background in foreign service

Just read a bunch of history and talked to guys who know more than I do
Mass destruction of the Afghan infrastructure? Lol.
I did say "little"
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:44:56 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
I did say "little"
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


Yeah, there is a real shortage of guys in the ME willing to fuck over their own people and rule in dictatorial fashion in return for unlimited wealth  and power and we don't have to fight insurgencies.  We don't have to fight many of the conflicts we are in. We chose to.

Drug war deployments--optional. Secure borders. No internal war on drugs.
Invading Afghanistan-- optional.  Retaliatory bombing, and mass destruction of their little infrastructure until turn over bin laden.  Or not turn over .
Harboring bin laden just cost you all of your electricity and water system --fuxk you
We aren't hanging around or rebuilding. Punitive bombings every time you run your mouth.


But without existential threat we civilized people won't behave in the barbaric fashion required.

This is just one idiot running his mouth.  I have no military experience and no background in foreign service

Just read a bunch of history and talked to guys who know more than I do
Mass destruction of the Afghan infrastructure? Lol.
I did say "little"
In the Pashtun areas where the Taliban drew their strength and Osama bin Laden had his camps, the electrical infrastructure consists of solar panels hooked to truck batteries, or for the really affluent, a generator. The water infrastructure is hand pumps and hand dug irrigation ditches. Strategic bombing didn't bring the Germans to their knees in WWII and you think it's going to be effective on people who already live in the stone age?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:51:36 PM EDT
[#23]
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In the Pashtun areas where the Taliban drew their strength and Osama bin Laden had his camps, the electrical infrastructure consists of solar panels hooked to truck batteries, or for the really affluent, a generator. The water infrastructure is hand pumps and hand dug irrigation ditches. Strategic bombing didn't bring the Germans to their knees in WWII and you think it's going to be effective on people who already live in the stone age?
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I'm no von  Clausewitz

But at least the urban centers would have been reduced to par with rural areas.
That would have had some pressure on taliban gov to hand over UBL
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 4:19:42 PM EDT
[#24]
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Why are you dodging the question? Just answer it!

Do dumb fucks act like dumb fucks when they get pissed at perceived insults?

You wont answer it because the answer is a resounding YES. And that hurts your argument because you're blaming an entire continent or race or peoples or something over a single MP Sgt who was too much of a dumbfuck himself for not realizing that you don't do that sort of shit unless you want them to kill you. Only idiots believe actions have no consequences. If I said that sort of shit to the staff of my company half the fuckers would quit and the other half would hate me and actively try to get me fired. In Iraq they don't quit or get me fired, they try to kill me with IEDs. The other veterans of Iraq get this shit, you don't try to make more enemies then you have to. Its so simple, I don't treat an American like that, I wouldn't talk to my fucking dog like that, why the fuck would I talk to Iraqis who are supposed to be my allies? This isn't some existential question with answers of becoming isolationist etc. Its a military necessity not to destroy the alliance with the very people who know where you sleep (down to the 10 digit grid), who knows what routes you take, who knows the weaknesses of your vehicles. You don't try to turn those people into enemies because actions have consequences.



The Iraqi PM (we selected) is running the Iraqi Parliament (we created) who are running the Iraq Army (we stood up) who are using equipment we sold to them, while being actively supported by US Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors, and Marines in country. So you tell me, did they forget about us yet or were you possibly talking out your ass?  You can doubt it all you want but until you can prove otherwise we're going to have a lasting effect on the Middle East because EVERYTHING happening over there does so because of us.
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What are you, stupid or something?  It was the second sentence of my response.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 4:25:44 PM EDT
[#25]
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It isn't race. Any culture f that embraces those western values will prosper.
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You mean the same tenets of American political ideology, like "All Men are Created Equally," that you think doesn't apply to others because they're mostly over there and not here?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 4:27:27 PM EDT
[#26]
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What are you, stupid or something?  It was the second sentence of my response.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


Why are you dodging the question? Just answer it!

Do dumb fucks act like dumb fucks when they get pissed at perceived insults?

You wont answer it because the answer is a resounding YES. And that hurts your argument because you're blaming an entire continent or race or peoples or something over a single MP Sgt who was too much of a dumbfuck himself for not realizing that you don't do that sort of shit unless you want them to kill you. Only idiots believe actions have no consequences. If I said that sort of shit to the staff of my company half the fuckers would quit and the other half would hate me and actively try to get me fired. In Iraq they don't quit or get me fired, they try to kill me with IEDs. The other veterans of Iraq get this shit, you don't try to make more enemies then you have to. Its so simple, I don't treat an American like that, I wouldn't talk to my fucking dog like that, why the fuck would I talk to Iraqis who are supposed to be my allies? This isn't some existential question with answers of becoming isolationist etc. Its a military necessity not to destroy the alliance with the very people who know where you sleep (down to the 10 digit grid), who knows what routes you take, who knows the weaknesses of your vehicles. You don't try to turn those people into enemies because actions have consequences.



The Iraqi PM (we selected) is running the Iraqi Parliament (we created) who are running the Iraq Army (we stood up) who are using equipment we sold to them, while being actively supported by US Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors, and Marines in country. So you tell me, did they forget about us yet or were you possibly talking out your ass?  You can doubt it all you want but until you can prove otherwise we're going to have a lasting effect on the Middle East because EVERYTHING happening over there does so because of us.
What are you, stupid or something?  It was the second sentence of my response.
I've been drinking...

But you've insulted me. Now you are my mortal enemy. Oh wait, that is only true if we were in Iraq.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 4:33:48 PM EDT
[#27]
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You mean the same tenets of American political ideology, like "All Men are Created Equally," that you think doesn't apply to others because they're mostly over there and not here?
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I care as much about foreigners as they care about me
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 4:35:09 PM EDT
[#28]
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I've been drinking...

But you've insulted me. Now you are my mortal enemy. Oh wait, that is only true if we were in Iraq.
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Maybe you should sober up.  What position exactly are you taking?  All cultures are equal and therefore Iraq's culture isn't really implicated in it's current state?  Of course, nobody really believes that.  

Western culture is not superior as measured by the practical outcomes of that culture?  Also nobody really believes in that since the low low cost of Somali real estate isn't attracting immigrants.

Culture matters.  Of all the places to live on the planet, more people would like to live under Western culture, as gauged by how they vote with their feet.  Even those that decry Western culture would rather live here, as evidenced by how *they* vote (or rather don't vote) with their feet.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 4:43:33 PM EDT
[#29]
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I disagree. All Americans deserve a jackboot wedged firmly against their necks because that's all they're good for. They are incapable of self rule and the idea that such an uneducated mass of uncouth colonists can ever govern themselves is laughable. And in the end they'll get that boot on their neck and then finally America will see proper governance.

See how that works? I just dehumanized all Americans by repeating what all monarchists have said about American from the dawn of our little experiment until now. And you can take it and accept it or you can rally back with a reply that will prove my original point about why all people should be treated with dignity and respect. Something about unalienable rights, blah blah blah. Dumb fuck slave owning colonist read too much Rousseau and Hobbes when they should have been bowing and scraping to the Crown!

I'm not saying you aren't entitled to an opinion but if I was benevolent tyrant king of the USA I would force arfcom to apply an asterisk disclaimer to your posts that read "Disregard, this advice is tainted by ignorance and will lend itself to total failure"  
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It has nothing to do with dehumanizing. It has everything to do with the fact that successful constitutional republics require certain preconditions. Islamic culture is antithetical to those preconditions, in fact they are mutually exclusive. The fact that you still refuse to comment on that, or even acknowledge it, is telling.

Again, you are trying to refute a point Im not making. You seem to imply that I think browbeating them like the sergeant is going to work. It wont, but I understand his frustration. Your attempts to win their hearts and minds, while admirable, are not going to make a dent. It has nothing to do with what we say, and everything to do with what is the driving force of their entire ethos.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 5:00:14 PM EDT
[#30]
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Maybe you should sober up.  What position exactly are you taking?  All cultures are equal and therefore Iraq's culture isn't really implicated in it's current state?  Of course, nobody really believes that.  

Western culture is not superior as measured by the practical outcomes of that culture?  Also nobody really believes in that since the low low cost of Somali real estate isn't attracting immigrants.

Culture matters.  Of all the places to live on the planet, more people would like to live under Western culture, as gauged by how they vote with their feet.  Even those that decry Western culture would rather live here, as evidenced by how *they* vote (or rather don't vote) with their feet.
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My position is if you treat anybody like shit they will reciprocate in kind. And if you base an entire military strategy off it because you have superiority issues then you're doomed for failure. And if it was just your life on the line I wouldn't give two shits, but since the fate of my own life (as a Soldier deployed to Iraq) and as an American I have to deal with fucked up decisions then I have zero tolerance for the people who through their actions are consistently trying to get me killed. I don't give a fuck if you think they are stupid or if they need a boot on their neck, you don't treat people like that especially with their culture.

That MP NCO giving his stupid speech was like if Hillary walked out in Half Time at the Superbowl and took a shit on the American flag. Its literally that fucking stupid, the wrong thing in the wrong audience. While a Leftist watching it might approve and tell us "I don't get why the Right is so angry about this, its just a piece of cloth representing an oppressive nation" the reality is that if they weren't dumb fucks they'd know not to do shit like that. But alas, dumbfucks make up >50% of the population, to include Western Culture.

What culture gave us Marxism and Socialism? Eastern? Northern? Southern?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 5:00:44 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:


Maybe you should sober up.  What position exactly are you taking?  All cultures are equal and therefore Iraq's culture isn't really implicated in it's current state?  Of course, nobody really believes that.  

Western culture is not superior as measured by the practical outcomes of that culture?  Also nobody really believes in that since the low low cost of Somali real estate isn't attracting immigrants.

Culture matters.  Of all the places to live on the planet, more people would like to live under Western culture, as gauged by how they vote with their feet.  Even those that decry Western culture would rather live here, as evidenced by how *they* vote (or rather don't vote) with their feet.
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I think he has bought into the politically correct idea that all cultures are equal. All men may be created equal, but after that our beliefs and ethos lead to choices that define a culture. Some cultures are self destructive, others are prosperous and dont resort to terrorism.

It is also telling that he assumed that racism is behind these rather obvious common sense observations. He cannot even comment, nor can our generals, on the number one defining characteristic of middle east culture, despite the obvious and tremendous impact it has on our efforts there. It is time to come to grips with the concept that the kind of government we envision for them does not have the proper preconditions for success, and it has nothing to do with dna and everything to do with Islam. Trying to impose our system on them is not going to work without similar preconditions.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 5:18:22 PM EDT
[#32]
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It has nothing to do with dehumanizing. It has everything to do with the fact that successful constitutional republics require certain preconditions. Islamic culture is antithetical to those preconditions, in fact they are mutually exclusive. The fact that you still refuse to comment on that, or even acknowledge it, is telling.

Again, you are trying to refute a point Im not making. You seem to imply that I think browbeating them like the sergeant is going to work. It wont, but I understand his frustration. Your attempts to win their hearts and minds, while admirable, are not going to make a dent. It has nothing to do with what we say, and everything to do with what is the driving force of their entire ethos.
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WE FUCKING DID WIN THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS

Did you not read the news from 2006-2009? We fucking won Iraq. I'm so sick and tired of ignorant people who know fuck all about the Iraq war alluding that we lost. We did exactly all the shit I'm saying, we started focusing on the culture, we talked to the sheikhs, we had meals with them and didn't use our left hands, we showed them we were committed to their lives, we worked openly and honestly with the populace (even if that meant killing them), and most of all we ignored everyone like you and your recommendations. And we won. WE FUCKING WON. Remember this part the next time you bring up your revisionist bullshit. We motherfucking won that shit, we had the victory wrapped up in a pretty yellow ribbon and handed it right over to Obama. All this bullshit about the US losing the war because Arabs cant govern themselves was total fucking bullshit and we proved it after the Surge/Awakening worked exactly as they said it would. We put the COIN experts in charge and gave them near free reign and they scored a victory of epic fucking proportions proving forever that you're full of shit. We got the Shia and the Sunni to reconcile all the way up until Obama told Maliki "Good luck with your country, peace out, Deuces!" and removed US support to Iraq while declaring victory for his 2012 reelection campaign. Bush used to have hours long conversations with Maliki multiple times a week, he had his finger on the pulse of Iraqi politics and he steered shit how it would go and work. Obama did none of that, he gave up completely on Iraq and left them completely to their own devices at the worst possible time. And the results we see now are not the result of fucking around militarily but because of an incompetent president that Western Culture created in every possible way.

I was there in 2007-2008 when the US was filling up body bag every day, ours, theirs, everyones. It was a goddamn nightmare of IEDs, snipers, mortar and rocket attacks that went from hot to cold in two months mid deployment. July August 07 was a turkey shoot, by October almost nobody fired their weapons anymore. And then I came back a year later in 2009-2010 I was in the middle of the Sunni fucking triangle it was less violent than Detroit on a weekday. That deployment was a fucking joke because nothing happened.

And you want to know what is really fucked up? Its actually funny in sad sort of cynical way. Why did the Sunni turn toward ISIS as their saviors? Because when Obama stopped talking to Maliki he decided he was free to listen to Iran and he turned up the hate on the Sunni of Iraq. And when entire cities of Iraqis peacefully protested Maliki sent in the nearly entirely Shi'a Iraqi Army and started mass arrests of all MAMs. Remember all those prison breaks that ISIS was doing? No, you have no fucking clue what I'm talking about but ISIS gained notoriety by staging large prison escapes from the massive detention facilities housing tens of thousands of political prisoners. Even the "Assault on Mosul" was nothing more than a large raid for Mosul's prison that was so quick and terrorizing that it caused the Iraqi Army to panic and rout without even a major battle happening. The Shia govt did EXACTLY what some of you are recommending, they used terror to quell an uprising just like the 'tards recommended and it blew up in their fucking faces, just like it did for nearly everyone else in the 20th century who went that route. And suddenly to the Sunnis, representing 25% of 35 million people, looked at ISIS and said "Its better to be with them than with the Iraqi govt." So they sided with the worst of the worst because even ISIS was better than the Iraqi govt.

So congrats, you are as smart as an Iraqi politician when it comes to warfare.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 5:18:46 PM EDT
[#33]
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My position is if you treat anybody like shit they will reciprocate in kind. And if you base an entire military strategy off it because you have superiority issues then you're doomed for failure. And if it was just your life on the line I wouldn't give two shits, but since the fate of my own life (as a Soldier deployed to Iraq) and as an American I have to deal with fucked up decisions then I have zero tolerance for the people who through their actions are consistently trying to get me killed. I don't give a fuck if you think they are stupid or if they need a boot on their neck, you don't treat people like that especially with their culture.

That MP NCO giving his stupid speech was like if Hillary walked out in Half Time at the Superbowl and took a shit on the American flag. Its literally that fucking stupid, the wrong thing in the wrong audience. While a Leftist watching it might approve and tell us "I don't get why the Right is so angry about this, its just a piece of cloth representing an oppressive nation" the reality is that if they weren't dumb fucks they'd know not to do shit like that. But alas, dumbfucks make up >50% of the population, to include Western Culture.

What culture gave us Marxism and Socialism? Eastern? Northern? Southern?
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I don't support that sergeant's rant.  It was counter productive.  That said, I can't think of anything short term that would be productive, and by productive I mean something that would have a durable positive impact on their society.

These cultures have long standing pathological issues that will not be resolved on any short term basis.  Your choices are basically to either utterly subdue the population by force, which would entail killing massive numbers of them, and once it becomes clear what the relative pecking order is of the two cultures are you would see the remaining population slowly adopt the dominate culture, or to become an imperial force somewhat like the English in India and stay for a hundred years or so, take over the education system and bureaucracy and run it in something like a paternalistic fashion and force adoption of Western culture.  

I have no interest in either of these options.  My preferred choice is to leave them alone with the warning that if they ever make substantial trouble for the U.S./the West that we will be back and they will not like the results.

I have no interest in seeing the U.S. kill perhaps a quarter of the Iraqi population (which is probably what it would take) nor do I have an interest in the financial commitment required for the US to become that type of paternalistic imperial power.  So, lets just warn them an leave them alone.

"Treating them like shit" is a non starter for me since I don't want to be there to treat them like shit.  As long as they leave us alone I see no moral case for forcing them to adopt a more Western culture, even though I truly believe that would be in their best interest.

Western culture is by no means perfect, it's just the best game in town at the moment.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 5:29:13 PM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:
I don't support that sergeant's rant.  It was counter productive.  That said, I can't think of anything short term that would be productive, and by productive I mean something that would have a durable positive impact on their society.

These cultures have long standing pathological issues that will not be resolved on any short term basis.  Your choices are basically to either utterly subdue the population by force, which would entail killing massive numbers of them, and once it becomes clear what the relative pecking order is of the two cultures are you would see the remaining population slowly adopt the dominate culture, or to become an imperial force somewhat like the English in India and stay for a hundred years or so, take over the education system and bureaucracy and run it in something like a paternalistic fashion and force adoption of Western culture.  

I have no interest in either of these options.  My preferred choice is to leave them alone with the warning that if they ever make substantial trouble for the U.S./the West that we will be back and they will not like the results.

I have no interest in seeing the U.S. kill perhaps a quarter of the Iraqi population (which is probably what it would take) nor do I have an interest in the financial commitment required for the US to become that type of paternalistic imperial power.  So, lets just warn them an leave them alone.

"Treating them like shit" is a non starter for me since I don't want to be there to treat them like shit.  As long as they leave us alone I see no moral case for forcing them to adopt a more Western culture, even though I truly believe that would be in their best interest.

Western culture is by no means perfect, it's just the best game in town at the moment.
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"My friend Paddy Murphy is drinking a lot lately and his life is going into the toilet. But he's Irish, so can I really stop it? I should probably do nothing, as any attempt to get the bottle away from an Irishmen is fraught with peril. Better to do nothing."

These sorts of philosophical points lead nowhere. Yes, fucking stop, fucking intervene, do whatever you can to fix the situation.

If you're in Iraq and the Iraqi Police you are teamed with are so fucking bad that the commander allows his NCO to give them a "You're all piece of shit coward" motivational speeches then you're fucked. Drastic steps need to be taken but not a single one of them involves collecting the whole group of Arabs and insulting their honor while expecting them later on that very same fucking day to support you in combat operations. That's how you get your own people fucking killed, as in boxed up and buried in fucking Arlington with crying wife and kids because somebody is too fucking stupid to be allowed to make decisions.

As I said again, the answer is moot. Because we fucking won in Iraq. So all this bullshit that modern FM 3-24 COIN doesn't work is complete fucking bullshit because we already proved it does. And since then the pro-terror people have been proven wrong again, because when Maliki pulled that shit he caused a national uprising against the entire Sunni population. And the loss of ISIS only really occurred after the diehard Shia from within the US govt were ousted from power and replaced by Iraqi politicians willing to at the very least offer an olive branch to the Sunni and not "smote them from thy Earth."
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 5:37:16 PM EDT
[#35]
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As I said again, the answer is moot. Because we fucking won in Iraq. So all this bullshit that modern FM 3-24 COIN doesn't work is complete fucking bullshit because we already proved it does. And since then the pro-terror people have been proven wrong again, because when Maliki pulled that shit he caused a national uprising against the entire Sunni population. And the loss of ISIS only really occurred after the diehard Shia from within the US govt were ousted from power and replaced by Iraqi politicians willing to at the very least offer an olive branch to the Sunni and not "smote them from thy Earth."
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If our COIN really works, then when we pull out Iraq would remain a stable, more or less democratic, Western friendly nation.

Does anyone believe that is what will happen?  Do you believe that is what will happen?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 5:49:57 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
If our COIN really works, then when we pull out Iraq would remain a stable, more or less democratic, Western friendly nation.

Does anyone believe that is what will happen?  Do you believe that is what will happen?
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No, COIN works because we've proved it does, we proved it in 2008-2009 when Iraq had less violence than most American inner cities. We proved I'm right and you're wrong. And when Obama took over the only existential truth he proved was that shitty leadership causes fucked up shit to happen. He stopped supervising the rather young and easily influenced Iraqi PM and Parliament and thus a democratic country stopped doing democratic shit. You get this right? Let me make a comparison.  

The Democrats of the USA want more Mexicans to vote while doing their best to undermine the votes of a certain light colored skin "demographic" in order to undermine the democratic process. The Iraqi Shia did the same to the Sunni Arabs. Same fucking thing. The same reason the Iraqi democracy failed is why ours is too failing. Because democracies dont last forever, they are rather inefficient govt types which need a responsible and unified people to work and even then the only real benefit is they are less tyrannical to large groups of the populace. Iraq doesn't fit that bill. Neither does the US in most of its history and most certainly now.

Whoops, sorry, my bad. I went again and done it again. I mentioned how the US is on the brink of civil war while you were trying to use the US as the quintessential archetype of the greatness of the same culture that also produced Socialism. Goddamn it, I'm so bad at this, I keep interrupting you as you go on about western cultural supremacy in the mist of a civil war among westerner culture in the bastion of the free world.

Which culture produced this? East, West, North, South?

Link Posted: 8/20/2017 5:55:16 PM EDT
[#37]
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No, COIN works because we've proved it does, we proved it in 2008-2009 when Iraq had less violence than most American inner cities. We proved I'm right and you're wrong. And when Obama took over the only existential truth he proved was that shitty leadership causes fucked up shit to happen. He stopped supervising the rather young and easily influenced Iraqi PM and Parliament and thus a democratic country stopped doing democratic shit. You get this right? Let me make a comparison.  

The Democrats of the USA want more Mexicans to vote while doing their best to undermine the votes of a certain light colored skin "demographic" in order to undermine the democratic process. The Iraqi Shia did the same to the Sunni Arabs. Same fucking thing. The same reason the Iraqi democracy failed is why ours is too failing. Because democracies dont last forever, they are rather inefficient govt types which need a responsible and unified people to work and even then the only real benefit is they are less tyrannical to large groups of the populace. Iraq doesn't fit that bill. Neither does the US in most of its history and most certainly now.

Whoops, sorry, my bad. I went again and done it again. I mentioned how the US is on the brink of civil war while you were trying to use the US as the quintessential archetype of the greatness of the same culture that also produced Socialism. Goddamn it, I'm so bad at this, I keep interrupting you as you go on about western cultural supremacy in the mist of a civil war among westerner culture in the bastion of the free world.

Which culture produced this? East, West, North, South?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5YRYpdx8PaQ/maxresdefault.jpg
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What percentage of U.S. culture is represented in that picture.  

Like many on the left, you have an inability to have any sense of proportion.

But, you personally believe that Western culture is superior.  I'll prove it to you.  As an American you are vastly wealthy by world standards.  You could chose to live in almost any culture you desire.  Somalia, Iraq, South America, China.  You have the means to live in any of these places.

Yet .... here you are.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 6:05:21 PM EDT
[#38]
That probably didn't help things any.

To this day I still don't understand why we had to get involved in Iraq or what the overall vision was in W's mind. Yes, Saddam was bad. Yes, he did infact have some WMDs. Was it all worth it though? No matter how many lives and national treasure we dump there it will never be a stable productive 'little America' in the ME.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 6:09:16 PM EDT
[#39]
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What percentage of U.S. culture is represented in that picture.  

Like many on the left, you have an inability to have any sense of proportion.

But, you personally believe that Western culture is superior.  I'll prove it to you.  As an American you are vastly wealthy by world standards.  You could chose to live in almost any culture you desire.  Somalia, Iraq, South America, China.  You have the means to live in any of these places.

Yet .... here you are.
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What percentage of US culture? Enough that in numerous posts in the same day arfcom is commenting about impending civil war in American while in another thread you're declaring the vastly apparent western culture while ignoring that it also produced the civil war conditions. Like bragging about your herpes when making fun of the other guy's genital warts, no?  

Like many on the Left? Left on what scale? South Culture's political scale? East Culture? Who created Leftist ideology? Northern Culture? Or was it that rascally Western Culture who created all the drama of the 18th-21th century? Hate to break this to you too, but Right is Monarchist, Left is Liberalism, and everything about old fashioned American politics was Classical Liberalism, a Leftist ideology. We're just right of the Marxist who call themselves Progressives, but we're not really right wing and a real Western European Culture fanatic from the early 20th century would laugh at the US system and declare it was unfit to be compared to proper constitutional monarchies with an empowering House of Lords equivalent running shit. So stick that in your "Western Cultural" pipe and smoke it, our dudes produced the Constitution, Free Market Capitalism, Nazism, Communism, and all the other bullshit. We also created the music industry that produces modern pop music. Iraq didn't create Justin Bieber, we did that shit too.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 6:12:17 PM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:
That probably didn't help things any.

To this day I still don't understand why we had to get involved in Iraq or what the overall vision was in W's mind. Yes, Saddam was bad. Yes, he did infact have some WMDs. Was it all worth it though? No matter how many lives and national treasure we dump there it will never be a stable productive 'little America' in the ME.
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Link Posted: 8/20/2017 6:17:10 PM EDT
[#41]
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Quoted:


What percentage of US culture? Enough that in numerous posts in the same day arfcom is commenting about impending civil war in American while in another thread you're declaring the vastly apparent western culture while ignoring that it also produced the civil war conditions. Like bragging about your herpes when making fun of the other guy's genital warts, no?  

Like many on the Left? Left on what scale? South Culture's political scale? East Culture? Who created Leftist ideology? Northern Culture? Or was it that rascally Western Culture who created all the drama of the 18th-21th century? Hate to break this to you too, but Right is Monarchist, Left is Liberalism, and everything about old fashioned American politics was Classical Liberalism, a Leftist ideology. We're just right of the Marxist who call themselves Progressives, but we're not really right wing and a real Western European Culture fanatic from the early 20th century would laugh at the US system and declare it was unfit to be compared to proper constitutional monarchies with an empowering House of Lords equivalent running shit. So stick that in your "Western Cultural" pipe and smoke it, our dudes produced the Constitution, Free Market Capitalism, Nazism, Communism, and all the other bullshit. We also created the music industry that produces modern pop music. Iraq didn't create Justin Bieber, we did that shit too.
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Of course everything produced by Western culture is not all sunshine and light.  I ask again, what are you ... stupid or something.  No one has alleged that.

But taken in toto, Western culture has produced remarkable successes.  Successes not seen in Middle Eastern culture in a long time, and even those successes were in many cases exaggerations.

And you've skipped over a point repeatedly as though you didn't read it.  You can live anywhere in the world.  But, you live here.

That is the only statement that matters as to what culture *you* personally believe to be superior.

So spare me your bullshit about the evils of the West.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 6:30:03 PM EDT
[#42]
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Quoted:
I ask again, what are you ... stupid or something.  No one has alleged that.
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Quoted:
I ask again, what are you ... stupid or something.  No one has alleged that.
That's the second time you've repeated this personal attack. Is this like your thing? Like if I debate Dan Cooper he is going to keep asking if I'm stupid even though he most certainly knows I'm not? I'm not up to date on your internet persona other than a few threads involving religion or whatever flavor of the month shit post marathon you go on. I guess on your calendar 8/20/2017 this was written "Moronically attempt to reason that the US lost in Iraq, even though they didn't, because Arabs can't get democracy right, while ignoring Westerns can't get it right either."

So spare me your bullshit about the evils of the West.
Likewise spare me your bullshit superiority complex where promote all the positives while ignoring the negatives. THREAD 1: Western culture is the best! THREAD 2: Oh shit, a civil war just started!  

We're just as fucked up as them just in different ways because over half of them are dumb as fuck just like over half of America are dumb fuck too. I'm forced to live with the idiots here and I was forced to secure the idiots over there, there is literally nothing either humans could do or say or anything that will ever surprise me at this point. You all suck and are god awful stupid but unfortunately I share this planet with you.

So in the mean time, can you do me a favor? If you're fighting a COIN war don't call a group of Iraqi Police men cowards to their faces unless the objective is to get them to kill fellow Americans. Can you do that? Wow, gee thanks.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:45:26 PM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:
That's the second time you've repeated this personal attack. Is this like your thing? Like if I debate Dan Cooper he is going to keep asking if I'm stupid even though he most certainly knows I'm not? I'm not up to date on your internet persona other than a few threads involving religion or whatever flavor of the month shit post marathon you go on. I guess on your calendar 8/20/2017 this was written "Moronically attempt to reason that the US lost in Iraq, even though they didn't, because Arabs can't get democracy right, while ignoring Westerns can't get it right either."

Likewise spare me your bullshit superiority complex where promote all the positives while ignoring the negatives. THREAD 1: Western culture is the best! THREAD 2: Oh shit, a civil war just started!  

We're just as fucked up as them just in different ways because over half of them are dumb as fuck just like over half of America are dumb fuck too. I'm forced to live with the idiots here and I was forced to secure the idiots over there, there is literally nothing either humans could do or say or anything that will ever surprise me at this point. You all suck and are god awful stupid but unfortunately I share this planet with you.

So in the mean time, can you do me a favor? If you're fighting a COIN war don't call a group of Iraqi Police men cowards to their faces unless the objective is to get them to kill fellow Americans. Can you do that? Wow, gee thanks.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I ask again, what are you ... stupid or something.  No one has alleged that.
That's the second time you've repeated this personal attack. Is this like your thing? Like if I debate Dan Cooper he is going to keep asking if I'm stupid even though he most certainly knows I'm not? I'm not up to date on your internet persona other than a few threads involving religion or whatever flavor of the month shit post marathon you go on. I guess on your calendar 8/20/2017 this was written "Moronically attempt to reason that the US lost in Iraq, even though they didn't, because Arabs can't get democracy right, while ignoring Westerns can't get it right either."

So spare me your bullshit about the evils of the West.
Likewise spare me your bullshit superiority complex where promote all the positives while ignoring the negatives. THREAD 1: Western culture is the best! THREAD 2: Oh shit, a civil war just started!  

We're just as fucked up as them just in different ways because over half of them are dumb as fuck just like over half of America are dumb fuck too. I'm forced to live with the idiots here and I was forced to secure the idiots over there, there is literally nothing either humans could do or say or anything that will ever surprise me at this point. You all suck and are god awful stupid but unfortunately I share this planet with you.

So in the mean time, can you do me a favor? If you're fighting a COIN war don't call a group of Iraqi Police men cowards to their faces unless the objective is to get them to kill fellow Americans. Can you do that? Wow, gee thanks.
You're forced to live with no one.  You can live almost anywhere on this planet you chose.  Stop trying to elevate yourself by whining about how stupid your countrymen are.  That's a very unbecoming way to feel good about yourself on the cheap.

Let me suggest you find one of these better places to live outside of the west and go there.  I hate to see you so unhappy living under this Western oppression.  Life is too short for that.  


And, as to your last paragraph if you would, find where I've said anything about that sergeant addressing those Iraqi policemen other than saying it was counterproductive.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:02:56 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:


Strategic bombing didn't bring the Germans to their knees in WWII
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Another lie
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:14:08 PM EDT
[#45]
Enjoyed reading all that, thanks steinhab, good to see you're still around. Whatever our differences on literally everything else, always enjoy your viewpoint on COIN in ME and largely agree with it.

I can't contribute much to the ME conversation because I'm not a specialist and just read a few bloggers, and don't want to debate looming American civil war or the relative merits of political systems because that shit takes forever.

One thing I can contribute is the thing with Mongols and massacres, mostly as it pertains to Russian history.

1. The success of the Mongols doesn't have much to do with their brutality, because pretty much all regional actors (and certainly, all other powers in the Great Steppe) were equally brutal.

2. They didn't need to suppress insurgencies because insurgencies weren't a thing at the time, war was done by large armies in pitched battles. Splitting your force into smaller ambushing units was retarded because the enemy army would just crush them in detail.

3. Mongols won against the Russians and other agricultural societies, because most men were busy farming and war was left to the professionals, whereas the Mongols managed to unite the Great Steppe, where every man was a warrior (Mongols brought 30,000 men for invasion of Russia and there were probably only half as many knights in the entire place, split over a couple dozen bickering quasi-kingdoms). Same deal as Saxons crushing the Celts.
Note that this "war is only done by professionals" thing made massacring peasants for no reason even more retarded.

4. That said, Mongols DID often massacre cities as a form of punishment for resistance, however it wasn't terribly unusual by the standards of the day. For example, after a very long and bloody siege of the Russian capital of Kiev, they did pretty much burn the place and massacre the population. However, the Russian commander of the defenders survived and later worked for the Mongols without much issue. As I said, it was a very different time with very different standards.
BTW, we also know that these stories of massacres aren't always exaggerations because quite a few mass graves were dug up. However, the historians aren't always sure if mass graves are due to the Mongols or some other invaders or some internal feudal conflicts, which is all you need to know about the standards of the time.

5. Even if massacres did somewhat help the Mongols quell the resistance of Russian lords short-term (although it probably didn't matter too much since as I said their advantage in numbers and concentration of forces was too great anyway), in the long term, it both decreased their tax revenues from the area, and was probably one of the reasons why Russians all united against them some time later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kulikovo#Forces
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:35:14 PM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:
You're forced to live with no one.  You can live almost anywhere on this planet you chose.  Stop trying to elevate yourself by whining about how stupid your countrymen are.  That's a very unbecoming way to feel good about yourself on the cheap.

Let me suggest you find one of these better places to live outside of the west and go there.  I hate to see you so unhappy living under this Western oppression.  Life is too short for that.  

And, as to your last paragraph if you would, find where I've said anything about that sergeant addressing those Iraqi policemen other than saying it was counterproductive.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I ask again, what are you ... stupid or something.  No one has alleged that.
That's the second time you've repeated this personal attack. Is this like your thing? Like if I debate Dan Cooper he is going to keep asking if I'm stupid even though he most certainly knows I'm not? I'm not up to date on your internet persona other than a few threads involving religion or whatever flavor of the month shit post marathon you go on. I guess on your calendar 8/20/2017 this was written "Moronically attempt to reason that the US lost in Iraq, even though they didn't, because Arabs can't get democracy right, while ignoring Westerns can't get it right either."

So spare me your bullshit about the evils of the West.
Likewise spare me your bullshit superiority complex where promote all the positives while ignoring the negatives. THREAD 1: Western culture is the best! THREAD 2: Oh shit, a civil war just started!  

We're just as fucked up as them just in different ways because over half of them are dumb as fuck just like over half of America are dumb fuck too. I'm forced to live with the idiots here and I was forced to secure the idiots over there, there is literally nothing either humans could do or say or anything that will ever surprise me at this point. You all suck and are god awful stupid but unfortunately I share this planet with you.

So in the mean time, can you do me a favor? If you're fighting a COIN war don't call a group of Iraqi Police men cowards to their faces unless the objective is to get them to kill fellow Americans. Can you do that? Wow, gee thanks.
You're forced to live with no one.  You can live almost anywhere on this planet you chose.  Stop trying to elevate yourself by whining about how stupid your countrymen are.  That's a very unbecoming way to feel good about yourself on the cheap.

Let me suggest you find one of these better places to live outside of the west and go there.  I hate to see you so unhappy living under this Western oppression.  Life is too short for that.  

And, as to your last paragraph if you would, find where I've said anything about that sergeant addressing those Iraqi policemen other than saying it was counterproductive.
Why would I leave? I like the food, my friends and family live here, I speak the language already and understand the customs, I know what side of the road to drive on, I know what the good tv channels are, I know where the good coffee is sold, I just bought a house, my job is here, and it would be too much a pain in the ass to move. And I fought for this country in Iraq (that place you didn't serve) so I think I have a right to stay here, as I have the right to bitch about the stupidity of people who who state me and my bros lost the Iraq war when I know for a fact we won it.

And where will I go? Everywhere will be full of the same dumb fuck mouthbreathing retards that are all about 30 seconds away at any given time from doing or saying or writing something that is somehow exponentially more breathtakingly stupid than the last shit they did, said, or wrote. At least in present day America I still have the right to shitpost about my opinions on Arfcom in a delightfully witty approach that many seem to enjoy. Meanwhile, I get to verbally spare with self righteous posters who don't know history, politics, or military science and this too is a form of entertainment for me in my now very boring life.

Ethno-nationalists are such easy targets, they're as bad as Creationalists, the insults write themselves...
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:40:06 PM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:
Enjoyed reading all that, thanks steinhab, good to see you're still around. Whatever our differences on literally everything else, always enjoy your viewpoint on COIN in ME and largely agree with it.

I can't contribute much to the ME conversation because I'm not a specialist and just read a few bloggers, and don't want to debate looming American civil war or the relative merits of political systems because that shit takes forever.

One thing I can contribute is the thing with Mongols and massacres, mostly as it pertains to Russian history.

1. The success of the Mongols doesn't have much to do with their brutality, because pretty much all regional actors (and certainly, all other powers in the Great Steppe) were equally brutal.

2. They didn't need to suppress insurgencies because insurgencies weren't a thing at the time, war was done by large armies in pitched battles. Splitting your force into smaller ambushing units was retarded because the enemy army would just crush them in detail.

3. Mongols won against the Russians and other agricultural societies, because most men were busy farming and war was left to the professionals, whereas the Mongols managed to unite the Great Steppe, where every man was a warrior (Mongols brought 30,000 men for invasion of Russia and there were probably only half as many knights in the entire place, split over a couple dozen bickering quasi-kingdoms). Same deal as Saxons crushing the Celts.
Note that this "war is only done by professionals" thing made massacring peasants for no reason even more retarded.

4. That said, Mongols DID often massacre cities as a form of punishment for resistance, however it wasn't terribly unusual by the standards of the day. For example, after a very long and bloody siege of the Russian capital of Kiev, they did pretty much burn the place and massacre the population. However, the Russian commander of the defenders survived and later worked for the Mongols without much issue. As I said, it was a very different time with very different standards.
BTW, we also know that these stories of massacres aren't always exaggerations because we a few of such sites were dug up. However, the historians aren't always sure if mass graves are due to the Mongols or some other invaders or some internal feudal conflicts, which is all you need to know about the standards of the time.

5. Even if massacres did somewhat help the Mongols quell the resistance of Russian lords short-term (although it probably didn't matter too much since as I said their advantage in numbers and concentration of forces was too great anyway), in the long term, it both decreased their tax revenues from the area, and was probably one of the reasons why Russians all united against them some time later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kulikovo#Forces
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Since the dawn of cities, the lives of the entire population of a village, town, city under siege was tied to their level of resistance. If they surrendered without a struggle they would often be given favorable terms. If they midly resisted they might face severe terms. If they resisted strongly their lives were forfeit, the attackers could do what they want depending on their wants and desires. Do nothing. Sell them all into slavery. Kill all the men and sell the rest into slavery. Kill EVERYONE. Mongols didn't have a monopoly on any of these choices. The while the Mongols were definitely a cruel people they weren't that much crueler than everyone else, their Khans were just more organized. And while they were cruel they were often a thousand times more fair and less corrupt than their enemies they fought. Which is really why so many went over to them, because it was often better to be ruled by the Khans than by their own leaders once you got over the whole "They're Mongol barbarians" thing.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:53:46 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
I haven't seen this in a few years. Still great.

Verbally layin some hate to IPs
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j

He was a CPT, back then, he is a LTC Infantry BC now.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:58:16 PM EDT
[#49]
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Quoted:
He's dealing with IQ of 80, in bred goat fuckers

It doesn't matter-outcome was predetermined centuries ago
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Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
He's dealing with IQ of 80, in bred goat fuckers

It doesn't matter-outcome was predetermined centuries ago
Not all of them are.  He didn't sway anyone away from the insurgency.  The ones that had respect for him certainly lost at least some.  

That unprofessional rant probably pushed some guys who were on the fence into the insurgent side.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:00:36 PM EDT
[#50]
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Quoted:
Let them fucking starve.
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Some are hopeless, but not all.

There are hopeless people here in the US.  What's your solution for them?
Let them fucking starve.
You know that's not going to happen, so why even suggest it?
Since plan A isn't going to happen, what's your plan B?
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