You boys realize that, while union leadership is largely pro-democrat and many (maybe even a majority ) of the rank and file members are also pro-democrat, many also are not. I can assure you that the pro-democrat union members are not the union members who post here. We all share a common interest here. We can argue until we are blue in the face about which way is better without ever conclusively proving anything. Working union is personally not my bag, but I'm not about to begrudge anyone that route. If the union agrees with you, that's great. I'm doing just fine and I enjoy what I do. I really cannot ask for anything more.

The guys who are our [b]real[/b] enemies really couldn't give a rat's behind where you work or what you do, just so long as you do not have any firearms. There is no need for this pointless bickering.

Hooray for the union!!

That's some thanks your giving us. And yeah, those items are absolutely garaunteed for everyone these days, right? No one has to fight to maintain them, do they? In today's cost cutting corporate environment, they never want to take anything back, do they?



More bullshit. Prove it, Mr McCarthy.



In [i]your[/i] opinion. Maybe in [i]your[/i] situation. I'm guessing that [i]you[/i] probably work in some nice cushy office and don't know much about or have little if any understanding anything regarding the inherent dangers of some occupations. Maybe fighting for a safe work environment and equipment isn't a big deal for a chairborne paper pusher, but it still is for steel workers, miners, railroaders, mill workers, etc.



Geez, it's gettin' deep in here.



Then why are you here attacking us over it?



Myabe you're either an arrogant asshole, backstsabber, just plain ignorant office monkey, or the kind who couldn;t hold a job with kissing serious ass. I've seen what goes on in offices and none union workplaces when people are vying to keep their jobs, too. And it sure ain't often that the rewards go to the most capable or deserving employee.



Is that really the best you can come back with? Or is the simple analogy really too much for you to grasp?

WHAT KIND OF MONEY DO YOU THINK UNION STEAMFITTERS MAKE???

I'M TEARIN' YOUR ASS UP ON THE MONEY END OF THINGS BTW (80K+)YEAR AND IF I DIDN'T DO MY
JOB RIGHT THE 1ST TIME THERE WOULD BE A GUY
TAKING MY JOB TOMMOROW!!AS A JOURNEYMAN, I
HAD TO GO TO 5YEARS OF SCHOOL TO DO WHAT I DO
AND NO ONE HAS GIVEN ME ANYTHING I DIDN'T EARN!!


WAKE UP D**KHEAD

I wonder if the union will protect people from having thier wings clipped here at AR15.com ???

I agree the unions are necessary and serve an important role in keeping employers in line. That said, I'm glad I don't belong to one!! In my field(telecom) our non-union division is about 100 times more efficient than the rest of the company, who are represented by the CWA. Granted, the company would undoubtedly be trying hard to pay a lot less money if there were no union, and wages among the hourly employees in our branch are high in an effort to keep them from going union. But to get the same task accomplished that takes our guys a day would take any other group in my company at least a week. Red tape is everywhere, and "it's not my job" is the word of the day. I prefer to be able to get a given job done myself and move on than have to wait a day or two for some slacker to to his 5 minutes worth of work. Most of the union tech's and engineers I've worked with or met have the same frustration. The union protects people based on their time, with little or no regard to their performance. At least that's the way it is in the CWA.

Wow a lot happens when a guy a posts a little something and goes to eat ornamental food.

When I said he was a Union Electrician, I meant he is an Electrician and lives in a little town called Union, WA; it's on Hood Canal off of Puget Sound - Look it up.  [;)]

OK I will help you guys out a little - I am a union member, have been for almost seven years IUOE 612 (Brother Lumpy223) I always appreciate the voting guide they send me every year - I can take it to the poll and vote opposite on every issue and candidate they endorse.  Bottom line was this guy was an uninformed idiot.

MAC-DADDY calm down, you do little to help your cause.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

DOH, hehehe...!

This thread is getting locked soon, Lol, it went from a liberal in a gun store to the Union... But, Jojo cannot stay far away from a hot topic without chiming in with his 2 cents (worth about a quarter of that due to inflation).

Unions.  Hmm, I love unions.  What better way for the employees to think they run the company.  I think most of you fail to remember that your job is never promised to you.  In fact, you wouldn't even have a job if that certain employer never created the company in the first place.

Corporations looking out only for the bottom line isn't evil, determential or even "unethical".  How long could a company that didn't care how fast it blew through cash last?  Dot-coms and their investors learned the hard way.

The allegations of low pay and inhumane working conditions are a thing of the past.  When Chile went through it's "socialism" stage, they found that they could not keep workers who were competent around.  They left to go to other countries that were either free or had better paying jobs.  They are now paid a premium for their time now, as one Chilean business man said (paraphrased) "We've found that we have to pay competent men well"

Same way with a company that thinks they can pay low and work you at an imhumane pace, you'll leave and so will alot of other people to find better paying jobs.  A company cannot survive without competent workers.   Never let someone take your money to have your "job secruity" guaranteed, let your own hard work and ethics be your spokesman.

Work is never guaranteed, it is only done with consent of both employee and employer.  The employer can only keep you on the payroll if the company stays profitable.  If going union meant making the employer pay more for labor, it means a raise in the products price.  If that product becomes to expensive to produce because of the labor, competition, shifting market etc then the company must go out of business leaving you unemployed.

Example:  In a certain, unnamed casino, Direct Payroll (before taxes, ss, unemployment tax etc) can be as high as 38% of the gross revenue.  Imagine if we went union and demanded a higher salary than our capped wages at 6.50 an hour.  It could jump to as high as 50 or 60 percent in JUST Direct Payroll.  Imagine eating out in a place where just a hamburger costs 18 dollars...

I'm not against unions, just pro-free market.  I hope this makes sense, I didn't proof read.  

[):)]
NSF  

hey ,1gunrunner sorry man I didn't mean to
get into a flame war,folks jus' got me fired up
is all. I have calmed down now. lol

All dat bitchen' fo nutin. Funny.

All my buds are uninon.  The only time I hear them complaining is:

1. When they get laid off.
2. When they are told how to vote.

They all cash their checks, pay there dues, and are hard workin' SOBs.

Help me out here, its been a while, but what did the U in USSR stand for?

(sorry, just wanted to see if MAC would go all caps on us again)

LOL

JoJo is wise beyond his years.  "I am a jedi knight............"

To be honest, while I've known that Colt uses union labor, I never even noticed the label before. I guess I always figured that being Colt and made in America were good enough. [:)]

Now this is the old board I remember! [BD]

Stereotypes suck. Slackers and goons are everywhere regardless of occupation.

No union in my field. I make way more than all union trades, but I struggled thru 5 tough years of engineering school followed by 12 years of hard work to get where I am - in a job where performance is everything and the individual RULES. I used to be a union (IBEW) electrician while working thru school - the last union job I was on was Plant Vogtle in GA for Cleveland Electric one summer. All I can say is, what a friggin' joke! We had 20 guys on my crew and most were told to hide from the yellow hard hats (GA POWER) and try to look busy EVERY DAY. "Y'all get lost, and don't get caught!" Lots of places to hide in a big nuke job, but it makes for a very long day. We hung 20 feet of cable tray in 20 days - because that was all we were ALLOWED TO DO. I quit and went to work with a 5-man non-union crew doing a Holiday Inn. We worked 60 hours a week like slaves, but I learned A LOT and made a load of dough to take back to school in the fall.

I know all union jobs ain't like that. That was my experience FWIW.

Sell him a kB glock with 100 rounds S&B ammo - package deal $1,500.

then watch the fireworks.

[}:D]

I'll address your points one at a time.

OK then ,how do you explain me then?
I'm a 3rd generation UNION Steamfitter,I own PLENTY of guns,I'm a REPUBLICAN CONSERVATIVE,
I VOTE TOO!!NRA member,Navy vet(Desert
Storm)and I'm a pro-constitutional rights
advocate.

You're a rara avis indeed.  You are not representative of your peer group, any more than Thomas Sowell or Walter Williams are typical black men.

OBVIOUSLY NONE of you are union

You got that right, brother...I have to stand on my own merit at my job.

I probably
make 3 times the money you all make anyway.

I seriously doubt that.

(you all probably think I am over paid too)

Probably...but even if you aren't, the worst thing is the 'job security' you and your ilk have imposed at gunpoint on everyone else.

I make a good honest living and take care of my family working union.

Is it honest to make more than your job/skills are worth through what amounts to legalized extortion?

I was raised this way

Mah Daddy was Union, Mah Gran'pa was Union, and I'se Union too!  So you're a third-generation looter?

I see nothing wrong with making a good living for my family

Neither do I.  But I do it on my own, without my International Brotherhood of Thugs to make sure I stay employed...if I piss my boss off, I look for a new job, I don't go crying to Papa Hoff..er. I mean Papa Union to bully my boss into accepting my substandard performance.

FUCK OFF!!!!!

And yourself as well.

if ya don't like it, COME GET SOME!!!!!

You don't have anything I need.  Typical blue-collar macho bad-ass..

UNION,WE DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!!!!!

And it costs four times as much, and the customer has no recourse if you fuck it up.

Sincerely,

QS

How short sighted can you union folks be?  Can't you read history and see that socialism *never* works?  Sure, you have it great (at the expense of the companies you are leeching off of), but eventually, those jobs of yours will go where they are paid an appropriate wage, namely mexico and other off shore places.  And, like good little socialists, you will all line up to collect your dole (that nonunion workers will have to provide for you).  All the while you will be bitching about jobs going over seas, the blinders on your eyes not allowing you to see that it was your own piggishness that forced them there.

Do you want to make big money?  Start a business, do it on your own, don't hold a gun to the guys head who did start the company to get what you want, do it yourself...oh, but wait, thats like, real work, damn, what a concept.

Unions = socialism.  Plain and utterly simple.

Socialism doesn't work, plain and simple.

Amen!!!!!!!! Amen!!!!!!!!

Your grasp  of the educational system is as good as your grasp of unions.  Why is it that the states with the poorest records educationally are also the states where teachers unions were prohibited, Texas for example?  FYI, teachers unions do not set the agenda in any school district.  The school board and state legislators that [b]you[/b] help elect do. [b]Nothing[/b] happens in a school system without those elected officials, especially the local school board, signing off on it.  Is your local district dumbed down and fvcked up?  Blame the board you elected. They approved everything from the teachers who got hired to the textbooks, to the curriculum. Figure your teachers are overpaid?  Blame the board.  They represented your interests at the bargaining table and signed a contract they helped negotiate.
When I first started teaching the salaries were so low that a first year teacher was eligible, based on income, for food stamps.  Thanks to collective bargaining, it is now a decent living.  Don't like that?  Run for school board and try to change things to how you'd prefer them to be.

You know, that's funny.  My wife and I were talking about that very thing last night.  She quit teaching and became a librarian last year because of all the PC bullshit...she suggested that I run for school board.  I'm actually considering it.  What you said makes perfect sense.

QS

I worked for 2 and a half years in a union shop and yes, I was a member...but only in order to ensure that I would receive cooperation from the rabidly pro-union people I had to work with.  With that issue taken care of, I got help when it was needed in the job.

This was a telephone company job. (BellSouth)
We did essentially the same work with similar tools and equipment on similar facilities as the TV cable installers and linemen perform, but we got two or three times the hourly wage of TV cable workers, and they got NO benefits.    That big union paycheck was nice to cash, and if BellSouth wasn't forced to give us a deal that was acceptable to us, not many of us would have been able to buy a house on TV cable repairman's wages.    But this company, BellSouth, is tied into an essential service, and the copany is so big, with so many customers who pay their phone bill every month, that they make money in spite of themselves.

I took the union paycheck and I was happy to cash it.

But the union politics sucked, and I hated the union every day.   Even more so when I eventually got canned after busting my ass and failing to meet certain technical performance standards, when others, others with LONG TERM seniority, also got abused, while a few minority slackers got NO punishment for WORSE performance than my worst month!

The union wouldn't help me when I needed it, and the company wouldn't punish a hardcore slacker who was a minority.

You bet I hate unions.   I'll never join one again under any conceivable circumstances.


What products are made in America these days? That allegedly American made car in your driveway has WHAT percentage of parts in it that were made entirely on American soil?  

Is your TV set made in America?  Your stereo? Your speakers?   Your microwave oven?  Your furniture?  Your carpet?  

How about your computer?

If not much of your stuff is made elsewhere, blame the unions.  By forcing companies to pay 18 bucks an hour to some guy who puts the wheels on every car that goes by on the auto assembly line, it makes the cost of making the product so unreasonably high (compared to the competition) that it's understandable why these companies pick up their manufacturing operations and have the product made for a THIRD of what it would cost to be made domestically, and that includes shipping.

The worker makes X dollars.  He gets a union mandated raise of 2 dollars.  The company has to maintain a profit margin or they stop operating, so they have to raise the price of the item to the buyer by 2 dollars at least.   The same worker who is making more money doesn't want to pay more for this product so he chooses to buy a cheaper, foreign made alternative.   Demand for the products he makes drops, resulting in idle hands and layoffs.

That's a very simplified explanation of the basic rule of economics:  It's a circle.  Any change at any part in the circle affects the rest.

I actually got into a long argument with a local liberal democrat (city councilmember...big whoop.) who could NOT understand this basic rule of economics.   He seemed to think that a union mandated raise could always be covered by the company and they could just absorb the additional expense without raising prices while maintaining the same profit margin.    

He must have been severely deficient in basic math skills.

So he'll probably end up working in the government's GAO (General Accounting Office).

CJ

same here, but i am still only makeing 7.00 / hr after almost five years. can't afford to live on my own, have a 9 year old vehicle, and can barely afford the ammo to feed my "habit"..

noy trying to say unions are good or bad, but i don't see hard work paying off that much around here.

If you belong to a union but don't like the union's political activities, have you tried posting a [i]Beck[/i] notice in your workplace?

you can look down on them and sneer at them, or you can try to gently educate them.
your choice, depends on your goals.

I see alot of people here blaming unions for companys moving overseas,yet when these same companys set up overseas and start sending their products back why aren't any cheaper in price? GM, Ford, Chrysler, all have plants in Mexico,,( the PT crusier is built in Mexico) and it starts at $16.000.00 since their labor is like,almost nothing (.050-.075 cents an hr) shouldnt the price for one be about $6-7000.00 can anyone say "corporate greed"? I also hear all this talk about "job security" I work as a union pipefitter, and I can assure there is no such thing, in my hall we have two types of jobs.. long term and short term, short term jobs are 21 days or less, long term jobs are 21 days or more, on a short term job you MAY get the full 21 days,(you must be sent back on the 21st day or they must make arrangements with the hall for a short, 2-3 day extension) you also might only get 2 days..and get laid off. long term jobs,you'll get 21 days or more, and hopefully make it to the end of the job, lots of times you won't, when it's close to the end of a job, the lay-offs start, but there is no"job security" you stay until the jobs done or you get layed off, then you go to the next job and it starts all over, thats our "job security" Any of you office types who kiss-ass and tattle to the boss on your coworkers, wanna come out and give it a try?  We work mostly outside, often in the rain,snow, if you think $21.00 an hr is too much, I suggest you go work out side when it's 10 degrees out for about 10-12 hrs I'll bet you'll have a diffrent opinion at the end of the day....I disagree with most union politics, I vote republican, But all one has to do is look how GM,Ford,Chrysler, treat their people in Mexico, that's what they'd do here ..if they thought you would put up with it,the only thing in that's in the way are the unions..

I'm gonna try to say this in teh most constructive way possible.

Here in America, you have the wonderful opportunity to get education / training for a new career.

It will mean working two jobs, PLUS taking classes, a non-existent social life, and may even cut into your "habit."

But ultimately, the fact that after 5 years you are still only making $7 per hour is due to your own choice.

Take the plunge, get some education, then give the middle finger salute to your dead end job, and have the $$$ to feed your habit.

its all about choices.....

Corporate greed?  It is called return on investment.  It is called adding value to the shareholders holdings.  I want the corporations that I own stock in to squeeze every last penny of waste out and to build every last cent of profit into the car that the free market will bear (Uh, free market...socialists don't get that concept...sorry).

Something that socialists don't comprehend is that *they* work for the business, not the other way around.  Every single one of these parasites have to cause more profit than their paycheck, otherwise they are dead wood and hurting the company as a whole.

I want the corporations that I am a part owner in to be as greedy as hell, that's why I invested in them.

Why do you invest in a company? For their social programs?  (great ROI there...)

Do you feel that you, as an investor (i.e., a partial owner of the company) have the ability to properly supervise the management of the companies you own?

I love reading the principles of free enterprise so eloquently expounded.

You and Hielo NAILED it (Hielo just has a bit more of an "edge" than you[:D] )

But well done, both of ya!!!!!!

As you can see Ralph, most of these folks are rich and don't give a fu*k about the working class....also they changed the subject when you mentioned working outside in extremely cold...or hot weather.


TIP:NON-Union contractors charge customer 75$ per man per hour...pay man 12$per hour and no benifits

Union contractors charge customer 75$ per hour
pay union man 23$per hour plus 8$ in insurance
and PENSION!!

 DO YOU GET A PENSION???
 DO YOU PAY YOUR EMPLOYEES A PENSION?

 


probably not.I guess you think they should
 start thier pension with what they have left
 out of thier 12$ AFTER they pay for thier    
 health insurance,rent and other bills

No, I don't invest in any companys I never said I did, But I think It's deploreable that corporate greed has runined many once profitable companys all over the country, blaming labor is a old excuse, used to cover up mismangement,embezzelment, a good example here is in Cleveland, steel mill, LTV went belly -up, yet, as they were going down,Chairman of board of directors, gets $600,000.00 as a bonus!! FOR WHAT??? Driving the company out of business?? Explain that to me!!! that's CORPORATE GREED!!!What did the investors get there ? A bag full of Shit? If you want to work in third world conditions, for third world wages, so that the owners and investors can get fithly rich from your hard work go ahead and do it. ME? I'm my own "investor", and I'm going to work for the highest wage I can get,I'm looking out for ME, if you think the "company" will take care of you, just look at Enron, upper mangement took care of their employees and investors did'nt they? Again, corporate greed at it's finest,only this time there was no one to blame but upper mangement.  

OH TY PAUL ALL SEEING AND ALL KNOWING

I WASN'T ATTACKING ANYONE, I MADE A STATEMENT
VIA MY 1ST AMMENDMENT RIGHTS

If I hear about "liberal teachers" one more time from somebody who never taught, I'm going to hurl.  You know how many anti-gun teachers I've known in the last 15 years?  None.  I've known a few fence-sitters, but no antis.  I've known a lot who were hunters and gun owners, though.  A huge majority of them were also churchgoing people.  There are teachers unions because we got tired of getting paid poverty level salaries for a job that requires a substantial investment of time and money to become certificated.
I repeat, nothing happens that your school board (that you helped elect) doesn't approve.  If your district is too PC, blame the board.  If the district is to "liberal", however you are defining the term, blame the board.
Blaming teacher unions for the state of education is like blaming labor when a company goes bust.  The board of directors bears final reponsibility for everything.  If you think teacher salaries are breaking the bank in your district, why did you elect a board of idiots who would sign such an unfavorable contract?
The "liberal teacher" is one of those rare beasts that everybody talks about, but I've yet to see one.

Way to go you got him all fired up again, Now he is gonna bust ALL CAPS in yo ass again.

How short sighted can you anti-union types be? What makes you think your jobs can't be shipped overseas as well? Boeing is already contracting out some of it's engineering work to Russian engineers and paying them a whopping $900 per month. Why shouldn't the companies I own stock in shitcan your engineering and tech jobs and give them to someone overseas who can and will perform them identically for a fraction of the cost, or an "appropriate wage"?

Unionism does not equate to socialism. Speaking and bargaining collectively are tactics that a wide variety of groups use. What do you think the NRA does? That's right, people, they collectively speak and act on our behalf. Because the voices of 4,000,000 speak louder and more forcefully than 1.

As for the automotive analogies people like to continually bring up, if you blame union labor for driving up costs and jobs out of the country, then why doesn't a Suburban built in Mexico cost less than one built in Wisconsin? The costs savings aren't passed on to you, so why do you care if the guy assembling it makes a livable wage of $20 an hour here or lives in poverty for $2 an hour in Mexico? You're not likely to see much of it reflected in your stock dividends, either.

As for my union job being moved to Mexico, good luck. It will be interesting to seem them try to move a train across the United States from within Mexico.

Lastly, who is to blame for the creation of unions in the first place and their continued existence? Us workers or the companies we work for?

Who changed the subject, it was started as a story about a liberal idiot walking into my store.  Now the picket lines should be forming.

Didntcha know doing you WHOLE POST in caps makes your point that much more valid and impressive????

[:D]

HEY I'm not trying to fight against anyone in here. I make a good living and i'm happy.
nuff' said?

sorry garandman,y'all must hate me now

Hardly.

I disagree pretty strongly with you on unions, but I don't know ya well enuf to hate [:D]

ALL CAPS = screaming. Which is poor form.

Welcome aboard.

Granted ALL unions don't do a good job,
but TRADE unions(skilled craftsmen)serve
to make the workplace a SAFER workplace and
provide workers with fair wages and benifits
that they would NORMALLY not recieve without
the collective bargining process.NRA uses the
SAME method to lobby for our gun rights.


UNITED WE BARGIAN...DIVIDED WE BEG