Quoted: what standard of proof would you need to believe that Jesus was who he said he was?  There were eye witnesses and the events were recorded.  Apply the same standard to this assertion:  George Washington didn't exist.  He was a made up hero cause we needed a "father of the country".

George Washington didn't claim to be a god.

If extraordinary claims are made - claims that go contrary to all logic, reason and experience - then extraordinary evidence should be provided. You ask me to believe that virgins have babies/dead people come back to life/Noah went to the arctic and caught polar bears/Jonah wasn't dissolved by stomach acid in three days/yada yada yada. There's lots of evidence that these things can not happen, and nothing but the second-hand testimony of very biased witnesses who are no longer available that they did.

Facts are sacred to me.

Quoted: postulated an infinite number of universes, but ours is the only one that had all the constants in the exact measurement that would allow life to exist.

Woah.  That statement seems contradictory.  If there is an infinite number of universes, then how could ours *possibly* be the only one with life.

Quoted: So are there any atheists here, and what are yalls thoughts on dying? IMO one of the most scary thoughts ever is that there is no purpose to life, and that we are here for nothing, and our existance is all an accident. I would think that if someone truely believed that then the prospect of dying would be very frightening.

Actually it is what makes life and existence so very important.

What would frighten me is living "this life" in preparation for a "next life" that doesn't exist.

Imagine all the people who lived unfullfilled lives in accordance to their beliefs in ancient Egyptian, Greek and other various myths which were accepted religious fact at the time.

Imagine all the people who killed and died as a result of those beliefs. Tragic, wasted lives.

I think "we", and everything else, are just what happens in the natural universe. I think life "happens" wherever conditions exist to allow it. I don't think of it as an "accident" anymore than I think of it as a "divine plan."

We are fortunate to exist. I'm just trying to enjoy the ride.

I'd like to think there is "something else" but I have seen NOTHING in the way of proof.

People always state that energy cannot be destroyed as evidence that the "soul" go on. I don't think the "soul" (consciousness) is anything more than the produce of an advanced brain that can contemplate abstracts in ways complex enough to observe "itself."

And once that host brain can no longer sustain itself, like a battery that is depleted, I think that "soul" ceases to exist. I don't think there is anything else after that.

We are just a place in time. If we are lucky we will be remembered and will have contributed.

But even that is temporary. One day the sun will erase all evidence that we we ever here.

If we are very lucky, there "is" something else. But I am doubtful that ANY religion has any idea what that "something else" is. Be nice if it was there, but I will live my life here and now, just in case.

I'm an athiest, as many of you know.

didnt read the thread, just the first post.

my thoughts on death are this: it's going to happen.  that's a given.  The rest is an unknown.  The lights very well might just go out when you die, so you should get the very most out of life that you possibly can.  don't spend your life worrying about what happens after life, especially when it consumes your time and takes away from you doing something enjoyable and/or worthwhile

Quoted: Quoted: postulated an infinite number of universes, but ours is the only one that had all the constants in the exact measurement that would allow life to exist. Woah.  That statement seems contradictory.  If there is an infinite number of universes, then how could ours *possibly* be the only one with life.

If there were an infinte number of universes, an infinte number of them would have life.  

The theory that he is speaking of says that there are multiple universes.

Quoted: Right now I'm listening to this song by a band called Muse, they are a pretty good bad IMO.

I love Muse and am pissed that I didn't see them in concert when Absolution came out as I just found them about six months ago. That whole album is scary good, but Thoughts is one of my favorites.

As to your question, I am an atheist and dying most definitely "scares the hell out of me." However, there is not a damned thing that I can do about it. I can only hope that it is quick and that my life had some small impact on the world.

Quoted: Quoted: postulated an infinite number of universes, but ours is the only one that had all the constants in the exact measurement that would allow life to exist. Woah.  That statement seems contradictory.  If there is an infinite number of universes, then how could ours *possibly* be the only one with life.

true

it would seem that if there are really an infinite number of universes, then there would also be an infinite number of universes that are IDENTICAL to ours.

That's the way infinity works, no?

Quoted: Carl Sagan, the far leftist scientist-astronomer's final essay before his eminent death was very interesting.  Didn't care for his politics but he was an interesting character.

I'm glad I am mostly unaware of his politics. Fascinating person.

Quoted: Quoted: That is how Ameratsu set things up, yes.  What is your point? My point is what it is. And as God some dude with ink and parchment said in added to The Bible... "I am that I am." Take it or leave it. Worship a clump of moss for all I care. Won't change anything. THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH and neither your "truth", nor my "truth" will do anything to change that. One day we will ALL know the truth, and frankly, no matter how it may differ from my perception of it... I for one will be GLAD that it's finally and indisputably out there for all to see.

Quoted: What would frighten me is living "this life" in preparation for a "next life" that doesn't exist.

Big +1 to that.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That is how Ameratsu set things up, yes.  What is your point? My point is what it is. And as God some dude with ink and parchment said in added to The Bible... "I am that I am." Take it or leave it. Worship a clump of moss for all I care. Won't change anything. THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH and neither your "truth", nor my "truth" will do anything to change that. One day we will ALL know the truth, and frankly, no matter how it may differ from my perception of it... I for one will be GLAD that it's finally and indisputably out there for all to see.

Exactly.  No deity ever wrote a culture's holy book, scholars wrote them.  In the past, mainly religious scholars (and nobles) could read and write.  They wrote and interpreted the religions, the people just had to believe it.  

I don't understand how anyone could say with a straight face that the bible is the word of God.  It wasn't even written by one person!

In my opinion, believing a bunch of stuff written in a book as fact (without evidence) is just as bad as what scientologists do (their "religion" is based on the science fiction works of L. Ron Hubbard)

Quoted: Everyone has a relationship with God.  Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong.  No one can hide from God and no one can opt out of the relationship.   Atheists are like the characters in a novel.  They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist. We have atheists because God gave everyone free will.

Heathen, you will forver dwell in the hell that is Olive Garden.

Everyone has a relationship with Flying Spaghetti Monster.  Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong.  No one can hide from Flying Spaghetti Monster and no one can opt out of the relationship.   Atheists are like the characters in a novel.  They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist.

We have atheists because Flying Spaghetti Monster gave everyone free will.

Quoted: The reason most people say they don't believe in God is because they don't want to be held accountable for their sins. The truth will set you free...

No, that is why YOU refuse to accept the Easter Bunny as your TRUE lord and savior.

You cannot hide from the Easter Bunny and professed beliefs in your Hebrew God will not save you.

You will be judged.

Quoted: You can always convert at the last minute and according to the Bible you'll be In Like Flynn.

Seems doubtful the God described in the Bible would be easily fooled by an 11th-hour hat-trick.

Quoted: what i described in my first post is how our philosophy teacher put it. I just took a look at The Atheist Web website, apparently the jury is still out there what the exact definition is. So whats the deal with Ameratsu then?

Amaterasu is the true creator of everything and one day will surely destroy this world.

Science has proven it the latter.

Quoted: Quoted: Everyone has a relationship with God.  Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong.  No one can hide from God and no one can opt out of the relationship.   Atheists are like the characters in a novel.  They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist. We have atheists because God gave everyone free will. Heathen, you will forver dwell in the hell that is Olive Garden. Everyone has a relationship with Flying Spaghetti Monster.  Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong.  No one can hide from Flying Spaghetti Monster and no one can opt out of the relationship.   Atheists are like the characters in a novel.  They can't acknowlege their creator, but without him they do not exist. We have atheists because Flying Spaghetti Monster gave everyone free will.

Ramen

Quoted: Quoted: That is how Ameratsu set things up, yes.  What is your point? My point is what it is. And as God said in The Bible... "I am that I am." Take it or leave it. Worship a clump of moss for all I care. Won't change anything. THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH and neither your "truth", nor my "truth" will do anything to change that. One day we will ALL know the truth, and frankly, no matter how it may differ from my perception of it... I for one will be GLAD that it's finally and indisputably out there for all to see.

Amaterasu let those tribes believe in a false God because they didn't recognize her. Thus they were sacrificed along with their decendents. As YOU have been.

Quoted: Quoted: That is how Ameratsu Aten set things up, yes.  What is your point? Fixed it for you, blasphemer.

That is merely how Amaterasu revealed herself to the Egyptians.

Quoted: Quoted: You can always convert at the last minute and according to the Bible you'll be In Like Flynn. Seems doubtful the God described in the Bible would be easily fooled by an 11th-hour hat-trick.

When I was 14, I had a baptist preacher sit me down one-on-one.  I noticed his nylon socks and wondered how uncomfortable they were.

Him:  "you realize there's only one way to get to heaven, right?"
Me:  "Yeah."
Him:  "What's that?"
Me:  hesitation..."live a good life?  Don't hurt people?"
Him:  "No, there are plenty of people like that burning in HELL right now, young man..."  blah blah blah.

I tuned him out and never looked back.

Oh yeah, at some point he did mention accepting Christ will get you in regardless of the crimes and hatred that filled the other 99.9% of your life.

Quoted: Remember what it was like right before you were born? That's exactly what it will be like after you're dead. Except it will last forever. Sorry if that don't give you the warm fuzzies.

Pretty much how I see it.

Quoted: Everyone has a relationship with Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Ohhh.  I hate to break it to you, but I ate your god last tuesday.  I know a lot of ya'll thought you had this nice personal relationship with him, so I feel kinda bad.  On the other hand, he was "divine" shall we say.  The alfredo sauce really was something beyond this world.  

Anyhow, since I have now consummed your God, doesn't this like make me an Avatar or your leader or something?  Let me know.  I have some changes I want to make, especially regarding ya'lls wommenz between the ages of 18 and 30.  

Why isn't this in the Religion Forum, and why aren't we being threatened with account locks?

Quoted: Quoted: Everyone has a relationship with Flying Spaghetti Monster.   Ohhh.  I hate to break it to you, but I ate your god last tuesday.  I know a lot of ya'll thought you had this nice personal relationship with him, so I feel kinda bad.  On the other hand, he was "divine" shall we say.  The alfredo sauce really was something beyond this world.   Anyhow, since I have now consummed your God, doesn't this like make me an Avatar or your leader or something?  Let me know.  I have some changes I want to make, especially regarding ya'lls wommenz between the ages of 18 and 30.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Quoted: Quoted: IMO one of the most scary thoughts ever is that there is no purpose to life, and that we are here for nothing, and our existance is all an accident. I would think that if someone truely believed that then the prospect of dying would be very frightening. Why?  Are you frightened by the thought of all those billions of years you didn't exist before you were born?  If not, there's no reason to be afraid of the billions of years that will go by after you're dead.

But I'm important! I can't just cease to exist!

Quoted: Quoted: I have to throw my $.02 in to this thread....I would have to say that at this point in my life I am "gnostic".....I believe in something greater than ourselves....call it God, Allah, Bhudda, Obi-Wan, the FORCE, whatever, but I DO NOT think we need some form of religion to get closer to this belief.....I have a lot of trouble buying into the whole "risen from the dead" story of Catholicism.....so, what? Jesus was a ZOMBIE??....no, Jesus was a prophet, so was Abraham, so was Mohammed....and who knows who else.....and I can't hold any faith in ANY religion that advocates killing......that just doesn't seem logical....the Crusades....Jihad.....you name it, Protestants and Catholics in Ireland.....shit, they're both Christians, supposedly.......I get big kick out of the people who argue the Bible.......and say "God is real! Jesus is risen"....I say PROVE IT!....."But it is written in the good book".....a book written by man............Let the flames begin what standard of proof would you need to believe that Jesus was who he said he was?  There were eye witnesses and the events were recorded.  Apply the same standard to this assertion:  George Washington didn't exist.  He was a made up hero cause we needed a "father of the country".

1) Jesus was a prophet, nothing more......

2) None of the so called "eyewitnesses" to his resurrection wrote their own Gospels......many of the Gospels were written many years after Jesus' death, and were passed down from generation to generation by WORD OF MOUTH......how many times did the story get embellished every time it was told?

3)Jesus didn't become "divine", (meaning, he was the Son of God),  until nearly 300 years after his death.....at the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.....when it became "official" church policy

4) As far as the bible goes, it was a book written by MEN , not God.....let's talk about a bible story....just one of the many unbelievable ones......the Old Testament story of Abraham, who supposedly fathered a child at the age of 100 years, and lived to be 175 years old during a time when the average life span was less than 60 years?

5) Do a little research on the Vatican.......more specifically, the Vatican Bank scandal of 1978.....read about that, and tell me how "holy" the Catholic church is.......tell me why it meets ALL the criteria of a Fortune 500 company, but is a "non-profit" organization

6) Read even more history into how corrupt many past Popes have been....

George Washington DID exist, and there is written documentation of his exploits from MANY, MANY people, written almost in real time, so to speak, not decades after his death......

You can go on believing whatever you believe.....you can say Jesus was the "Son of God", you can keep telling me about things written in your Bible......do what you will.....makes no difference to me.....

Quoted: Quoted: Everyone has a relationship with Flying Spaghetti Monster.   Ohhh.  I hate to break it to you, but I ate your god last tuesday.  I know a lot of ya'll thought you had this nice personal relationship with him, so I feel kinda bad.  On the other hand, he was "divine" shall we say.  The alfredo sauce really was something beyond this world.   Anyhow, since I have now consummed your God, doesn't this like make me an Avatar or your leader or something?  Let me know.  I have some changes I want to make, especially regarding ya'lls wommenz between the ages of 18 and 30.

Nope, it's just like communion bread. You are now in spiritual harmony with FSM.

How topical, since I just recently wrote Why I Am an Atheist.

I don't fear death, really, but I fear the manner of it.  I'd rather die in my sleep than in a fire, for example.

Quoted: Why isn't this in the Religion Forum, and why aren't we being threatened with account locks?

Because philosophy ISN'T religion.

Now if atheism claimed to KNOW things in a religious way THEN it would be religion.

Tag

Not what I asked.  I asked for you to prove to me that George Washington existed.

Quoted: Quoted: what standard of proof would you need to believe that Jesus was who he said he was?  There were eye witnesses and the events were recorded.  Apply the same standard to this assertion:  George Washington didn't exist.  He was a made up hero cause we needed a "father of the country". George Washington didn't claim to be a god. If extraordinary claims are made - claims that go contrary to all logic, reason and experience - then extraordinary evidence should be provided. You ask me to believe that virgins have babies/dead people come back to life/Noah went to the arctic and caught polar bears/Jonah wasn't dissolved by stomach acid in three days/yada yada yada. There's lots of evidence that these things can not happen, and nothing but the second-hand testimony of very biased witnesses who are no longer available that they did. Facts are sacred to me.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everyone has a relationship with Flying Spaghetti Monster.   Ohhh.  I hate to break it to you, but I ate your god last tuesday.  I know a lot of ya'll thought you had this nice personal relationship with him, so I feel kinda bad.  On the other hand, he was "divine" shall we say.  The alfredo sauce really was something beyond this world.   Anyhow, since I have now consummed your God, doesn't this like make me an Avatar or your leader or something?  Let me know.  I have some changes I want to make, especially regarding ya'lls wommenz between the ages of 18 and 30.   Nope, it's just like communion bread. You are now in spiritual harmony with FSM.

Hmmm.  I don't know.  He seemed pretty pissed when I was eating him.  It wasn't even remotely harmonious.

Why don't you ask his LIVING DESCENDANTS to prove that he exists.  They'll be glad to oblige.

By the way, not everyone considers Washington to be the "father of the country".  He was only one of many, and there was not really anything special about him.  

Quoted: Not what I asked.  I asked for you to prove to me that George Washington existed. Quoted: Quoted: what standard of proof would you need to believe that Jesus was who he said he was?  There were eye witnesses and the events were recorded.  Apply the same standard to this assertion:  George Washington didn't exist.  He was a made up hero cause we needed a "father of the country". George Washington didn't claim to be a god. If extraordinary claims are made - claims that go contrary to all logic, reason and experience - then extraordinary evidence should be provided. You ask me to believe that virgins have babies/dead people come back to life/Noah went to the arctic and caught polar bears/Jonah wasn't dissolved by stomach acid in three days/yada yada yada. There's lots of evidence that these things can not happen, and nothing but the second-hand testimony of very biased witnesses who are no longer available that they did. Facts are sacred to me.

Prove it.  They are making it up.  George Washington was a figurehead for the founding of this nation.

Quoted: Why don't you ask his LIVING DESCENDANTS to prove that he exists.  They'll be glad to oblige. Quoted: Not what I asked.  I asked for you to prove to me that George Washington existed. Quoted: Quoted: what standard of proof would you need to believe that Jesus was who he said he was?  There were eye witnesses and the events were recorded.  Apply the same standard to this assertion:  George Washington didn't exist.  He was a made up hero cause we needed a "father of the country". George Washington didn't claim to be a god. If extraordinary claims are made - claims that go contrary to all logic, reason and experience - then extraordinary evidence should be provided. You ask me to believe that virgins have babies/dead people come back to life/Noah went to the arctic and caught polar bears/Jonah wasn't dissolved by stomach acid in three days/yada yada yada. There's lots of evidence that these things can not happen, and nothing but the second-hand testimony of very biased witnesses who are no longer available that they did. Facts are sacred to me.

My belief follows pure logic:  I know there is a creator because I can see our world and the universe.  Something had to create it (or start the process of the creation). I call this being "The Creator". However, I see ZERO proof that The Creator, cares or knows what goes on here on earth. So my beliefs are simple: The creator started the process of the creation of the universe and then walked away to let it evolve. We are insignificant in the complete picture. The Creator threw the recipe together and walked away to let it bake.

The odds are overwhelming that there are BILLIONS of planets in the universe that contain evolving life, just like on earth. We are no more "special" than a grain of sand, or an insect. We are two steps up the evolutionary ladder above a dog.  I have comfort in knowing that when I die, there is nothing after that. It's the end. I live my life for what it is, and there is nothing that will follow.

Quoted: Not what I asked.  I asked for you to prove to me that George Washington existed.

There is strong evidence that George Washington existed.

And there is evidence that Jesus existed.

What is in question is the concept of divinity.

It is reasonable and logical to believe that there was a man named Jesus of Nazareth. It is not reasonable and logical to believe that his mother was a virgin, that he didn't stay dead, that he could walk on water, and etc.

Do you have trouble believing that the Japanese Emperor existed? The Egyptian Pharoahs? The French Sun King? Mayan rulers?

Do you have trouble believing that they were gods?

I just add one more to the list of thousands than you do, that's all.

Dig up Washington's remains.  Do a DNA test on tooth pulp or bone marrow, and compare it to his living descendants.  

All the church has is the shroud of Turin.  When scientific testing proved that it was most likely a hoax, they said that because there was a fire, the dating can't be trusted.  

By the way, you don't exist because I've never seen you.  

Has anyone here actually seen jtw2?

I don't think that Abraham Lincoln existed, since none of us were alive to see him.  All of the pictures are fakes, as is his hat in the Smithsonian.  His living descendants are all liars.  

Quoted: Prove it.  They are making it up.  George Washington was a figurehead for the founding of this nation. Quoted: Why don't you ask his LIVING DESCENDANTS to prove that he exists.  They'll be glad to oblige. Quoted: Not what I asked.  I asked for you to prove to me that George Washington existed. Quoted: Quoted: what standard of proof would you need to believe that Jesus was who he said he was?  There were eye witnesses and the events were recorded.  Apply the same standard to this assertion:  George Washington didn't exist.  He was a made up hero cause we needed a "father of the country". George Washington didn't claim to be a god. If extraordinary claims are made - claims that go contrary to all logic, reason and experience - then extraordinary evidence should be provided. You ask me to believe that virgins have babies/dead people come back to life/Noah went to the arctic and caught polar bears/Jonah wasn't dissolved by stomach acid in three days/yada yada yada. There's lots of evidence that these things can not happen, and nothing but the second-hand testimony of very biased witnesses who are no longer available that they did. Facts are sacred to me.

Quoted: The reason most people say they don't believe in God is because they don't want to be held accountable for their sins.

Horseshit.  I act the same way now as when I was a believer.  (Except I swear more.)  I am accountable to myself, my family and to society, all of which are far greater checks on behavior than "God."

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everyone has a relationship with God.  Atheists don't think they do.....but they are wrong.   No, you're the one that's wrong.  See how easy it is to make an assertion? Yes, except there are RIGHT assertions, and there are wrong ones. And it must be said that there are a LOT of half-right/half-wrong assertions. Nevertheless, there IS a god... PERIOD.

Prove it.  And even if there IS a God, PROVE that this being is the God of the Bible and cares anything about the actions of humans.

There were plenty of gods and creation stories available until it became fashionable to be Christian.  This is because the Christian morals appealed more to the common folk, who could have been sacrificed or something under some religions.  

Thanks, I think you've proven my point.  It all boils down to what and who you are willing to believe.  In other words, faith.  

Some have faith that Jesus is Lord others have faith that he was a prophet only and still others have faith that he was a made up fairy tale.  

Quoted: Dig up Washington's remains.  Do a DNA test on tooth pulp or bone marrow, and compare it to his living descendants.   All the church has is the shroud of Turin.  When scientific testing proved that it was most likely a hoax, they said that because there was a fire, the dating can't be trusted.   By the way, you don't exist because I've never seen you.   Has anyone here actually seen jtw2? I don't think that Abraham Lincoln existed, since none of us were alive to see him.  All of the pictures are fakes, as is his hat in the Smithsonian.  His living descendants are all liars.   Quoted: Prove it.  They are making it up.  George Washington was a figurehead for the founding of this nation. Quoted: Why don't you ask his LIVING DESCENDANTS to prove that he exists.  They'll be glad to oblige. Quoted: Not what I asked.  I asked for you to prove to me that George Washington existed. Quoted: Quoted: what standard of proof would you need to believe that Jesus was who he said he was?  There were eye witnesses and the events were recorded.  Apply the same standard to this assertion:  George Washington didn't exist.  He was a made up hero cause we needed a "father of the country". George Washington didn't claim to be a god. If extraordinary claims are made - claims that go contrary to all logic, reason and experience - then extraordinary evidence should be provided. You ask me to believe that virgins have babies/dead people come back to life/Noah went to the arctic and caught polar bears/Jonah wasn't dissolved by stomach acid in three days/yada yada yada. There's lots of evidence that these things can not happen, and nothing but the second-hand testimony of very biased witnesses who are no longer available that they did. Facts are sacred to me.

Quoted: There were plenty of gods and creation stories available until it became fashionable to be Christian.  This is because the Christian morals appealed more to the common folk, who could have been sacrificed or something under some religions.

Fashionable?

Pretty much the only thing I'm ridiculed on is my faith in Jesus Christ.  At any rate I'm gonna get out now as this isn't supposed to be a religion thread.  I'm only supposed to advise this:
Jesus is the Christ
He died and rose again on the third day for our sins so that we can be blameless in the sight of God.

"for if they hate you for my sake remember that they hated me first"

Go ahead and ridicule me.  I don't care, I'm in good company.

I agree, it all comes down to faith.  You either have it or you don't.

Quoted: Thanks, I think you've proven my point.  It all boils down to what and who you are willing to believe.  In other words, faith.   Some have faith that Jesus is Lord others have faith that he was a prophet only and still others have faith that he was a made up fairy tale.   Quoted: Dig up Washington's remains.  Do a DNA test on tooth pulp or bone marrow, and compare it to his living descendants.   All the church has is the shroud of Turin.  When scientific testing proved that it was most likely a hoax, they said that because there was a fire, the dating can't be trusted.   By the way, you don't exist because I've never seen you.   Has anyone here actually seen jtw2? I don't think that Abraham Lincoln existed, since none of us were alive to see him.  All of the pictures are fakes, as is his hat in the Smithsonian.  His living descendants are all liars.   Quoted: Prove it.  They are making it up.  George Washington was a figurehead for the founding of this nation. Quoted: Why don't you ask his LIVING DESCENDANTS to prove that he exists.  They'll be glad to oblige. Quoted: Not what I asked.  I asked for you to prove to me that George Washington existed. Quoted: Quoted: what standard of proof would you need to believe that Jesus was who he said he was?  There were eye witnesses and the events were recorded.  Apply the same standard to this assertion:  George Washington didn't exist.  He was a made up hero cause we needed a "father of the country". George Washington didn't claim to be a god. If extraordinary claims are made - claims that go contrary to all logic, reason and experience - then extraordinary evidence should be provided. You ask me to believe that virgins have babies/dead people come back to life/Noah went to the arctic and caught polar bears/Jonah wasn't dissolved by stomach acid in three days/yada yada yada. There's lots of evidence that these things can not happen, and nothing but the second-hand testimony of very biased witnesses who are no longer available that they did. Facts are sacred to me.

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary.  We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss his ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, he'll kick the shit out of you."

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do what ever he wants, and what he wants is to give you a million dollars, but he won't until you kiss his ass."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and he kicks the shit out of you."

Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise; maybe you'll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street."

Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?

John: "Hank has certain connections.'"

Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the shit of you."

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from him..."

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me: "Then how do you kiss his ass?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

Me: "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on "From the desk of Karl" letterhead. There were eleven items listed:

1. Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't drink.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the shit out of you.

Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."

Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me: "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me: "But #9 says 'Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with #2. And #6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2; 9 just clarifies 2. As to 6, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth or from outter space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me: "But not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me: "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."

Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so."

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary blushes. John says: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary looks positively stricken. John shouts: "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary sticks her fingers in her ears: "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary faints. John catches her: "Well, if I'd known you where one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

Quoted: Quoted: There were plenty of gods and creation stories available until it became fashionable to be Christian.  This is because the Christian morals appealed more to the common folk, who could have been sacrificed or something under some religions.   Fashionable? Pretty much the only thing I'm ridiculed on is my faith in Jesus Christ.  At any rate I'm gonna get out now as this isn't supposed to be a religion thread.  I'm only supposed to advise this: Jesus is the Christ He died and rose again on the third day for our sins so that we can be blameless in the sight of God. "for if they hate you for my sake remember that they hated me first" Go ahead and ridicule me.  I don't care, I'm in good company.

Why would I ridicule you?  I would rather have someone believe in a religion that has good morals than some crazy shit based on human sacrifice and eating the children of your enemies.

I understand what Jesus supposedly died for, but I don't see it as making much of a difference.  All you have to do is go outside and you will see that whoever the man was, he seems to have died in vain.  Man is still a barbarous race.  

My goal is not to ridicule someone for their choice in religion (unless it's something really crazy, like scientology), but to support my right to not believe in such things.  I just don't like getting accused of being amoral or ignorant because I don't believe in God or the bible.  I have a strong set of morals, and they rarely conflict with even Christian morals (only where science has disproven certain things that they are based on).  

Quoted: Thanks, I think you've proven my point.  It all boils down to what and who you are willing to believe.  In other words, faith.

So are we going to get into some sort of existentistic debate as to whether things exist if we did not observe them? I can provide emperical evidence of Lincoln and Washington's existence. I can provide pretty good evidence of Jesus's as well. This does not require faith...it is science.

This is not the best line of rhetoric...you should have started on evolution, it is easier to poke scientific holes (really, really shallow holes) in rather than the "prove historical figure existed."

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: postulated an infinite number of universes, but ours is the only one that had all the constants in the exact measurement that would allow life to exist. Woah.  That statement seems contradictory.  If there is an infinite number of universes, then how could ours *possibly* be the only one with life. If there were an infinte number of universes, an infinte number of them would have life.   The theory that he is speaking of says that there are multiple universes.

There are hundreds of constants, for example, Planck's constant, that if only one were slightly different (+ or - 5 percent), life would not exist.  Basically, our universe is the solution to the wave equation that allows life, according to him.  It is stated must more eloquently in the book, I think it is in the third to last chapter.  His question is "Why?".  It is basically a very strong form of the design argument.  What interested me is the man is not even a professing Christian, but spent a couple of pages discussing it in the context of cosmology. Physicists agree that had one of several hundred constants been different, life would never have evolved.  What they differ on is why?  One could argue that it is extremely unlikely that all of these constants were just the right measure to allow life.  This conclusion causes some to believe that God exists.  Other physicists decided to not make a conclusion one way or the other, because they do not believe in God.  In my opinion, it is one of the more powerful arguments for the existence of God.

Quoted: There are hundreds of constants, for example, Planck's constant, that if only one were slightly different (+ or - 5 percent), life would not exist.  Basically, our universe is the solution to the wave equation that allows life, according to him.  It is stated must more eloquently in the book, I think it is in the third to last chapter.  His question is "Why?".  It is basically a very strong form of the design argument.  What interested me is the man is not even a professing Christian, but spent a couple of pages discussing it in the context of cosmology. Physicists agree that had one of several hundred constants been different, life would never have evolved.  What they differ on is why?  One could argue that it is extremely unlikely that all of these constants were just the right measure to allow life.  This conclusion causes some to believe that God exists.  Other physicists decided to not make a conclusion one way or the other, because they do not believe in God.  In my opinion, it is one of the more powerful arguments for the existence of God.

We wouldn't exist, but something else might.  In that case, some ten-tentacled silicon-based (or vaporous plasma-based) lifeform might very well be scratching it's putative reproductive organs and wondering how it happened that the laws of physics were just so in order that it might exist.

Or not.

We're here.  The constants are what they are.  I don't see this as evidence of an intelligent supernatural being that requires worship lest my eternal soul roast in Hell.  That's a stretch of imagination I just can't make.

Of course there are hundreds of constants that have to be just so for life as we know it to exist, that proves nothing.

Could be that all of those constants are or have been different somewhere in the multiverse, we marvel at it because we are here, in this universe, on this planet, at this time, but if we weren't we wouldn't be here NOT to marvel at it, so it's meaningless. For example, there are hundreds of billions of stars around which the evidence suggests there may be trillions of planets, perhaps we're on the only one on which human beings could possibly have evolved, perhaps not, but it isn't all that surprising that Earth is a perfect environment for humans, and this is where we are.

Christianity is an interesting construct, and even so I'm an agnostic, I've still adopted its basic precepts as my own as a result of being raised protestant, and thoroughly trained in doctrine.

I try to discern the right, and then to choose it.

I pray for guidance and forgiveness from any higher power that might exist when I fail.

What I don't do is try to put God in a box, or listen to anyone who does with anything but mild interest and amusement.

But I'm the skeptic, I've always had an easier time with reason than with faith. Faith is even more hazardous to your eternal soul (if there is such a thing) than reason IMO. To deny reason in favor of faith is alien and repugnant to me, reason is a gift, to deny it a sin.

All who know me know I'm a libertarian, that philosophy provides me everything necessary for a complete and consistent moral code based on reason. Anybody who claims there can be no morality without religion is not to be trusted as far as I'm concerned, if the only reason they're honorable is because they fear hell they're capable of anything. When and if reason fails, I'll go with my gut over the teachings of men or the contents of holy books TYVM.

I do not believe this universe is a test and the only way to pass is to profess belief in events I did not witness, that would be unreasonable.

It does take faith to be an Athiest, to be agnostic is simply to admit you don't know.

Quoted: My belief follows pure logic:  I know there is a creator because I can see our world and the universe.  Something had to create it (or start the process of the creation).

Using the SAME LOGIC who or what created the "creator." If "everything" needs a creator then so does the creator.

On the other hand, IF that creator didn't need a creator, or simply has always been, then so could the original energy of the universe.

That is logic.