Quoted: Played for me.

Says it only plays in VLC Player.

Quoted: Quoted: Played for me. Says it only plays in VLC Player.

Good thing that's what I used.

Seriously, I default to the VLC. It's good for most things. The only real problem with it is .wmv files.

VLC player?  Played in Windows Media Player just fine for me.....

I believe I recall reading where the pilot actually had a lock on that second MiG, but his volume was turned down, thus he didn't hear the tone of his AIM-9L (or M, whatever variant he was carrying).  Once he discovered the issue, he corrected it and sent a missile up the Flogger's ass.

Quoted: I believe I recall reading where the pilot actually had a lock on that second MiG, but his volume was turned down, thus he didn't hear the tone of his AIM-9L (or M, whatever variant he was carrying).  Once he discovered the issue, he corrected it and sent a missile up the Flogger's ass.

The pilot was still had SP selected and therefore had no tone until RIO reminded him (RIO gets indication on his display as to what pilot has selected). As soon as pilot selected SW, he got the immediate tone (as does tape recorder) and he fired a Sidewinder.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought they were Libyan SU-22s armed with R-60s. I think that was the 1986 incident. We shot down Libyans twice  Anybody up for 3rds? They gave up. +1 also shooting a rocket through the bedroom window of the Nations leader send s clear message.

Somebody decided it was better to die rich and dictator.

Wonder what his exit plan entails?

I wouldn't want to be sitting on trail like some of the past dictators.

Cash it out. Move to a beach somewhere. Far away.

Quoted: Quoted: I don't know the story so could someone fill me in, why did they attack our planes? IIRC, Lybia claimed national waters extending out 200 miles, while the US only recognized the standard 12(?) miles.  We sent ships on maneuvers less than 200 miles but more than 12 miles out and they attacked us.

I think your wrong about that.

The isssue was that coastal limits follow the coast line.  Libya claimed that the limit was not a line that followed the coast but a straight line that connected the two northern most points of Libya on the Mediteranean.  (Possibly Tripoli and Darnah).  If you look at a map of Libya, you can see that this took a huge portion of the Med that Libya was not entitled to.  (Think what the coastal waters of America would be like if we drew a line from Brownsville Texas to the Floride Keys and claimed that as ours instead of the 200 mile limit.)  Khaudafy (1980's Amercian spelling.) started shooting his mouth off and calling this "The Line of Death."  American carrier groups need lots of room to turn around and manuever in and the Reagan Administration said that we would use the international portion of the Med regardless of any line of death.

Robin Williams turned the line of death thing into a commedy skit.

"This is the Line Of Death.  You cross this line, you Die."

"OK, you cross this line, you die."

"OK, you cross this line, you die."  Robin was drawing imaginary lines around himself.

"OK, you knock on my door, I pretend I am not home."

This air combat was a very good exercise in "Big Stick" diplomacy.  Khadaffi had been making nasty noises about the "Line of Death" across the Gulf of Sidra, and was really becoming a pain in the ass for us.

The lead on this CAP was the Carrier Airgroup Commander or CAG.  His rank at the time was commander.  His wingman was a hot young aviator chosen by him to make the flight.  

The man doing most of the talking was CAG.

You can hear his RIO occasionally in the background providing target and other flight info.

You can also hear the E-2 occasionally providing cues.

There is one very interesting transmission from the Battle Group Commander, "Alpha Bravo" indicating the WARNING and WEAPONS status.  These are orders from the admiral to the shooters.  Listen carefully.  In the surface Navy, we are normally constrained from shooting weapons in anger until given permission by the order "WARNING RED, WEAPONS FREE"  Anything else means hold your fire.  Later AB gets so screwed up he gives the wrong radio signal.

The dialogue between CAG and his RIO just before the first shot is interesting.

I'll just bet the wingman was PISSED he couldn't get into a firing position behind MiG 2.  

All of the conversations were recorded both on the planes IC systems and on the carrier and cruisers tape recorders.

Mohammar's boyz never had a chance and they never recognized the danger until it was too late.

DAMN I loved Ronaldus Magnus!  

I heard all this the day it happened, then later discussed it in detail with an F-14 driver O-6 friend of mine.

Quoted: There is one very interesting transmission from the Battle Group Commander, "Alpha Bravo" indicating the WARNING and WEAPONS status.  These are orders from the admiral to the shooters.  Listen carefully.  In the surface Navy, we are normally constrained from shooting weapons in anger until given permission by the order "WARNING RED, WEAPONS FREE"  Anything else means hold your fire.  Later AB gets so screwed up he gives the wrong radio signal.

I haven't been exposed to this yet. Does "Warning Yellow, Weapons Hold" mean they can shoot in self-defense? What's self-defense for a CAP? Do you have to be fired upon first? Cause obviously we shot first.

Mohammar's boyz never had a chance and they never recognized the danger until it was too late.

Engaging two F-14s... with an E-2 in the area... and a battle group.... fucking smart of those guys lol. I bet they were thanking their lucky stars they survived the ejection.

Khadaffi is reportedly focusing on being "in touch with his people" and trying to help Libyans rather than pick fights with superpowers these days.     That's probably best for all concerned.

Isn't he playing nice with us now, after the Iraq invasion scared him?

Something about (at the time) carrier based EA-3B ELINT birds flying along the coast of Libya, getting them to light up their radars and communications to track the EA-3B's and then having F-14's flying cover pissed off the Libyans enough for them to send their MiG's out after the EA-3Bs.  

Quoted: Something about (at the time) carrier based EA-3B ELINT birds flying along the coast of Libya, getting them to light up their radars and communications to track the EA-3B's and then having F-14's flying cover pissed off the Libyans enough for them to send their MiG's out after the EA-3Bs.

The whole thing struck me as a severe case of cranial-rectal inversion on behalf of Muammar's boys - they should have never played funny games with Uncle Sugar's Ne'er-Do-Wells, as seldom does an enemy make it out of that fight with all his teeth and limbs.

Quoted: You have to give credit to Khadaffi for one thing:   He proved that he WAS able to take the hint.  After losing a few MiGs and his house as well,   he backed down and we hardly ever heard a peep out of him ever since.

Except for that Pan Am flight over Scotland.

I remember this incident plain as day.

DL'ed the vid yesterday, but just now got around to watching it.

I can understand why the first MiG was taken out -- the arrogant bastard prolly thought we'd *never* fully engage until it was too late for him.  He was more of a "Hey y'all, hold my beer and watch this!" kinda guy (I'm guessing), from what I can see.

But the second MiG..............

A good soundtrack for this clip (if thought of from the Libyan perspective) would be that Dierks Bentley song "What was I Thinkin'?".

If I had been that 2nd MiG pilot, like Damon Wayons said in "The Last Stand?":

"I'd be out like a scout on a new route, jack."

Quoted: Quoted: There is one very interesting transmission from the Battle Group Commander, "Alpha Bravo" indicating the WARNING and WEAPONS status.  These are orders from the admiral to the shooters.  Listen carefully.  In the surface Navy, we are normally constrained from shooting weapons in anger until given permission by the order "WARNING RED, WEAPONS FREE"  Anything else means hold your fire.  Later AB gets so screwed up he gives the wrong radio signal. I haven't been exposed to this yet. Does "Warning Yellow, Weapons Hold" mean they can shoot in self-defense? What's self-defense for a CAP? Do you have to be fired upon first? Cause obviously we shot first. Mohammar's boyz never had a chance and they never recognized the danger until it was too late. Engaging two F-14s... with an E-2 in the area... and a battle group.... fucking smart of those guys lol. I bet they were thanking their lucky stars they survived the ejection.

Learn you will young padawan...and then enlightenment you will have.

Quoted: You have to give credit to Khadaffi for one thing:   He proved that he WAS able to take the hint.  After losing a few MiGs and his house as well,   he backed down and we hardly ever heard a peep out of him ever since. Not every dictator is anywhere near as trainable as he is.  He turned out to be smarter than he is stubborn. Actually,  Libya pretty much kept its focus on its internal matters from then on and didn't bug ANYONE. Khadaffi is reportedly focusing on being "in touch with his people" and trying to help Libyans rather than pick fights with superpowers these days.     That's probably best for all concerned. Except Navy fighter pilots, that is.   They're missing out on some exciting live fire practice missions since the Libyans won't come out and play. CJ

Actually, he finally shut the fuck up and quit trying to kill Americans after some F-111s and Navy A-6Es chased his camel jockey ass across the fucking desert, blew up his house, (and sadly killed a child of his...) and damn near killed him!

THEN he got the fucking message:  CEASE and DESIST...NOW asshole or the next raid will succeed.  

Damn I loved Ronaldus Magnus!  

Quoted: DL'ed the vid yesterday, but just now got around to watching it. I can understand why the first MiG was taken out -- the arrogant bastard prolly thought we'd *never* fully engage until it was too late for him.  He was more of a "Hey y'all, hold my beer and watch this!" kinda guy (I'm guessing), from what I can see. But the second MiG.............. A good soundtrack for this clip (if thought of from the Libyan perspective) would be that Dierks Bentley song "What was I Thinkin'?". If I had been that 2nd MiG pilot, like Damon Wayons said in "The Last Stand?": "I'd be out like a scout on a new route, jack."

There were to be NO surviving Libyan aircraft.

As an aside...I remember at the end of the audio tape, CAG tells the wingman to get in tight, follow me down to the deck and haul ass home to mother.

Quoted: Yeah.  He DOES have some sense.   He's actually been acting in a rather respectable manner for several years now. CJ

I say, he's cleaning the books.

The exit plan is the key these days.


Side Note: Somebody just got caught for war crimes (Africa). Another LONG trial coming.

The beach or The Hague?

Quoted: What does it mean to "jink"?

It's a quick evasive maneuver used to attempt to break radar-missile lock....

Quoted: I thought they were Libyan SU-22s armed with R-60s.

Hmmm....thought the export version of the SU-22 had a different designation.

After reading this thread I had to watch The Final Countdown.

Libya I: VF-41 Black Aces F-14As shoot down two Libyan Su-22 Fitter-Js in 1981

  Moammar Gadhafi, leader of Libya, extended the territorial claims over the Medirannean Sea to twelve nautical miles instead of the international accepted 2 miles. Playing the role of the "World Wide Police Force" the US started a challenge against the Libyan leaders' territorial policy: US aircraft carrier battle groups exercised close to the Libyan twelve mile zone while US Navy fighters often entered the Libyan "territorial waters". Often US Navy aircraft were tracked by Libyan radar and Libyan fighter aircraft were launched against US fighter aircraft, heading in their direction and turning away before coming into too short range. But sometimes it came to air combat maneuvering missions between Libyan and US Navy aircraft. The morning of 19 August 1981 began for two patrolling VF-41 F-14As just the same way: Fast Eagle 102 and Fast Eagle 107 were flying Combat Air Patrol (CAP) mission for USS Nimitz (CVN-68) aircraft conducting a missile exercise. A patrolling E-2A Hawkeye made radar contact with two Libyan Sukhoi Su-22 Fitters which had taken off from the former Wheelus Air Force Base near Tripoli and were now heading towards the VF-41 F-14s. As the Fitters were closing in on the Tomcats, the lead Su-22 pilot fired an AA-2 Atoll air-to-air missile at the F-14s. The missile failed, the Su-22s were declaired hostile and the Tomcats were cleared to engage. The lead F-14 went for the Fitter wingman while the other went for the Su-22 leader. Soon thereafter, when the Su-22 turned clear of the sun of the lead F-14 pilot got a lock-on with an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile and fired, hitting the Su-22's tailpipe. The Libyan pilot ejected successfully from his burning Fitter. Meanwhile, the second F-14 fired on his lead Fitter at very close range an AIM-9 air-to-air missile and destroyed the Su-22. The F-14 and its crew had proven itself superior to the Su-22s.
"Navy Two, Libya Zero"



Libya II: VF-32 Swordsmen kill two Libyan MiG-23 Floggers in 1989
The day is January 4, 1989. The airspace close to the Libyan coast. Two VF-32 F-14As from USS John F. Kennedy (CV-67) fly a mission as Combat Air Patrol when a pair of Libyan Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 Floggers were detected. The MiG-23s had taken off from Al Bumbaw Airfield near Tobruk and they continued their flight towards the US fighters, even though the F-14s radar had locked on the bogeys. It's a common procedure under such circumstances to lock the powerful AWG-9 radar on the incoming Libyan fighters, to give them the possibility to turn around and head back home. Usually this procedure was impressive enough to drive the Libyans back since the radar warning tone resulting from an armed F-14's radar was fearsome enough. But this time it did not work. For the second time US Navy F-14s were engaged by Libyan fighter aircraft under hostile conditions. During the 8 minutes engagement, the MiGs kept turning in on the Tomcats to maintain a firing solution for their Soviet built air-to-air missiles. As later examination of F-14 still photography resolved, the MiG-23s were armed with AA-7 Apex missiles. After several evasive maneuvers by the Tomcats and aggressive maneuvers by the Floggers, the incoming pair of MiG-23s were declared hostile and the F-14 crews were cleared to engage. The crew of the lead F-14A, AC202 fired an unsuccessful AIM-7 Sparrow missile, while the second F-14As, AC207 AIM-7 found its target and destroyed one MiG-23. Thereafter, the lead F-14 closed in on the remaining MiG-23 and launched an AIM-9 Sidewinder heat-seaking missile. The missile exploded in the tailpipe of the fleeing Flogger. The pilot of this MiG-23 also managed to eject from his destroyed aircraft. Both pilots were seen with good chutes. After this engagement, the victorious Tomcats headed north for the carrier.
"Navy Four, Libya Zero"

Crew/Description
----------------------------
Gypsy 207 (F-14A, BuNos 159610 AC207)
- Pilot: Joseph B. Connelly (207P)
- Radar Intercept Operator (RIO): Steven P. Collins (207R)

Gypsy 204 (F-14A, BuNos 159013 AC204)- Wingman
- Pilot: Hermon C. "Munster" Cook III (204P)
- Radar Intercept Operator (RIO): Leo F. Enright (204R)

Alpha Bravo
- CVG-67 USS John F. Kennedy Air Command (AB)

Closeout
- Orbiting control aircraft. (CLOSE)

----------------------------
207R- "Gypsy 207 contact at 175, 72 miles, looks like a flight of two, Angels 10."
CLOSE- "Closeout concurs, showing 78 miles."
204R- "Throttle back just a little bit here."
CLOSE- "Closeout shows 25 mile seperation for an inbound"
207R- "Contacts appear to be heading, ah, 315 now, speed 430, Angels approximately 8,000."
CLOSE- "Roger Ace, take it north."
204P- "Looks like we'll have to make a quick loop here."
204R- "Come starboard, ah I need to give ya collision here. Yeah, come starboard about 40."
207R- "207 ah, 61 miles now, bearing 180, Angels 8, heading 330." 204R- "Steady up."
CLOSE- "Alpha Bravo this is Closeout."
204R- "Come back port, ah, 20 degrees here, he's jinkin' now."
207R- "Bogies appear to be coming, ah, jinking to the right now, heading north, speed 430, ah, angels 5,000 now in the descent. So lets take her down now, we're goin' down."
CLOSE- "Concur."
207R- "Closeout, 53 miles now. Bogies appear to be heading directly at us. I'm coming towards. Steady up 150 for 33 offset, 50 miles. 49 miles now, speed 450, Angels 9, I'm goin' down to 3."
204P- "(unintelligible, from 204P, formation flying?)"
207P- "Roger."
207R- "Roger that, 30 degree offset now. Bogies heading 340, speed 500, lets accelerate."
207P- "Okay, it looks like they are at 9,000 feet now."
207R- "Roger, bogies are jinked back into us now, now lets come starboard 30 degrees the other side."
204P- "Coming starboard, say your Angels."
- "(unintelligible) patrol setting up station."
207R- "Roger, Angels now 11, ready up."
AB- "Closeout ah, Warning yellow, weapons hold, I repeat, warning yellow, weapons hold. Alpha Bravo out."
CLOSE- "Roger, Gypsies, pass up, Alpha Bravo directs warning yellow, weapons hold."
207P- "35 miles here."
207R- "Roger that. Bogies have jinked back into me now for the third time. Nose is on at 35 miles, Angels 7"
CLOSE- "Alpha Bravo cleared that, did you copy?"
207R- "Okay, I am taking another offest, starboard, starboard, ah, 210."
CLOSE- "Guys, I'm locked up here 30 miles, Angels 13,000, he's the trailer"
207R- "Roger that, level off here, bogie jinked back into me for the 4th time. I'm coming back starboard. I'm back port now. Port 27 miles, bogie is at 7,000 feet."
207P- "We're at 5."
AB- "Watch out, bogies 135-50, Angels 16, heading 340."
207P- "Okay."
CLOSE- "Roger, same bogies."
207P- "Okay, you're in collision now, steering."
207R- "Okay, bogies have jinked back at me again for the fifth time. They're on my nose now. Inside of 20 miles"
- {Master arm alert}
207R- "Master arm on, master arm on"
CLOSE- "Okay, good light"
207P- "Good Light"
207R- "Okay, centering up the T, bogie has jinked back into me again, 16 miles, at the center of the dot."
CLOSE- "Say your Angels."
207R- "I'm at Angels 5, nose up."
CLOSE- "No, his Angels."
207P- "No, wait a minute."
207R- "Angels are at 9!"
207P- "Alpha Bravo from 207."
207R- "13 miles. Fox 1! Fox 1!"
207P- "Ah jesus!"
204P- "Breaking right."
207R- "Roger that, 10 miles, he's back on my nose. Fox 1 again!"
207P- "Watching 'em up."
207R- "6 miles, 6 miles."
204R- "Tally 2, Tally 2! Turning into me."
207R- "Roger that, 5 miles. . . 4 miles."
207P- "Okay, he's got a missile off."
204R- "Breakin' right."
207P- "Good hit, good hit on one!"
207R- "Roger that, good kill, good kill!"
204P- "I've got the other one."
204R- "Select fox 2, select fox 2!!"
204P- "I got fox 2."
CLOSE- "Keep your eye for the trailer."
207R- "Comin' hard starboard."
204P- "Those fuckin'!"
204R- "Shoot him!"
204P- "I don't got tone."
207R- "That's the second one."
204P- "I've got the second one on my nose right now."
207R- "Okay, I am high cover on you."
204P- "Get a fox, get a, lock him up! Lock him up."
204R- "There! Shoot him, fox 2!"
204P- "I can't! I don't have a fucking tone!"
204P- "Tone's up!"
- {Fox 2--AIM-9 Sidewider launch}
204R- "Fox 2."
204P- "Good kill! Good kill!"
207R- "Okay, good kill."
207R- "Pilot ejected."
CLOSE- "The pilot's ejected out of the second one."
204R- "Okay Munster, lets head north, head north."
207R- "Okay. Port side high, comin' down hard."
204R- "Roger."
207R- "Roger that. Just revert. Blowin' north, let's go down low on the decks, unload, 500 knots, lets get out of here."
204P- "Okay, two good chutes."
CLOSE- "They're showin' two good chutes in the air here, from Munster."
207R- "Roger that, I see the, ah--."
207P- "I've got the splash, one splash."
207R- "One splash."
204R- "Take that down to, ah, 3,000 here Munster."
CLOSE- "The, ah, splash 160 at 96."
204R- "Lets go, Munster down to 3,000 and lets get outta here."

Quoted:
Hey, navy guys, isn't it problematic to use both starboard and right in the same comm? Or is there something I am missing?[/quote
Roll right, roll right. Look to your starburd or o'clock.

Quoted: I wasnt around in 81, and too young to remember it in 89, so I got kind of excited when I read the title thinking it happened recently lol.

Well Im a tad older, but +1 on that.


Yall got me all exited until I realised this wasnt a news flash...


Damn you!!

I actually remember the cover of TIME magazine the week after this incident happened.  It had 2 nice looking F-14s on in and the caption was:  

US NAVY 2    LIBYA 0

Nice........................

Quoted: Quoted: You have to give credit to Khadaffi for one thing:   He proved that he WAS able to take the hint.  After losing a few MiGs and his house as well,   he backed down and we hardly ever heard a peep out of him ever since. Not every dictator is anywhere near as trainable as he is.  He turned out to be smarter than he is stubborn. Actually,  Libya pretty much kept its focus on its internal matters from then on and didn't bug ANYONE. Khadaffi is reportedly focusing on being "in touch with his people" and trying to help Libyans rather than pick fights with superpowers these days.     That's probably best for all concerned. Except Navy fighter pilots, that is.   They're missing out on some exciting live fire practice missions since the Libyans won't come out and play. CJ Actually, he finally shut the fuck up and quit trying to kill Americans after some F-111s and Navy A-6Es chased his camel jockey ass across the fucking desert, blew up his house, (and sadly killed a child of his...) and damn near killed him! THEN he got the fucking message:  CEASE and DESIST...NOW asshole or the next raid will succeed.   Damn I loved Ronaldus Magnus!

I still will not purchase french products.  They wouldn't let us fly over france and we lost a F-111 from the long hall flight.

Quoted: What does it mean to "jink"?

radical out-of-plane maneuver used to invalidate a guns firing solution.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought they were Libyan SU-22s armed with R-60s. I think that was the 1986 incident. We shot down Libyans twice  Anybody up for 3rds?

What's up with KaDaffy? He was all over the news in the eighties, never hear a peep out of him anymore.

The F-111's must have got the point across.

Quoted: Quoted: What does it mean to "jink"? It's a quick evasive maneuver used to attempt to break radar-missile lock....

i think you are confusing jink with notch.

notch= course change to 90deg off the transmitter, which reduced relative motion to 0, and thereby making one a non-target to pulse-doppler speed gate processing.

Quoted: Quoted: DL'ed the vid yesterday, but just now got around to watching it. I can understand why the first MiG was taken out -- the arrogant bastard prolly thought we'd *never* fully engage until it was too late for him.  He was more of a "Hey y'all, hold my beer and watch this!" kinda guy (I'm guessing), from what I can see. But the second MiG.............. A good soundtrack for this clip (if thought of from the Libyan perspective) would be that Dierks Bentley song "What was I Thinkin'?". If I had been that 2nd MiG pilot, like Damon Wayons said in "The Last Stand?": "I'd be out like a scout on a new route, jack." There were to be NO surviving Libyan aircraft. As an aside...I remember at the end of the audio tape, CAG tells the wingman to get in tight, follow me down to the deck and haul ass home to mother.

Well, my point was that I can't fathom what convinced the second pilot moron to stick around after his buddy went down.  The first one, sure -- he didn't think we'd take him out until it was too late for him to bug out.  But there was a *considerable* lapse of time between hit#1 and hit#2.

At the very least, pilot#2 should have asked his betters if he could have harmlessly jettisoned his "nasty cargo" and set that baby down on the carrier (IOW, surrendered and given the good guys the MiG, as well).

Of course, doing what he did do could have been the sacrifice that saved his family back home, so I could be talking out of my ass.

Quoted: After reading this thread I had to watch The Final Countdown.

You mean the music video of the smash hit by 80's supergroup "Europe"?

Quoted: Quoted: Hey, navy guys, isn't it problematic to use both starboard and right in the same comm? Or is there something I am missing? In my very limited aviation career so far, I've yet to hear someone say "turn to starboard" or whatnot. We just said left and right... there may be different convention at sea or whatever. I'd like to defer to someone who is more knowledgeable.

Know NOTHING re Navy Air but in the Sub Service it was mostly port and starboard.  (Though often an order to the helmsman would be something like "come right to 060......." .)



5sub

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You have to give credit to Khadaffi for one thing:   He proved that he WAS able to take the hint.  After losing a few MiGs and his house as well,   he backed down and we hardly ever heard a peep out of him ever since. Not every dictator is anywhere near as trainable as he is.  He turned out to be smarter than he is stubborn. Actually,  Libya pretty much kept its focus on its internal matters from then on and didn't bug ANYONE. Khadaffi is reportedly focusing on being "in touch with his people" and trying to help Libyans rather than pick fights with superpowers these days.     That's probably best for all concerned. Except Navy fighter pilots, that is.   They're missing out on some exciting live fire practice missions since the Libyans won't come out and play. CJ Actually, he finally shut the fuck up and quit trying to kill Americans after some F-111s and Navy A-6Es chased his camel jockey ass across the fucking desert, blew up his house, (and sadly killed a child of his...) and damn near killed him! THEN he got the fucking message:  CEASE and DESIST...NOW asshole or the next raid will succeed.   Damn I loved Ronaldus Magnus!   I still will not purchase french products.  They wouldn't let us fly over france and we lost a F-111 from the long hall flight.

I remember the late Sam Kinnison's bit about that, and the fact that we accidently dropped some ordnance on the French Embassy.

"Whoops!   Sorry about that!   Well.....maybe our aim would've been a little better if we had MORE FUCKIN' SLEEP!!!