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Link Posted: 4/28/2011 9:14:20 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.


"Kansas law allows the use of force against a burglary suspect inside a home or workplace. In this case, deputies said the suspects were already outside."

Once someone is fleeing, unless you can articulate otherwise, they are no longer considered a threat.
Had he shot them all inside the house, it's likely nothing would have come of it.


i disagree. unless they throw down their weapon(if they are armed) then they are just as much of a threat.
they can stop running at any time and return fire...
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 9:18:53 AM EDT
Quoted:
four people on his property.  at least one having been inside his home already. thats enough to cause fear for your life.   I wouldn't convict him.


Good shoot IMO.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 9:24:25 AM EDT
Quoted:
Yoder says the homeowner grabbed a rifle, chased the burglar outside and opened fire on a group of about four people.




Not smart to shoot at fleeing suspects.


This is what happened to Tony Martin in the UK. He is the farmer that is regularly brought up in Brit Bash threads.  He shot two burglars in the back as they fled. He served less than 4 years of his sentence after killing one and maiming the other and is now free.  

In the eyes of the law he shot them as they ran away after they no longer posed a threat, which was his mistake.   If he'd shot them as they were attacking him he'd probably have ben acquited.

Link Posted: 4/28/2011 9:26:57 AM EDT
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.


"Kansas law allows the use of force against a burglary suspect inside a home or workplace. In this case, deputies said the suspects were already outside."

Once someone is fleeing, unless you can articulate otherwise, they are no longer considered a threat.
Had he shot them all inside the house, it's likely nothing would have come of it.


Like I said, it''s sad when someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they run away, even if they are across the street.

I understand the law. I am commenting on the law.

If I'm your neighbor across the street, I don't want you putting rounds into my home as you fire a rifle on the run, chasing someone who is no longer a threat.

I'm a STRONG supporter of stand your ground laws, but stand your ground doesn't mean pursue them into the street and open fire.
 


That's two separate things.  If he chases them outside and shoots them, who gives a shit?  If he actually hits your house that's another story.

Allowing people to shoot at fleeing suspects seems like a poor policy, and would almost certainly create situations that in turn, embolden the anti gun crowd to further restrict our rights.

Again, in your own home, you should be allowed to shoot any intruder who has made unlawful entry, but once that person is fleeing from your property its a whole different situation.
 


Yes, lets concern ourselves with what people who despise us think.

Have some of you not realized that these people are going to be against us no matter what?

Every inch we give up they will gladly take and ask for more.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 9:38:26 AM EDT
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.


"Kansas law allows the use of force against a burglary suspect inside a home or workplace. In this case, deputies said the suspects were already outside."

Once someone is fleeing, unless you can articulate otherwise, they are no longer considered a threat.
Had he shot them all inside the house, it's likely nothing would have come of it.


Like I said, it''s sad when someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they run away, even if they are across the street.

I understand the law. I am commenting on the law.

If I'm your neighbor across the street, I don't want you putting rounds into my home as you fire a rifle on the run, chasing someone who is no longer a threat.

I'm a STRONG supporter of stand your ground laws, but stand your ground doesn't mean pursue them into the street and open fire.
 


Know your target and what's behind it.

ETA: nobody is arguing the law. The fact of the matter is from a practical standpoint, many times, especially when gang members are involved, they come back to teach you a lesson.

I will never ever be on a jury, but I would not convict that guy.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 9:48:57 AM EDT
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.


Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.

Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.


Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.


Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.

If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.


 

Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.

This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.

Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.

And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:07:09 PM EDT





Quoted:





Quoted:
Quoted:




Quoted:




Quoted:


It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.






Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.





Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.






Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.








Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.





If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.
 



Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.





This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.





Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.





And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.


Its hard to stop laughing when you post stuff like this.  I don't have an AO, I'm not in the military, I have a house.





What you are really saying here is that burglary should be a capital crime, and it should be legal to pursue the burglars out of your home, into the world, and chase them down shooting.





You Sir, have seen way too many action movies.





My only concern is protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones (and anyone in my home as a guest).  If you want to kill a man over property, and then spend the next six years in court going broke when the scumbag's family sues you for millions in civil procedings, go right ahead.
 
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:08:56 PM EDT
unfortunately bad shoot...    



I vote for misdemeanor  w fine or 24hrs jail..   since it;s been 24hrs time is already served  
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:12:25 PM EDT
Jury nullification for the win.
Of course they'll stack the jury with idiots.
Why is that cops get to chase a perp to infinity if they like and still get the legal authority to shoot as the suspect is fleeing

but a homeowner does not?

Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:14:17 PM EDT
Quoted:
unfortunately bad shoot...    

I vote for misdemeanor  w fine or 24hrs jail..   since it;s been 24hrs time is already served  


Legally?  Sure.

Ethically?   I'd be ok with it if he'd wasted them.  Less predators for the decent folk to worry about.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:16:26 PM EDT
A few years ago, when my son was about 8, I was explaining some of the deadly force laws to him. I said, "If they're in our house, I am allowed to use deadly force. If they run outside and then I shoot them, I'd be breaking the law...and I'd end up in big trouble."

My son was silent for a moment and then said, "Well, we could bury them."
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:20:44 PM EDT
There are some very certain (specific, not guaranteed) circumstances that must be met in order to shoot someone who is fleeing.
This does not meet those criteria
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:23:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:31:15 PM EDT
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.


Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.

Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.


Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.


Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.

If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.


 

Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.

This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.

Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.

And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.
Its hard to stop laughing when you post stuff like this.  I don't have an AO, I'm not in the military, I have a house.

What you are really saying here is that burglary should be a capital crime, and it should be legal to pursue the burglars out of your home, into the world, and chase them down shooting.

You Sir, have seen way too many action movies.

My only concern is protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones (and anyone in my home as a guest).  If you want to kill a man over property, and then spend the next six years in court going broke when the scumbag's family sues you for millions in civil procedings, go right ahead.



 


Bold part is true.  If someone is high on drugs in my house, idk what they are thinking or planning.  In the article posted I wouldn't have shot the people outside, but the guy that he caught in the house deserved it.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:31:19 PM EDT
dupe...
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1178138&light=
I beat Bama-Shooter to posting a new article (by almost a full day even) and it gets pushed out the cue before anyone sees it.
Check out the comments on the bottom of the  Wichita Eagle report though...it is a change from the stuff you normally see...
http://www.kansas.com/2011/04/26/1822709/homeowner-jailed-after-shooting.html#ixzz1KfIQmPtx
 
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:33:35 PM EDT


Sounds like somebody needs to be a little faster on the trigger next time.


Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:37:08 PM EDT
Quoted:
Yoder says the homeowner grabbed a rifle, chased the burglar outside and opened fire on a group of about four people.




Not smart to shoot at fleeing suspects.


This. Even if they deserve it you're putting yourself in serious shit.
Link Posted: 4/28/2011 1:41:29 PM EDT



Quoted:



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Quoted:


Quoted:




Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.




Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.



Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.




Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.





Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.



If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.





 


Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.



This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.



Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.



And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.

Its hard to stop laughing when you post stuff like this.  I don't have an AO, I'm not in the military, I have a house.



What you are really saying here is that burglary should be a capital crime, and it should be legal to pursue the burglars out of your home, into the world, and chase them down shooting.



You Sir, have seen way too many action movies.



My only concern is protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones (and anyone in my home as a guest).  If you want to kill a man over property, and then spend the next six years in court going broke when the scumbag's family sues you for millions in civil procedings, go right ahead.
 




Bold part is true.  If someone is high on drugs in my house, idk what they are thinking or planning.  In the article posted I wouldn't have shot the people outside, but the guy that he caught in the house deserved it.



I actually agree that home invasion should be a much more serious crime.  I'm not sure how I feel about capital punishment, given how many people on death row have been exonerated with recent advances in forensic technology, but I do agree that if you invade someone's home with a weapon, you should lose your freedom permanently.



However, I also know people who have gotten smashed and walked into the wrong apartment on accident, and even passed out on someone else's couch, thinking it was their own place.  In the case in question, the stupid homeowner didn't have their doors locked, and the drunk person was a close friend of mine.



I'm not being an apologist for drunk idiots doing drunk idiot things, but this is a case where I would absolutely not agree that it would be ok to shoot a person who has tresspassed into your home.  



If we could carefully define home invasion, and what that entails I could probably get on board with making that a much much more serious offense.



But the general tone of arfcom seems to be that it should be legal to shoot someone in the back as they run from your home after a failed break-in, and I am simply not willing to go quite that far.



We have a legal system with due process of law, I am not in favor of turning the average homeowner into judge, jury, and executioner when the threat is no longer viable because the scumbag is running away.





 
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 2:30:15 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
unfortunately bad shoot...    

I vote for misdemeanor  w fine or 24hrs jail..   since it;s been 24hrs time is already served  


Legally?  Sure.

Ethically?   I'd be ok with it if he'd wasted them.  Less predators for the decent folk to worry about.


10 points for Griffindor
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 2:33:51 AM EDT
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.


Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.

Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.


Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.


Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.

If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.


 

Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.

This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.

Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.

And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.
Its hard to stop laughing when you post stuff like this.  I don't have an AO, I'm not in the military, I have a house.

What you are really saying here is that burglary should be a capital crime, and it should be legal to pursue the burglars out of your home, into the world, and chase them down shooting.

You Sir, have seen way too many action movies.

My only concern is protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones (and anyone in my home as a guest).  If you want to kill a man over property, and then spend the next six years in court going broke when the scumbag's family sues you for millions in civil procedings, go right ahead.



 


you are missing the point.

We all know what self defense law is and we are all well aware of civil legal ramifications.

We are talking about what should be allowed.

The fact that you are forgetting, is that many of these scum will wait until you are at work, and then attack your house again for revenge when nobody is home but your wife and kids. It doesn't really end when he runs out your front door. Many times, it is just beginning.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 2:40:39 AM EDT
He is screwed, they fled and he pursued them.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 2:42:58 AM EDT
Quoted:
Why is that cops get to chase a perp to infinity if they like and still get the legal authority to shoot as the suspect is fleeing
but a homeowner does not?


In those cases, and its not as universal as you seem to assume...its because catching bad guys is seen as a function of law enforcement.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 2:45:09 AM EDT



Quoted:



Quoted:

He must have thought they were going to come back and he feared for his life.




They probably told him that.  As a matter of fact, I'm fairly certainly that's exactly what I heard them say––from here.  


I'm a little bit East of you and I could have sworn I heard it too.  





 
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 2:46:41 AM EDT
Why is that cops get to chase a perp to infinity if they like and still get the legal authority to shoot as the suspect is fleeing
but a homeowner does not?




You haven't looked into many department's chase policies have you? Where do you guys get this stuff?
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 3:51:21 AM EDT
Quoted:
Yoder says the homeowner grabbed a rifle, chased the burglar outside and opened fire on a group of about four people.




Not smart to shoot at fleeing suspects.


x
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 3:57:09 AM EDT
Quoted:
Info is limited and I don't claim to know Kansas law, but it certainly looks like a bad shoot.


This.

Chased the person outside, and the other people were already outside... seems like a bad shoot.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 3:57:52 AM EDT
Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.


You use a gun to stop a threat.  A fleeing person is not a threat.  They stopped being a threat when they tucked tail and started running.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 4:08:11 AM EDT
In Texas at night you can shoot someone fleeing if you think there is no other way for you to retreive your stuff.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 4:29:32 AM EDT





Quoted:





Quoted:


It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.






You use a gun to stop a threat.  A fleeing person is not a threat.  They stopped being a threat when they tucked tail and started running.



What if they were fleeing to their car to get a gun?  The people outside?  How do you know his buddies weren't armed waiting for you outside?





Maybe not the most likely scenario, but not out of the realm of impossibility.  In that type of a situation it might be pretty hard to shut down the adrenaline and make such decisions.





Ultimately this guy isn't the one who created the situation, and expecting someone to make 100% rational decisions and judge who is a threat and who isn't a 3 a.m. is asking a lot IMO.





Do some of you guys really think he wanted to shoot these assholes?
 
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 4:50:05 AM EDT
Quoted:

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Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.


Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.

Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.


Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.


Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.

If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.


 

Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.

This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.

Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.

And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.
Its hard to stop laughing when you post stuff like this.  I don't have an AO, I'm not in the military, I have a house.

What you are really saying here is that burglary should be a capital crime, and it should be legal to pursue the burglars out of your home, into the world, and chase them down shooting.

You Sir, have seen way too many action movies.

My only concern is protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones (and anyone in my home as a guest).  If you want to kill a man over property, and then spend the next six years in court going broke when the scumbag's family sues you for millions in civil procedings, go right ahead.



 


Bold part is true.  If someone is high on drugs in my house, idk what they are thinking or planning.  In the article posted I wouldn't have shot the people outside, but the guy that he caught in the house deserved it.

I actually agree that home invasion should be a much more serious crime.  I'm not sure how I feel about capital punishment, given how many people on death row have been exonerated with recent advances in forensic technology, but I do agree that if you invade someone's home with a weapon, you should lose your freedom permanently.

However, I also know people who have gotten smashed and walked into the wrong apartment on accident, and even passed out on someone else's couch, thinking it was their own place.  In the case in question, the stupid homeowner didn't have their doors locked, and the drunk person was a close friend of mine.

I'm not being an apologist for drunk idiots doing drunk idiot things, but this is a case where I would absolutely not agree that it would be ok to shoot a person who has tresspassed into your home.  

If we could carefully define home invasion, and what that entails I could probably get on board with making that a much much more serious offense.

But the general tone of arfcom seems to be that it should be legal to shoot someone in the back as they run from your home after a failed break-in, and I am simply not willing to go quite that far.

We have a legal system with due process of law, I am not in favor of turning the average homeowner into judge, jury, and executioner when the threat is no longer viable because the scumbag is running away.

 


I see this as being a few distinct stages and if his lawyer is smart and he is smart enough to keep his mouth shut he has a valid argument.

1.)  His home was broken into while he was there, which means that the person entering knew that there was a good chance that they would have to threaten or kill whomever was there for their purposes.
2.)  Upon waking up the homeowner armed himself and chased the burglar from his home.
     –– Is it over here?  What do you do at this point? Keep pursuing?  Check to see if they are running around back?  If you stop now you give up momentum and you may well find yourself reacting rather than making them react.  
     –– Regardless in the heat of the moment he runs outside
3.)  Once outside he ran into three more accomplices
     –– Anyone in their right mind would now be (if not already) seriously in fear of their life, firearms or not.
4.)  At this point I would claim disparity of force and say that I reacted because I knew in that moment that if I did not that I would or could be overwhelmed and killed.

Sadly, the law does not factor in that most people do not train in any way for circumstances such as these and because of that are prone to acting in the heat of the moment and following nature's law.  


Link Posted: 4/29/2011 4:53:46 AM EDT
When was the last time you saw the police chase someone while shooting at them?
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 6:27:38 AM EDT
Quoted:
Why is that cops get to chase a perp to infinity if they like and still get the legal authority to shoot as the suspect is fleeing
but a homeowner does not?




You haven't looked into many department's chase policies have you? Where do you guys get this stuff?




when do you think departmental policies became laws? Just because its policy not to chase doesnt mean its illegal. Where do you guys get this stuff?
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 6:49:54 AM EDT



Quoted:



Quoted:




Quoted:


Quoted:




Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.




Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.



Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.




Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.





Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.



If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.





 


Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.



This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.



Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.



And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.

Its hard to stop laughing when you post stuff like this.  I don't have an AO, I'm not in the military, I have a house.



What you are really saying here is that burglary should be a capital crime, and it should be legal to pursue the burglars out of your home, into the world, and chase them down shooting.



You Sir, have seen way too many action movies.



My only concern is protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones (and anyone in my home as a guest).  If you want to kill a man over property, and then spend the next six years in court going broke when the scumbag's family sues you for millions in civil procedings, go right ahead.
 




you are missing the point.



We all know what self defense law is and we are all well aware of civil legal ramifications.



We are talking about what should be allowed.



The fact that you are forgetting, is that many of these scum will wait until you are at work, and then attack your house again for revenge when nobody is home but your wife and kids. It doesn't really end when he runs out your front door. Many times, it is just beginning.


Fair enough, I agree that is basically the worst case scenario for sure.



It seems the law really doesn't quite cover this scenario very well at all, if he is determined to come back for some kind of misguided revenge, then the homeowner is in a very bad situation.



 
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 6:52:45 AM EDT




Quoted:

Ask them to leave nicely. Don't hurt them.
I know you said that tounge-in-cheek, but...(and it burns my ass that you can't just shoot people who need shootin')



You'll be time, money and grief ahead if they would leave when asked rather than shooting them. You might be out a door jam repair or maybe some muddy foot prints to clean up from the carpet.



If you shoot them, there is likely to be a huge mess of biohazard to clean up and then you have to deal with the cops. Odds are, around here, you'll get a sympathetic cop and if you were on solid ground in the shooting, you'll not even be taken to the station, much less charged....probably keep your gun too.



However, in a lot of places, OR if you are unlucky enough to get an asshole cop, or there's a bit of grey area surrounding the shoot, you get to pay for a lawyer, time off work, see the jail cell, possibly meet some unfriendly folks, have your gun confiscated for however long they feel like keeping it etc etc.



It's just like any other fight. If I can avoid it, I will. If it's some punks there to steal a TV, let them walk if they will, or hold them for cops, if they'll stay. If they're armed, they're dead.



Link Posted: 4/29/2011 6:54:33 AM EDT



Quoted:











It's just like any other fight. If I can avoid it, I will. If it's some punks there to steal a TV, let them walk if they will, or hold them for cops, if they'll stay. If they're armed, they're dead.



Precisely my view on this issue as well.





 
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 7:00:45 AM EDT
Quoted:
He's fucked.


Should have stayed inside and called the police.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 7:27:45 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why is that cops get to chase a perp to infinity if they like and still get the legal authority to shoot as the suspect is fleeing
but a homeowner does not?


You haven't looked into many department's chase policies have you? Where do you guys get this stuff?


When do you think departmental policies became laws? Just because its policy not to chase doesn't mean its illegal. Where do you guys get this stuff?


I was referring to the "cops get to chase a perp to infinity if they like" part.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 7:33:56 AM EDT
All this bickering is pointless.

the fact of the matter is just this-

after you shoot somebody, there are going to be questions asked.

most police and citizens are sympathetic to homeowners protecting themselves,

BUT if you cannot come up with clearly reasonable answers to all the questions, the machinery of the law is going to kick in

the legal system is a machine. It runs on tax money and the people working in it get paid whether you go to jail or go free.

You understand?  the government actually will be paying people to legally fuck up your life in a risk-free environment.

once you become entangled in the machinery, you're fucked.  YOU ARE FUCKED.

So if you're going to shoot somebody, you'd better have a damn good reason.

the above is just an statement of the facts that should be obvious to everybody
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 7:37:48 AM EDT
Kansas State Rifle Association is throwing their support behind the shooter.



http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1102657032088-36/Press+Release+Heimerman+Case+04-28-11.pdf



I'm definitely curious to see where this goes now.
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 7:43:33 AM EDT
Quoted:
Here, let me sum up how this thread is going to play out based on past examples -


ARFCOM GD COMMANDO:  If someone steals my newspaper, I'll shoot to kill.  It's the law.  I'll stack repo men 10 feet high, how dare they try to do their legally and morally justifiable work.  Trick-or-treaters get a bean bag round, that's my only concession. Little snot nosed punks looking for a hand-out.

NON CRAZY GUY:  That would be liable to ruin your life, maybe put you in jail, and it's un-Christian and immoral right on the face of it.  Even just from a practical aspect, for your own best interests, you really need to be on the side of the angels when you start blasting people.

ARFCOM GD COMMANDO: Fuck you, you communist UN one-worlder yankee.  The problem with this country is not enough people executing each other under questionable circumstances.  Chasing down people and killing them makes for good public relations and news articles for all gun owners.



HA!

Shouldn't this be the end of the thread?

Link Posted: 4/29/2011 7:46:19 AM EDT
God bless Texas
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 7:46:36 AM EDT
In Texas that might have been a good shoot
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 7:48:30 AM EDT
would i take the shot? no

do i think it "should" be a good shot? yes
Link Posted: 4/29/2011 8:09:01 AM EDT
Dude ran out after them only to run in 4...?  Hell yeah I would fire!!!!  Then say "I was in Fear for the life of myself and family"
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 5:06:49 AM EDT


CHARGES HAVE BEEN DROPPED







The prosecutor has dropped charges against the home owner, saying the county does not have enough to get a conviction.....





http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/Charges-dropped-against-homeowner-in-Milton/ROQJBRwoekqVjlI3dXlffw.cspx





Now the next phase for the home owner is the civil suit. Kansas has the Castle Doctrine, but it has never gone to court. The fact that the perps were shot outside the house may also muddy the waters.  


Link Posted: 4/30/2011 5:46:21 AM EDT
Quoted:
CHARGES HAVE BEEN DROPPED



The prosecutor has dropped charges against the home owner, saying the county does not have enough to get a conviction.....


http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/Charges-dropped-against-homeowner-in-Milton/ROQJBRwoekqVjlI3dXlffw.cspx


Now the next phase for the home owner is the civil suit. Kansas has the Castle Doctrine, but it has never gone to court. The fact that the perps were shot outside the house may also muddy the waters.  




That's good news
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 5:53:16 AM EDT
His home had been burglarized the night before as well as earlier in the week.  His family tells KSN he lost around $30,000 in the previous burglaries.


Here is some new info.

So they just kept coming back. Stealing $30K wasn't enough. This was not an isolated incident and I would assume if they kept coming back they meant to do harm.

I say good shoot.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 6:00:40 AM EDT
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.


"Kansas law allows the use of force against a burglary suspect inside a home or workplace. In this case, deputies said the suspects were already outside."

Once someone is fleeing, unless you can articulate otherwise, they are no longer considered a threat.
Had he shot them all inside the house, it's likely nothing would have come of it.


Like I said, it''s sad when someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they run away, even if they are across the street.

I understand the law. I am commenting on the law.

If I'm your neighbor across the street, I don't want you putting rounds into my home as you fire a rifle on the run, chasing someone who is no longer a threat.

I'm a STRONG supporter of stand your ground laws, but stand your ground doesn't mean pursue them into the street and open fire.
 


That's two separate things.  If he chases them outside and shoots them, who gives a shit?  If he actually hits your house that's another story.

Allowing people to shoot at fleeing suspects seems like a poor policy, and would almost certainly create situations that in turn, embolden the anti gun crowd to further restrict our rights.

Again, in your own home, you should be allowed to shoot any intruder who has made unlawful entry, but once that person is fleeing from your property its a whole different situation.
 


House and home are 2 different things in my opinion.  House is the dwelling.  Home is the entire property.  If I was on the KS jury for this case, I'd vote not guilty.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 6:18:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 6:27:01 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.


"Kansas law allows the use of force against a burglary suspect inside a home or workplace. In this case, deputies said the suspects were already outside."

Once someone is fleeing, unless you can articulate otherwise, they are no longer considered a threat.
Had he shot them all inside the house, it's likely nothing would have come of it.


And there it is.



You chase 2 guys out, and are now facing 4. I would still be in fear for my life.

Good shoot.
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