Nah, it is more marketing.



Many might have the mentality that because a tazer is marketed at non lethal that they 1) might use it more liberally. b) genuinely mistake that, though painful, actually is not lethal.



Similar to the psychology purportedly found in anti-lock brakes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Risk_compensation








 

You mean the carotid resstraint?  Some of us still use it.

Anybody know when (day, time) this happened?



Ban Tasers....its for the childrenz

When I lived in Michigan, everyone at the the Sheriff's office in Bay County had the last name of "Wood".   I went to  T.L. Handy for my time in high school, but I have heard that it has been turned into a middle school since I have left.  I joined the US Army a short time after attended Delta College, and have not looked back since.

Take away the Taser???? OK howbout we just start kicking the shit out of anyone who resists us...better yet...I'll beat 'em with my ASP baton....hope they don't move when I strike so I don't get a head or spine shot......and nevermind any injuries the innocent police officer, with a wife and kids at home, might sustain under such circumstances.  Workman's comp claims went down 79% when my dept. went to the Taser.  That's less of your tax money going toward injuries sustained to the GOOD guys because some duche bag idiot decided he was not going to obey a lawful command, or run from the police....which in turn means lower insurance rates in the long term.  So, I challenge any of the arm chair warriors here....you meet up with that drunken 6'3" 250 lbs peice of drunken pissed off meat who refuses to cooperate or obey your lawful commands.......with your nearest back up 5 minutes out........so you want to go hand to hand and hope for the best...or I guess shooting him would be the answer since it would be justified and we know that it works 100% of the time, with no legal or health ramifications....or maybe you just might want to take that little electric wonder tool out of its holster and let the prongs fly.  You have any idea how many cops it could take to physically subdue a decent size guy that is drunk or high....lets just say I have seen a whole squad gets its ass handed to them...and several cops go the the ER.  Show me any documented proof the Taser has killed anyone who was not high on drugs, or had a pre-existing medical condition.....if you can Taser Int'l would like to talk to you.   You don't ever hear about the in custody deaths where the guy is simply handcuffed and expires...or keels over after a minor resisting...from being high or having a medical condition.  Say your kid is at school in a brawl and will not break it up....and is about to sustain injury....you want me to let them fight it out and hope nobody get's seriously injured, start whacking 'em with the ASP, starting kicking their ass....or maybe a 5 second electric ride.  You people with no freakin hands on practical experience need to stop looking like ignorant jack offs blabbing at the mouth...and maybe used your common sense.....I have seen 15 year olds that could kick most of your asses out there.....stop monday morning quarterbacking, and give those who are doing the best they can to preserve life and property a little suport.  This board sounds like the idiots I deal with in the hood that got our country in this mess......you go out there and deal with these people and do your job and its "fuck the police!"....but when you need the police, boy you don't hesitate to dial 911...and we had better be there in 30 seconds....to help YOU out or save YOUR ass.  Unitl you have been there done that...then STFU!  .........hearing this shit here is getting really old...........rant off

you're welcome

There are 15 year olds that can kick your butt out there.   Me personally, I have had a time when I was involved in an incident with a 15 year old female, at a high school several years ago, where it got to the point were I had to spray her with mace.   It was in the days before tasers.  To make a long story short, I was in a fight, with a large group around, when I deployed mace.  It splashed off her into mine.  Me and the female were both unable to see, and I did not know if my back knew of my location at the time.   They finally arrived after about 10 minutes (the longest 10 minutes in my life).  My feeling at the time is that the suspect had more friends looking on, than people that supported me.  I would rather work the road, than at a high school.  At least you know where you stand when working the road.

Det0nate is GONE.



Banninated.



 

Spot on, but your wasting your breath.. most of them just don't comprehend.  Hell, I'm 6'00  300lbs and I've had a 5'6 140 Lb FEMALE all hyped up on drugs, and while she did end up getting restrained she put up a hell of a fight.  The people that don't see it, and breathe it everyday really havn't the slightest clue.  If they did a ride along some busy weekend then they might* just get a little glimpse of "society"

I'd like to know what you guys want.  

Really... I want to know.

Do you want big/tough/bruiser cops who are ready/able to knock a 15yo kid's teeth down his throat with a single punch, but are otherwise young/dumb/full-of-testosterone, and more likely to get physical with people?  This is what we used to have... and it definitely has its downsides.  

Or do you want a different type of modern officer?  Perhaps slighter-of-frame, maybe a bit older/wiser, more experienced, and better-educated... but they can't go toe-to-toe with Bubba or Rufus the 300lb monster without a little technological assistance? The data on the Tasers shows that they result in fewer injuries FOR EVERYONE... not just the suspects.  Many departments field female officers, who aren't generally as physically capable as a similar-sized male, but who have a distinct edge when dealing with rapes, and other female witnesses/victims... but they DO have a tougher time duking it out.  I think that's a fair trade-off.

Which do you guys want?  You'll occasionally find that rare officer that embodies all of those traits  (big/tough/smart/sensitive), but you'll NEVER find an entire department of them... there just aren't enough to go around at that pay scale.

I'm not a fan of the bad old days... because there were a LOT of problems with the way we used to do things.  For my own part, I'd much rather deal with an older, better-educated, and more-experienced officer (male or female) who has spent a bit of time in the library instead of dedicating his life to the weight pile.  I'll take that over a ex-bar-brawler with a badge.  Everything is a trade-off, and while the bar brawler may be a fine LEO, our society is moving toward a different type of officer... and I can certainly appreciate the reasoning, particularly if it's my wife/daughter who just got mugged.

Which do you gentlemen want?  You're not going to be able to have it all.

ETA: and I had to wrestle with a drunk guy in the ER last week.  He fought seven of us, including an LEO, before we got him restrained... and it took me getting up on the bed and impressing a digit on either side of his trachea to pin him down (don't try this at home).  He wore us all out, and he wasn't that big a guy.

Bingo! But don't tell that to all the guys who only know about Tasers from the TV. Another guy got zapped in CA and was strung out on crack and had a heart attack. The news blammed the Taser without looking into the study on it, which is more in depth than ANY other less than lethal weapon.

Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint.




 

See the wannabe thugs thing is what really bothers me, If i was that cop i would have done the exact same thing if the kid died so what its not like he was a model citizen, resisting the police at 15 sounds like he was going no where fast. All the cop did was save his future wife a couple of beatings.

Everyone is all boohoo, fuck that the cop did his job, can you imagine the mental strain he is going through after killing a young kid even though the kid was an idiot. I say poor cop, whenever i see a car full of these 16 and 17 year old kids all thugged out who think they have to stare me down I want to taise them too and they need it for not being respectful, there is veteran plates on my car do these kids parents not teach them what that means.

When i was a kid my father taught me what a veteran was and how it was polite to say thank you for you service, and to this day I still stop and greet people i see in uniform or the older gentlemen who wear ball caps with there patches on them and i make sure i say hello and "thanks for your service", I really hate how disrespectful kids are now.

Thanks!....got a bit carried away...

And so it begins...

I'll take the old school guys - seemed to maintain a more polite society not tolerating crap. The main thing is I'm not so sure how much of a deterrence modern kinder gentler officers pose. I can't believe they way criminals, suspects, bystanders talk to cops in shows I see. Back when I was a kid in the 60s one kept mouth shut until asked a question and then be respectful in answering or he might break your jaw.  Tasing OTOH is very temporary with no lasting effects.

I have a pre-existing heart condition, HOCM, AND I've been Tasered as part of my training to carry the darn thing.  Guess what?  Other than the embarassment of saying, "Oh, mommy" as I fell flat on my face I wasn't injured in the least bit.....

Brian

There is such a thing called a continuum of force or elevation of force continuum.

Officers are trained (at least in my Dept. they were).

So.....sometimes officers under react and sometimes they over react.

Sometimes, the jury gets to decide and sometimes we just have to bury the dead and mourn.
____________________

And, the age of the person doesn't tell you the whole story either.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is 61 years old..........you want to go up and up with him?

Then.........

I had a police officer friend that got stabbed by a 16 year old.   There was a struggle during the arrest phase.   And the "kid" got a hold of the officer's knife (Buck knife from a belt sheath) and used it to stab him.   The officer was aware of the "kid's" large size but, felt it wouldn't be P.C. to use a higher level of force at the time of the initial arrest contact.  And, we later found out that the "kid" was a member of some martial arts dojo.

BTW, my police officer friend was called "Little Jon" because of his huge size.

Yes, it can happen to anyone...........  

With the job comes risk.

Some can and some can't...........do the job without any problems, as some of the public expects.  

And, physical strength, size, knowledge, education, etc.... doesn't always predict who will be a good officer.

Frequently, success is measured........day to day or contact to contact.
____________________

Now, wouldn't it be nice if everyone just submitted to a lawful arrest, in the first place?

Of course it would.  But, the truth is............it doesn't always happen that way.

And.......there are different views on what's "resisting arrest."

HTH to give you a bigger view.

Aloha, Mark

Can't wait for the video.  I'll stay on the cops side and say the kid was probably high.

Very few people want to be Tased.

Quite a few people are willing to go to blows.

Yup, Taser are safe....sure they are..I agree take taser & that police dept for everything they have....

Kid's family won't see a dime - if they do it won't be from the PD, it will be from the taxpayers.

Please list your personal experience determining Taser's are unsafe.

Brian

In respect to this particular article, I'm gonna hold out for the tox screen.
If he did go after the cop, and taser+drugs=DRT, I just can't seem to get  a reading from my care-o-meter.

In respect to tazers in general, I do think there's a growing problem with them. I do think tasers are being over used, and used in inappropriate circumstances. This comes to mind. Tasing someone who doesn't move quickly enough, even after they're dead?

Here's my proposed middle ground:

Keep tasers in use.  There is overwhelming evidence that, as a whole, they are a good thing.

Review all tasings, up to the level of a fatal shooting, if needed.  There are documented cases of using tasers as torture devices, not as arrest-compliance devices. IF the tasing was found not to be in compliance with department policies and/or common sense, mandatory re-training, including being tased. No ifs, ands, buts, or maybes.  Use a taser innappropriatley, you get tased. Period.

If the investigation found the tasing to be sadistic in nature (as opposed to poor training and over-exuberance), the cop gets ALL the shocks s/he delivered, and then gets charged under any torture statutes exist.

This should keep everyone happy - druggie attacks a cop and dies after being tased, BFD. Taser was found to be used in accordance to policies and common sense, druggie commited suicide by cop.

Cop gets a chip on their shoulder, they reap what the sow.

I'll take being Tased for inappropriate Taser use any day over being struck with an Asp for inappropriate baton use or sprayed with OC for inappropriate OC use......

What you propose is already in place in the majority of depts - use of force is documented like a mofo as a CYA at every dept around here.  We document the use of a wrist lock....

Brian

Waiting to see what he was high on...

Why?

Most likely he was on drugs...

Further, it is his fault for fighting with police, that cause him to be tasered...

This is exactly the sort of situation where the case should be (in an ideal world) thrown out of court right after 'he fought the police' hits the record...

And for the rest of you: Remember, that the other option besides 'taser' (esp in enclosed areas where Mace becomes an area-effect weapon) is 'ass beating' - which is far more likely to result in lasting bodily harm...

You can get tazed...

Or you can get beat up with a big-ass expanding steel baton

Hmm... Which one is more likely to cause perminant damage on MOST people?

I don't have a taser... I do have a 26" steel baton... I know I would not be feeling well if someone hit me with that thing repeatedly - esp someone trained as to where to hit...

I've also breathed enough CS gas to realize that in a confined area, given a taser, baton, and spray/gas... The chemical measure is going to be my LAST choice...

He got tazed for fighting the police...

Shouldn't even make it to court.  Attorneys should have some backbone and tell the family the truth - your relative fucked up and lost.

Brian

In an ideal world..

I'd like to see it acutally implimented - not given lip-service to - and extending it to OC and batons is a pretty good idea.

I have no problem with justified use of force, and have a huge problem with sadistic/bully use of force.

I'm assuming this is something similar to what the Army calls the 'rear naked choke'?

That or he fell onto something in a freak accident.

Probably because the tazer & the laser-sighting dot make for a very intimidating 'presence' even before it's used...

Most folks probably think they can 'win' a 1-on-1 at the start, until the fight is underway & they're losing...

Subduing someone with your hands or fists is MORE force than a taser. Physically grappling with a subject is more force than the Taser.  Taser is the least force that can still be called force. Anything less than taser is just talking.

Finally, a voice of reason...

Big difference between beating a 15 y/o into submission/stop fighting and restraining/cuffing a 15 y/o while minimizing injuries (to the 15 y/o and officers).

I'm 6'4"/240, I can certainly knock the shit out of most 15 y/o's but getting them into cuffs w/o having to get medical clearance afterwards is sometimes a different story....

Brian

just saw it again on the news the lady who called 911 said he tried to attack the Police and then they tazed him. someother person said he was handcuffed when he was tazed, but the Police said he was not handcuffed.

Smart bombs should be withdrawn from USAF service and they should have to go back to resolving situations like trained professionals. The smart bomb has become nothing but a crutch for inept pilots too lazy or too poorly trained to effectively handle a situation without resorting to satellite and/or laser guidance.

What were the cops supposed to do?  The kid messed up and paid for it. We the jury find in favor of the defendants. (me at the civil trial)

I actually like this.  NT wants to make it the law that you do what the cops says or the cops only choice is to shoot you with a gun.  Works for me I see the average IQ of United States hitting record highs within 3 months of this law being passed.  Good luck finding decent SD ammo if you ain't a cop though.

extremely poor analogy, as smart bombs have resulted in the USAF greatly REDUCING the amount of collateral damage, while increasing the effectiveness of out overall mission.  Besides, when we go to work we're SUPPOSED to be the neighborhood bully.

Tasers have greatly reduced the number of injuries to both subjects and officers, hence making policing more effective.



ETA:  No OC or Taser here.

Natural selection takes over. When the cop says sit down....sit down.

Too bad it had to happen

What the above boy needed was a good ole fashioned ass-whoopin by an even bigger, scarier motherfucker.  That will do wonders for a boy, and I can verify that first hand.  At 15, I was 6ft tall and wieghed 240.  I was bigger and stronger than most of the starters on our HS football team.  I ran my mouth when I shouldn't a more than once and the ass kicking did wonders for me.  There was one kid I knew who was like a fucking chimp man, 5ft tall, 140lbs, strong as fuck, and could take all comers, most one handed.  Haven't seen him since HS, heard he does construction now..

I grew up around some really "big" boys and there was one lesson I learned.  You can't beat what you are afraid of.  A really big guy knows that fear and intimidation are some of his primary weapons.  You have to be able to bust trough the facade and fight on your own terms. A trained police officer, especially a pair o them should be able to subdue a 15 year old, but fear makes them whip out the taser.  I would expect that by the time one became a police officer they had started to focus on other aspects of the job than how cool they look in sunglasses, like learning some h2h skills since they are going to be fucking police officers-the motherfuckers you're going to call when you need help.  I tell the wife time and time again, don't call the police, just call me.  They'll only leave a mess for you to clean up.  LIKE A PILE OF TAZERED TEENAGERS CONVULSING ON THE FUCKING LAWN!!!!!!

All in all I chock situations like this up to police work attracting all the wrong sorts of people these days.  There are sooo many power-hungry respect my athoritah jacksses out there that it really diminishes the work of those who are doing their jobs right and actually making a difference.

+1

Of course.

That is why you always bring a taser to a kid fight, not a handgun.