Fantastic write up!

Thanks for taking the time and effort to contribute to this site.

You rock!

Kevin ""

Great write up and excellent review.

To further show how compact this rifle is, here is a pic of mine in between my 10.5 SBR with collapsed stock and my FS2000 Standard.

Oh what the hell.... lets throw in some pics of one with the Desert Tan stock and the factory optics:

What makes any of you guys think a buttstroke from an M16 will be any more effective than a buttstroke from the MSAR? I would guess that both of them would suck to get bashed over the head with. Just my opinion.

Quoted: Quoted: But you aren't one so why would you reduce the rifle's capability. Close in fighting is a strength of a long arm not a limitation. To each his or her own but I truly think a rifle that you may use to defend yourself should be of a type and shape that lends itself well to close in fighting. I am not Rambo talking or trying to be an ass, I appreciate a fine rifle and it seems to have some great qualities. I just realize that there is in fact a reason why we trained for it in the Marine Corps. There are in fact instances where a bad guy may need a tune up. Hell even the stupid flash suppressor on my AR is pointish and called an impact weapon. Not by my design or specific choice but it seems like a good idea to me. I think the type and shape of this rifle does lend itself well to close in fighting.  I think you and I seem to have very different definitions of what that means, and its ok to disagree about it.  For what its worth, I'm really enjoying this conversation. I have a problem with "buttstroking" because it requires me to turn the rifle around and point the business end at myself while deliberately impacting the stock as hard as possible on a hard surface (which is hopefully your opponent's skull, but might be a brick wall for example if you miss).  Does anyone else see a problem with doing that with a potentially loaded rifle?  I know young Marines don't, but they also charge into fixed machinegun fire on command. What I've been taught (and I wasn't ever a Marine so go ahead and call me out on it, but you live in CA so you need your head examined anyway) is that if someone tries to grab your rifle from you, the proper response is to keep control of the rifle using the same grip as you had before, and violently strike them in the chest with the muzzle end (which hurts like a bitch even compared to the buttstroke, because you have the same force being imparted through a smaller surface area now regardless of what shape your flash hider is) while pulling the trigger and sending a round through the impact area at point blank range. Even as a civilian I believe this is a better technique than "buttstroking".  Since an attempted gun grab is lethal force, you must respond in kind.  Why point the barrel at yourself?  Why put the rifle in an orientation whereby an enemy can grab the part with the trigger if he dodges your strike?  Maybe if I'd been a Marine line instructor in the buttstroking class I'd understand better, but as a puke civilian I just don't.

Quoted: Isn't this great, Duke? Not only do you get to share the joy of going to all the trouble to write a long post with lots of pics. But you also have the joy of having some folks argue with you about what you post, as if they actually went to all the trouble of getting off their butts and shooting and taking pictures and posting about them. Some folks do, other folks argue. Ain't this great?!!!

Small point of fact, I never argued or even mentioned what he posted about.  I am not arguing I stated an opinion and did it in a nice way until an unwarranted response was made by the OP. It was a discussion on the rifle and my personal opinion. I assume we are still allowed to have those pesky things.  

Had his response not been insulting this would be over with, just lil ole me voicing my opinion on a rifle type. Had he understood my criticism is geared towards rifles of this type and not him this would have gone no where. If he had not taken my opinion as a personal insult to his cute lil rifle we'd have moved on.

BTW the, "some do, so argue" comment is priceless. I guess he was saying you do since having your assistant take pictures is more doing than 14 very successful yrs in the Marine Corps which was ended unfortunately with a catastropic injury. That was probably my fault anyhow. I mean we Marines will stupidly attack a machine gun bunker right?

Well since you enjoy this so much.

What you were taught sounds interesting. I especially like that they clarify that it is lethal force so you can now go for it so to speak. I mean how would you know that is lethal force unless the kind man in the ball cap told you? My training was a bit different. As you can imagine. I guess if weapon retention were the only thing to worry about you might have a point.

Duke you are correct in what you described is in fact a tactic. But it is not the end all be all tactic and rifle drills have had buttstrokes in them for a long time and the barrel has in fact often pointed backwards in some of these movements. If you do it right it is not like pointing exactly at you though. With enough training you can learn to not shoot yourself. I promise. And range safety sorta goes out the window when blood meat and teeth are flying.  

In short there are a lot of situations where you just may not have a bullet to send in to their chest. Seems like I have seen a few movies where they did that though, so I am sure it is a valid tactic and of course you learned that in your expensive course work.

Rifle use as a striking or stabbing tool is nothing new, but feel free to criticize it you seem to have a lot of applicable experience. We should probably tell the DoD that they are doing it wrong. DoD = fail Duke has pointed out the flaw in buttstroking.

I wonder if they don't train you guys buttstroking because in those courses you always have this liability issue that reduces the reality of training. We wouldn't want a lawyer out playing ahem training over the course of grueling 4 day training period getting hurt. I mean I do realize that the training courses are very real. I have seen pictures of the guys in full on combat kit. They certainly look serious with their cherub faces and soft hands and paunches pouches.

I mean can you imagine, there you are all tuckered out because you ran 20 feet, shot a few rounds and the instructor stopped you, cleared your weapon, wiped your brow and gave you an encouraging wink and said, go gettum tiger and had you engage someone with close in fighting techniques? I mean if nothing else you may scratch that rifle or get your fingers pinched and they'd have to shut down the range while they put tactical bacitracin and a operator bandaid on you.

Or maybe I am wrong and buttstroking is no longer a sound tactic because afterall when someone is trying to kill you the last thing you want to do is point your weapon backwards. Or scratch it. I mean afterall it does have bullets and we all know that close combat only happens because they feel like it and not due to other circumstances.

I mean proficiency gained at an expensive course and reliability aside, sometimes men in combat have had to beat each other to death with helmets and e tools.

Perhaps the next course you go to will have some training on the full use of a rifle as a weapon.  

All I was saying in a tongue in cheek sort of way is that I think rifles should be able to buttstroke people. I am sorry it has created such a fuss with you two gents.

I would all joking aside like to point out the comment about the Marines assaulting a fixed machinegun bunker is more than a bit insulting and they have in fact done it as has the Army because of things they don't teach you in those training courses. I know you may be a bit tweaked but your attempt to try and make Marines look stupid for pointing rifles at themselves and assaulting fixed positions is a bit over the line.

I am guessing you'll say that is not what you meant, but we both know.

I never had much interest in an AUG clone until today.

Quoted: I'm sure all these guys talking shit about your gun not being able to "butt stroke" anybody ALL HAVE BOYONETS ON THEIR RIFLES since they are so worried about what they will do when they run out of ammo. As far as I know, Duke isn't in/going in to combat anytime soon. And I'm sure he has plenty of rilfle that meet your "butt stroking" requirements. STFU.

Holy shit... another sister pissed at someone having an opinion. The comment was not about Duke or his post. NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT. Learn to read and learn context and stay off bandwagons. You look silly. Again for the retarded... That rifle is not MY bag and no it is not a rifle well suited for buttstroking and this commentary has zilch to do with HIM but the rifle. THAT is all I said. Take my opinion or leave it but stop finding an insult where there is none.

One more time sister. My post was about my opinion about a limitation that I see in a post about capabilities and limitations. Next time title these threads. I took pictures did a review everyone better like the rifle or else. Jesus.

I do think it is kinda cute all you boys coming to his rescue lol.

Quoted: Quoted: nice job but as I have said if you can't buttstroke someone nicely with it not my bag. And yes I realize you could technically buttstroke someone with it but... Well no not really.

Duke, I wouldn't worry too much about a guy from CA obsessed with "buttstroking"...

Simple fix...offer to "buttstroke" him in the chin with your new toy and when and if he comes to, ask him how "nice" it was.

This was a review of a gun...not of Marine CQB techniques.[/quote]

wow you are this close to not having your head up your ass. It is my opinion an hour ago that this rifle is not for me that is all I said.

And BTW tough guy. I'd love for you to try to buttstroke me. Watch the stupid shit you say. I am positive you are unable to back it up.

Quoted: You can't shoot for shit... You should have spent the money on a class instead of a MSAR. Maybe you were goofing around, but if I was going to post a review of a rifle, I would have atleast done my best to shoot a nice group. Fuck, if I shot that bad, I'd probably just put the target at 5' and shot the group. Goddamn. ..and who the fuck SBRs a fixed carry handle rifle. You can pay the $200 tax, but you can't buy a decent upper. Fail fail fail...

Why would you be stuck with a fixed carry handle rifle????

What kind of dumb ass on an AR15 board doesn't know that the receiver on an AR15 SBR is the registerd part....thus the $200 tax stamp does not keep you from putting any upper you want on the gun????

Pick your favorite upper in your favorite caliber and your good to go.

He just happened to pick this upper on his SBR for this write up.

Good thing you have time to bitch about the group size instead of reading the review.  Reading must not be your strong point...but you must be able to shoot one hell of a group

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Looks like it would make a great paddle if you were ever stuck up shits creek without one. Yeah, hehe.  But we would need an FS2000 on the other side of the canoe or it would just go around in big circles. www.impactguns.com/store/media/fn/FNH_CB_FS2000_Right.jpg ETA:.. I know for a fact that M-16/M-4 buffer tubes do not handle "buttstroking" too well. Kinda weak for that kinda use.

You know that for a fact? You can also tell DoD they have been doing it wrong. Just cause you know it for a fact

This is hilarious someone is not in love with rifle and it is taken as a personal insult. some of you gents need to grow up.

My initial post was a tongue in cheek response stating my opinion no harm no foul and suddenly the girls are all angry.

I am sorry the rifle is a perfect combat rifle. All military units should use it.

Thanks for the great review, I appreciate all the time and effort.

It's just too bad it was built by Tony Marfione. He has a long and varied history of fucking people over, from customers to co-workers. I'm sure this little firearms endeavour will end the same way.

It really is too bad. Microtech made some great knives in Vero, and can still make them today when they actually try. I just buy all mine used so none of my cash goes into Tony's pocket.

Either way, good luck with the MSAR. Better cross your fingers and hope like hell that history doesn't repeat itself in the parts/customer service/warranty departments with Microtech.



ETA: Some history and backstory here....
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=672954&page=2

Being a southpaw, i am seriously thinking about purchasing this firearm.  I save brass and it will be nice to be able to do so by using my mouth as a shell catcher!

Just kidding, good write up though.  Lots of good info here.

Quoted: Quoted: Very nice write up. +1 I am waiting for this one.

I can't wait for MCS.

Will the MCS be able to swap a bolt and barrel for a caliber change?  I'm wanting one in 9mm to partner my G19's with spare 45acp parts so as to complement my USP's.

Quoted: I can't wait for MCS. Will the MCS be able to swap a bolt and barrel for a caliber change?  I'm wanting one in 9mm to partner my G19's with spare 45acp parts so as to complement my USP's.

when is it coming out?

Very nice Duke

Quoted: Quoted: You can't shoot for shit... You should have spent the money on a class instead of a MSAR. Maybe you were goofing around, but if I was going to post a review of a rifle, I would have atleast done my best to shoot a nice group. Fuck, if I shot that bad, I'd probably just put the target at 5' and shot the group. Goddamn. ..and who the fuck SBRs a fixed carry handle rifle. You can pay the $200 tax, but you can't buy a decent upper. Fail fail fail... Why would you be stuck with a fixed carry handle rifle???? What kind of dumb ass on an AR15 board doesn't know that the receiver on an AR15 SBR is the registerd part....thus the $200 tax stamp does not keep you from putting any upper you want on the gun???? Pick your favorite upper in your favorite caliber and your good to go. He just happened to pick this upper on his SBR for this write up. Good thing you have time to bitch about the group size instead of reading the review.  Reading must not be your strong point...but you must be able to shoot one hell of a group

This guys orginal post just floors me.  I'll bet he shoots off a bench rest at a target at 25 yds, and tells everyone that he did it at 600 yds.

Hey Acid,

Why would you reply to a Thread with so little consideration?  Ok, let me say that another way.  Your reply to this thread was an obvious attack on the guy who spent a lot of time for others to benefit.  If you didn't see any benefit from it, then go away!  

It is my opinion that you shouldn't be allowed to post such BS.  Granted, that's just my opinion, but it is mine.

So now we're arguing about "buttstroking" with a bullpup rifle on Arfcom?  LMAO.  Internet commando-ism at its finest.

Quoted: Quoted: Very nice write up. +1 I am waiting for this one. www.msarinc.com/mcs1.jpg

Yep me too!

Quoted: So now we're arguing about "buttstroking" with a bullpup rifle on Arfcom?  LMAO.  Internet commando-ism at its finest.

Actually from my reading no we are not arguing about the ability to Buttstroke someone with a Bullpup, we are arguing whether or not the Buttstroke opinion is good or bad... Apparently the fact that the person who posted that it was his opinion believes he should have said opinion but no one else should have an opposing view point....


Besides all that Bullshit. And the "Poor Shooter" BS and Dukes Rebuttals which were not taken as constructive but as an attack... And Butt Hurt folks etc....

I think it is a Damned nice Writeup, and having actually held the thing (though I was not able to shoot it ) I think it is a fine weapon, a weapon in spirit as has been fielded by the Austrians, Australia, New Zealand and a few other militaries. I am not a HUGE fanboy of Bullpups, but I do believe if I ever did buy a bullpup design the AUG design would be the one. It is comfortable, maneuverable though there are a few drawbacks to it that the Bullpup fan tends to not mention and I won't because in the civilian world it just doesn't matter. But If I had to have one this would be it, the OD model with the integrated sight, an accessory rail mount like Duke's and likely the 20"

Classic AUG appearance. Wish it didn't have the FA.. But meh, I ignore the one on an M-16 and AR... Why not ignore this one! I do also agree with Duke on the Motorskills to operate the Charging Handle as opposed to the Bolt Stop...  The AUG operates somewhat like an HK-G3-33-MP5 in that you withdraw the bolt and lock it swap mags (they do not Drop free in typical European fashion) then smack the bolt handle or yank it back and let it fly... the bolt stop is not in a position that lends itself to a palm smack like the AR though you probably ought to use the CH on that one too.

Oh and Duke can shoot, probably outshoot a lot of folks here, he takes courses, he practices or at least gets to go shoot more than I do. He has a fixation with trigger jobs, but otherwise a really likeable dude. Hell he is my business partner!!!!
Don't take that lightly either!!! I would not partner up with just anyone! Choosing a business partner is not like choosing a woman!!! It is more like choosing a gun!
I realize these are NOT STEYR AUGs and are a US clone but These folks below use the Steyr or in the case of the Aussies the AUSteyr F88
Aussie

Austrian

Kiwi

Also used by the Spezialeinsatzkommando units of the German State Police.
Interesting that the Germans (Home of Hk) GSG-9 and the Special Commando units of the German State Police use Austrian weapons no? Can't seem to find a pic of these guys though

JagdKommando Austrian Special Operations Group.

Nice write up, I found it informative.  Does the original optical sight come with it?

Quoted: Nice write up, I found it informative.  Does the original optical sight come with it?

you can get one with the rail or the optic, your choice.  I have one with an eotech on it and i have the shorter optic rail, so it gets in the way of the charging handle, and im a lefty, other than that i like it.  Its had some teething issues however.  Runs fine now.

That was a really good write up, and I'm a personal fan of all things AUG - the Glock of the long arm world. I want to own a straight-pull version one day.

Don't let the in the thread discourage you from posting another O_P style write-up: I love 'em, no matter who writes them!

To the guy who said the OP can't shoot, let us see your groups firing a new weapon.

(On the buttstroking issue, I have handled issue Aussteyrs numerous times and I can assure you, they are NOT something you would want to get hit with, and as far as I could tell, perfectly capable of functioning after being used as a smacking implement )

ETA: Ol' Painless, with the OPs permission, of course, should put this on the Box O' Truth website. It's certainly worthy!

Great review.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: nice job but as I have said if you can't buttstroke someone nicely with it not my bag. And yes I realize you could technically buttstroke someone with it but... Well no not really. Duke, I wouldn't worry too much about a guy from CA obsessed with "buttstroking"... Simple fix...offer to "buttstroke" him in the chin with your new toy and when and if he comes to, ask him how "nice" it was. This was a review of a gun...not of Marine CQB techniques.[/quote] wow you are this close to not having your head up your ass. It is my opinion an hour ago that this rifle is not for me that is all I said. And BTW tough guy. I'd love for you to try to buttstroke me. Watch the stupid shit you say. I am positive you are unable to back it up.

Wow you sure do talk like the tough guy on the internew Hard as rocks.

holy shit, that's from Bradford?
little tiny town in PA, nice to see them making something in addition to Zippos

does an M4 buttstroke any better?
I doubt it

Cool write up!!

Quoted: Quoted: What makes any of you guys think a buttstroke from an M16 will be any more effective than a buttstroke from the MSAR? I would guess that both of them would suck to get bashed over the head with. Just my opinion. Hear, hear!  American hasn't fielded a rifle that is truly capable of butt-stroking an opponent, and living to function as a rifle afterwards, since the M1 was in service.

Try again... The M-14 was more than capable in that regard....

Quoted: Quoted: JagdKommando Austrian Special Operations Group. i30.photobucket.com/albums/c304/AFSOC/Jagkommando.jpg I wonder if that's one of them Famous Maker scopes on his AUG?

I would tend to think not... but you never know! As I understand it the Steyr AUG glass is all Swarovski including the original fixed optic.

Tag for tingiht

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: nice job but as I have said if you can't buttstroke someone nicely with it not my bag. And yes I realize you could technically buttstroke someone with it but... Well no not really. I have added a new criteria to any future rifle purchased... "Oh? It shoots 1/2 MOA? BUT....can you BUTT STROKE a fool with it?!" Great write up. Thanks for sharing. Were it lefty friendly I probably would have bought one by now. I have had a long held belief that a battle rifle should always be able to apply a dose of correction to someone's chin. I have .5 MOA precision bolt action rifles that could really buttstroke someone but I'd prefer to keep my zero on those. I just have never been in to those space age looking rifles just my personal taste though. *** To me*** a battle rifle is any rifle you'd keep next to you as a defensive of offensive firearm. So it is a pretty loose term for me.

If a fight actually got to the point of having to club somebody with the rifle I am sure that it would be just fine for beating the snot out of somebody.

Duke, a MOST EXCELLANT writeup!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: nice job but as I have said if you can't buttstroke someone nicely with it not my bag. And yes I realize you could technically buttstroke someone with it but... Well no not really. I have added a new criteria to any future rifle purchased... "Oh? It shoots 1/2 MOA? BUT....can you BUTT STROKE a fool with it?!" Great write up. Thanks for sharing. Were it lefty friendly I probably would have bought one by now. I have had a long held belief that a battle rifle should always be able to apply a dose of correction to someone's chin. I have .5 MOA precision bolt action rifles that could really buttstroke someone but I'd prefer to keep my zero on those. I just have never been in to those space age looking rifles just my personal taste though. *** To me*** a battle rifle is any rifle you'd keep next to you as a defensive of offensive firearm. So it is a pretty loose term for me.

Reader's Digest version:  I live in california, and since I can't have one, the one duke has is crap!

If you watched the Weaponology show where the covered the Spetznatz, the man that they interviewed showed some of the techniques used for the AK system which could probably be adapted to any rifle where your controls will be on the outboard side of the weapon

Watch how British soldiers play with the L85. For a very short rifle like a bullpup, the 'on the far side' technique actually makes a lot of sense.

NTM

Thanks for the great write up Duke-Nukem.
I'm saving up for one now, hopefully will have it by Christmas.

Bump to the top, because I need to show some pics to people in the armory section before it falls into the archives.

I don't like certain aspects of it:

Forward assist. Did the AUG have one like that?


MSAR magazines. Do you really think these will be available twenty years from now or is there an M16 magazine conversion?



RR

That looks fun as hell.  I've never shot a bullpup before but I've always loved the AUG design.

just got an acog for mine yesterday




the black spots on the carpet and chair are from the photbucket editor

Nice write up.  I got to handle one at my dealer a while back.  Very interesting design and pretty interesting to hold.  I wish I could fire one sometime, but I haven't seen anyone with one local around yet.

How crappy is the trigger pull- bad as the FSUCK2000?

it sucks but its easily fixed.  Well, alot better anyways.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thanks for the great write up. First time I've seen anything detailed about this rifle. Looks pretty cool. But, judging by the cheekweld, and the fact that I'm a Southpaw, I probably won't be in any hurry to get one. Again, thanks for taking the time to do it. I don't know if you can move the ejection port over, but if you can, there may be a fix for you.  If you watched the Weaponology show where the covered the Spetznatz, the man that they interviewed showed some of the techniques used for the AK system which could probably be adapted to any rifle where your controls will be on the outboard side of the weapon.  You still need to break cheek weld for mag changes though. I should have mentioned, the ejection port can be swapped over but a left-handed bolt is needed to do so.  The bolts are available but they are pricey.  Honestly if I was a lefty I would give serious consideration to the FS2000 which is very ambidextrous to begin with (even if it does feel like pointing a largemouth bass downrange). Oh, and a few things about my shooting ability. 1.  I'm a short, fat, athsmatic attorney, not a commando.  I know this. 2.  This was my second time shooting the MSAR, ever, and the ergos are quite different, I'm still getting used to them.  I didn't bring any mag pouches, so I flubbed the AR mag change as well when the magazine fell all the way into my pants pocket and had to be fished out.  Meh.  With both rifles the goal of the drills was to shoot as quickly as possible and still hit the target, as I would if I were actually engaging bad guys at close range.  I can and do shoot tighter groups, but not that quickly. 3.  Tennis elbow and a torn supinator muscle in my right arm really are hurting my shooting ability right now.  And its supposed to take up to a year to resolve, argh.  At least shooting rifles doesn't physically hurt like shooting pistols does.

DUKE,

You don't have to justify your shooting, you did fine.  

Screw anyone else judging you.  I have intructed many people in shooting and even after a couple of years, you shoot better than they do.

Do people miss? Yes

Do you have a dead bad guy?  Yes

You did fine and loved the videos.

Quoted: Quoted: What makes any of you guys think a buttstroke from an M16 will be any more effective than a buttstroke from the MSAR? I would guess that both of them would suck to get bashed over the head with. Just my opinion. Hear, hear!  American hasn't fielded a rifle that is truly capable of butt-stroking an opponent, and living to function as a rifle afterwards, since the M1 was in service.

M14 ! ftw!

great write up

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What makes any of you guys think a buttstroke from an M16 will be any more effective than a buttstroke from the MSAR? I would guess that both of them would suck to get bashed over the head with. Just my opinion. Hear, hear!  American hasn't fielded a rifle that is truly capable of butt-stroking an opponent, and living to function as a rifle afterwards, since the M1 was in service.   Try again... The M-14 was more than capable in that regard....

I agree, The M-14 is a Badass rifle all around.