Kansas homeowner accused of shooting intruders - homeowner arrested - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Kansas homeowner accused of shooting intruders - homeowner arrested (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 4/28/2011 9:14:20 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

"Kansas law allows the use of force against a burglary suspect inside a home or workplace. In this case, deputies said the suspects were already outside."

Once someone is fleeing, unless you can articulate otherwise, they are no longer considered a threat.
Had he shot them all inside the house, it's likely nothing would have come of it.

i disagree. unless they throw down their weapon(if they are armed) then they are just as much of a threat.
they can stop running at any time and return fire...

Posted: 4/28/2011 9:18:53 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
four people on his property. at least one having been inside his home already. thats enough to cause fear for your life. I wouldn't convict him.

Good shoot IMO.

Posted: 4/28/2011 9:24:25 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Yoder says the homeowner grabbed a rifle, chased the burglar outside and opened fire on a group of about four people.

Not smart to shoot at fleeing suspects.

This is what happened to Tony Martin in the UK. He is the farmer that is regularly brought up in Brit Bash threads. He shot two burglars in the back as they fled. He served less than 4 years of his sentence after killing one and maiming the other and is now free.

In the eyes of the law he shot them as they ran away after they no longer posed a threat, which was his mistake. If he'd shot them as they were attacking him he'd probably have ben acquited.

Posted: 4/28/2011 9:26:57 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

"Kansas law allows the use of force against a burglary suspect inside a home or workplace. In this case, deputies said the suspects were already outside."

Once someone is fleeing, unless you can articulate otherwise, they are no longer considered a threat.
Had he shot them all inside the house, it's likely nothing would have come of it.

Like I said, it''s sad when someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they run away, even if they are across the street.

I understand the law. I am commenting on the law.

If I'm your neighbor across the street, I don't want you putting rounds into my home as you fire a rifle on the run, chasing someone who is no longer a threat.

I'm a STRONG supporter of stand your ground laws, but stand your ground doesn't mean pursue them into the street and open fire.

That's two separate things. If he chases them outside and shoots them, who gives a shit? If he actually hits your house that's another story.

Allowing people to shoot at fleeing suspects seems like a poor policy, and would almost certainly create situations that in turn, embolden the anti gun crowd to further restrict our rights.

Again, in your own home, you should be allowed to shoot any intruder who has made unlawful entry, but once that person is fleeing from your property its a whole different situation.

Yes, lets concern ourselves with what people who despise us think.

Have some of you not realized that these people are going to be against us no matter what?

Every inch we give up they will gladly take and ask for more.

Posted: 4/28/2011 9:38:26 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

"Kansas law allows the use of force against a burglary suspect inside a home or workplace. In this case, deputies said the suspects were already outside."

Once someone is fleeing, unless you can articulate otherwise, they are no longer considered a threat.
Had he shot them all inside the house, it's likely nothing would have come of it.

Like I said, it''s sad when someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they run away, even if they are across the street.

I understand the law. I am commenting on the law.

If I'm your neighbor across the street, I don't want you putting rounds into my home as you fire a rifle on the run, chasing someone who is no longer a threat.

I'm a STRONG supporter of stand your ground laws, but stand your ground doesn't mean pursue them into the street and open fire.

Know your target and what's behind it.

ETA: nobody is arguing the law. The fact of the matter is from a practical standpoint, many times, especially when gang members are involved, they come back to teach you a lesson.

I will never ever be on a jury, but I would not convict that guy.

Posted: 4/28/2011 9:48:57 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.

Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.

Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.

Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.

If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.

Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.

This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.

Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.

And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:07:09 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.

Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.

Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.

Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.

If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.

Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.

This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.

Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.

And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.

Its hard to stop laughing when you post stuff like this. I don't have an AO, I'm not in the military, I have a house.

What you are really saying here is that burglary should be a capital crime, and it should be legal to pursue the burglars out of your home, into the world, and chase them down shooting.

You Sir, have seen way too many action movies.

My only concern is protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones (and anyone in my home as a guest). If you want to kill a man over property, and then spend the next six years in court going broke when the scumbag's family sues you for millions in civil procedings, go right ahead.

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:08:56 PM EDT

[#8]

unfortunately bad shoot...

I vote for misdemeanor w fine or 24hrs jail.. since it;s been 24hrs time is already served

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:12:25 PM EDT

[#9]

Jury nullification for the win.
Of course they'll stack the jury with idiots.
Why is that cops get to chase a perp to infinity if they like and still get the legal authority to shoot as the suspect is fleeing

but a homeowner does not?

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:14:17 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
unfortunately bad shoot...

I vote for misdemeanor w fine or 24hrs jail.. since it;s been 24hrs time is already served

Legally? Sure.

Ethically? I'd be ok with it if he'd wasted them. Less predators for the decent folk to worry about.

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:16:26 PM EDT

[#11]

A few years ago, when my son was about 8, I was explaining some of the deadly force laws to him. I said, "If they're in our house, I am allowed to use deadly force. If they run outside and then I shoot them, I'd be breaking the law...and I'd end up in big trouble."

My son was silent for a moment and then said, "Well, we could bury them."

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:20:44 PM EDT

[#12]

There are some very certain (specific, not guaranteed) circumstances that must be met in order to shoot someone who is fleeing.

This does not meet those criteria

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:23:54 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

"Kansas law allows the use of force against a burglary suspect inside a home or workplace. In this case, deputies said the suspects were already outside."

Once someone is fleeing, unless you can articulate otherwise, they are no longer considered a threat.
Had he shot them all inside the house, it's likely nothing would have come of it.

Doc beat me to it.

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:31:15 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.

Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.

Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.

Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.

If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.

Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.

This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.

Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.

And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.

Its hard to stop laughing when you post stuff like this. I don't have an AO, I'm not in the military, I have a house.

What you are really saying here is that burglary should be a capital crime, and it should be legal to pursue the burglars out of your home, into the world, and chase them down shooting.

You Sir, have seen way too many action movies.

My only concern is protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones (and anyone in my home as a guest). If you want to kill a man over property, and then spend the next six years in court going broke when the scumbag's family sues you for millions in civil procedings, go right ahead.

Bold part is true. If someone is high on drugs in my house, idk what they are thinking or planning. In the article posted I wouldn't have shot the people outside, but the guy that he caught in the house deserved it.

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:31:19 PM EDT

[#15]

dupe...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1178138&light=
I beat Bama-Shooter to posting a new article (by almost a full day even) and it gets pushed out the cue before anyone sees it.

Check out the comments on the bottom of the Wichita Eagle report though...it is a change from the stuff you normally see...
http://www.kansas.com/2011/04/26/1822709/homeowner-jailed-after-shooting.html#ixzz1KfIQmPtx

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:33:35 PM EDT

[#16]

Sounds like somebody needs to be a little faster on the trigger next time.

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:37:08 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Yoder says the homeowner grabbed a rifle, chased the burglar outside and opened fire on a group of about four people.

Not smart to shoot at fleeing suspects.

This. Even if they deserve it you're putting yourself in serious shit.

Posted: 4/28/2011 1:41:29 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.

Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.

Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.

Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.

If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.

Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.

This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.

Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.

And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.

Its hard to stop laughing when you post stuff like this. I don't have an AO, I'm not in the military, I have a house.

What you are really saying here is that burglary should be a capital crime, and it should be legal to pursue the burglars out of your home, into the world, and chase them down shooting.

You Sir, have seen way too many action movies.

My only concern is protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones (and anyone in my home as a guest). If you want to kill a man over property, and then spend the next six years in court going broke when the scumbag's family sues you for millions in civil procedings, go right ahead.

Bold part is true. If someone is high on drugs in my house, idk what they are thinking or planning. In the article posted I wouldn't have shot the people outside, but the guy that he caught in the house deserved it.

I actually agree that home invasion should be a much more serious crime. I'm not sure how I feel about capital punishment, given how many people on death row have been exonerated with recent advances in forensic technology, but I do agree that if you invade someone's home with a weapon, you should lose your freedom permanently.

However, I also know people who have gotten smashed and walked into the wrong apartment on accident, and even passed out on someone else's couch, thinking it was their own place. In the case in question, the stupid homeowner didn't have their doors locked, and the drunk person was a close friend of mine.

I'm not being an apologist for drunk idiots doing drunk idiot things, but this is a case where I would absolutely not agree that it would be ok to shoot a person who has tresspassed into your home.

If we could carefully define home invasion, and what that entails I could probably get on board with making that a much much more serious offense.

But the general tone of arfcom seems to be that it should be legal to shoot someone in the back as they run from your home after a failed break-in, and I am simply not willing to go quite that far.

We have a legal system with due process of law, I am not in favor of turning the average homeowner into judge, jury, and executioner when the threat is no longer viable because the scumbag is running away.

Posted: 4/29/2011 2:30:15 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
unfortunately bad shoot...

I vote for misdemeanor w fine or 24hrs jail.. since it;s been 24hrs time is already served

Legally? Sure.

Ethically? I'd be ok with it if he'd wasted them. Less predators for the decent folk to worry about.

10 points for Griffindor

Posted: 4/29/2011 2:33:51 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

Thats whats wrong with us today, how many times in old movies, did the homeowner chase out the bad guy shooting off his rifle, as the bad guy drove out or ran away.

Now you go to jail. Sorry but the law should be, you can chase any motherfucker to the ends of the earth if they break into your house. You know what'll happen break ins will stop.

Self defense shooting is good. Being Judge and executioner is not.

Breaking and entering is not a capital crime, so shooting a burgler as they flee would not be a just act.

If they are in your home, and pose a threat to you, that is a totally different situation.

Mind if I break into your house at 3 am while your wife and children are sound asleep, I will pose no threat.

This is bullshit, do not equate stealing bread, with breaking into somoeone house in the middle of the night. It should be close to a capital crime its a voilation of sanctity and security. Shit the founding fathers believed that the right to be secure in your persons against the government was #4 on the list. How about some fucking meth head, who doesnt give three shits and would butcher you in your sleep.

Sorry but chasing the person who was just in your house, is not being judge and jury its called securing your AO.

And if you kill the piece of shit dead in the street, and he was just in your house, well there should be no charges filed. Clean shoot IMHO.

Its hard to stop laughing when you post stuff like this. I don't have an AO, I'm not in the military, I have a house.

What you are really saying here is that burglary should be a capital crime, and it should be legal to pursue the burglars out of your home, into the world, and chase them down shooting.

You Sir, have seen way too many action movies.

My only concern is protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones (and anyone in my home as a guest). If you want to kill a man over property, and then spend the next six years in court going broke when the scumbag's family sues you for millions in civil procedings, go right ahead.

you are missing the point.

We all know what self defense law is and we are all well aware of civil legal ramifications.

We are talking about what should be allowed.

The fact that you are forgetting, is that many of these scum will wait until you are at work, and then attack your house again for revenge when nobody is home but your wife and kids. It doesn't really end when he runs out your front door. Many times, it is just beginning.

Posted: 4/29/2011 2:40:39 AM EDT

[#21]

He is screwed, they fled and he pursued them.

Posted: 4/29/2011 2:42:58 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Why is that cops get to chase a perp to infinity if they like and still get the legal authority to shoot as the suspect is fleeing
but a homeowner does not?

In those cases, and its not as universal as you seem to assume...its because catching bad guys is seen as a function of law enforcement.

Posted: 4/29/2011 2:45:09 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

He must have thought they were going to come back and he feared for his life.

They probably told him that. As a matter of fact, I'm fairly certainly that's exactly what I heard them say––from here.

I'm a little bit East of you and I could have sworn I heard it too.

Posted: 4/29/2011 2:46:41 AM EDT

[#24]

Why is that cops get to chase a perp to infinity if they like and still get the legal authority to shoot as the suspect is fleeing
but a homeowner does not?

You haven't looked into many department's chase policies have you? Where do you guys get this stuff?

Posted: 4/29/2011 3:51:21 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Yoder says the homeowner grabbed a rifle, chased the burglar outside and opened fire on a group of about four people.

Not smart to shoot at fleeing suspects.

x

Posted: 4/29/2011 3:57:09 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Info is limited and I don't claim to know Kansas law, but it certainly looks like a bad shoot.

This.

Chased the person outside, and the other people were already outside... seems like a bad shoot.

Posted: 4/29/2011 3:57:52 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

You use a gun to stop a threat. A fleeing person is not a threat. They stopped being a threat when they tucked tail and started running.

Posted: 4/29/2011 4:08:11 AM EDT

[#28]

In Texas at night you can shoot someone fleeing if you think there is no other way for you to retreive your stuff.

Posted: 4/29/2011 4:29:32 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It's sad that someone can break into your house at 3 am and you can't shoot them as they are getting away.

You use a gun to stop a threat. A fleeing person is not a threat. They stopped being a threat when they tucked tail and started running.

What if they were fleeing to their car to get a gun? The people outside? How do you know his buddies weren't armed waiting for you outside?

Maybe not the most likely scenario, but not out of the realm of impossibility. In that type of a situation it might be pretty hard to shut down the adrenaline and make such decisions.

Ultimately this guy isn't the one who created the situation, and expecting someone to make 100% rational decisions and judge who is a threat and who isn't a 3 a.m. is asking a lot IMO.

Do some of you guys really think he wanted to shoot these assholes?

Posted: 4/29/2011 4:50:05 AM EDT

[#30]