But the scorpion pattern has been altered to look virtually identical to multicam...

It isn't the pattern that failed in 2001. This "new" Scorpion W2 verges on copyright violation.

I think your attempts to stop the Army from using this is a little misguided.

Looks like what i'm wearing right now in Afghanistan.

wrong

It was dropped from the competition because it did not do as well as the final 4. It didn't even come close. ADS, Army Times and Soldier Systems all covered it.

Also, no one has had a look at the Scorpion type two. The Army is still talking about making changes and if they will use MARPAT or the old BDU/ DCU patterns as bookends for woodland and desert.

That means, the Army will make adjustments without the massive field trials that the camouflage in the last test went through and without a properly designed family of camo and we end up with ... below par old tech (2001).

Another bad idea is our forces looking like everyone else. Hell, Russians in the Ukraine are wearing multicam, not to mention everyone else on the planet. Though I have to admit, it doesn't blend well over there.

We could  field multicam to Soldiers anywhere in the world. The only reason that they won't is cost. They would rather blow the money on fraud waste and abuse of our tax dollars.

We deserve the best camo in the world. If you don't agree with that. I have nothing else to say to you.

Someone who's spent time in the operational force and actually has some dirt on their boots probably worries more about getting joe to the shoot house than making sure they're not wearing *gasp* white socks with ACUs.

Besides picking a logical four service camo BDU/DCU they also need to get away from black for weapons and accessories.  Probably coyote brown across the board for weapons finishes, ordnance like AT-4s and LAAWs, optics, etc.  This is the stuff that is always in front of the camo uniform but usually never the same color.

Army releases photo of new camo pattern. Looks like OP can relax.

http://kitup.military.com/2014/08/army-releases-photos-camouflage.html

So the only difference between this & MultiCam is that we don't have to pay Crye royalties?  Except now they're going to sue the gov't for copyright infringement & we'll settle out of court for more than we would've paid 'em anyway?

Copyrighting it was a bit arrogant, but at the same time the Marine Corps did not force every other branch to produce the worst camos in history.

It's like critisizing your sibling for "making" you do something. Yes, they might have done something wrong, but you weren't subsequently forced to make horrible decisions because of it.

I had no idea there were so many camo experts here in GD. Imagine my surprise!

Already have 8 MCUs from deployment

Much better than ACU crap

Wonder when the UCP wear out date will be.

Not really. Another waste of tax payer money. If you are going to do something, do it right instead of developing less effective Multicam

You could still sell that line in '98, but the last dozen years or thereabouts it's been quite the contrary.

Oh, the MRAPs the Marines had in Basra had decidedly less armor than Army MRAPs in 2011.  The Marines are still flying UH-1s.  

Screw that, Hey by the way the 40s, 50s and 60s have called and asked for their uniform and uniform standards back! I'm so tired of hearing OD green combat uniform and class a and b in garrison and off base. You know we no longer have dad dressing in a coat and tie for evening dinner too. Why don't we have soldiers wearing ties in combat, Patton though it was a good idea. Oh and white name and branch tapes too. Folks also keep bringing up the IDF, we are not Israel and their country does not have to deep pockets like ours. UCP was a monumental f'up however we were so focused on Iraq,  where at night in an Iraq urban environment it actually worked ok, however anywhere else it sucks balls. Believe me I hate wearing ACUs all the time but do not miss polishing boots and ironing bdu's. I got lots of other stuff for my troops to do than having to do stupid shit like that every evening. That crap is for your class A. For those who have to wear it Scorpion,  Scorpion version 2, multicam, hell a brown bunny suit or almost anything, will be better than UCP.

How is it less effective?

The Marines don't WANT the UH-60 or AH-64, by sticking with the AH-1Z and UH-1W, they can fit more choppers on the deck and have more commonality of parts and training.  Heck, I have a friend who flies UH-1's for the Air Force, she'd LOVE to get one of the Whiskeys.



 

well the original Scorpion pattern came in 2nd to last in the Army camo trials 10 years ago



 

It's lacking the micropatterns inside the macropatterns - a crucial feature of Multicam. Essentially Scorpion V2 is just Woodland in Multicam coloring. Yet again, the Brits and Aussies will have better camo than us (they have very very slightly modified Multicam).


ETA: Patterns like Multicam and Kryptek are so effective (aside from the colors chosen) because they incorporate a combination of effects. They both offer micropatterns inside macropatterns, and both have a combination of sharpness and blurring. One problem of ATACS is that it is solely blurred, resulting in the colors washing together at moderate distance - which defeats the whole purpose of camouflage. Those sharp micropatterns that are missing in this new Scorpion V2 are responsible for tricking the eye into see sharp objects like sticks, limbs, and leaves in nature. Kryptek uses its honey-cell-like pattern for this.

Quite honestly, the most effective camo would probably be to digitize Multicam (which apparently the SEAL Teams have had done and are using) however the analog pattern of Multicam works pretty damn well and everyone already makes gear in Multicam so the pattern makes the most sense logistically and financially. Watering down the pattern and issuing new gear in it does not

Comparison:

If I was Crye I'd tell them to piss up a rope too.   We don't have the best uniforms, best small arms, or enough training, not because we can't afford them, but because our leadership doesn't care.

The amount of money they're asking for is a fraction of the cost of some of the more extravagant POTUS overseas trips.    

I've pointed this out before; one of the new .gov agencies blew through ten times the amount of money Crye is asking for in gold-bricked HQ renovations.   They then claimed to have lost any and all documentation pertaining to the contracting, budgeting, and approval of that project.    That's 200-some million dollars, and the feds are basically like, "meh, whatever".

Other fed agencies have outright misplaced more money than Crye asked for in a single year.  Nobody gave a fuck.

This is Scorpion W2 a virtually identical pattern  to multicam (based off the pic). I had this stuff in the ghan and I'm telling you that if you took the multicam top and slapped on the sqorpion w2 bottoms even the most astute CSM wouldn't notice.

Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see it.

A comparison doesn't work if you don't label the pictures.

Top is MC
Bottom is Scorpion

MC has a cult following. The notion that this camo is almost as good or even just as good as MC is blasphemy.

I for one would like to see the pics of how this is tested. I think that woodland pattern in different colors is pretty effective myself, and that movement over pattern is the biggest way to hide.  You get a group of people walking through the woods in anything and the pattern itself probably won't save your bacon.

3rd Brigade, 10th Mountain Division wears this:

This is why I think we need to bring back the pickle suit. The Army is turning this shit into a goddamn tactical fashion show. Who can look the most SF? Who the fuck cares?

You obviously care.

I like how W2 looks.

I'm a Cerakote applicator and multicam is fun to do, but it's a bitch. 8 colors and over a dozen different steps. It's the hardest camo pattern to paint - period. The W2 looks easier to do because the "blobs" are larger and fewer. It's like a less congested and blown-up multicam.

I'll try to paint it on a Glock or something soon.

I remember the "Jungle Fatigues" and wearing them at Bragg.

Good times!!  

As already noted, they've stuck with the UH-1/AH-1 for a number of reasons. For that matter, it ain't exactly like the CH-47 is a spring chicken.

As for whipping out a little cash on something new, lessee here:

TankBoatTank (ACV)
BIg Truck (MTVR)
Speyshul Bayonet
M9 wit railz (M9A1)
Interim Cool Guy 45 (ICQB)
Noworky Cool Guy 45 (M45)
ACOGS 4 EVERYONE
Pimp My Rat Patrol (IFAV)
A FULL AUTO AR! (M27 IAR)
Eagle Industries Cool Guy Kit (FILBE)

You get the idea. Not saying any of these were bad expenditures, but it ain't like the Marines are banging around Helmand Province in duece 'n a halfs wearing ALICE gear.

Where is all this stuff about Scopion scoring worst coming from? In the round 2 tests, ACU scored terribly in every terrain other than desert.  Scorpion was dropped for multicam (which is just a nearly identical derivative) because they were considered too similar.  Multicam did reasonably well, but Uncle Sam didn't want to pay royalties and figured just use the nearly identical modified Scopion (which lacks the twigs/"vertical elements of Multicam) and probably mix match for a few years.

In the first round that gave us ACU, the winner was All Over Brush. Read about it here. ACU was derived from something called Urban Track, and Urban Track did poorly, plus the black was taken out based on the nonscientific idea that "there's no black in nature."  (I guess panthers and tigers and cheetahs, and shadows for that matter, are all figments of my imagination.)  Anyway, that was a crazy decision that had nothing to do with the testing and is well documented.  It was the brainchild of Gen. Peter Schoomaker and probably a bunch of dumb ass sycophants who believed things like "battles of the future will take place in urban terrain," the only thing that matters is "night and NVG camouflage" and "there's no black in nature."  All that speculating has no basis in the testing.  Some of it's definitely wrong.  And, in any case, the earlier testing did not support any of that bullshit, and the details of the ACU decision have to some extent been suppressed.  NATICK pulled down information and reports from its website, and the Army has been reluctant to answer media FOIA requests on this issue.

After  numerous complaints re ACU, they tested a bunch of patterns in 2010 and Multicam did well in all environments and better than ACU in all environments.  There is no testing where Scoprion took part and was ranked last or second to last or anywhere close to last.  You only need the Mark 1 Eyeball to see it looks like what it is:  a light green/tan/brown camo that would logically do well in multiple environments since the earth is light green/tan/brown etc.

Multicam was brought into the original phase one testing as the "Commercial Pattern" because a lot of people were reading about it and seeing it in SF circles, in publicaitons, etc., and there was a move to give it a shot.  It also did well in first round testing, and certainly better than Urban Track.  One of better patterns incidentally in the more complete 2010 testing was a Syrian pattern that looked somewhat like my favorite pattern, Rhodesian.  

But I challenge you or anyone to link to any official source that Scopion performed badly in any testing ever.  It is not out there.  I've followed this issue religiously since the bullet magnet ACU camo came on the scene.

MARPAT is good but it's not a universal camo. If you want a universal camo--not saying this is great idea but it has some obvious benefits as well as costs--Multicam, Scorpion/OCP, Kryptek, ATACS,and All Over Brush all seem pretty good. I'd have gone for a version of Rhodesian if I were king of the world or Hyperstealth's US4CES but the new OCP is a massive improvement over ACU/UCP which is out there now and abysmal in woodland conditions.

You are off just a bit. There were 3 seperate camo trials. Only the last one from 2009 compared Kryptek, Brookwood, Crye (Multicam) and Hyperstealth.

If you go to www.hyperstealth.com you can see how the original version of the scorpion pattern scored lower in most tests than the final 4 and always lower than multicam.

1. Scorpion Version 2 does not have the micro patterns of multicam and will not be as effective.
2. While we can all agree than it is much better than UCP on the ACU, it's not the best camo out there for the money.
3. 24 million to own Multicam is chump change, not to mention the cost of possible legal actions regarding copy-write infringement and the lack of a "family" of camo (yet).
4. Not to mention that Scorpion Version 2 didn't exist when the 2018 defense bill went into effect, making additional service uniforms is forbidden, you can only prodice a universal uniform for all services.

We'll see what happens...

I still think we got screwed and deserve the best camo on the market.

They're still flying UH-1 and AH-1 because they fucking chose to.

Seriously, all the UH-1Y, and the AH-1Z models are new-build aircraft that have almost no commonality with the legacy models. They're kinda like the F/A-18E/F series next to the F/A-18A/B/C/D; they look almost the same but that's as far as it goes.

The Corps fucking bought brand-new Hueys and Cobras INSTEAD OF the already available Blackhawks and Apaches that everyone else uses (including the Navy and Coast Guard, for Pete's sake!) because they wanted to be different. And then they can turn around and whine that "we have to make do with all this old shit! Waah, the Army is mean and won't let us have new toys!" And they get to trumpet that the UH-1Y and AH-1Z have a common rotor and drivetrain for maintenance commonality...when they could have had UH-60s that use an identical drive and rotor to the Navy's Seahawks, the Coast Guard's Jayhawks, and the Army's Blackhawks, as well as an Apache that has about the same MX requirements as the Army's and the Brits', and not had to pay any R&D on developing new models because everyone else already did that!

Would have been the same deal as they did with inserting the EGA into MarPat so it could be patented--even though it's the exact same digital pattern as UCP and CadPat. Let someone else pay the R&D, then use the result for no added cost but procuring the actual uniforms and gear!

Don't forget the Osprey, the F/A-35B, the (cancelled after $millions down the hole) Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle, a series of quasi-hybrid ground vehicles they prototyped in the early 2000s but went nowhere, and the M16A4.

The reason the Y/Z was developed was foot print on L platforms; the H60 and AH-64 although good helicopters take up much more space than the H1 series.  The Navy det of H60 is only a few birds as opposed to the Marine ACE which has over 20 aircraft on the big deck.

And helmet, body armor and ruck sack.

I think we can agree, Hyperstealth makes interesting camo and has a terrible website.  Can you provide a direct link that shows how Scorpion did on early trials?  I am willing to learn I am wrong on this, but it seems illogical (but not impossible) to me considering how close it is to multicam which usually does high average in all environments in testing.

http://www.hyperstealth.com/scorpion/

It lays out the scorpion scores vs. multicam.

Multicam scored better in each area except sandy desert, where the scorpion pattern with khaki TA-50 did better (Though I imagine that was largely due to the khaki PPE)

Soooo, will we be seeing a ton of cheap multicam gear hitting the market before too long?

Here's a genuine Scorpion V2 500d pattern pic:







Pattern matches with the ACU in OCP shown above.  

I compared the pattern repeat with my roll of 1000d, the sand tan "sunlight" splotches to Multicam, they are definitely different and the tree branch looking splotches in Multicam are missing

lol camo

Capes/cloaks, fan leggings, winglets that hang down from the arms, and fake parrots that sit on each shoulder should be implemented instead.  Break up dem five Vs.

Thing is I am not sure it's that simple. Crye took their work on Scorpion and used it to basically make Multicam. If I pay a contractor/consultant to make/design something for me and they turn around and start making/selling it for themselves (with some modifications), that's kinda shady to be honest. I'd have subsidized/financed their own self interests without being compensated. Now if Crye came up with the camo pattern and submitted it that is one thing, but if they were paid specifically to develop Scorpion for their client (the US Army), that's a different story.