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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:18:10 AM EDT
[#1]
Well, while I don't condone that firing on the basis of the information being reported, I will say this:
Kroger is not included in FFCRA We don't know that the employee was eligible for FMLA, had already used up the FMLA she was eligible for, or complied with FMLA reporting requirements ("she had a note and gave it to them" doesn't mean she complied.) If in fact Kroger made internal policy changes that simulated the effect of the FFCRA like the article insinuates, then barring some pretty extenuating circumstances I think they're going to lose this one. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:21:25 AM EDT
[#2]
So did she get tested or just decide to take 14 days off without getting tested?
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:22:42 AM EDT
[#3]
This would have never occurred at Publix, just sayin
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:24:19 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So did she get tested or just decide to take 14 days off without getting tested? |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:25:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Company: Stay Home if you're sick!!!
Employee: I'm sick and have a doctors note Company: Fuck you, you're fired. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:25:50 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RayFromJersey: So did she get tested or just decide to take 14 days off without getting tested? She apparently had a Doctor's excuse to self quarantine for 14 days for possible exposure to COVID 19... Since this lawsuit is already drafted and filed in Federal court, this may have happened early in the pandemic before widespread testing was done. I have access to PACER, I'm going to go read the complaint. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:28:01 AM EDT
[#7]
Yea when you do the right thing and go to the dr. and he tells you to stay home....i mean cmon
She was screwed either way....kroger would fire her for coming to work after a dr told her not to....or theyd fire her as shown |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:29:26 AM EDT
[#8]
I do a good deal of employment work for a number of these restraint chains. More likely than not, she was not fired, but temporarily laid off or told not to report to work until she had quarantined for 14 days and tests negative. The spin is that she’s not eligible for pay, which is tantamount to termination. The fact is that she probably is eligible to return when cleared. We are seeing allot of these claims...person wasn’t actually fired, but couldn’t report to work so they sue for de facto termination.
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:29:36 AM EDT
[#9]
I think under the CARES act, that's a no-no. She'll win.
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:30:05 AM EDT
[#10]
More info about the case:
"...Ariel Robtoy says she began developing Covid-19-like symptoms over the weekend of April 4 and 5. She called Kroger to say she would be absent on Monday April 7 and had a virtual visit with a doctor, who prescribed medicine and gave her a note excusing her from work until at least April 9, she says. The note described her symptoms as including shortness of breath, “a known symptom of” Covid-19, she says. She provided the note to Kroger, but it was rejected because it didn’t include the term Covid-19, Robtoy says in a complaint filed Tuesday in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana. Robtoy had another virtual medical visit April 7 because she began to experience additional suspected Covid-19 symptoms, the lawsuit says. She received a second doctor’s note, which ordered her to remain off work and self-isolate for two weeks, and indicated she either had an upper respiratory infection or Covid-19, Robtoy says. That note was passed along to Kroger the same day as her live-in boyfriend and co-worker provided a note saying he too had to self-isolate and would miss work for two weeks, the suit says. They contacted Kroger again when they realized they weren’t being paid during their absences and her boyfriend was told he could keep his job if he used his accrued vacation time to cover his leave. Because she didn’t have any remaining vacation time to use, she was fired, Robtoy says. That violated the Families First Coronavirus Response Act, the lawsuit says..." The act applies to Kroger even though it has more than 500 employees and typically wouldn’t be covered by the pandemic-inspired law, Robtoy says. That’s because the company voluntarily amended its emergency leave guidelines to permit employees affected by Covid-19 up to 14 days of paid leave, she says. Her termination also violated the Family and Medical Leave Act, which requires employers to reinstate workers who take leave for a serious health condition if they are able to return to their job or a similar position when their leave expires, the suit says. https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/kroger-worker-who-may-have-had-covid-19-sues-alleging-job-bias |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:30:07 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sevensteps: She apparently had a Doctor's excuse to self quarantine for 14 days for possible exposure to COVID 19... Since this lawsuit is already drafted and filed in Federal court, this may have happened early in the pandemic before widespread testing was done. I have access to PACER, I'm going to go read the complaint. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sevensteps: Originally Posted By RayFromJersey: So did she get tested or just decide to take 14 days off without getting tested? She apparently had a Doctor's excuse to self quarantine for 14 days for possible exposure to COVID 19... Since this lawsuit is already drafted and filed in Federal court, this may have happened early in the pandemic before widespread testing was done. I have access to PACER, I'm going to go read the complaint. Would be interested in seeing it. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:30:56 AM EDT
[#12]
Good suing it sounds like.
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:31:24 AM EDT
[#13]
Sounds like Kroger fucked up. But in order to get covered under FMLA, your doctor has to fill out the proper forms and you have to submit them. It's not a drop off a note and it's all good sort of thing.
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:31:57 AM EDT
[#14]
I don't blame kroger..
It would be a PR nightmare if she returned to work and someone found out she was "exposed" to COVID. Kroger might have been forced to shutdown because of it. People want to panic about COVID until panicking puts you out of work. It has happened to millions of people so far. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:32:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Skullsoldier: Would be interested in seeing it. Here is a link to the complaint...It is five pages, which is modest to say the least. https://hr.cch.com/eld/Robtoy-complaint.pdf |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:35:21 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By XxbatraiderxX: I don't blame kroger.. It would be a PR nightmare if she returned to work and someone found out she was "exposed" to COVID. Kroger might have been forced to shutdown because of it. People want to panic about COVID until panicking puts you out of work. It has happened to millions of people so far. You don't blame Kroger for firing her after she had a doctor's excuse for possible COVID 19? |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:35:54 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midcap: This would have never occurred at Publix, just sayin Completely off topic, but Publix, at least here, sucks. They have inferior produce and meat at a much more expensive price point. Everything is more expensive for that matter. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:36:23 AM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:36:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Waldo: Sounds like Kroger fucked up. But in order to get covered under FMLA, your doctor has to fill out the proper forms and you have to submit them. It's not a drop off a note and it's all good sort of thing. According to the complaint, Kroger HR should have initiated FMLA themselves per the FMLA law....According to her, they never offered anything. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:38:54 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More info about the case: "...Ariel Robtoy says she began developing Covid-19-like symptoms over the weekend of April 4 and 5. She called Kroger to say she would be absent on Monday April 7 and had a virtual visit with a doctor, who prescribed medicine and gave her a note excusing her from work until at least April 9, she says. The note described her symptoms as including shortness of breath, "a known symptom of" Covid-19, she says. She provided the note to Kroger, but it was rejected because it didn't include the term Covid-19, Robtoy says in a complaint filed Tuesday in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana. Robtoy had another virtual medical visit April 7 because she began to experience additional suspected Covid-19 symptoms, the lawsuit says. She received a second doctor's note, which ordered her to remain off work and self-isolate for two weeks, and indicated she either had an upper respiratory infection or Covid-19, Robtoy says. That note was passed along to Kroger the same day as her live-in boyfriend and co-worker provided a note saying he too had to self-isolate and would miss work for two weeks, the suit says. They contacted Kroger again when they realized they weren't being paid during their absences and her boyfriend was told he could keep his job if he used his accrued vacation time to cover his leave. Because she didn't have any remaining vacation time to use, she was fired, Robtoy says. That violated the Families First Coronavirus Response Act, the lawsuit says..." The act applies to Kroger even though it has more than 500 employees and typically wouldn't be covered by the pandemic-inspired law, Robtoy says. That's because the company voluntarily amended its emergency leave guidelines to permit employees affected by Covid-19 up to 14 days of paid leave, she says. Her termination also violated the Family and Medical Leave Act, which requires employers to reinstate workers who take leave for a serious health condition if they are able to return to their job or a similar position when their leave expires, the suit says. https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/kroger-worker-who-may-have-had-covid-19-sues-alleging-job-bias Ok, reading between the lines here because I've dealt with employees who can't seem to understand their responsibility when it comes to "doctors notes." Employee submits a note that says "Self isolate for 14 days." Kroger says "Well, is this for Covid or something else? The note isn't specific and our policy only allows time off for Covid related isolation. Call your doctor and get a new note." Employee doesn't, or refuses, or can't explain to the doctor because she's incompetent, or throws a temper tantrum about Kroger wanting her "medical information." Kroger terminates the employee, because if they don't, they're opening themselves up to providing 14 days of paid leave to any and every employee who can get a doctor to write them a note that says they must stay home for 14 days without any specifics. The emphasis on the complaint "a known symptom of Covid..." makes me think this is what happened. Kroger is not a medical professional. It's not their responsibility to evaluate their employee's symptoms. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:39:57 AM EDT
[#21]
I feel like this would also violate ada laws, she's gonna get paid.
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:41:17 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Johnnyutah: Company: Stay Home if you're sick!!! Employee: I'm sick and have a doctors note Company: Fuck you, you're fired. I knew this kind of shit was going to happen and for sure people that got sick before testing was widely available. I hope Kroger gets their ass handed to them. She went to a Doctor who put it in writing she should self isolate. If she ignored that and went to work Kroger would have fired her if they found out. So she follows her Doctors orders and still gets fired. Total bullshit |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:43:50 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kuraki: Ok, reading between the lines here because I've dealt with employees who can't seem to understand their responsibility when it comes to "doctors notes." Employee submits a note that says "Self isolate for 14 days." Kroger says "Well, is this for Covid or something else? The note isn't specific and our policy only allows time off for Covid related isolation. Call your doctor and get a new note." Employee doesn't, or refuses, or can't explain to the doctor because she's incompetent, or throws a temper tantrum about Kroger wanting her "medical information." Kroger terminates the employee, because if they don't, they're opening themselves up to providing 14 days of paid leave to any and every employee who can get a doctor to write them a note that says they must stay home for 14 days without any specifics. The emphasis on the complaint "a known symptom of Covid..." makes me think this is what happened. Kroger is not a medical professional. It's not their responsibility to evaluate their employee's symptoms. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kuraki: Ok, reading between the lines here because I've dealt with employees who can't seem to understand their responsibility when it comes to "doctors notes." Employee submits a note that says "Self isolate for 14 days." Kroger says "Well, is this for Covid or something else? The note isn't specific and our policy only allows time off for Covid related isolation. Call your doctor and get a new note." Employee doesn't, or refuses, or can't explain to the doctor because she's incompetent, or throws a temper tantrum about Kroger wanting her "medical information." Kroger terminates the employee, because if they don't, they're opening themselves up to providing 14 days of paid leave to any and every employee who can get a doctor to write them a note that says they must stay home for 14 days without any specifics. The emphasis on the complaint "a known symptom of Covid..." makes me think this is what happened. Kroger is not a medical professional. It's not their responsibility to evaluate their employee's symptoms. You missed highlighting the second portion of the next doctor visit: Robtoy had another virtual medical visit April 7 because she began to experience additional suspected Covid-19 symptoms, the lawsuit says. She received a second doctor's note, which ordered her to remain off work and self-isolate for two weeks, and indicated she either had an upper respiratory infection or Covid-19, Robtoy says. Also, it was apparently Kroger's responsibility to offer FMLA...Complaint says they didn't...It looks to me like they just racked her attendance points while she was off sick till they maxed her out and then Kroger fired her. That ain't gonna fly IMO... |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:44:08 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RayFromJersey: So did she get tested or just decide to take 14 days off without getting tested? If there were tests to even be had. In some places they were rationing them to high-risk individuals. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:44:26 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like Kroger fucked up. But in order to get covered under FMLA, your doctor has to fill out the proper forms and you have to submit them. It's not a drop off a note and it's all good sort of thing. I wonder if she ever contacted HR or just expected the manager to do everything for her? Unless the manager was a complete moran, telling her to contact HR and get thing squared away should have been the next sentence in the conversation after getting handed the plague note. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:46:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Waldo: Sounds like Kroger fucked up. But in order to get covered under FMLA, your doctor has to fill out the proper forms and you have to submit them. It's not a drop off a note and it's all good sort of thing. I've done FMLA a few times, for children/birth. That paperwork is a formality, and an after-the-fact requirement. You are covered by FMLA regardless. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:46:48 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here is a link to the complaint...It is five pages, which is modest to say the least. https://hr.cch.com/eld/Robtoy-complaint.pdf |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:48:35 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've done FMLA a few times, for children/birth. That paperwork is a formality, and an after-the-fact requirement. You are covered by FMLA regardless. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sounds like Kroger fucked up. But in order to get covered under FMLA, your doctor has to fill out the proper forms and you have to submit them. It's not a drop off a note and it's all good sort of thing. I've done FMLA a few times, for children/birth. That paperwork is a formality, and an after-the-fact requirement. You are covered by FMLA regardless. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:48:47 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Skullsoldier: I do a good deal of employment work for a number of these restraint chains. More likely than not, she was not fired, but temporarily laid off or told not to report to work until she had quarantined for 14 days and tests negative. The spin is that she’s not eligible for pay, which is tantamount to termination. The fact is that she probably is eligible to return when cleared. We are seeing allot of these claims...person wasn’t actually fired, but couldn’t report to work so they sue for de facto termination. If your employer says don't bother coming in and you won't get paid, you've been fired. You can say whatever legal mumbo jumbo you want, but that's what has happened. Lawyers are part of the problem, not the solution. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:49:38 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By staringback05: Yea when you do the right thing and go to the dr. and he tells you to stay home....i mean cmon She was screwed either way....kroger would fire her for coming to work after a dr told her not to....or theyd fire her as shown Yeah, this - would have fired her not listening to doc's recommendation to self quarantine. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:49:40 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You missed highlighting the second portion of the next doctor visit: Also, it was apparently Kroger's responsibility to offer FMLA...Complaint says they didn't...It looks to me like they just racked her attendance points while she was off sick till they maxed her out and then Kroger fired her. That ain't gonna fly IMO... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ok, reading between the lines here because I've dealt with employees who can't seem to understand their responsibility when it comes to "doctors notes." Employee submits a note that says "Self isolate for 14 days." Kroger says "Well, is this for Covid or something else? The note isn't specific and our policy only allows time off for Covid related isolation. Call your doctor and get a new note." Employee doesn't, or refuses, or can't explain to the doctor because she's incompetent, or throws a temper tantrum about Kroger wanting her "medical information." Kroger terminates the employee, because if they don't, they're opening themselves up to providing 14 days of paid leave to any and every employee who can get a doctor to write them a note that says they must stay home for 14 days without any specifics. The emphasis on the complaint "a known symptom of Covid..." makes me think this is what happened. Kroger is not a medical professional. It's not their responsibility to evaluate their employee's symptoms. You missed highlighting the second portion of the next doctor visit: Robtoy had another virtual medical visit April 7 because she began to experience additional suspected Covid-19 symptoms, the lawsuit says. She received a second doctor's note, which ordered her to remain off work and self-isolate for two weeks, and indicated she either had an upper respiratory infection or Covid-19, Robtoy says. Also, it was apparently Kroger's responsibility to offer FMLA...Complaint says they didn't...It looks to me like they just racked her attendance points while she was off sick till they maxed her out and then Kroger fired her. That ain't gonna fly IMO... |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 10:51:29 AM EDT
[#32]
On a side note, I found her Twitter account here:
https://twitter.com/urellovesherbby  But what I like the best is her quote on her Twitter page: "Pretty decent girl, but if you fuck with me all hell will break loose!" Seems fitting...  
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:03:04 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sevensteps: You don't blame Kroger for firing her after she had a doctor's excuse for possible COVID 19? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sevensteps: Originally Posted By XxbatraiderxX: I don't blame kroger.. It would be a PR nightmare if she returned to work and someone found out she was "exposed" to COVID. Kroger might have been forced to shutdown because of it. People want to panic about COVID until panicking puts you out of work. It has happened to millions of people so far. You don't blame Kroger for firing her after she had a doctor's excuse for possible COVID 19? I'm just being bitter in this clown world environment. No, I don't think it's right but lots of people are taking full advantage of the COVID scare to make people pay so this is part of it IMO. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:07:33 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By noFoTeeneR: Good suing it sounds like. I doubt it. You are only getting the plaintiff’s side of the story. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:13:21 AM EDT
[#35]
If she wanted to work she would get a job at one of the thousands of other grocery stores that are hiring
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:18:59 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: If she wanted to work she would get a job at one of the thousands of other grocery stores that are hiring Once an issue goes to Federal court, it's usually far beyond the original issue at that point. I'm sure she'll get another job, but the complaint still stands and businesses will be following it very closely...If you google that case name, it is already cited all over employment law blogs and websites discussing it. BTW, she doesn't work in a store, but a distribution center called "Peyton" which is basically Kroger's "Amazon engulfment center" for their retail stores. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:22:56 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Johnnyutah: Company: Stay Home if you're sick!!! Employee: I'm sick and have a doctors note Company: Fuck you, you're fired. Coming soon to more areas around the country. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:26:07 AM EDT
[#38]
Is Kroger no longer a union shop?
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:31:41 AM EDT
[#39]
Was that wrong?
Should I not have done that? Kroger, you're gonna have to pay. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:32:42 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1057: Is Kroger no longer a union shop? Kroger is union...My wife was a manager with them for over 20 years. However, this is the Peyton warehouse division and I don't think they are UFCW like the stores are. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:32:43 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Skullsoldier: I do a good deal of employment work for a number of these restraint chains. More likely than not, she was not fired, but temporarily laid off or told not to report to work until she had quarantined for 14 days and tests negative. The spin is that she’s not eligible for pay, which is tantamount to termination. The fact is that she probably is eligible to return when cleared. We are seeing allot of these claims...person wasn’t actually fired, but couldn’t report to work so they sue for de facto termination. Want to emphasize what is probably the reality of the situation. Kroger likely said "If you're out sick for 2 weeks, you're not paid for 2 weeks. Come back when you're healthy" Not saying I agree with it, even more so when you think she likely became ill because of her job, but that's life |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:35:15 AM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:35:30 AM EDT
[#43]
If a medical layoff was an option that would be a better idea. Or just wait two weeks and let her come back.
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:37:46 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EmptyMinutes: Want to emphasize what is probably the reality of the situation. Kroger likely said "If you're out sick for 2 weeks, you're not paid for 2 weeks. Come back when you're healthy" Not saying I agree with it, even more so when you think she likely became ill because of her job, but that's life You didn't read the complaint...She states that Kroger maxed her out on attendance points while she was out on sick leave and then terminated her for absenteeism. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:39:30 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sevensteps: Kroger is union...My wife was a manager with them for over 20 years. However, this is the Peyton warehouse division and I don't think they are UFCW like the stores are. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sevensteps: Originally Posted By 1057: Is Kroger no longer a union shop? Kroger is union...My wife was a manager with them for over 20 years. However, this is the Peyton warehouse division and I don't think they are UFCW like the stores are. Gotcha, thank you |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:44:20 AM EDT
[#46]
Good thing she doesn't work for me. I would've told her, in no uncertain terms, that even THINKING about being concerned about COVID, if communicated to me, would be grounds for sending her home immediately.*
If she produced a doctors note with a time frame of return to duty on it, she would still be told to stay home* In fact ALL employees were assigned to split shifts, working only half of their normal hours, no exceptions!* (*with full pay and benefits, for the duration of some indeterminate pandemic period(?), per HR, DOD civilian employees) |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:44:57 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Completely off topic, but Publix, at least here, sucks. They have inferior produce and meat at a much more expensive price point. Everything is more expensive for that matter. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:46:41 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sevensteps: You didn't read the complaint...She states that Kroger maxed her out on attendance points while she was out on sick leave and then terminated her for absenteeism. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sevensteps: Originally Posted By EmptyMinutes: Want to emphasize what is probably the reality of the situation. Kroger likely said "If you're out sick for 2 weeks, you're not paid for 2 weeks. Come back when you're healthy" Not saying I agree with it, even more so when you think she likely became ill because of her job, but that's life You didn't read the complaint...She states that Kroger maxed her out on attendance points while she was out on sick leave and then terminated her for absenteeism. The cynic in me says she's pulled some kind of "I'm sick, I can't work" bullshit before which made her a target If she was truly terminated for being out for suspected COVID, with no other mitigating factors, then Kroger is almost a big a asshoe as China |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:46:57 AM EDT
[#49]
I'm not buying the story. Kroger has a lot to lose if they are being stupid, and all of us (I don't work at Kroger) have been working hard to ensure that we don't lose good people in our organizations.
I might be wrong about this, but I suspect it is a case of her being a problem employee, and she didn't follow through on her responsibilities as is the case so often for people like this. |
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Posted: 5/8/2020 11:49:40 AM EDT
[#50]
Sounds like not a whole lot has changed with the Kroger Co. since I worked there in HS.
They were brutal toward employees. |
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