Quoted: 5.45X39 (very impressive blasted all the kevlar and ceramic out of a 4 inch area but didn't dent the plate) agrred! most folks overlook the penetrating abilities of 5.45 with its' great b.c. The most damaging was an old Mosin Nagant with 7.62X39R steel core that almost penetrated the plate. i'm sure you meant to type "54r"...that stuff is awesome! try it in a pkm...shreds cars like they were made of wood. i have yet to try 5.7 out. a friend gave me some of the hollow point ammunition and it looks interesting.

I was really impressed with the Krink! Anyone making a 5.45 upper for the AR platform? I know that would rub Campy the wrong way, but it would be an awsome option. Frankly I think it's much more effective than the 7.62.

Have there been any documented shootings with this round yet?

Quoted: Have there been any documented shootings with this round yet?

Yes, there have been. It kills people.

Quoted: The original post was, "how can I avoid buying one". Lots of critics chimed in about how it's like a .22 and so on.  That's the same thing people say about the .223, but yet we trust our troops and our nation's security with it. Anyway, most of those critics are still unable to keep from admitting that if they had the cash, they would add this pistol to their collection.  I agree with that assessment and I did add it to my collection.  So even if some people don't take my comments "seriously", the fact remains that this is a quality lightweight ergonomic accurate handgun that is a pleasure to shoot with a 20 round capacity that goes through body armor at over 2100 feet per second. Should it be your only gun, that's up to you.  I have several others, but would not feel unsafe with this weapon. When I get some time, I am going see if I can't shoot a pig with this thing - I will let you know what the wounds look like.

I dont like .223 either.  I especially dont like a round that is slower than .223, doesnt fragment, is dependant on volume of fire to be effect and is expensive on a per round basis.


How much sense does it make to use a platform that requires multiple hits at $0.35-$0.75 a pop?  I mean even my .50bmg is a 1 hit worker.  

Quoted: Quoted: 5.45X39 (very impressive blasted all the kevlar and ceramic out of a 4 inch area but didn't dent the plate) agrred! most folks overlook the penetrating abilities of 5.45 with its' great b.c. The most damaging was an old Mosin Nagant with 7.62X39R steel core that almost penetrated the plate. i'm sure you meant to type "54r"...that stuff is awesome! try it in a pkm...shreds cars like they were made of wood. i have yet to try 5.7 out. a friend gave me some of the hollow point ammunition and it looks interesting. I was really impressed with the Krink! Anyone making a 5.45 upper for the AR platform? I know that would rub Campy the wrong way, but it would be an awsome option. Frankly I think it's much more effective than the 7.62.

the .23 ghengis is a 5.45 upper.

My 5.45 has killed everything its hit.  I'm super happy with it.

Yeah it is cool, but if you have ever fired a semi- auto 22 the five seven feels the same.  I have fired both the five seven and the P90 and they are a lot of fun.  The P90 can empty its fifty found mag in hurry and you can keep all of the rounds where you want them.

I REALLY want one too. I think something you can rappid fire but still tear a good sized hole into would freakin rock!

Quoted: Quoted: Have there been any documented shootings with this round yet? Yes, there have been. It kills people.

As stated before, any bullet can kill a person eventually. The question is how effectively it kills people. Police involved shootings are (usually) extensively investigated and documented. So how did it perform? I understand that in a military engagements there probably won't be time for a detailed analysis, but is there any word on it, good or bad, from those users?

Quoted: what is the stopping power of the 5.7mm though? It seems to me like it would be even poorer then a .223 (out of a pistol length barrel). Is it any better then a .22?

No.

Impractical for self defense.  If you want one for shits & giggles, and are set for self defense, get one.

Quoted: Lots of critics chimed in about how it's like a .22 and so on.  That's the same thing people say about the .223, but yet we trust our troops and our nation's security with it.

The .223 works real well when it fragments. When it doesn't fragment, it works poorly, just like the 5.7 (although I suspect the .223 still makes a slightly larger hole when tumbling).

Based upon Troy's penetration numbers for the 5.7, I'd say that it was marginal even if it was fragmenting.

Quoted: Anyway, most of those critics are still unable to keep from admitting that if they had the cash, they would add this pistol to their collection.

I'd pass on this one. Plenty of other things to spend money on . . .

Quoted: The 5.7mm ammo is NOT "AP", but it *was* designed to penetrate pistol-rated body armor.  And, it does at common pistol ranges from the Five-seveN pistol.  But the bullet does not expand or fragment, due to the bullet jacket, and the fact that this very short bullet does yaw does not make a whole lot of difference.  Penetration from the pistol is around 5-6" from the Five-seveN (it's about 7" from the P90), and the permanent crush cavity is tiny.  Think "ice pick."

It really has such lousy penetration? In calibrated ballistic gelatin, I assume?

Quoted: Anyone who uses "I wouldn't want to be shot with it" should not be taken too seriously, because who would want to be shot with ANY bullet?

That is a common argument presented by those who favor smaller calibers, and it is a particularly bad one.

For those in the know, where can one get dies, projectiles, and brass to reload for the 5.7

I understand it beats the heck out of the cases but somebody must have started reloading this by now.

Mark

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=10865

This thread was pretty interesting. Guy shoots up body armor with the 5.7x28 round and shows pics.

I think the important question is....
does it make "MAJOR"?


My local shop had one on sale for $800. I passed because it came with 10 round mags. If they get one with 20 rounders, I'd pick it up in a heartbeat simply to have it.

Would I use it for defense? No. I don't use my .45 or .40s for defense either, I use them for fun. Ironically, I use my 9mm for defense.

Please allow me to describe the trigger pull on this firearm.  "A nice surprise at the end of a long and trecherous journey."  

Damn it, I saw a thread by niceguymr with an inocuous title and lots of responses and I got all excited....

I just feel like I wasted several months of my life.  Without going into detail about what I do for a living, let me just say that I spent several months working a case where a perp shot at a police officer with a .22 semi-auto pistol.

The perp is now facing 45 years in prison.  But had I known how harmless a .22 is, according all the critics on this board, I should have walked the guy.

As for the Five Seven, might as well make the non-civilian ammo available to all.  I mean what harm can it do, it's like a .22.  It only makes ice-pick wounds that piss people off, right?  Might as well change the carrying a concealed weapon statutes, the ex-felon in possession of a firearm, the deadly weapon enhancements, etc. to misdemeanors when dealing with ammo that does not exceed 5.7.  We can tell the legislatures that some of the guys from AR15.com were not impressed with the Five Seven and it should not be treated the same as larger caliber handguns/ammo.

Didn't a lot of the guys in Viet Nam have the same view of the M16 when it came out?  They were reluctant to accept it.  They wanted to keep their older heavier rifles with larger ammo.  I wasn't there, but this is what I have been told by some of the older guys I work with that were there.

TAG

Troy,

I don't have to agree with you.  And yes, I know how to read.  I have a bachelors, masters, and a doctorate.  Just because you don't like my argument doesn't mean that it is not logical.  Perhaps the reason you don't like it is because it is effective and contrary to your point of view.  This is a public forum.  You have stated your opinion and I have stated mine.  You apparently do not like my argument.  And that is your right.  So don't buy the gun.  I am not suggesting that you buy it.  I bought it and have shot it and am pleased that it is part of my collection.

For those interested in some testing done with the Five Seven, here is the thread:

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=10865&page=1

Quoted: Troy, Just because you don't my argument doesn't mean that it is not logical....

Huh?  No offense, but where is the logic in your arguement?

Perhaps the reason you don't like it is because it is effective and contrary to your point of view.

 Again, no offense, but Troy's point of view is backed up by real world testing and science.  Your's is backed by......."I wouldn't want to get shot with this thing - vest or no vest"????

I edited my post.  Check out the testing done on the Five Seven with the link above.

Let's get into what is logical and what is not.  This thread says talk me into not buying this gun.  Some guys said don't buy it because it is not a sufficient manstopper, it is like a .22.

I said that lots of people have made the same argument abou the .223  But they are not the same.  Why?  Well there are a lot of reasons.  But one of the reasons is because of the shape of the bullet.  Another is yaw and tumbling.  Another is velocity.  The Five Seven ammo travels at more than 2100 feet per second.  It was used on a level two vest that stopped a .45acp, a .357mag, a .44mag, and the Five Seven hollow point civilian ammo went right through the vest and through the first phone book behind it before getting stuck in the second phone book.  From the test, it appears the bullet tumbled as it went through the vest/phone books.

Now, let's look at how the law treats firearms.  Generally, pellet guns and bb guns are treated different than firearms.  At one time and in some states, the velocity of the projectile was/is used to classify the weapon as a firearm.  Some statutory schemes have looked at the diameter of the projectile to determine whether or not to classify firearms.  Ultimately, the reason we treat crimes involving firearms so seriously, is because they are instruments of death.  Moreso than a knife for example.  .22s are firearms.  So are .223s.  So are 5.7s.  So are .50aes.  They are all capable of killing, some faster than others.  Some go through vests.  Others do not.  Some make big holes.  Some make little holes.  Some enter, turn, and come out making bigger holes.

So yeah, it is logical to say that I would not want to get shot by any firearm.  That includes a .22.  And if I had to choose, I would rather get shot by a .22 than a 5.7.  And if I had to choose between the 5.7 and the .223/5.56, I would rather get shot by the 5.7.  How is that illogical.  It is true.

Now if the question was "Is the 5.7 the most lethal weapon ever created and will it displace the AR15?", then I could see all of this animosity against it.  But that is not the question.  It just says talk me out of buying it.  Some people attempted to do that and others said, get it, it is a good gun to have.  Since I owned one and fired it, I told the thread starter what I thought of it.  Not from speculation, but from my experience with this gun.

So people don't like what I have to say, tuff.  I don't have to be a scientist to say what I like and why.

So you guys think the test was made up?

If the guy had the intention of promoting the Five Seven, but the test was legit, then I have no problem with it.  I mean people shouldn't lie about their motives, but the results are kinda impressive.  Now if the test is a fabrication, then that's another story.

I am not willing to shell out the cash to duplicate the test.  However, if someone has a similar vest laying around and replaced it with a newer one, I would be interested in finding out the result.

Until the test is disproved, I would accept it as being true.  If you compare the .223/5.56 to the 5.7X28, it looks like it would penetrate the vest at over 2100 feet per second.  It is basically a shorter .223/5.56

I'll take the HK 4.7mm instead

$700 from CDNN with 3 10rnders, $10 or $15 shipping, no tax, and no credit card surcharge.

CMMG has the 20rnders for $35 each.

Reeds has the ammo for 35 cents a round.

O.K. then.  I'm convinced that this is definitely not a 'practical' weapon, but more for show and tell.  I think I'd rather stick to weapons that will accomplish what they're meant to do... kill.  This doesn't really seem to fit the bill.  Thanks everyone for all your input!

I saw a guy at the range with an $800 Bushmaster with a $600 Surefire light, a $400 Aimpoint, a $200 stock, and a $250 rail system. He spent damn near twice as much on the accessories as he did the gun itself. What does he use it for? The range. Really practical huh?

Who cares if the 5-7 is practical or not? It's a matter of getting something that's fun.

But if we are going down the practical argument road, what's better a 5.7mm hole or nothing? That's what the 5-7 was designed for, to penetrate when most everything else has failed. Are you likely to face such a situtation? Probably not, but then again, how many here have a BOB? stashed ammo? a SHTF gun? etc? How likely are you to use that? Not very likely.

Quoted: Quoted: Have there been any documented shootings with this round yet? Yes, there have been. It kills people.

I have read there were 2 with the pistol both were said to be one shot kills.

For ccw, I carry a Glock 26/27.  The Five Seven is too big to conceal easily.

In the home, the first gun I would reach for is a 12ga.  The second is a Glock 21.  I am concerned that the Five Seven would penetrate the walls and kill a family member.

If the bad guys come to my house wearing vests, I would meet them with an AK, AR, or Bullpup.  And as a backup, I would have my Five Seven.  Or, if the situation was such that my target was wearing body armor and I needed to conceal my weapon, I would use the Five Seven.  I have also thought about buying a CZ52 7.62X25 for the same kind of situation.

Until that day, the Five Seven is a blast to shoot, and keeps some of my other weapons, that are not very practical (eg. Desert Eagle .50ae), company.

Aimless if you dont knock off this slander stuff If filing a formal complaint about your behavior,  I can see if you were are regular person and clueless but you are site staff and its damn unprofessional....Im a 19 year  law enforcement officer
and I dont fudge my tests, or lie, there is no need and i dont sell anything....now you knock off with the slander. I want an apology from you !Now!

the 5.7 does not expand or fragment, any ar15owner can tell you.......(aimless said we  took a hammer to these the last time he seen this picture :)

The Five Seven is this generation's Dardick pistol (y'know, the one with Trounds...) or Gyrojet.  A neat toy with a worthless gimmick.  Yes, it's an interesting piece, and might be a worthy collectible (at say, $300 dollars or so), but it certainly does not perform as advertised.  The same goes for the .224 Boz, (a similar concept).  A few years down the road, finding ammo for this thing is going to be like finding ammo for your gas seal nagant revolver or velo dog pistol.  hell, it's alread expesnive and hard to find.

Personally, i like the Grendel .22 magnum pistol way better.  It shoots *much* cheaper ammo, holds 30 some odd rounds, and ought to go thru vests if that's really something you just gotta have.

Another cheap alternative is the above mentioned CZ 52.  If somebody offered some ammo for it with hollow or soft points, it would be the cats ass.  and these things are languishing in the gunshops for well under $150 bucks.  Rescue one today!

Personally, i do understand that some funky guns just have a gotta have appeal.  I'd love to have a Semmerling in my collection.

Aimless what in world would have been the point of me doing a mission impossible and finding a old thread? I start threads all my own and post on other weapons.....but you flat out called me a liar and you stand by it ,and this odd conspericy thing....you my friend shoudnt be a moderator
the last time we had it out and you were told to knock it off and still you pesist...i sure wish we could talk about this rather than type...because your personal attacks are not acceptable. Under other circumstances im sure you an ok guy.....but if anybody disagrees with you,you screw with them to no end.were you the one that moved my post 3 times in two days the last time we had a disscussion? If we can abuse our position then I too need to be made a site staff to stop some of this. In fact where do I apply? Site staff are to be the police of the posting board, to keep the peace and not stir trouble and post misinformation....In some cases I dont see this happening...we need moderator for the moderators.
John Lewis
Deputy Constable
Johnson County Texas

You know I've read that other thread as well. I still don't get the point about not being able to search. Isn't that why p99guy started the other thread, because he wasn't able to find another one about the 5.7mm?

Quoted: More info.... world.guns.ru/handguns/hg18-e.htm world.guns.ru/handguns/fn-five7_2.jpg

and yet more: Five-Seven

Quoted: Quoted: You know I've read that other thread as well. I still don't get the point about not being able to search. Isn't that why p99guy started the other thread, because he wasn't able to find another one about the 5.7mm? Wrong thread The first post I saw from him was on a thread someone else started. There had been more than 90 days since the last post, so the only way he could have posted to that thread is if someone else had provided him the url for the thread so he could then post to it and bring it back to the top. He could not have found it with search. Of course that seems curious, why would someone start a new account here and have the address to a thread that was started before he came here, either he, or someone else, had saved that thread address so that p99guy could post to the thread and bring it back up and on top of that the same person then starts new threads saying how great this same product is. When I asked how he had found that thread to post to it he claimed to have found it looking through old threads, which was impossible since he could not have searched back that far and found it.

I see said the blind man!

*yawn*

I just know there's a poin to the 5.7, but I, personally, don't see it yet.

Quoted: *yawn* I just know there's a point to the 5.7, but I, personally, don't see it yet.

The 5.7 was developed to meet a very specific need. It meets that need well, but doesn't do the traditional things well. Most people don't need what the 5.7 does. Doesn't mean the 5.7 isn't good at what it was meant to do.

Quoted: Quoted: *yawn* I just know there's a point to the 5.7, but I, personally, don't see it yet. The 5.7 was developed to meet a very specific need. It meets that need well, but doesn't do the traditional things well. Most people don't need what the 5.7 does. Doesn't mean the 5.7 isn't good at what it was meant to do.

Not to stir it up more, but I remember this same type of talk(not here) when I was buying my first .40 when .40 was still 'untested'. Hell, for that matter, I can still buy .35 Remington off the shelf. Yes, I am an odd ball.


ByteTheBullet  (-: