Quoted: Wow, im just shaking in my boots. The F14 A is a pig. The D model is much better, but cant hold a candle to the most modern F15C or F22. The mullas should just buy some damn leftover M17s from the Chinese :D

I'm not an expert at these planes, but I think the USA F14A can engage 6 different targets at different altitudes, air speeds and directions and turn away thereby help eliminate being hit by return fire becaues the AIM54 Phoenix missle has its own built-in radar.

I would have to wonder how close to Tel Aviv a properly painted (US) Iranian F-14 could get before they commited to shooting it down.  I hope their nuke program is not that far along.

Quoted: But the Iranians would be very hesitant to commit their Tomcats to actual combat, primarily because they use the Tomcats with their powerful, capable radar systems in the AWACS role.   It does a fair job at it, too.

I wonder if the the USA or Isrealis have the ability to take out one of these planes flying AWACS.

F-404's??

Try the TF-30P-414A CJ.

Quoted: All insults and joking aside,  reports are that the Iranians, with Russian assistance, HAVE managed to maintain and upgrade their Tomcats and have done a fairly good job at it.     They fly with Russian engines that are superior to the F404s??????? they came with,  their avionics are modernized and of Russian design,  and they have a good assortment of weaponry to use with them. But the Iranians would be very hesitant to commit their Tomcats to actual combat, primarily because they use the Tomcats with their powerful, capable radar systems in the AWACS role.   It does a fair job at it, too.   CJ

The USA didn't offer the F-14 to anyone EXCEPT the Shah of Iran.
No one wanted it anyways as it was TOO EXPENSIVE!

Why do you think we sold a shitload of F-5's and have sold a shitload of F-16's around the world?

The main reason it was sold was that the Shah had the money and Gruman put on a better airshow than Douglas did.

Quoted: The F-14/Phoenix system was sold to Iran for several reasons.  The F-14, because of it's, (at the time limited) role, (air to air/fleet defense), wasn't selling to our allies, and I'm sure Grumman wanted someone to sell these to besides the U.S.  The main reason it was sold to Iran, was because of continuous overflights by Soviet fighter jets of Iran.  The Phoenix system does work over land.

The USA still operates the F-14D.

Only the F-14A's have been totaly retired.

Quoted: Not very close, I doubt that the Israelies would fall for an American F14 disguise, being that the US just retired the last of them.

I wonder how a "significantly modified" lawn dart sticks in the ground?

You still need good pilots to fly the planes.  Thats why the Russians flew for the NKs in the Korean War and for the Vietnamese in the Vietnam war.  Or at least trained them.  Otherwise they will end up in the sand where they belong.   Anyone with determination and a set of balls in a MIG 29 should have at least put some hurt on their enemy forces.  But when you run away they ended up shot up or in Iran.  Look at the Argentinians. They used old A4s and Mirages to attack the Brits and got some.  

Quoted: The USA still operates the F-14D. Only the F-14A's have been totaly retired. Quoted: Not very close, I doubt that the Israelies would fall for an American F14 disguise, being that the US just retired the last of them.

I'm guessing that Israel has the latest IFF.................... somebody won't ping right........

I'm also guessing that Israel will spot the trap when the are looking at 1 or 2 F-14's that are coming from the general direction of Iran towards Israel, and they weren't expecting company.

I'm guessing that Israel has a signifigant radar and AAA capability.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm guessing that Israel has a signifigant radar and AAA capability.

The best… wall to wall HAWKS and Patriots… plus AWAC's and 100% coverage long range ground based radars.

ANdy

Migs

Quoted: Quoted: Wow, im just shaking in my boots. The F14 A is a pig. The D model is much better, but cant hold a candle to the most modern F15C or F22. The mullas should just buy some damn leftover M17s from the Chinese :D I'm not an expert at these planes, but I think the USA F14A can engage 6 different targets at different altitudes, air speeds and directions and turn away thereby help eliminate being hit by return fire becaues the AIM54 Phoenix missle has its own built-in radar.

As I recall, the Phoenixes had to be guided most of the way. They have a radar that turns on in the last seconds of flight, good for what, 10 miles? The F14 still has to fly towards the target, iluminating it, for most of it's flight. Unlike the AMRAAM, which is a true fire and forget weapon. BUT, the Phoenix has over a 100 mile range, versus 50-60 for AMRAAM. (the Sovs do have a similar weapon - I'd bet a copy, as they always do  - that has more range.

How do they have f-14s?

We sold them to the Shah of Iran.

Quoted: How do they have f-14s?

Quoted: We sold them to the Shah of Iran. Quoted: How do they have f-14s?

Yeah got that, but why the hell didn't we know better?

Quoted: Quoted: BTW, the radar in the MIG 29 is believed to be a pirated copy of the F-18's APG-65 radar, they stole the design via Canada IIRC. Jeepers! Doesn't that make you wish that Canada was a part of the Free World? We should stop employing their entertainers! Eric The(LetStrikerAndHisWifeThroughTheLinesAndThenShutItDown)Hun

Just another border we need to patrol

Oh I am having a riot today!!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wow, im just shaking in my boots. The F14 A is a pig. The D model is much better, but cant hold a candle to the most modern F15C or F22. The mullas should just buy some damn leftover M17s from the Chinese :D I'm not an expert at these planes, but I think the USA F14A can engage 6 different targets at different altitudes, air speeds and directions and turn away thereby help eliminate being hit by return fire becaues the AIM54 Phoenix missle has its own built-in radar. As I recall, the Phoenixes had to be guided most of the way. They have a radar that turns on in the last seconds of flight, good for what, 10 miles? The F14 still has to fly towards the target, iluminating it, for most of it's flight. Unlike the AMRAAM, which is a true fire and forget weapon. BUT, the Phoenix has over a 100 mile range, versus 50-60 for AMRAAM. (the Sovs do have a similar weapon - I'd bet a copy, as they always do  - that has more range.

Yep…… Vympel R-33/AA-9 Amos… aka Phoenixski



Andy

Quoted: Quoted: We sold them to the Shah of Iran. Quoted: How do they have f-14s? Yeah got that, but why the hell didn't we know better?

Nobody could predict that Carter would have been stupid enough to sell out our biggest ally in the Persian Gulf and the source of 1/3 of our imported oil at the time.

Carter's decision was a big deal back then. The Pentagon was strongly against as was most of Congress. Carter decided to, announced his decision to the country while reinforcing that he would not sell the Phoenix system with it. He later did as he is a scumbag. It was a boon to the Russians as the Iranians allowed the Russians to blueprint the plane, electronics, and weapon systems.

The US began a clandestine operation to sell spare parts that would damage the warplanes after the Shah's fall. They did this through the illegal parts market. I would guess that this drove the Iranians closer to the Russians for parts.

The Iranian F-14s are closely monitored by the Pentagon and the Isreallis... right down to as much operational status details as they can get.

BTW, one of my students that I tutored in computer science was a close relative of the Shah. I tutored him in the years of 1978 to 1980.

Whoop-te-doo. We're going to deploy the F-22 next year, and we're supposed to be scared that they're "updating" 30-year old technology? They'll all be a pile of smoking ruins within 24 hours of a war starting.

Like I said, the Shah had the money.....

The original Tomcat contract signed in 1969 covered 12 prototypes and options for 429 production aircraft at an agreed-upon fixed price.

The fixed-price contract was an innovation of the McNamara years at the Defense Department. However, a wave of high inflation hit the economies of the US and most Western nations during the early 1970s, and the price terms of the original contract soon became unworkable and Grumman started losing money on each plane it delivered to the Navy.

In March of 1971, the company asked the Navy to re-negotiate the contract. Initially, the Navy refused, but Grumman angrily retorted that the company could not continue much longer to deliver Tomcats at the promised price without going out of business.

In March of 1973 it reached a compromise with the Navy under which the first 134 production aircraft would be delivered under the original fixed price, with the price of the follow-on Tomcats being re-negotiated with the Navy. The Navy agreed to provide Grumman with a $200 million loan to keep the company going until the re-negotiated prices became effective.

This loan agreement stirred up controversy in the press, with Grumman being accused (somewhat unjustly) of turning around and investing the Navy loan it had just received in short-term government securities for a quick profit.

In August of 1974, Congress voted to terminate the Grumman loan as a result of the controversy.

However, by this time Grumman had a new customer for the Tomcat, the Shah of Iran. The Iranian state Bank Melli provided a $75 million loan to Grumman, and armed with this backing Grumman approached a consortium of US banks and was able to get a loan for the remaining $125 million, ensuring that the Tomcat program could continue.

In May of 1972, President Richard Nixon had visited Iran and the Shah had mentioned to him that MiG-25 Foxbat aircraft of the Soviet Air Force had regularly been flying unimpeded over Iranian territory. The Shah asked Nixon for equipment which could intercept these high-speed intruders, and Nixon told the Shah that he could order either the F-14 Tomcat or the F-15 Eagle.

First and only foreign country to fly the F-14 was Iran. Back in the early '70s the shah was about to buy new fighters for the Imperial Iranian Air Force. The choice was either the MDD F-15 Eagle or the Grumman F-14 Tomcat. After a competetive show and certainly a lot of talks about the pros and cons of both fighters, Iran decided to go for the F-14 Tomcat.

In August of 1973, the Shah selected the F-14 Tomcat, and the sale was approved by the US government in November of 1972. The initial order signed in January of 1974 covered 30 Tomcats, but in June 50 more were added to the contract. At the same time, the Iranian government-owned Melli Bank agreed to loan Grumman $75 million to partially make up for a US government loan of $200 to Grumman which had just been cancelled. This loan enabled Grumman to secure a further loan of $125 from a consortium of American banks, ensuring at least for the moment that the F-14 program would continue.

The Iranian Tomcat was virtually identical to the US Navy version, with only a few classified avionics items being omitted. The base site for Iranian Tomcat operations was at Isfahan. Imperial Iranian Air Force aircrews began to arrive in the USA for training in May of 1974, and shortly thereafter the first Grumman pilots arrived in Iran.

The Iranian Tomcats were fairly late on the production line, and were therefore delivered with the TF30-P-414 engine, which was much safer than the compressor-stall-prone P-412 engine. The first of 80 Tomcats arrived in Iran in January of 1976. By May of 1977, when Iran celebrated the 50th anniversary of the Royal House, 12 had been delivered. At this time, the Soviet Foxbats were still making a nuisance of themselves by flying over Iran, and the Shaw ordered live firing tests of the Phoenix to be carried out as a warning. In August of 1977, IIAF crews shot down a BQM-34E drone flying at 50,000 feet, and the Soviets took the hint and Foxbat overflights promptly ended.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wow, im just shaking in my boots. The F14 A is a pig. The D model is much better, but cant hold a candle to the most modern F15C or F22. The mullas should just buy some damn leftover M17s from the Chinese :D I'm not an expert at these planes, but I think the USA F14A can engage 6 different targets at different altitudes, air speeds and directions and turn away thereby help eliminate being hit by return fire becaues the AIM54 Phoenix missle has its own built-in radar. As I recall, the Phoenixes had to be guided most of the way. They have a radar that turns on in the last seconds of flight, good for what, 10 miles? The F14 still has to fly towards the target, iluminating it, for most of it's flight. Unlike the AMRAAM, which is a true fire and forget weapon. BUT, the Phoenix has over a 100 mile range, versus 50-60 for AMRAAM. (the Sovs do have a similar weapon - I'd bet a copy, as they always do  - that has more range.

The Phoenix does in fact need need to be given midcourse updates, but I don't know if it can modify it's search volume like the AIM-120 can do.
While the AIM-120 can be launched active off the rail, maddog is a pretty dangerous launch method.  In general, the AIM-120 is supported in some fashion before it goes pitbull.
The FSU currently have no active missiles which outperform or outrange the AIM-120, despite what FAS may or may not say.

Quoted: I wouldn't be surprised to see a picture of these and find out they were converted to coal-power... camel dung

fixed it.

ETA, the civilian US support peolpe were kicked out of Iran when the Shah was overturned. When they left, none of the F14's worked. They "mysteriously" broke and where missing small but important parts.

Quoted: Quoted: I wouldn't be surprised to see a picture of these and find out they were converted to coal-power... camel dung fixed it. ETA, the civilian US support peolpe were kicked out of Iran when the Shah was overturned. When they left, none of the F14's worked. They "mysteriously" broke and where missing small but important parts.

It is thought they also fed a screwed up program into the F14's systems computers before they left. Also, it is suggested they 'arranged' for the Iranians to be 'offered' the missing parts by Black Market operators, (who are believed to have been Mossad agents), the parts were 'defective'… well played!

ANdy

Quoted: Good for the Russians. They are supplying their future enemy with up to date military equipment and nuclear fuel. I wonder if they realize that the Iranians are the ones that helped supply the chechans with weapons, money, and training that took the school hostage.

What?  Where do you get this from?  Because they're a muslim nation?  Maybe you don't understand that the Wahabi sect hates Shias (Iran) more than any other muslim group.  The Chechens are funded by the Wahab groups.  HezbAllah is the group Iran funds in Lebannon, and HezbAllah is a Shia organization that used to be in competition with Hamaas and the P.L.O.

-m

Quoted: Quoted: Good for the Russians. They are supplying their future enemy with up to date military equipment and nuclear fuel. I wonder if they realize that the Iranians are the ones that helped supply the chechans with weapons, money, and training that took the school hostage. What?  Where do you get this from?  Because they're a muslim nation?  Maybe you don't understand that the Wahabi sect hates Shias (Iran) more than any other muslim group.  The Chechens are funded by the Wahab groups.  HezbAllah is the group Iran funds in Lebannon, and HezbAllah is a Shia organization that used to be in competition with Hamaas and the P.L.O. -m

Whether they hate each other or not doesn't matter when they have a common and bigger enemy - the US and the West. I have no doubt that the secular saddam helped bin laden's cronies, and it is a known fact that he gave money to the terrorists (their families, but this isn't any different) blowing up buses and cafes in Israel. The point is, these pigs all work together when they have a common goal, and that goal is to kill Americans/Westerners and destroy their assets. In their minds they can and will work together to make islam the dominant -backward going- force in the world, but once that happens then they will fight each other to seize power and control.

Nevermind I can't find sources to back up what I thought I remembered.

Quoted: I would have to wonder how close to Tel Aviv a properly painted (US) Iranian F-14 could get before they commited to shooting it down.  I hope their nuke program is not that far along.

Not close at all, without the right IFF codes.