User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 10/4/2014 11:06:52 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've seen some of his personal correspondence and that of other close to him (such as Colonel House) and it seems he really wanted to go to war, even though the American public did not. He also seems to have had a personal hatred for both Catholics and monarchies and two of the central powers were ruled by Catholic monarchies and thus especially drew his ire (which became clear at the end of the war and when the treaties ending it were made) and he was also an Anglophile. The Lusitania and Zimmerman telegram (as well as a couple of other incidents relating to Mexico) provided the excuse and something that could be used to turn popular opinion. They were rather flimsy for a casus belli, at least for retaliation to that degree (especially the Lusitania incident; IIRC she was carrying arms and supplies for the British, which made her a legitimate target), but it was enough for Wilson. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The war was heading towards a negotiated settlement before the U.S. joined the war. The German and Habsburg empires would have largely remained intact as a result, most likely. Not sure what effect that would have had on events in Russia, Assuming a peace along the lines of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, probably the Soviets would have been in control of Russia in the immediate aftermath. The Germans would have dominated the Baltics, Ukraine, and Poland, either directly or via puppet regimes. I can't see the German government allowing the Soviets to remain in power for long in the postwar period, though. The net result would have been German domination of Central Europe, and likely some sort of restored Russian monarchy. If the Germans had any sense they'd accept status quo ante in the West, but that assumes strategic sense not in evidence. Woodrow Wilson is one of history's greatest monsters. Wilson's re-election campaign slogan in 1916 was "He Kept Us Out of the War!" And where were we the next year? I've seen some of his personal correspondence and that of other close to him (such as Colonel House) and it seems he really wanted to go to war, even though the American public did not. He also seems to have had a personal hatred for both Catholics and monarchies and two of the central powers were ruled by Catholic monarchies and thus especially drew his ire (which became clear at the end of the war and when the treaties ending it were made) and he was also an Anglophile. The Lusitania and Zimmerman telegram (as well as a couple of other incidents relating to Mexico) provided the excuse and something that could be used to turn popular opinion. They were rather flimsy for a casus belli, at least for retaliation to that degree (especially the Lusitania incident; IIRC she was carrying arms and supplies for the British, which made her a legitimate target), but it was enough for Wilson. Wilson was a southern Democrat that hated the Union, hated blacks, hated Hispanics, hated Catholics, and believed in Slavery. He was a scumbag of the highest order.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2014 11:14:56 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Germans would have had a good shot at winning in 1918. The Russians had just exited the war, which freed up some German troops. The French army had widespread incidents of mutiny and desertion in the Spring of 1917, and was highly questionable as an offensive force. The German offensive in the Spring of 1918 was quite effective and could easily have led to a collapse of morale in the UK and French armies. Expanding this scenario, would Russia (still ripe for a Stalin-like regime) and Germany had started a war of their own, this time with UK, France and the others on Germany's side? Would Russia and Japan had formed the axis and the WW II still happened? |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2014 11:53:33 AM EDT
[#3]
You have to remember that Germany attacked our ships in both wars because we were supplying their enemies with war material. In other words it was our own damn fault for being interventionists.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2014 12:20:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Neither would communism in Russia. Lenin wouldn't of been snuck in by Germany. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Rise of Hitler and the Nazis would have probably not have happened. Let that bake your noodle for a bit.  Neither would communism in Russia. Lenin wouldn't of been snuck in by Germany. All you people who have written "of" where a "have" belongs... 
It'smaking my head hurt too much to seriously consider this thread. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2014 12:33:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All you people who have written "of" where a "have" belongs...
It'smaking my head hurt too much to seriously consider this thread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Rise of Hitler and the Nazis would have probably not have happened. Let that bake your noodle for a bit. Neither would communism in Russia. Lenin wouldn't of been snuck in by Germany. All you people who have written "of" where a "have" belongs...
It'smaking my head hurt too much to seriously consider this thread. Classic! Grammar Nazi has a grammar error! |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2014 12:47:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have to remember that Germany attacked our ships in both wars because we were supplying their enemies with war material. In other words it was our own damn fault for being interventionists.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2014 12:48:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
France and England owed us two billion dollars. If they lost we wouldn't have gotten paid. We were going to enter the war. Wilson would have found an excuse. Yep, there would have been a way found for us to enter the war. Wilson was a first class piece of shit. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2014 12:50:58 PM EDT
[#8]
No, it wasn't over when the Japanese sank our ships in WW1
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2014 12:54:07 PM EDT
[#9]
They might have just found a way to stop the war. Our entry assured Germany would collapse. And our so-called allies signed a peace treaty with Germany we would not have any part of, and it's terms brought about Hitler's opportunity.
Of course, peace doesn't lend itself to making an alternative history SF book sell... |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/4/2014 11:56:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That certainly is the popular view among those Americans who are actually conscious of WWI (sadly, quite a few are not). In the end I think it was the Austro-Hungarian Empire whose side had the most just cause. I like the following analogy for Americans: I recall reading the shock by ordinary citizens that other powers would side with murderers (which the Serbian regime certainly was; it came to power through murder of the previous dynasty). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The right side won because America doesn't fight on the wrong side. That certainly is the popular view among those Americans who are actually conscious of WWI (sadly, quite a few are not). In the end I think it was the Austro-Hungarian Empire whose side had the most just cause. I like the following analogy for Americans: The Austrian ultimatum that followed the assassination of the crown prince was harsh, but not excessively so. As an analogy, Americans must imagine what would have happened in 1914 if a Mexican secret organization, aided and trained by the Mexican Army and protected by the acting vice-president (provided such a rank existed), had murdered the vice-president of the United States in San Antonio or Miami, the name of that imaginary organization having been the annexation of Texas. The Serbs accepted the Austrian ultimatum except for its salient point: the request that Austrian plainclothes detectives be given permission to enter Serbia in order to continue their investigations. It might be argued that this was precisely what the Serbs could not allow--not because it conflicted with their dignity and sovereignty (as they claimed), but because too many things had to be covered up. Money and material promises might have loosened certain tongues. I recall reading the shock by ordinary citizens that other powers would side with murderers (which the Serbian regime certainly was; it came to power through murder of the previous dynasty). I actually would have sided with the Austro-Hungarian Empire in that issue. Hell, the Archduke was in favor of the Serbs. Serbia was the cause of the conflict and should have been held responsible but France wanted revenge for the Franco-Prussian War.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 12:41:41 AM EDT
[#11]
Research the Balfour Declaration and ask yourself why was it made at that time in the war.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 12:52:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have to remember that Germany attacked our ships in both wars because we were supplying their enemies with war material. In other words it was our own damn fault for being interventionists. How does the captain of a U-Boat know what is in the cargo hold of a merchant ship or that ship's destination before he fires the torpedo? |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 12:58:28 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't forget the Zimmerman Telegraph. That pissed us off too.... Dammit, George could never lay low.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 7:28:55 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How does the captain of a U-Boat know what is in the cargo hold of a merchant ship or that ship's destination before he fires the torpedo? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You have to remember that Germany attacked our ships in both wars because we were supplying their enemies with war material. In other words it was our own damn fault for being interventionists. How does the captain of a U-Boat know what is in the cargo hold of a merchant ship or that ship's destination before he fires the torpedo? Spies in the harbor that see or have access to the ship's (real) cargo declaration? E.g. Lusitania comes to mind. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 7:37:25 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Both sides were pretty well spent. As determined by the French's monitoring of the German's cables, Germany was anxious to end the fighting. I expect that eventually an accord would've been reached — most likely to Germany's detriment. This pretty much nails it. If the US hadn't entered the war Germany's defeat would not have been so thorough, and the Treaty of Versailles would have been much more gentle with them. This might have prevented Hitler's rise to power, and possibly WW2. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 7:52:21 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's possible, certainly. Then to further wonder, that without a communist Russia, and no WWII in the 40s, what happens to nuclear weapons & power, the Space Race, America as a world Super Power, etc... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Rise of Hitler and the Nazis would have probably not have happened. Let that bake your noodle for a bit. Neither would communism in Russia. Lenin wouldn't of been snuck in by Germany. It's possible, certainly. Then to further wonder, that without a communist Russia, and no WWII in the 40s, what happens to nuclear weapons & power, the Space Race, America as a world Super Power, etc... It's Genesis of the Daleks all over again  |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 8:02:37 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<tinfoil>Do you really think the Germans attacked us? Bush ordered us to sink that ship... </tinfoil> It was in England's best interest for us to enter the war. Much of the issues of today's world would be very different if we had not. Hard to say what would have ultimately happened - but our entry was probably directly responsible for the rise of Hitler and indirectly responsible for the chopping up of the middle east. IF we entered on their side. We were still not friendly towards England at that time and could quite possibly have entered on the side of the Central Powers (i.e. Germany) if we were going to enter at all. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 8:58:56 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IF we entered on their side. We were still not friendly towards England at that time and could quite possibly have entered on the side of the Central Powers (i.e. Germany) if we were going to enter at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: <tinfoil>Do you really think the Germans attacked us? Bush ordered us to sink that ship... </tinfoil> It was in England's best interest for us to enter the war. Much of the issues of today's world would be very different if we had not. Hard to say what would have ultimately happened - but our entry was probably directly responsible for the rise of Hitler and indirectly responsible for the chopping up of the middle east. IF we entered on their side. We were still not friendly towards England at that time and could quite possibly have entered on the side of the Central Powers (i.e. Germany) if we were going to enter at all. Meh, then we'd just have to kick all of your arses before heading home for tea and crumpets. Bring it on, bitches  |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 9:51:56 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Germans would have had a good shot at winning in 1918. The Russians had just exited the war, which freed up some German troops. The French army had widespread incidents of mutiny and desertion in the Spring of 1917, and was highly questionable as an offensive force. The German offensive in the Spring of 1918 was quite effective and could easily have led to a collapse of morale in the UK and French armies. This Operation Michael was a desperate attempt by the Germans to end the war before American manpower tips the scales the final time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 9:54:25 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thank Churchill for the Lustitania. Didn't know they had swingers' cruises back then. Kinky. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 9:57:02 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did America really play a big roll on the ground in WW1? We were only there from spring to fall of 1918. Yes. The threat of us troops force the Germans to launch cosy attacks in the spring and allowed the allies the overwhelming numerical advantage that was essential for the 100 Days Offensive. But yes, most US units didn't enter the fighting until late summer/fall of a war that ended in November. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 10:31:39 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's possible, certainly. Then to further wonder, that without a communist Russia, and no WWII in the 40s, what happens to nuclear weapons & power, the Space Race, America as a world Super Power, etc... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Rise of Hitler and the Nazis would have probably not have happened. Let that bake your noodle for a bit. Neither would communism in Russia. Lenin wouldn't of been snuck in by Germany. It's possible, certainly. Then to further wonder, that without a communist Russia, and no WWII in the 40s, what happens to nuclear weapons & power, the Space Race, America as a world Super Power, etc... |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
