U.S.: No List of Inquiry Methods in Iraq  

May 9, 2004 12:00 PM EDT  

WASHINGTON - The U.S. military units holding and interrogating prisoners in Iraq did not get a specific list of techniques permitted during questioning and were expected to follow long-standing limitations in the Geneva Conventions, a senior Pentagon official said Sunday.

Yet to be determined is whether U.S. soldiers, including those facing courts-martial for abuses committed at the Abu Ghraib prison, were encouraged by commanders to use more aggressive practices intended to elicit more information more quickly from prisoners.

Bryan Whitman, a spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, said in an interview that the abuses of Iraqi prisoners that have outraged the world and raised calls for Rumsfeld's resignation were beyond the bounds of authorized practices.

"The policies of the United States and the Defense Department are consistent, in that we do not permit activities or interrogation procedures that are torturous or cruel and that all the techniques that are approved for use are within the law," Whitman said.

Whitman said that for security reasons he could not comment on any specific interrogation techniques.

Not applied to Iraqi detainees were the techniques approved by the Pentagon in April 2003 for use at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, where suspected al-Qaida terrorists are held, according to a senior Pentagon official who discussed the matter on condition of anonymity.

Instead, guards and interrogators in Iraq were expected to follow the Geneva Conventions and other international rules against cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment of prisoners. Army investigations have found that military police were given little or no training in such legal issues.

The techniques approved for use in Cuba were reported in Sunday's Washington Post.

Newsweek magazine reported in this week's issue that some senior members of Congress have gotten briefings indicating, in the words of one official, that U.S. interrogators were not necessarily "going to stick with the Geneva Conventions" in Iraq or elsewhere.

The approved interrogation techniques for Guantanamo Bay included sleep deprivation and exposure to bright lights, but not the forced disrobing of prisoners, the Pentagon official said. No such specific guidelines were drawn up for Iraq, he said.

The reported abuses in Iraq, including sexual humiliation and physical mistreatment, occurred in October and November. That was shortly after Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who was running the Guantanamo Bay detention compound for terrorist suspects, went to Iraq to review detention and interrogation procedures.

Miller concluded that military police who were guarding the prisoners at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere in Iraq should be more actively engaged in "setting the conditions" for successful "exploitation" of detainees, according to an Army report that documented the prisoner abuses. At issue is whether that meant applying techniques that went beyond what the Geneva Conventions allow.

Miller, now in charge of the Iraq detention system, said Saturday that he had not recommended that military police participate in interrogations. Rather, he believed they could be more useful to interrogators in a passive role of relaying information they picked up from prisoners' conversations.

Miller said in his earlier report it was "essential that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions" for more fruitful interrogations of what he called Iraqi "internees."

An Army investigative report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, which he based in part on Miller's assessment of the situation in Iraq in September, took issue with Miller's approach to the challenges in Iraq.

Taguba suggested that Miller was wrong to use the situation at Guantanamo Bay - where the prisoners are suspected terrorists with possible links to those who carried out the Sept. 11 attacks - as a template for Iraq, where the prisoners are Saddam Hussein loyalists and common criminals.

Some lawmakers say there are clear indications from the widely published photos of Army MPs abusing Iraqi prisoners that even if such acts were not ordered or condoned by U.S. commanders, the soldiers thought they were at least condoned.

"All the guards are smiling, they're taking all these pictures, because they know that nobody above them is going to object. They have to know that somebody up there is agreeing to it," Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., said on ABC's "This Week."

Legal guidelines provided by the U.S. Army Intelligence Center in Fort Huachuca, Ariz., say soldiers are not to use physical torture, such as beating, food deprivation or electric shock. Mental stresses - such as mock executions, abnormal sleep deprivation or chemically induced psychosis - also are forbidden.

start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=9&aid=509012558_5308_lead_story

How quickly September 11th is forgotton. Its a new world for you whining pussie liberals isnt it ? ( Not meant for anyone in particular but if the shoe fits, wear it )

So MG Miller, who was running Gitmo, visits Iraq, and calls for MP's to be involved in setting the environment for succesful interogations. After that sleep deprivation, and embaresment techniques start happening in Iraq. Along with what are clearly crimes, beatings sexual assualts, etc. When reports of that are made public, a reserve BG, Karpinski, is relieved of command and replaced by MG Miller. Anyone else see a problem with that scenario?

Also I've read that the 372nd MP Bn was running Abu Ghraib. That's appx 500 soldiers and 7,000 detainees. Apparently military manpower charts call for less than half that many prisoners to be managed by a Bn of MP's.

None of this happened.  At least, not in the way the media claims.  The Neutral Observer doesn't have all the details, and doesn't know exactly what was going on in those photographs, but can tell you with 100% certainty that it was not what the media is claiming went on.  The more obscene of the charges are complete bullshit, and the others are so ridden with distortions that the publicly perceived events are unrecognizable from what really went on.

Wait and let the situation develop.  The facts will come out, and the media will quietly bury the whole incident in a month or so rather than admit they lied and distorted things.  A month from now this will likely be viewed with much less importance than it is now.

What really makes me sick is hearing people defend the MP’s.

The investigation has turned up a lot of evidence and at least three confessors who have implicated other guards.

I wonder what those Iraqi children did to deserve being raped on video for the pleasure of the MP’s. Was this done to keep them awake in order to soften them up for questioning?
Or were the guards making good on their threats to rape and murder the prisoners families if they did not cooperate?

I guess raping female prisoners would be considered to be a good way to keep female prisoners awake but anyone in their right mind would know that doing so is wrong.

So far no one has admitted to killing the 25 dead prisoners. However one died during questioning after being repeatedly kicked. No work yet on any of the murder charges or murder conspiracy charges. So far only twelve of the dead are presumed homicides.

These miscreants may have lost us any chance at winning the hearts and minds of more moderate Muslims throughout the region and perhaps the world. They have dishonored themselves and the uniform and the nation they claim to serve. They have dishonored their fallen comrades who and their actions will cause the enemy to be strengthened in both numbers and resolve and last but not least they have brought judgment done upon the heads of every captured servicemen and women from here on out. They were sent there to represent us and what they did determines who the world views us. Because of this I am deeply offended by their actions and every serviceman.  

Forgive me for not having sympathy for these MP’s. And for the record they did all of the atrocious things the investigation has uncovered before even one serviceman or coalition troop or contractor was burnt and dragged through the streets.

Last time I checked the war was over and these were not prisoners of war wearing a uniform and under a countries armed force control.  They are therefore not prisoners of war and not subject to the Geneva Accords.

IMHO, they are terrorist and if humiliating a 1,000 of the bastards saved one American life it was worth it.

Sorry, I'm usually a rights kind of guy except when it comes to us vs them.

Where was the out cry when our guys are mutliated, dragged through the streets, and then hung and burned while the people dance in the streets.

A little naked humiliation, big Fing deal!



Tj

OLY-M4gery, I was thinking the same thinking about MG Miller when the issue was raised by the reporter in the press conference yesterday.

MG Miller’s answers did not make sense to me.

You're relying on the media to give you all the facts, without mistakes, distortions, spin, and blatant lies.  Would you trust them to give an honest, unbiased, and technically accurate report on guns?

Quoted: Jeremy Sivits was charged with conspiracy to maltreat subordinates and detainees, dereliction of duty for negligently failing to protect detainees from abuse and cruelty and maltreatment of detainees, Kimmitt said. If convicted of all charges, he could face one year in prison, reduction in rank to private, forfeiture of two-thirds of his pay for a year, a fine or a bad conduct discharge, military officials said.

Damn. That's a slap on the wrist. I was thinking more along the lines of a 5 to 7 year sentace, to be served in an Iraqi prison.

If one of your kids was arrested and he was paraded around naked, on a leash, with a chemlight shoved up his ass, you would want those responsible to serve more than a year.

TomJefferson, I would think that it’s far more likely this will cost far more American lives than it could have possibly saved.

One guard says to TomJefferson, “hay! I’ve got a good idea! Let’s get some of the Iraqi guards to forcibly rape some of these young boys and make a video.”

Another guard says to TomJefferson. “Lets take these guys cloths off and put a hood on them. Then we can beat them with pistols and rifle butts and clubs and we can sodomize them with broom handles and kick them and stomp them when they fall on the ground and if they die we will just cover it up so we can do whatever we want.

How does TomJefferson answer

Quoted: OLY-M4gery, I was thinking the same thinking about MG Miller when the issue was raised by the reporter in the press conference yesterday. MG Miller’s answers did not make sense to me.

I think there's 2 types  of  acts we are talking about. One is the sleep deprivation, naked people, chem light stuff (Chemical paced on the skin). The other is the beating, rapes, sodomy, in  custody deaths.

Beating, rapes, sodomy, in-custody deaths, are CLEARLY criminal.

Sleep deprivation, humiliation etc. is ABUSIVE. It is not the way the US treats prisoners.

My question is why was the abusive behavior going on? Was it as some have said, abuse of prisoners by a small group of MP's? Was it at the direction od MI/CIA/NSA/DIA? Or was it a little of both in an MP Bn that was improperly staffed, and led?

MG Taguba's report says that 2 of the MP Bn's in the 800 MP Bde were running excellent prisons/detention facilities, including one that may house Saddam Hussein, and does house many of the upper echelon Iraqi prisoners.

An Army investigative report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, which he based in part on Miller's assessment of the situation in Iraq in September, took issue with Miller's approach to the challenges in Iraq.
 

From one of the articles I posted. MG Taguba's investigation fook place in September? If that is true why are we just hearing about all the problems now? If MG Taguba found problems in September, were those problems addressed? Or allowed to get worse? Where did his reports get sent to?

Update:
newyorker.com/printable/?fact/040517fa_fact2

Quoted: Everyone knows what's going to happen. The Enlisted people are going to get shit on and the Officers are going to get their retirement. The most junior Enlisted person is the first one who is charged? Give me a fucking break, the Commanding Officer or the Officer-in-Charge should be the first one in line. Bet you 10 to 1 odds that Brigadier General Karpinski is going to get that 0-7 retirement pay every month while Private England is going to spend some time at Levenworth when this is all over.

yup

start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=6&aid=D82FEQ8G0_story

The vast majority of the soldiers in the 800th MP Brigade and its subordinate units served without incident in Iraq. Taguba's report reserves special commendations for two battalions within the 800th that operated well, "with little or no guidance from the 800th MP Brigade."

Taguba found the 744th MP Battalion and its commander Lt. Col. Dennis McGlone smoothly ran the prison that holds the top figures of Saddam Hussein's regime - including perhaps the deposed leader himself. The 530th MP Battalion under Lt. Col. Stephen Novotny also did a good job operating the detention camp northeast of Baghdad holding some 2,000 members of the Mujahedeen Khalq, an Iranian guerrilla group opposed to Tehran's clerical regime.

The report commends two individual soldiers and a sailor for either halting abuse at Abu Ghraib or refusing to participate.

But those commendations are tucked at the end of the report.

So the 372nd MP Bn fails to properly run Abu Ghraib, and EVERY person in the 800th MP Bde gets punished?

www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040505-045058-9353r.htm

Another article, pretty in depth. I noticed more people listed as being aware what was going on inside the prison.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Soldiers do not rape boys and murder prisonors, criminals do.  To attempt to justify what happened there is shamefull. The remnants of the Clinton military perhaps? AB Why would you post a statement like that?

b/c clinton fucked over the military...?

Quoted: Soldiers do not rape boys and murder prisonors, criminals do. .

i agree

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/pdf/0505041report.pdf

Don't know if I can make that a hot link, but it's an official looking Army report on the investigation into the prison abuse, posted on the smoking gun.