Man threatens Idaho cop with a power saw - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Man threatens Idaho cop with a power saw (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:18:03 AM EDT

[#1]

The other info added, I will defer to the officer on the scene as we all know a few paragraph article does not cover what all transpired.

I hope her supervisors have looked into the incident and determined if she acted correctly in the given situation.

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:18:45 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good for the officer for engaging her brain before engaging her trigger finger.

I would send her to remedial training and psych evaluation to determine if she has the mental ability to depoly deadly force.

This..

It sounds like she is reasonably competent and made the decision to not shoot a drunk guy. Are you concerned for her safety, or are you concerned about this becoming a case precedent and affecting department policies where you work?

Don't be rediculous, if some drunk guy is coming at you with a saw and you can use pepper spray or a firearm you know you're using your firearm.
This won't become case precedent, she used bad tactics. Meeting lethal force with non lethal is stupid and dangerous.

Honestly, it depends how drunk he is, if I have been there dealing with him for a few minutes so I'm aware of how incapacitated he is... Yes, there are drunk guys who are dangerous, but there are drunk guys who are a sip of water away from pissing their pants. She could have watched him fall down twice already, she could have already had the OC in hand to spray him for non-compliance before that, and he reached over and grabbed it off a sawhorse, she sprayed him and it was over. Who knows? Not you or me.

I'm going off of the article, and he was sober enough to walk around and drive his truck. He also charged her and she side stepped him, so he was able to close the gap on her with a deadly weapon in hand.

She used bad tactics plain and simple if the article is a truthful account of the incident.

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:18:55 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

The other info added, I will defer to the officer on the scene as we all know a few paragraph article does not cover what all transpired.

I hope her supervisors have looked into the incident and determined if she acted correctly in the given situation.

I'm satisfied with that conclusion.

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:19:39 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A comment from the website:

This officer is an instructor in just about every form of defensive tactics we have in our academy. I just taught with her this past week. Believe me, if deadly force had been needed she would have deployed it without a seconds hesitation. We work at different deparments but I would not give a second thought to trusting my back and my life to this officer. We chatted a short bit about this call when we got together Monday and she was treating it like every other call but I didn't get in to too many details with her. I did not get the impression that she felt her life was threatened enough to warrant deadly force. I'm not sure if it was because of distance or perhaps she already had her OC out and it was the most accessible tool at the time. But she definitely does not deserve any bashing over it.

ETA: Sounds like the guy was falling down drunk. Not exactly a challenge to deal with without going to deadly force.

Can't let facts get in the way of a chance to pull the trigger. She had an excuse to shoot somebody, and she didn't. She should be fired.

We all know drunk people are incapable of killing someone, and that pepper spray works every time...
She might be the greatest instructor in the world, still doesn't mean she'll drop the hammer if she needs to.

If she was fresh out of the academy, I'd be more inclined to buy into the "She got lucky" argument. As it is, it sounds like she is a seasoned, experienced officer, and she was there, not any of us. The news story is going to be written to make it sound more exciting than it was, because it was a novel situation. They don't write stories every time OC is deployed, but this involved a drunk racist with a power tool. They're not going to say "He took a step toward the officer, then fell down because his BAC was so high he was flammable." They're going to tell how she gracefully sidestepped his attack and stopped the bad guy, just like in the movies.

The only way I can see not shooting this guy is if he's laying on the floor slobbering on himself, then maybe.. If he's up and moving then there's a huge problem with her tactics.

Ok, situation time: There's an 8 year old with a baseball bat coming at you for cuffing his big brother and putting him in the back of your squad. Does DLaw pull the trigger? Why or why not?

This isn't an 8 year old with a bat is it?

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:20:34 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
I'm going off of the article, and he was sober enough to walk around and drive his truck. He also charged her and she side stepped him, so he was able to close the gap on her with a deadly weapon in hand.

She used bad tactics plain and simple if the article is a truthful account of the incident.

If he was "drunk" she should have hooked him for DUI also.

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:23:24 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Good for the officer for engaging her brain before engaging her trigger finger.

I would send her to remedial training and psych evaluation to determine if she has the mental ability to depoly deadly force.

This..

It sounds like she is reasonably competent and made the decision to not shoot a drunk guy. Are you concerned for her safety, or are you concerned about this becoming a case precedent and affecting department policies where you work?

Don't be rediculous, if some drunk guy is coming at you with a saw and you can use pepper spray or a firearm you know you're using your firearm.

This won't become case precedent, she used bad tactics. Meeting lethal force with non lethal is stupid and dangerous.

Honestly, it depends how drunk he is, if I have been there dealing with him for a few minutes so I'm aware of how incapacitated he is... Yes, there are drunk guys who are dangerous, but there are drunk guys who are a sip of water away from pissing their pants. She could have watched him fall down twice already, she could have already had the OC in hand to spray him for non-compliance before that, and he reached over and grabbed it off a sawhorse, she sprayed him and it was over. Who knows? Not you or me.

I'm going off of the article, and he was sober enough to walk around and drive his truck. He also charged her and she side stepped him, so he was able to close the gap on her with a deadly weapon in hand.

She used bad tactics plain and simple if the article is a truthful account of the incident.

Well, the reporter wasn't there, either. How about this for a philosophy that we can both get behind: "A person with a saw (or other weighty object in hand) being used as a weapon is subject to justifiable use of deadly force. Exigent circumstances may influence officer response, at the officer's discretion."

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:29:07 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good for the officer for engaging her brain before engaging her trigger finger.

I would send her to remedial training and psych evaluation to determine if she has the mental ability to depoly deadly force.

This..

It sounds like she is reasonably competent and made the decision to not shoot a drunk guy. Are you concerned for her safety, or are you concerned about this becoming a case precedent and affecting department policies where you work?

Don't be rediculous, if some drunk guy is coming at you with a saw and you can use pepper spray or a firearm you know you're using your firearm.
This won't become case precedent, she used bad tactics. Meeting lethal force with non lethal is stupid and dangerous.

Honestly, it depends how drunk he is, if I have been there dealing with him for a few minutes so I'm aware of how incapacitated he is... Yes, there are drunk guys who are dangerous, but there are drunk guys who are a sip of water away from pissing their pants. She could have watched him fall down twice already, she could have already had the OC in hand to spray him for non-compliance before that, and he reached over and grabbed it off a sawhorse, she sprayed him and it was over. Who knows? Not you or me.

I'm going off of the article, and he was sober enough to walk around and drive his truck. He also charged her and she side stepped him, so he was able to close the gap on her with a deadly weapon in hand.

She used bad tactics plain and simple if the article is a truthful account of the incident.

Well, the reporter wasn't there, either. How about this for a philosophy that we can both get behind: "A person with a saw (or other weighty object in hand) being used as a weapon is subject to justifiable use of deadly force. Exigent circumstances may influence officer response, at the officer's discretion."

I can agree with that.. As the article is written though she made a mistake and is lucky.

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:30:56 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Good for the officer for engaging her brain before engaging her trigger finger.

Doesn't work that way.....give me a power saw and you a can of oc.....I bet I win. NOT a smart move by the officer.

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:31:07 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Ok, situation time: There's an 8 year old with a baseball bat coming at you for cuffing his big brother and putting him in the back of your squad. Does DLaw pull the trigger? Why or why not?

This isn't an 8 year old with a bat is it?

Sure. I think we're past this (reply lag), but I was fishing for you to acknowledge the usefulness of officer discretion in dealing with threats. It would probably be better using a 10-11 year old for the example, since all 8 year olds are still pretty small. Get more into a gray area. My point was that it could be a mentally-retarded 10 year old with a wiffle bat, it could be a huge for his age, juvie rage freak with nails stuck in a Louisville Slugger. Situations that look the same on paper have very different reasonable responses.

ETA: I think we should respect officer discretion more. I think that is something that has fallen by the wayside due to the liability/zero tolerance/litigious society.

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:39:55 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Steven Glen Shelton, 38, smelled of alcohol and clenched a cigarette in his teeth as he picked up a handheld cordless power saw, turned it on, spit on the officer, and charged her

http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/3439216-Man-threatens-Idaho-cop-with-a-power-saw/

officer sidestepped Shelton and sprayed him in the face with pepper spray

Should have shot him.

Holy shit, man...that would have definitely been a good shoot!!

What the fuck is wrong with people?

Good for her for not using deadly force, but it was certainly warranted in this case....geeez...

He was probably damn near falling down drunk. Unless she is a superninja, if she felt comfortable enough (or even able to) to side-step a dumbass with a cordless saw, I doubt he had full motor skills. Hell, he could had already fallen down after missing her before she sprayed him. We can't make that call without being there.

I'm thinking this guy with a powertool instead of a lawnmower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riWv4soQmmw

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:39:59 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good for the officer for engaging her brain before engaging her trigger finger.

I would send her to remedial training and psych evaluation to determine if she has the mental ability to depoly deadly force.

This..

It sounds like she is reasonably competent and made the decision to not shoot a drunk guy. Are you concerned for her safety, or are you concerned about this becoming a case precedent and affecting department policies where you work?

Based on the information given it was a bad primary decision to not use deadly force. If you had a can of OC and I had a saw I would win and kill you. I have been sprayed and can easily fight through slight irritation and kill you. You are assuming he was physically incapable of inflicting deadly force on her. Nothing in the post states there were other circumstances. I'm glad no one was killed, but I have absolutly ZERO fear of this affecting even the Disney Land PD's use of force policy. She WILL need remedial training, think if the guy with the saw was coming after your kid or loved one instead of the officer....would you rather her OC the guy to stop him????

Thought so.

Posted: 3/17/2011 9:56:57 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good for the officer for engaging her brain before engaging her trigger finger.

I would send her to remedial training and psych evaluation to determine if she has the mental ability to depoly deadly force.

This..

It sounds like she is reasonably competent and made the decision to not shoot a drunk guy. Are you concerned for her safety, or are you concerned about this becoming a case precedent and affecting department policies where you work?

Based on the information given it was a bad primary decision to not use deadly force. If you had a can of OC and I had a saw I would win and kill you. I have been sprayed and can easily fight through slight irritation and kill you. You are assuming he was physically incapable of inflicting deadly force on her. Nothing in the post states there were other circumstances. I'm glad no one was killed, but I have absolutly ZERO fear of this affecting even the Disney Land PD's use of force policy. She WILL need remedial training, think if the guy with the saw was coming after your kid or loved one instead of the officer....would you rather her OC the guy to stop him????

Thought so.

The problem is, we have almost no information. A main stream media article. Having been quoted by the main stream media before, I have no confidence that they can provide nearly enough information to draw any useful technical conclusions.

Posted: 3/17/2011 10:39:35 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Good for the officer for engaging her brain before engaging her trigger finger.

I would send her to remedial training and psych evaluation to determine if she has the mental ability to depoly deadly force.

This..

It sounds like she is reasonably competent and made the decision to not shoot a drunk guy. Are you concerned for her safety, or are you concerned about this becoming a case precedent and affecting department policies where you work?

Based on the information given it was a bad primary decision to not use deadly force. If you had a can of OC and I had a saw I would win and kill you. I have been sprayed and can easily fight through slight irritation and kill you. You are assuming he was physically incapable of inflicting deadly force on her. Nothing in the post states there were other circumstances. I'm glad no one was killed, but I have absolutly ZERO fear of this affecting even the Disney Land PD's use of force policy. She WILL need remedial training, think if the guy with the saw was coming after your kid or loved one instead of the officer....would you rather her OC the guy to stop him????

Thought so.

The problem is, we have almost no information. A main stream media article. Having been quoted by the main stream media before, I have no confidence that they can provide nearly enough information to draw any useful technical conclusions.

+1000, never should have been one post then.

Posted: 3/17/2011 11:18:43 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A comment from the website:

This officer is an instructor in just about every form of defensive tactics we have in our academy. I just taught with her this past week. Believe me, if deadly force had been needed she would have deployed it without a seconds hesitation. We work at different deparments but I would not give a second thought to trusting my back and my life to this officer. We chatted a short bit about this call when we got together Monday and she was treating it like every other call but I didn't get in to too many details with her. I did not get the impression that she felt her life was threatened enough to warrant deadly force. I'm not sure if it was because of distance or perhaps she already had her OC out and it was the most accessible tool at the time. But she definitely does not deserve any bashing over it.

ETA: Sounds like the guy was falling down drunk. Not exactly a challenge to deal with without going to deadly force.

Can't let facts get in the way of a chance to pull the trigger. She had an excuse to shoot somebody, and she didn't. She should be fired.

Are you really surprised?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Man threatens Idaho cop with a power saw (Page 2 of 2)

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