A union is a business. Dues are the income stream. More members more money more jobs in the union. Unions don't care about their members they only care about their income stream. No different than big business. Individual greed in both groups. Aholes in business, aholes in unions.
The one thing unions have done that businesses can't seem to do is get the membership so opposed to the company they work for that they overlook what ever the union leadership does. Look at the teamsters over the years. They are good at what they do.

Might be true, expect you would have to excise "losers" with winner, after all, I am making money hand over fist...no?

Damn, and doing it on my own with out some lackey holding a gun to a company in your name...

Strange, but I bet you never thought that someone could actually make money without extorting it from someone else.

Well, then I throw the BS flag down at YOUR comments.  [b]I[/b] work at that level.  

I am craft [b]and[/b] union.  

*Wanted to add that the position I recently applied for is within the same scope as my present job but is non-union and pays MORE... just to illustrate that unions aren't always extorting money from the company.  

My union supported me when one of my ex-coworkers had a personal vendetta against me and tried to get me fired.  They also backed when when a supervisor unjustly threatened me.  THAT'S why I support unions.    

Sorry Miss_magnum, but anecdotal evidence doesn't support the claim.

Lets see some cites.

(BTW, hubba hubba).

What?  You want proof?  You don't trust me?  Where's the love, man!  [:D]

Seriously, I work at a level that I could take down the entire Eastern seaboard's telecommunications.  I will not, however, do so just to provide you with proof.  [:p]

A lot of what I do I can't even provide information on because it's proprietary information.  

So, I ask you.... what is it that you are requesting of me as evidence?

Ok, lets start with the easy stuff, your phone number, bra size and risk aversion score numbers.

Seriously, I don't question you for a second Sara.  Seems that one can not have a discussion about this without people going for blood from the get go.

True, I suppose that if income alone is the sole crieria used when judging a fellow man then you would be considered a cussess. But taking into consideration many of your other comments and attitudes, you still sound like a loser. The fact that you still feel the need to start whiny, bitchy threads such as this about subjects which have little bearing on you attests to that.



No one is holding a gun to any company. Not any more than the a non-union employee who quits (withholds his labor) in protest or to find a better compensation package. You're just such a miserable wretch that you can't stand that others are willing to stand and say what their time and life is worth and do something about it.



Strange, I doubt you could even do what I do. Maybe you ought to give it a whirl before leaping to your ignorant conclusions about how I am compensated.

Let's contrast that statement with your opening thread. You're not interested in having a discussion. Only getting in your cheap shots.

 

Let me make the distinction that I work on the data side, and last I checked there were no unions for the data side, nor would I join one.  Telcos have unions, but there aren't any on the data side above the physical layer folks.



It's uncommon, but not unhread of.  Some companies have no problem paying more to not deal with collective bargaining.



Great!  

My father-in-law is a 20+ year employee of a large petrochemical company, working his way up from a grunt to now being plant supervisor.  He's not union, and never has been, and is damn proud he worked his way up to the top on his own with nothing more than a high school education, sheer determination, and the work ethic of a Marine.  He never joined the union because he personally couldn't stand their politics and didn't want anyone speaking for him.  When the plant exploded back in the 80's, killing the person who shared his control chair, he came back every day to help wherever he could and remove the bodies of his friends and co-workers, something he was not required to do, and something the union tried to have him fired for doing!  Could you imagine being a 9/11 worker and your union is trying to have you fired for trying to dig out the bodies of your friends?

While he was doing this and the union was trying to get him fired, his union co-workers were out hunting and fishing and still collecting their paychecks.  He suffered threats, intimidation, and even damage to his property.  But he never gave in.  He refused to take a paycheck without breaking a sweat, and in the end that determination and hard work paid off.  He became the working head of the plant rescue team and teaches corporate firefighting to other plants in the area twice a year.  His teachings are now the basis of a class on petrochemical firefighting being taught at Texas A&M by one of his former students.  He was certainly treated better by the company itself than the union "brothers."

Two years ago, there was an accident at the plant that cost one person, a union member, their life.  When something like that happens, there are mechanisms in place to secure the areas in question as well as all materials (work orders, etc. since most accidents happen during maintenance procedures being enacted by union workers since they are all union on that side).  Word got out that the maintenance workers had not locked down the control modules properly that likely caused the death of their union brother.  But what happened?  Two union managers broke into the lock box and violated the seal of the evidence.  They were caught in the act red handed and on video, and were fired for it.  And what did the union do?  They filed a grievence to keep the people responsible for the accident and altering the evidence on the job!  

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Any of you Union people tell me what union you belong to, and I'll tell you how much that union gave to the Democrats, and the Republicans in Campaign Contributions. I'll guarantee it was a hell of a lot more to the gun grabbing Dems. There have also been a lot of news items lately about unions using union dues for this type thing, even if they were not supposed to...


Aviator  [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]

Wow, with spelling, capitalization and grammar skill like this I can't help but wonder if you had a union teacher.  (here's a hint: I'm just giving you a hard time)

I suppose this subject is as good as any to be my first. Here goes.
Teachers are NOT underpaid. Considering how many weeks a year they work, job security, and last but certainly not least, retirement packages almost impossible to get in the private sector. It's a matter of supply/demand. Becoming a teacher is not that hard . Take a bunch of B.S. "education" classes and you don't even need to specialize in whatever subject you will be teaching. Arbitrarily raising salaries isn't going to do anything. The argument that it will attract better teachers is a poor one because it will also attract more lousy ones too. Also, unions don't want competition among their members. The best thing that could happen to the k-12 education system of this country is to allow competition and make it easier to fire bad teachers.  

So boomer, is it ok for the union to shake down teachers for money when they made it clear they didn't want to be part of the union, even if they benefit from the collective bargaining process?  The union says they've got over 18,000 members who pay dues from their checks and more who pay in cash, and 16,000+ non members, but yet "the many (non-union teachers)are benefitting off the few..." ?!  How the hell is the majority, which are union, the "few?"

And please feel free to explain to me how a union with over 18,000 dues paying members at $810 a pop, for a sum total of [b]14.5 Million dollars[/b] is required to negotiate contracts?  I'm sorry, but it can't possibly cost that much.  As a union member, does the union give you a breakdown of where your money goes?  How much is your union president making a year?  He's balancing out the capitalist injustices while making a 6 and sometimes seven figure salary, so I cannot believe he/she's being altruistic about the whole thing.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

BRC 2003 who's going? who's not?

Too bad we only get to hear the company's biased version of events. They could have very well been trying to secure evidence so that the company could not tamper with it or alter it. Most big companies are only interested in covering their own ass first and reducing their liability for the injury or death of an employee. I've seen this time and time again. Despite all their rhetoric about safety and corporate family, it's only about the bottom line. An incident happens and they'll try to pin resposibility on an employee any way they can and wiggle out of liability.

Really?  OSHA saw the tape of the two union managers in question unlocking and opening the lockbox themselves, after it was placed in the secured area.  Once the box is locked, which is done before any maintenance is done, it is not to be unlocked before the maintenance is successfully completed.  It just so happens that security was called and walked in on them right as they were opening the box.  There was no reason for them to attempt opening the box once an accident happened, as OSHA is the only people authorised to do so.

Furthermore, the evidence is the keys to the locks used to lock down the various valves and control boxes to keep the processes from being brought on-line while work is being performed as well as copies of all the paperwork and precedural checklists.  This lockdown was done by, ta-da, UNION MEMBERS!  The accident was traced back to a valve of a volatile chemical that hadn't been locked down at all.  Who failed to do it?  A UNION WORKER!  It doesn't bother me that the union workers caused the accident, as accidents happen.  It bothers me that the union managers attempted to cover it up to protect their own asses and tampered with the lockbox, and then the union attempted to keep these two union managers on the job.



Once again, nice try, but the company in question has paid for the deaths every time, even when the OSHA gathered evidence has shown that the accident was most likely caused by the failure of workers to follow procedure.  It just so happens that these workers were also union.  So much for striving to protect their members.  More like protection of their own interests.

But it is nice to see how you truly feel about businesses based upon your comments.  You believe all businesses are evil, and all unions are good.  I believe businesses and unions can be both good and bad.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

First off, if the teachers are deriving benefits from the negotiated contract, then yes, it is reasonable to expect them to help pay for the costs of negotiations.

Second, you are basing your hysteria about the account on a newspaper report. Not exactly known for bothering to give us all of the details so they can create alarm and shock to sell their product.

Union dues are structured so that there is a small portion that goes to the International for contract negotiation and admininstrative expenses while the majority goes to the local to cover their operating expenses. In my union, the International dues amounts to about $10 per month. That is what someone who does not want to be an active member of the union is charged for their share of the contract negotiation expenses. Sounds fair enough to me.

So until you can tell me the whole story about this teachers union, maybe you'd just better back off and find out for yourself.

I notice none of  you Union guys ever take me up on this when I post it.


Aviator  [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]

Please, direct me to such volumes.  And if you're going to try and communicate with others, please abide by the rules of grammar.  Proper use of capitalization and spelling is absolutely necessary to communicate with others in a text medium.  And, I did not call you a socialist.  I said socialists tend to forget that, as they are the ones constantly going around saying "This offends me, that offends me!"  In a free society, you have the right to be offended, but not physically hurt.  So go be offended all you like.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

You mean, I don't have a right to be physically hurt?  I can get a offended, but if I'm hurt I'm in the wrong?  Damn, that sucks.

hey aviator, have you ever thought it was because we really dont give a flying fuck?

You already figured it out last time, remember?

I already realize that my union donates disproportionately more to the Democrats than to the Reupblicans and I'm okay with that. It's I vote that matters. And like I said, I'd be just as afraid of the Republicans having solid control as I would the Democrats. Some of the stuff the Republicans are pushing right now sounds straight out of 1930s Germany. This is why I like balance and gridlock.

Now bugger off, scab.

So then you are a socialist puke.  Why then all the hoopla and complaining?

No, I kind of thought it was because you would be embarrassed to have everyone here know the numbers. Step up to the plate man. Boomer did it and I showed that his Union donated more to Hillary Clinton's campaign than any other. Now there is something to be proud of.


Aviator  [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]

Nothing like making your point by reason...


[img]http://www.billybear4kids.com/icons-bb/r-clown.gif[/img]AzzCloWn

Sounds like a prtty secure area. Like I said, you don't know the extent of what was going on or their motive. I've seen my employer conveniently misplace or lose evidence enough times.



Again, you weren't there and don't know anything of the circumstances other than company-man dad's obviously biased versions.



You probably can't tell me anything about how well the company trained the employees or how hard they had been worked, either, correct? And please spare me company-man dad's anectdotal version of events. I'm only interested in impartial testimony.



No, you simply ignorantly rush to judgement of me. Big business isn't automatically evil and unions are definitely not automatically good. I view unions as a necessary evil. Employers and employees have some inherently natural competing interests. Some of us just choose to compete and represent our interests in a different manner.

They're deriving a benefit they don't want.  



Boomer, someone disagreeing with you is not hysteria.  Might you want to find out the meaning of that word before throwing it around?

[b]hys·ter·i·a   Pronunciation Key  (h-str-, -stîr-)n.
Behavior exhibiting excessive or uncontrollable emotion, such as fear or panic.

A mental disorder characterized by emotional excitability and sometimes by amnesia or a physical deficit, such as paralysis, or a sensory deficit, without an organic cause.[/b]

Now, I don't fear unions.  I think they've outlived their usefulness and now server as bases of power for petty tyrants not suited for traditional politics, yet with a significantly Democrat leaning, as well as shields for some who cannot survive in the worforce without protection because of their own laziness and/or ineptitude.



What benefits, other than collective bargaining, does a union normally provide?  I'm aware that they offer Credit Union services in some unions, and some offer pensions.  But what else is there?

So, using what numbers we know from the story and what you say goes to your own international office, let's conduct an academic excercise.  This is purely academic, since we are pulling two sides of the equation from two different instances.  You'll be more than happy to correct me, I'm sure.

$810/year in dues (teacher's union example).
That's $67.50/month.
$10 goes to the international body (your assertion that's what you pay.)
$10 x 12 months x 18,000 members = $2,160,000.
$57.50 is left over for the union local.
$57.50 x 12 x 18,000 = $12,420,000.

Now, for 18,000 dues paying members, that's a lot of cash annually.  I'm really interested to know where that $12million goes.  That kind of money is empowering, but I'm wondering how much of it really goes to empowering you as the worker.



I'd just better?  That kinda sounds like a threat, but I doubt you meant it that way.

I'm asking questions, trying to learn more about your point of view, yet I better back off?  You get mightly childish when your precious union is questioned.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

I guess it would be better stated as you have the right to not be hurt physically by someone else.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

here it is scabby, plumbers &pipefitters local 430 tulsa ok enjoy yourself with it, and be sure to post it, but then remember like a said before, i really dont give a fuck as far as im concerned neither party deserves any of my money.

But the Democrats are getting your money through your union dues.  How much sense does that make?

And I'm sure you spoke out about it, right?  I do not condone a company acting in an illegal unethical manner like that, and I certainly couldn't continue working for one that did.  Believe me, I've left jobs for less.



You assume my father is a company man.  He may be management, but he has no love for the company beyond his paychecks.  Being anti-union does not make one pro-company.  He's pro-self if anything, but he sees the faults in the company just as he does some of his employees.



I sure can.  One of my many areas of expertise is policy and process auditing, specifically in the Infosec area, but I've had my fingers in other policy types as well.  I've looked over the policy documentation, which every employee gets a copy of for his job, and it's pretty clear cut.  It's even in plain english.  For this, the procedure is X, then Y, followed by Z, then AA.  For SOP and EOP documentation, it's pretty well drawn up.  It was also drawn up by the union people.  As far as training, that's all to OSHA standards, and OSHA is certainly not pro-company by any means.  Schedules, these guys work 40 hours just like everyone else unless they're authorised for overtime.



Dad isn't a company man.  He just works for them.  Again, with the us vs. them mentality.



You rush to defend the unions while all your comments on business have been negative.  I'm making my judgements on how you feel about business by basing then upon what you say about business.



What are those competing interests?  My father always told me if I wanted to be the best I had to work with the best, and the rest would take care of itself.  Every book I've ever read on effective management of people has stressed the same thing, as well as taking good care of those people.  As an employer and manager, I always wanted to hire the best and keep them happy.  Training, good benefits, etc.  Want to talk about the expensive dinners for my team on my own dime, not the company?



Hey, if it works for you and you can sleep at night, then more power to you.  I personally chose to bust my ass and do a good job in everything I did.  That's how a high school graduate with some ambition was able to make six figures last year, though things aren't nearly so great this year, but I'm starting my own business.  But the bottome line is collective bargaining does nothing but maintain the status quo.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

actually it makes alot of sense -cents

How do you know this? Are you an affected teachers? Good friends of one? Inquiring monds want to know?  

If they don't want it, like it, or think that they can do better, then why be a true anti-union type and quit, cut and run?



Sounds like a pretty accurate description to me. So tell us why you always feel the need to pile on to these anti-union rant threads?



They represent me in case of an accident. They improve workplace safety. They help me get complex pay claims resolved. They represent my interests in various levels of government.



Write them a letter and request a copy of their financial report. Is that too much effort for you? You're the one so worried about it, not me.



Yeah, you, hielo, and capitalist, our regular union bashers. I'm sure you're just trying to get another point of view. It's obvious in your combative, sarcastic, trollish, and inflammatory posts on the subject. And you have the gall to call someone else childish.

Wrong again.  All of the sys admin guys here that run our LAN/WAN and all of our other computer systems are craft and union.  

As for unions contributing to democratic funds, I was aware of that.  For me it's a Catch 22.  I do think there is a need for unions in some situations so I can't knock them for trying to maintain they're own status by funding political platforms that support their existence.  

You can, also, request that your union not send your funds to the Demo campaign.

Weird.  I've never worked in a union shop, and I've worked in several.  I've worked on the Internet backbone and never run into a union employee.  Are these people memebers of the telco union, because I've never heard of a union for sysadmins/network administrators.  If there is one, would you mind sharing that info with me?

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

One of them specifically said she left the union because she didn't know where her money was going.  Unlike you, she cares.



So they should quit their profession because they don't agree with the union?  They already quit the union or didn't join to begin with.  Sounds like freedom to me.



Wow Boomer, that's downright insulting.  I don't like unions, and I think that's relatively clear, nor do I have any problem stating my opinion and why I dislike them.  

But why do you pile on in the anti-union threads, or the Texas related threads?  There's a joke about a pot, a kettle, and being black in there somewhere if that's your criteria.  But you can't seem to move beyond cheap attacks.  Fair enough.



That's a nice feature.  How often do you get injured and how much would comparable services from a lawyer cost?



How so?  In my examples, union members were directly linked to the problems that caused other union members to lose their lives, union members attempted to cover it up, and the union attempted to keep all of them on the job.  Feel free to look at the OSHA reports covering it if you doubt me, which you do.  But if that's improving workplace safety, then that's a very warped view.  

Sure, at the dawn of the industrial age unions must have played a big part in jobsite safety.  We have government agencies that are responsible for that now.



I'm ignorant as to what a complex pay claim is or why one would need to be resolved.  Care to elaborate?



By promoting Democrats who believe in a nanny state.  Just as well, I suppose, if you believe in nanny labor as your union does.



You're not worried where your dues are going?  Man, that's trust for people you think are a "necessary evil."



I'm not the one resulting to insults, Boomer.  And I am asking questions because I believe in synthesis.  Two opposing viewpoints, and from them both comes a higher level of truth.  It may not change my mind, I'll admit, but it might.  If you don't want to answer my questions just say so and I'll stop asking them.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Telco Union, yes.

Your experiences are YOUR experiences... doesn't make them the rule.  Not in regards to unions or life.  [:D]

Well, I've met many people who run the Internet throught NANOG, and none of them were Union.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

I care where my money goes, but like Miss Magnum said, it's a Catch 22. The Republicans certainly aren't going to be helping me out with labor issues. They only intervene on behalf of big business. If she cares about where her money goes, how much research has she done on the matter? Did the article detail this, or is this nothing more than her convenient excuse not to pay any union dues?



Well, that's that typical anti-union position. If you don't like what you've got, quit and go find a better deal. It must have been said a thousand times here by now. That's what you anti-union types keep telling me what freedom is, the ability to quit and run away if you think your not getting a fair shake. I say freedom also includes the ability to band together and negotiate through strength.



Yeah, and so is your false characterization of union members. Fact is, you'll find leaches and loafers in all workplaces. The employer often just doesn't want to go to the hassle of removing them.

Go right ahead with your hysterical anti-union rants. I'll just keep on disproving them and providing counterpoints.



I get involved in union threads because it's a cause I believe in and has great effect on my life as a worker.

I usually just give Texans a ribbing for starting many threads about how great Texas is. Very unlike the members who continually start or pile on to inflammatory anti-union threads knowing full well that they are instigating a very heated thread. It borders on trollish.

Do you see me starting threads derogatory of Texas? No. What was your point again?

CONTINUED

I work in a fairly dangerous environment. I have yet to be injured but the possibility is always there and is higher than most occupations. And if I do get injured, the injuries are likely to be severe if not fatal. I know fellow employees who have been maimed, permanently disabled, and killed on the job.



We have equipment that is often maintained to the lowest possible levels, if even that at time. A simple signal failure can spell disaster. Employees being worked excessively and who as a result are fatigued can find it difficult to focus on the job at hand. If you're telecom network goes down, maybe I can't get my email or access AR15.com for a while. If my train derails, people can and do get killed and property damage/loss can be astronomical.



Hey, I posted a link for a railroad job. Come on down and see if you can hack it and then tell me all about modern jobsite safety. This ain't no air conditioned cubicle, son.



I don't think I can even begin to explain the system under which my pay is determined. It involves distance travelled, work performed, and arbitrary and penalty claims. The company tends to go through and cut various legitimate pay claims, hoping that the employee won't bother fighting for it.



Get the Republicans to quit coddling and favoring big business and maybe that will change. Again, I'm not sure a corporate state is any better than a nanny state. We're screwed either way.



I know where MY dues are going. Government is a necessary evil, too, yet I still willingly pay all of my taxes.



I don't think you are interested in learning about, understanding, or accepting opposing viewpoints. I can accept and understand that some people don't like unions. Good for them. They have myriad career and employment opportunities that fit their beliefs. Why the need for these continual threads which serve no purpose other than to bash unions? We've gone round and round before and you are no closer to accepting, understanding, leaving the pro-union postion be than before.

And they sometimes do it anyway....

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=129298[/url]


Aviator  [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]