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Posted: 2/10/2006 9:53:16 AM EDT
[#1]
Exactly what he did, (check on the neigbor, try to make amends) right up to the point of calling the cops and turning myself in without legal reprsentation. This is a classic reason why I highly encourage everyone who owns a gun to have retained legal representation. Tj |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 9:53:54 AM EDT
[#2]
wow
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Posted: 2/10/2006 9:54:36 AM EDT
[#3]
I would have yelled "MORON LABE" and shot it out with Tempe, PD! 
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:00:10 AM EDT
[#4]
Tom, something about cops... they all say that if you should ever meet them, that they will be understanding. My past dealings with cops have all been great. The problem is, when they begin investigating you, there is almost nothing you can do or say that will improve your situation. Your silence may upset them, but it will give them no ammo.
Had I to do this over again? The only thing I would change would be what I told the police. Not the dispatch, because I would still call. I just wouldn't talk to the police. I hope they can understand, it's business. Another thing... When you are arrested everything, including business cards, is removed from your wallet. Since there are generally no phone directories available, you need to memorize your lawyers number. You are not offered an attorney until you have demonstrated indigence and a judge has ordered it. You won't see him until well after you are released on bond or OR. Don't count on having a lawyer, and don't count on being mirandized, either. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:02:51 AM EDT
[#5]
It's been done... but those people are all dead now. I just got off the phone with a family member after recieving my 30th lecture on why you shouldn't have guns in a highly populated area. Gentlemen, I lived in an area that averages one fatal shooting a month, and several GSW's requiring hospitalization. Add to that the nightly rapes and aggravated assaults, and you can begin to see why I have guns. And I'm on the nice side of town. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:16:39 AM EDT
[#6]
These Dry fire/ND threads NEVER fail to amaze me.
People will spend hundreds of dollars on a pistol, ammo, classes and all the go fast gear without spending $5-$10 on a chamber block/flag combo that lets you dry fire safely. Yes, I know none of these will let you chamber a round, and you may want to cycle snap caps for certain drills. Chamber blocks/flags will allow you to safely practice trigger squeeze and they are also great for retention drills. Pistol dry fire device another one |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:17:39 AM EDT
[#7]
Why would you feel compelled to explain to us why you have guns? |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:19:18 AM EDT
[#8]
I can't tell all the members of my family what I think, at least not right now. So I am whining on the internet. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:19:27 AM EDT
[#9]
Cuz Gun ownership is inherently bad. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:20:01 AM EDT
[#10]
Ok - lets follow that along..... You try and smooth things over.... the damage has to be repaired... you offer to pay and handle everything. She wants to at least inform the apt. complex so they can inspect. The complex mgmt insists on calling the police, and does so to report it even after your insistence. How would that change anything? I guess your point it... you would at least *try* no keep the .gov out of this? .... because once they get involved, it is out of your control? |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:23:08 AM EDT
[#11]
How would that have helped him? He said he was loading it.z |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:24:42 AM EDT
[#12]
Good advice, but if you read the post carefully, you'll see he didn't have the ND while dryfiring. He had completed the dry firing and was reloading the pistol when it ND'd for whatever reason...so these wouldn't have helped in this case... If you don't mind me asking, how exactly do you think it happened...finger on the trigger, finger slip, let the hammer down too hard...since it was a 1911 type, I assume you were putting it into Condition 1? |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:27:50 AM EDT
[#13]
Ah hah, you did learn. Now take it one step further and the first call you make from home is your retained lawyer. Let him advise you what to do and what to say. I don't depend on the police giving me a phone call. The idea is to not be booked. I've seen many NDs in apartment complexes. The only time anyone goes to jail is if someone calls the cops and even then it had to be accompanied with "Yes, I did it." or "I saw him do it." Unfortunately, most apartment NDs I've seen did end with eviction or at least asked to leave. You see bud, what you had was an accident. Yes it was dumb and you feel bad but do you really feel you are a criminal? Its not like you were drunk shooting your gun in the air. BTW, I've seen that too. Making things right is the right thing to do, setting yourself up for punishment when you really didn't have criminal intent isn't. You are not a threat to society well not at least with only one ND. Repeat it again, it may be arguable. Personaly, I'd lay off the dry firing period. You're already on record for one ND. I wouldn't take even the remotest chance on a second. Get in your car and go out in the boonies if you need practice. Tj |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:28:59 AM EDT
[#14]
I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing. Seeing as the only way that weapons discharge is when you pull the trigger, I assume that is what happened. I don't know how, or why.
Carelessness and over-comfortability is at the root here. An analogy would be running a red light. If you aren't paying attention it would be easy to do- and most of the time you will get away with it. Ocasionally, however, a car will get in your way and people will get hurt. I got lucky. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:31:17 AM EDT
[#15]
Absolutely. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:36:04 AM EDT
[#16]
Don't beat yourself up over it bud. Its one of the reason why many of us much older guys live by don't point at anything you don't want to destroy and everytime you touch the trigger expect the gun to go bang. Its not that we're this uber tactical or super safe kind of guy, its cause we know shit happens for its happened to us in other aspects in life. You have all the makings of a life responsible shooter. You've shown great character by admitting your error and trying to make admends. This is just one of those life lessons we all learn from and move on. Tj |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:38:02 AM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:40:14 AM EDT
[#18]
Thanks, gents for all your comments. Stay safe out there. I'll sign off now and talk to ya'll on Monday.
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:40:39 AM EDT
[#19]
Isn't that the county in Az that gives inmates them thar purty pink panties??
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:42:00 AM EDT
[#20]
This is exactly why I refuse to play paint ball... I do not want to get in the habit of casually dropping the hammer on somebody. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:46:16 AM EDT
[#21]
I stand corrected. This may be the wrong thing to say around here, but I do not own a 1911 and do not understand how you can have a ND while loading it. You insert a mag, chamber a round and somehow you end up with a ND? I hope you will excuse my ignorance. Anyone care to educate me how this happens? |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 10:56:03 AM EDT
[#22]
This thread is useless without the mug shots. J/K...glad all is ok.
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:09:27 AM EDT
[#23]
My AD with my Colt 1911 was that I was doing a tac reload w/ a round chambered, thumb safety off, inserting the new mag and slapping the bottom to seat it. Finger off the trigger, pointed down range.
Smack the bottom of the mag and BAM!!! Checked to see if finger was off the trigger and it was. I unloaded and went home. Shot-gunned all the internals with new parts. The problem was a worn sear/hammer. It slipped out of the sear groove when I smacked to mag. It does happen and it was an AD due to mechanical failure of parts. My buddy dropped his Kimber series 70 nose down on pavement in a parking lot and it discharged into the blacktop. He sold the gun. Didn't trust it any longer. Series 70 1911's will do this as they have no firing pin block like the series 80's. Since no one was present or injured, he packed it up and left the area. He did not turn himself in. No need to. He probably would have went to jail. He was not a criminal, he made a mistake and dropped a loaded firearm. Irresponsible, yes, but not criminal. It was in Maricopa county as well. 1911'are safe, but complicated and lots can go wrong with them. ASU should not have been charged, but it looks good in the papers and on statistic sheets come budget time. The police are not really your friend. And they wonder why they get a bad reputation. He did everything right except calling the cops first. He should have tried to resolve it without police intervention first. I dry fire all the time. But I am a chamber-checking nazi about it. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:11:36 AM EDT
[#24]
I'm not trying to hijack here, but I think I need a description of how you "administratively load" a handgun. I admit I don't understand the term, and can only find a reference to administratively loading a semi-auto shotgun.
ASU1911 was kind enough to come here and tell his story, and I would like to learn something that will help me to not make the same mistake. Someone help me out here and give me a description of administratively loading a 1911, and how you risk a ND doing so. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:13:50 AM EDT
[#25]
He is called the wallshooter because I called him that first and Robbie Leatham thought it was funny.
 Guys, he was smart to report himself. If he had tried to hide this, it would have almost certainly come out. When he checked on the neighbor (who was hiding on the floor in terror, to my understanding) she probably would have called the police. And if you are going to be the "perp", you might as well be the "person reporting" as well. It looks better to the legal system. Now...I need to fly down and sign out his YoBo pistol......only $56 at the MCSO lockup.... |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:16:09 AM EDT
[#26]
It just means he was loading it. Administrative being day to day type stuff, as opposed to the tactical reload and speed reload you practice for gunfights. If you don't touch the trigger, it's not an issue. He got sloppy and pulled the trigger. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:16:57 AM EDT
[#27]
so, if a cop has a ND, does he suffer the same consequences?
-gock fotee |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:19:31 AM EDT
[#28]
I can only guess as to what happened, but here goes. He was dry firing, possibly racking the slide dozens of times to cock the hammer between trigger pulls. He finished dry firing, immediately racking a round into the chamber. Habit took over and he pulled the trigger on a hot weapon. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:21:37 AM EDT
[#29]
Actually a few years ago a citizen was up on Endangerment charges in Maricopa county when a Bailiff or some other type of cop working in the court system touched one off. They didn't want to charge both, so they dropped the charges on the citizen. But no, do not expect that an officer would be sucked into the legal system for something like this. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:28:44 AM EDT
[#30]
What is with all these ND's? Are the liberals right about us? Is it really "Those that have, and those that will?"
Overall, you got off pretty easy. At least you were smarter, or luckier than the other tactical operators who shot their hands. Perhaps those of us who insist on manipulating guns in the house can keep a bucket of sand nearby, or an old TV, those seem to make pretty good backstops. Thanks for posting it. All of these stories do make me step back and reconsider every gun related action. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:29:28 AM EDT
[#31]
I don't think I recall anyone advocating he hide it. Its not hiding to go the neighbor and try and make amends. I advocated not calling the police on yourself until he talked or retained an attourny and following an atourny's advice. We can't all be expected to know the possible legal consequences of such an action, thus as seen the potential felony charges. Never hide or run from problems but don't invite them either. Tj |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:32:34 AM EDT
[#32]
Just checked this thread again and I can address what TJ said.
You are right in that I should have called a lawyer first, but in this case it made no difference. My lawyer thought the police report worked well for me. Actually, no single statement in the report was correct, but taken as a whole it was favorable. Although they were gunning for the felony. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:41:19 AM EDT
[#33]
 
Yep. Or you could just not squeeze the trigger.  So did your new apartment complex give you any static about your eviction from your previous apartment? For all you haters bagging on Maricopa County, let me remind you that Maricopa County is where Sgt Haab had his little dust-up with that group of illegal aliens. No one charged him. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:49:43 AM EDT
[#34]
They also told me that dry-firing is stupid
wow, I'm going have to stop RIGHT NOW everyone knows cops are the best trained, most knowledgeable, firearms toting individuals out there  |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:54:40 AM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 2/10/2006 11:54:51 AM EDT
[#36]
As I pointed out in my response, not all unintentional discharges are ND's. Some are AD's and sometimes you don't need to pull the trigger for it to fire. It is quite possible that his malfunctioned and discharged when he tapped the mag to lock it in, as mine did. I never touched the trigger.
A series 70 1911 can discharge from momentum landing on it's nose. You never need to touch the trigger for that to happen. Not all are ND's. Firearms are mechanical in nature and parts can fail or wear out. Just like not all Glocks kaboom. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:03:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Whatever you are trying to say, you are misreading my comments. This is the first time I've done this. I have been both inside and outside cabins, both in hunting and training situations, where weapons have been discharged. If you have a problem, feel free to express yourself. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:04:20 PM EDT
[#38]
While that is not what happened in my case, it is true and should be considered. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:14:43 PM EDT
[#39]
Once again, thanks for coming here and sharing your story. I never realized that you could get in that much trouble for an ND. Slapping someone with a felony is a bit harsh, then again it could have killed someone.
Now I'll check the weapon 4 times instead of 3 before pulling the trigger. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:18:09 PM EDT
[#40]
I think you handled it ok, considering...but you should have your lawyer on speed dial, and his card right behind your gun permit in your wallet. Had this happened to me, I would have done just what you did except the call would have been to my lawyer and not The Man.
You know the crowd I run with, because they're the same guys you run with. Some of 'em are cops or former cops, and they are great guys. That doesn't change the fact that when you're put in a "customer service" position with the police, they won't care who you're buddies with, and it is NEVER to your advantage to talk to them about ANYTHING. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:40:39 PM EDT
[#41]
It worked well for him too. You probably made several house payments for him.
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Posted: 2/10/2006 12:42:59 PM EDT
[#42]
Several? More than that. He was happy because he is a shooter too. His dad had an ND not too long ago, and killed the family cat. He was a little upset at how I was treated. He grew up for the system and now he fights it tooth and nail.
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Posted: 2/10/2006 4:04:38 PM EDT
[#43]
Thanks for the story. There are a few lessons in it that we can all learn from.
Glad it all worked out and nobody was hurt. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 4:54:35 PM EDT
[#44]
I stand corrected. I though he was still dry firing. |
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Posted: 2/10/2006 5:04:14 PM EDT
[#45]
were you able to exact revenge on the bird?
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Posted: 2/10/2006 6:33:43 PM EDT
[#46]
Youre a complete idiot for having an ND.
That said - it seems to me that having an accident shouldnt be a FELONY. Good gawds. Do you think that if you owned your own home that the charge would have been less? Thank goodness that the DA had sense enough to handle this in a reasonable way. I think your "punishment" was reasonable. I am sure you aer kicking yourself on the money spent. But it was a very smart idea to get a lawyer. Let this be a lesson for others. If you get in trouble - get a lawyer. This had a happy ending - but it could have been different. The poster could have served time and/or never been able to own a gun again. Anyway - glad your ok - good luck in the future! |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 5:01:52 AM EDT
[#47]
Actually bud for a cop, I imagine it really is. You see the time when we all make mistakes is when we are too confortable with something and cops carry guns 24/7. 
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Posted: 2/12/2006 3:59:30 PM EDT
[#48]
Slow at learning lessions? Just kidding, thanks for sharing your story, glad we dident have to hear about it on the news. My understanding is always call your lawyer first and never make a statement. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 4:17:27 PM EDT
[#49]
Fixed it for you. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 4:31:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Sorry man... I laughed. |
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